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Transcript

Doctrine of Salvation (Part 14)

Transcript of William Lane Craig's Defenders 2 class.

We are talking about the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints which is sometimes known in popular piety as “eternal security.” The question we are asking is: can a genuinely regenerate Christian lose his salvation, or is it impossible for a person who has been saved to lose his salvation? Last time we looked at the Calvinistic perspective, or the Reformed perspective, on this question. We saw that according to Calvinism a person cannot lose his salvation. Once a person has been regenerated and declared righteous by God, that person can never fall away and therefore is eternally secure. If you see someone who, despite having been an ostensibly authentic Christian (someone who was active in the Christian church, in ministry even), who falls away from the faith, the Calvinist will say that person was really only a nominal Christian (a Christian in name only). That person wasn’t really a regenerate Christian. He is and always has been an unbeliever, an unregenerate person. He only appeared to be a Christian believer and therefore has not really fallen away from faith or lost salvation. He never had it to begin with.

Arminianism

Today we are going to look at a quite different perspective, which can be characterized as the Arminian perspective, on this question, after Jacob Arminius.

The Elect Are Corporately Secure

The Arminian maintains that it is possible for a person who is a born again Christian to lose his salvation and go to perdition. What the Arminian will typically say is that the elect of God are corporately secure. You will remember that when we talked about the doctrine of election, in contrast to the Calvinist the Arminian construes election as primarily corporate in nature and only secondarily individual. That is to say the primary subject or object of God’s election is a corporate body: a people, a church. It is that corporate group which is destined for sanctification, conformity to the image of Christ, and ultimately glorification and heaven. But it is up to the individual whether he wants to be a part of that elect corporate group or not. If you place your faith in Christ then you are part of that elect group and so in a secondary sense predestined and elect of God. The primary object of election is this corporate body and you by identifying yourself with it through faith in Christ become in a secondary sense elect or predestined.

Now, as such in line with that teaching, what the Arminian thinks is that this corporate group is going to persevere and will never fail to obtain its promises. The corporate group is secure in salvation. But, just as individuals will become members of the group by placing their faith in Christ, so they can fall away from the group by rejecting Christ; by apostatizing and ceasing to have faith in Christ and repudiating Christ they then are no longer members of this elect group and thereby forfeit their salvation.

On the corporate nature of election and security, look at Romans 8:33-39.[1] Here Paul says,

Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies; who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us? Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written,

“For thy sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The Arminian takes this to be a passage about the corporate body of the elect; that the elect are secure in God’s salvation and so these promises will never be abrogated. They are secure and safe.

The Individual’s Perseverance is Contingent

But the individual [inaudible] for salvation or perseverance is contingent.

Look, for example, at Romans 11:17-32. In this passage, Paul has a very interesting combination of what appears to be a corporate image and an individual image. He compares Israel to a cultivated olive tree which represents God’s elect. Then he thinks of individuals as branches that can be grafted onto this olive tree. The natural branches of this cultivated olive tree would be the Jewish people. Gentiles he compares to branches that have been taken off of a wild olive tree and then grafted into the cultivated olive tree and thereby they become heirs to all of the promises and the blessings that belong to Israel. The promises and the blessings are given to Israel (represented by this cultivated olive tree), but these branches cut off of wild olive trees are grafted into the trunk of the cultivated olive tree and therefore come to share in its blessings. Let’s read, with that in mind, Romans 11:17-32.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree, do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you. You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy. For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

What Paul seems to be saying here, the Arminian will say, is that this corporate tree (this tree representing God’s elect church) is composed both of Jews and Gentiles.[2] The Jews have in many cases been broken off – the branches were dead. Why? Because of their unbelief. Because of their unbelief these branches were stripped away and in their place believing Gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree to share its blessings. But he says that is no reason to be proud you Gentile believers because if you do not continue in faith then you too will be broken off just like those natural branches that were unbelieving were broken off. He says there is still hope that these natural branches might be grafted back in again. Indeed he thinks that in the future all of Israel will be saved. After the full number of Gentiles come in then Israel will turn back to Christ again and so be saved. So you see here a combination of a kind of corporate election and security that a person has insofar as he remains grafted into Christ. But if through unbelief one falls away then one will be broken off and have no security.

Let’s turn to our representative Arminian theologian Robert Shank whom I’ve quoted before in his book Elect in the Son to hear his take on this relationship between corporate election and individual contingency. He writes on page 49 of Elect in the Son,

The possibility of apostasy posits the corporate nature of the election.

The Scriptures bear witness to actual instances of apostasy and abound with solemn warnings against the peril, which (contrary to the assumptions of some) is real rather than hypothetical.[3]

Consider the following passages. Here are some Scriptures that Shank quotes. First he says consider these Scriptures showing God’s eternal purposes in grace. Ephesians 1:4, “He chose us in Christ that we should be holy and blameless before him.” Colossians 1:22, “He reconciled us to himself in Christ through his death to present us holy and blameless before him.” So Shank would interpret God’s eternal purpose in grace, this corporate election, is that he has chosen this corporate group to be holy and blameless before him. This is God’s eternal purpose in grace; this is his design to have a people peculiar to himself who will be holy and blameless before him.

This intention, or purpose of God, is fulfilled corporately. Consider Ephesians 5:27, “Christ will present the ekklesia [that is to say the church, the body of Christ], to Himself holy and blameless.” So God’s eternal purpose is fulfilled in the case of the church. The church will be presented by Christ holy and blameless before him.

But, Shank says, insofar as the individual believer is concerned, this is contingent upon his perseverance in the faith. Colossians 1:23 says, “He will present us holy and blameless before Him – if we continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.” In the case of the individual this salvation is conditional. It is contingent. God’s eternal purpose in grace that we should be holy and blameless before him will be fulfilled in individuals says Colossians 1:23 – “He will present us holy and blameless before Him – if we continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.”

Warnings Against Apostasy

So the Arminian takes these warnings in Scripture against committing apostasy very seriously and at face value.[4] It really is possible for regenerate Christians to fall away from Christ and so lose salvation. Let’s look again at some of those warnings and others that we considered last time.

First, these warnings, the Arminian will point out, are written to Christian believers. These persons to whom the warnings are addressed are not merely nominal Christians. These are not people who are in fact unsaved. These are Christian believers to whom these warnings are addressed. Look at the book of Hebrews for example. The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians who, under the threat of persecution, were tempted to renounce Christ and go back to Judaism. They were tempted to revert to Judaism to avoid the terrible persecution they were enduring. This leads the author of the book of Hebrews to issue these very stern warnings to them about doing such a thing.

Hebrews 3:1 describes his readers as “holy brethren who share in a heavenly call” and he invites them to consider Jesus “the apostle and high priest of our confession.” So he refers to them as holy brethren; he says they share in this heavenly call.

Look down at verse 6 of chapter 3. He says, “Christ was faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope.” Here he says that we are indwelt by Christ. We are the temple of Christ. He lives in us. We are his house. But he says this is the case only if we hold fast to our confidence and pride in our hope.

Look then at verses 12 to 14. He says,

Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

There it seems again clear he is writing to fellow Christian – brethren he calls them – and says that we share in Christ. But he warns them that we share in Christ only if we hold fast to the end.

Finally, turn over to Hebrews 10:32-36. Here he says,

But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to abuse and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. For you had compassion on the prisoners, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised.

Clearly this is a passage written to fellow Christians. He says that “you were enlightened” and then you endured affliction. He says “you knew that you had a better possession and an abiding possession” in heaven. So don’t throw this away; you need to endure.

So when we look at these warnings, the Arminian would say, these are warnings to us. These are warnings that are clearly given to regenerate Christians, not to people who are in fact unregenerate. When we read them in that light then it seems clear that they entail the real possibility of falling away from Christ and so losing salvation.[5] Look again at Hebrews 3:12-19. The author says,

Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end, while it is said,

“Today, when you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Who were they that heard and yet were rebellious? Was it not all those who left Egypt under the leadership of Moses? And with whom was he provoked forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they should never enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

Because of that he warns them to be sure that there is not an unbelieving heart within you, an evil, unbelieving heart that will lead you to fall away from God.

Turn over to Hebrews 6:1-8. He says,

Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, with instruction about ablutions, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

The Arminian will point out that this description is surely a description of a regenerate Christian. Notice what it says about this person who falls away. It says this is a person who has once been enlightened. This is the same word that is used in Hebrews 10:32 to describe the recipients of the book of Hebrews where he says, “But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings.” He is describing how they became Christians. So to say that they are enlightened or that this person has been enlightened is to say that this person has become a regenerate Christian.

It says that this person has “tasted” the heavenly gift and has “tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come.” When you think of the idiom of tasting, this doesn’t mean just sort of having a little sample but not really imbibing it. Look how the author uses the same word in Hebrews 2:9 to describe Christ’s death on our behalf. It says, “But we see Jesus . . . crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.” Now clearly, Christ, in tasting death, meant he died. He experienced death, not just that he sort of had a little sampling of it. He was dead. While that may be a peculiar idiom to taste death as an expression for dying, similarly to say that these people had tasted the goodness of the word of God, the powers of the age to come, and the heavenly gift, I think is to say they have imbibed salvation.

Notice also that it says they have become partakers of the Holy Spirit. Now, again, this same word is used in Hebrews 3:14. There he says, “For we share in Christ, [in the Greek, it is the same word – we are partakers in Christ] if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.” So to be a partaker in the Holy Spirit is like being a partaker in Christ – one shares in Christ, one shares in the Holy Spirit.[6] This is a description of a regenerate believer. So the description of the person here, I think, is clearly intended to be a description of a regenerate believer who then apostatizes and rejects Christ out of his life.

I think it has been rightly said that if the Reformed theologian is saying that this can be a description of someone who is not a regenerate Christian then none of us has assurance of salvation because how could you have any more potent a description of a Christian than this. If a person can be like this and not be saved, how can any of us have assurance that we are in fact elect and are saved? So paradoxically enough, by interpreting that passage to not be about regenerate Christians I think is to rob us of the assurance of our salvation that is rightly ours. It belongs to us as we share in Christ.

Finally, look over at Hebrews 10:26-31:

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth [I think he is talking about the sin of apostasy, of rejecting Christ], there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Notice here the person that is being described is someone who spurns Christ and thereby profanes Christ’s blood by which he was sanctified. This was a person who was sanctified by the blood of Christ. It says he has “outraged the Spirit of grace.” Remember we saw in Hebrews 6 that this is a person who was a partaker of the Holy Spirit. Now by rejecting Christ out of his life he outrages the Holy Spirit. This calls to mind the unpardonable sin – doesn’t it? – of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Christ said all sins shall be forgiven except for one, namely, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Could it be that apostasy is a form of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? It is to outrage the Spirit of grace by which we are sanctified by casting Christ out of one’s life. He says there is no more sacrifice for a person who has done that. He’s lost. There is no hope now for him. That would make sense of why blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would be unpardonable – because there remains no more sacrifice for such a sin.

If this is right, what you suddenly find when you read the New Testament is that it is filled with warnings like this. Maybe you never noticed them before until you begin to read them in this light. Look for example at 2 Peter 2:20-22.

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

What an incredible image here of the apostate person.[7] He says it would be better that they never, ever knew the way of salvation than having known it, having come to a knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to turn back from it. He compares them to a dog that eats its own vomit or a pig that is washed from the slop and then jumps back into it again and wallows in the mire. That is certainly a powerful image.

Look at John 15 which is the words of Jesus. John 15:1-6. This is the famous parable of the vine and the branches. Jesus says,

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

Here you have this same corporate image of the vine which is Christ’s people and then the individual branches. The branches that do not abide in the vine wither up and die and they are thrown away. They are burned; they are good for nothing. It is the branches that remain in the vine, attached to it, that bear fruit and abide in Christ the vine.

From what I’ve said, on an Arminian perspective it isn’t a matter of sort of slipping in and out of salvation by sin. Rather, we are talking here about this very, very serious sin of apostasy. That is to say someone who renounces Christ and rejects him out of his life and walks away from Christ in a very deliberate and conscious way. There are examples in Scripture of people who do this, and I’m sure we all know examples of Christians that we’ve known or even ministers that we’ve known who have done this in their own lives. So we are not talking here about slipping in and out of salvation by your daily living. We are talking here about whether or not it is possible to commit this very serious sin of apostasy.

When we see someone who is a backslidden Christian; that is to say, a Christian who isn’t living for Christ, he is not abiding in Christ, he’s walking according to the flesh, he is carnal as Paul would say in 1 Corinthians, we can’t know if that person is apostate or not. Only God knows his heart. We should always assume that he hasn’t crossed that line of no return and try to bring him back. Look at James 5:19-20. James says,

My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Here James is talking about one of the brethren – not a non-believer – who wanders away from the truth and then other Christians bring him back to faith. He says you will save his soul from death. He was on a slippery slide to perdition, and God managed through your ministry in his life to bring him back and to save his soul and cover a multitude of sins.[8] So don’t ever give up on a backslidden or apparently apostate Christian because we never really know. We only see the externals. I think in line with what James says, we should always assume that it is possible for that person to come back to Christ and so try to bring him back.

That would represent an Arminian perspective on this problem.

Discussion

Question: Is there any way that a person can become an apostate without realizing it themselves? Can they lose their salvation and not be aware of it?

Answer: I don’t think so. It says in Hebrews if we sin deliberately after coming to a knowledge of the truth. He is talking there about someone who he says spurns the Son of God. Imagine an early Jewish Christian who maybe has his goods looted and his family is beaten up. He’s tempted under persecution to renounce Christ and go back to Judaism. I think that is what he is talking about. A person who makes a deliberate, conscious decision to no longer follow Christ and have faith in him.

Question: So if a person had wickedness (they were very sinful in their lives) that wouldn’t necessarily accumulate to a point that they would go into apostasy.

Answer: I don’t think necessarily though I would say – and here the Calvinist will agree with me – a person like that has no assurance of salvation. Someone whose life shows no fruit in that way is like the person that James described who says “I have faith” but that faith is dead. Can that kind of faith save you? And remember James says, “No, that kind of faith is worthless.” So the person who says, “I went forward when I was eight years old in an evangelistic service and I made a commitment” but now he lives in utter indifference to God, both the Calvinist and the Arminian would say that person should tremble before God. He has no basis for confidence in his salvation. He may not be a Christian at all. But I don’t think that someone who is struggling to live the Christian life and who flounders and fails is going to necessarily accumulate enough sin to commit apostasy, though it could. It could happen. The author of Hebrews says, “Watch out lest there be in any of you this evil, unbelieving heart.” I don’t think that a person just decides to commit apostasy one day. It is going to be an accumulation – isn’t it? – of growing coldness of heart, maybe first thing you do is not go to church anymore, or maybe not pray. You don’t feel like praying anymore. Your prayer life dries up. You don’t read the Bible anymore. Little by little this sort of evil, unbelieving heart can creep in. So in that sense it could be a cumulative thing, the sort of slippery slope.

Question: I am not a Calvinist but I don’t believe you can lose your salvation. I see perseverance, like works, as being evidentiary of salvation but not determinative of it. Otherwise, we deserve some credit for it. I say, well, Christ died on the cross, he saved me, but I persevered, so I deserve some credit for my salvation which is of course proscribed by Ephesians 2:8-9. I would cite John 6:39 where it states that it is the will of the Father that Christ shall lose not even one (is what the Greek says) which speaks against the corporate idea. It says he will lose not even one; will present him to the Father and the last day. Now this seems to me like this is a fiduciary responsibility created here in which Christ, if he does not deliver in the last day all that the Father has given him, will be outside the will of God which I would see is impossible. Also Philippians 1:6 saying being confident of this that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Then in John 10:28 the famous “no one can snatch them out of my hand.” Well, if you can lose your salvation, I’d say Satan has snatched you out of his hand. Then you go to Jude 1 which it says the called are kept by Jesus Christ.[9] Now that is echoed in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 where Paul says “may your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless; the one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.” That is, keep you blameless. In other words, God is going to keep you from falling away is my interpretation of that. Finally, in the doxology in Jude 24, “Praise to him who is able to keep you from falling.” So to me these verses just make an overwhelming argument that once saved, always saved.

Answer: I think that is the question: are they overwhelming? Certainly there are texts that could be cited on both sides, and I cited some of those very texts when we looked at the Calvinist perspective last week. So the question is: where does the balance lie because there certainly is a tension here? It seems to me that the Arminian has a very, very powerful case that these warnings are real and do show the possibility of failing to persevere. Therefore it is certainly true that no one is able to snatch a person out of Christ’s hand, for example. But a person can, himself, jump out of Christ’s hand. He can leave himself by losing faith. Does this imply that he therefore merits his salvation? Well, no, because it is simply a matter of continuing to have faith in Christ and faith isn’t a meritorious work. Faith is the opposite of works. It is only insofar as we continue to believe in Christ that we have those promises that we can claim. When Christ says that “I shall lose none that the Father has given me” I think probably the Arminian would say ultimately speaking the apostate is not one of those who has been given to Christ. The apostate in the final story is not one of those. So, although there are certainly these passages on the other side, I guess I am sort of persuaded by the Arminian passages that we looked at today that these are so serious that we need to interpret the ones that you’ve cited in light of those and say, in the words of one of my Arminian friends, certainly I believe in the eternal security of the believer. The believer is eternally secure. The believer will not fall away. But if you cease to be a believer then you are not secure and you don’t have these promises to claim.

Followup: I’ve been through these passages, of course, over the years many times that you’ve presented in support of the Arminian view. I can rationalize every one of them by saying that that person was never saved to begin with. Perhaps the most serious of that was Hebrews 6 where, as you correctly pointed out, we are talking about saved people there. There’s no question about that. What I think we are not talking about is loss of salvation. I think what we are talking about is loss of the things that accompany salvation as listed in verse 9 down there. I think it says your works will be burned up. I don’t believe that is perdition; I just think it means you lose your reward from that standpoint.

Answer: OK. Well, let’s take a look at it. When you look at Hebrews 6 and 10 together it seems to me that there he is talking about a person who has now committed a sin for which there no longer remains any sacrifice and who will be subjected to God’s vengeance.

Followup: Notice verse 8 – he has an analogy of a land that produces thorns and thistles. As we said the land is not destroyed, the salvation is not lost, the fruit is destroyed. Notice in verse 9 he says even though we speak like this dear friends we have confidence of better things in your case, things that accompany salvation. That is the fruits, the rewards, of salvation. You have lost those rewards.

Answer: I don’t see verse 9 as relevant to the question of whether or not it is possible for these Hebrew believers to fall away which is what we are considering. Certainly this author has confidence that the people to whom he is writing are going to endure. They are going to head his warnings.[10] So he says I’m confident you are going to do alright. But the question would be: could they fall away? That is the issue.

Followup: I would just simply say that these people that supposedly fall away were never really saved.

Answer: Yeah, I know. That’s what we talked about last time. But here you did say you think it is talking about Christians but it is not talking about their ultimate destruction, just the burning up of their works.

Followup: No, just the loss of the things that accompany salvation.

We are out of time but we will continue this next time. We will take it up again. There is more to be said.[11]



[1] 4:44

[2] 10:30

[3] Robert Shank, Elect in the Son (Bloomington, MN: Bethany House Publishers, 1989), p. 49.

[4] 15:12

[5] 19:43

[6] 25:13

[7] 30:23

[8] 35:03

[9] 40:02

[10] 45:01

[11] Total Running Time: 46:01 (Copyright © 2014 William Lane Craig)