Author Topic: Is Dr Law now claiming victory in 2015?  (Read 3371 times)

LADZDAZL

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Is Dr Law now claiming victory in 2015?
« on: February 06, 2015, 07:52:27 PM »
Last month Dr Law posted on his blog claiming that Dr Craig had recently contradicted himself.  This is the gist of it:

In their 2011 debate Dr Law argued that we can exclude an all evil God because there is too much good stuff in the world.  If we can do that why can't we exclude a good God because of all the evil stuff.

Dr Craig rebutted this by saying that we cannot exclude an all evil God through observation:

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"The fact is that when we see an incidence of evil or suffering enter our lives, we are simply not in a position to say with any kind of confidence that God lacks morally sufficient reasons for permitting that to occur. We’re simply not in a position to make those kinds of judgments competently.
 
And, therefore, it’s simply impossible for the atheist to show that it’s improbable or impossible that God has morally sufficient reasons for permitting the evil and suffering in the world."...

..."I agree that you cannot disprove anti-God by just looking inductively at the good things in the world."
 
[quoting Wykstra] "‘Just as the inscrutable evil in the world doesn't give much evidence that there's no totally good creator, so the inscrutable good in the world doesn't give much evidence that there's no totally evil Creator’"

But when, in a recent podcast, Dr. Craig discusses Jim Holt's claim that the world looks as though it is created by an 100% evil God that is only 80% effective Dr Craig says:

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I must say, that seems to me to underestimate enormously what an 80 percent effective deity could do to make life miserable for us. I mean, for most people life is very good. Otherwise, we’d all commit suicide. But when people go through hard times, they typically look to the future with hope that things will get better. When you go through bad times, you will often find that some good things come out of it. Life, for most people, is worth living. That is just an undeniable fact of the matter. If there were a being that were really 100 percent malevolent, goodness sake, we have no idea what sort of a torture chamber or something we might be living in, even if he is only 80 percent effective.

Steven Law is claiming Dr Craig doesn't seem to fully believe his own position - that we can't exclude Evil God through observation.  Any thoughts?
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Thresh

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Re: Is Dr Law now claiming victory in 2015?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2015, 09:22:20 PM »
Quote
If there were a being that were really 100 percent malevolent, goodness sake, we have no idea what sort of a torture chamber or something we might be living in, even if he is only 80 percent effective.

To be technical, he does mention that "we have no idea what" the world "we might be living in" would look like. But I think he is giving an guesstimate that perhaps God isn't a 100% effective evil god because he personally thinks it would be a bit bleaker of a world. So yes, it may be a a contradiction, but I don't think it wins a debate that it wasn't made in and I think Law may be simply pointing out a single contradiction in Craig's reasoning.

I don't think it does anything for Law's evil God objection, but Craig may have to abandon one of his points. I personally don't think it is reasonable at all to think we could possibly expect to know what a 100% effective malevolent God's universe would look like at all.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 09:24:50 PM by Thresh »

faithfulearth

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Re: Is Dr Law now claiming victory in 2015?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2015, 02:21:51 AM »
Quote
If there were a being that were really 100 percent malevolent, goodness sake, we have no idea what sort of a torture chamber or something we might be living in, even if he is only 80 percent effective.

To be technical, he does mention that "we have no idea what" the world "we might be living in" would look like. But I think he is giving an guesstimate that perhaps God isn't a 100% effective evil god because he personally thinks it would be a bit bleaker of a world. So yes, it may be a a contradiction, but I don't think it wins a debate that it wasn't made in and I think Law may be simply pointing out a single contradiction in Craig's reasoning.

I don't think it does anything for Law's evil God objection, but Craig may have to abandon one of his points. I personally don't think it is reasonable at all to think we could possibly expect to know what a 100% effective malevolent God's universe would look like at all.

Yes: So yes, it may be a a contradiction slight if that or Dr Craig should be able to correct what he was trying to express before one can read into what is trying to be said. It hardly wins a debate 4 years on.

I think where Dr Law really loses the debate was during the Q & A - Indeed like Dr Craig said It's not enough to say "I don't know" you actually got deny the premises...

It sounds like Dr Law is dwelling on that moment all those years ago when he was laughed at. I've done similar with my regrets. I think Dr Law should accept defeat and move on. Tomorrow is another day learn from ones mistakes and preform better next time.

Either that or he is delusional and arrogant?

I watched the whole debate, I've seen much better against Dr Craig. I have always regarded Dr Law as one of the weakest Dr Craig has faced (not that I've seen them all but out of the many) as far as their performance.
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LADZDAZL

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Re: Is Dr Law now claiming victory in 2015?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2015, 04:20:00 PM »
Quote
If there were a being that were really 100 percent malevolent, goodness sake, we have no idea what sort of a torture chamber or something we might be living in, even if he is only 80 percent effective.

To be technical, he does mention that "we have no idea what" the world "we might be living in" would look like. But I think he is giving an guesstimate that perhaps God isn't a 100% effective evil god because he personally thinks it would be a bit bleaker of a world. So yes, it may be a a contradiction, but I don't think it wins a debate that it wasn't made in and I think Law may be simply pointing out a single contradiction in Craig's reasoning.

I don't think it does anything for Law's evil God objection, but Craig may have to abandon one of his points. I personally don't think it is reasonable at all to think we could possibly expect to know what a 100% effective malevolent God's universe would look like at all.

Yes: So yes, it may be a a contradiction slight if that or Dr Craig should be able to correct what he was trying to express before one can read into what is trying to be said. It hardly wins a debate 4 years on.

I think where Dr Law really loses the debate was during the Q & A - Indeed like Dr Craig said It's not enough to say "I don't know" you actually got deny the premises...

It sounds like Dr Law is dwelling on that moment all those years ago when he was laughed at. I've done similar with my regrets. I think Dr Law should accept defeat and move on. Tomorrow is another day learn from ones mistakes and preform better next time.

Either that or he is delusional and arrogant?

I watched the whole debate, I've seen much better against Dr Craig. I have always regarded Dr Law as one of the weakest Dr Craig has faced (not that I've seen them all but out of the many) as far as their performance.

I think the contradiction is more significant than you realise.  Partly because it is a good example of a common criticism of skeptical theism.  Namely that whilst apologists use skeptical theism as a convenient way to deal with the evidential problem of evil, it is not really possible to live your life as a skeptical theist.  In other words they don't believe the argument deep down.  Dr Craig seems to be providing a good example of this.

The second part of your post is answered here:

http://stephenlaw.blogspot.co.uk/2007/03/atheism-faith-positionhttpwww2bloggerco.html
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