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Messages - lapwing

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1531
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Question on lost faith
« on: April 05, 2014, 05:30:43 PM »
Jem,
I think you need to reread the parable and its explanation:

Quote
Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28“ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29“ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”

Quote

Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 37He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Darnel was a source of fuel in NT times.

Note that Jesus' explanation clearly equates the weeds with people; "the people (lit. sons) of the evil one"

Yet you say:
Quote
it isn't the people in the churches who are the weeds, it is the religions themselves
So you are 100% wrong on this. This is the root of your problem: you have exalted JW false doctrine above the Bible so you have to change what the Bible says to fit your doctrine. Yet the JWs claims to be faithful to the Bible. God is compassionate and will forgive you if you turn and repent of doing this.

Compare what you say:
Quote
The separating is being carried out by Jesus Christ, not the angels.
with what the Bible says:
Quote
the harvesters are angels ... The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
They=the angels.

Quote
It is Jesus Christ that we must all answer to.
I agree with this statement.

edit: The wheat and weeds are people but we cannot distinguish them so it is wrong for us to label any one group (Christendom, JWs etc) as weeds. However, one can label doctrine as false but it is not for us to judge/label people as weeds or wheat. If I have ever labelled the JWs as people as weeds then I withdraw it.

1532
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Miracle Healing In Israel
« on: April 05, 2014, 03:08:41 PM »
Quote from: Zero132132
Accepting something as miraculous is, at best, neutral, and at worst, a potential hindrance to medical science.

Why does it have to be either God or a natural process? This may be a false dichotomy. How is life so wonderful and varied? Evolution, sexual procreation etc. Why can't God be responsible for the "design" of this system?

1533
Quote from: CrashTest
You are forbidding gays to marry, gays are asking for permission to marry.
The Christian doctrine is that marriage is between a woman and a man and this applies to all humans not just Christians. So gays "marrying" is a contradiction according to Christian doctrine and supporting it means saying the Bible and Christian doctrine are not valid. The authorities don't come out and say that of course.

So it's not a matter of forbidding gay marriage because for a Christian there is no such thing as gay marriage. Hence the legislation for civil partnerships in the UK with equal legal and tax rights. For many people there is more to this issue than who can get married.

1534
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Miracle Healing In Israel
« on: April 05, 2014, 04:05:18 AM »
The problem is, cancer is still not properly understood and in rare cases, does go into spontaneous remission without treatment for unknown reasons.  For example ...

http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2010/bcr.07.2010.3147.full

It is also not known, of the many cancers that are treated, how many would have gone away if left ... and this is currently being investigated by medical professionals.  The placebo effect is also known to play a powerful part.

How do we know whether or not someone prayed for this person?

1535
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Question on lost faith
« on: April 04, 2014, 05:11:59 PM »
Jem,
Ok so if we don't want to call people in the church or Christendom Christians, let's use the label "people in Christendom". They are people Jem and by labelling them as weeds you are putting yourself in the position of a reaping angel. The Bible teaches that the angels have to wait for the harvest to separate them - but you are trying to separate them ahead of time contrary to God's word.

1536
I just came across this on another forum.  It's past my bedtime so I don't have time to think it through but i'd be interested in people's thoughts:

Quote
I believe Christ was crucified on a Wednesday and raised on a Saturday.

Matthew 28 is where it all begins.  Most English translations begin verse 1 of chapter 28 with "After the sabbath".  In fact, when you look into your Greek bibles, you see that it is plural.  "After the sabbaths".

Ι wouldn't personally want to put too much emphasis on that.  The word "sabbath" often seems to appear in a genitive plural (σαββατων) where you wouldn't normally expect it to--e.g., Luke 4.16, Acts 13.14.  That's not to rule the theory out.  But "after the sabbath" seems a perfectly reasonable translation.

I've read this as well. Note that I put up the article just to elicit views. Putting it up doesn't mean I believe it.

1537
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Question on lost faith
« on: April 04, 2014, 06:24:47 AM »
Quote from: Jem
Yes lapwing, the harvest time is upon us as we speak. This is "the time of the end" when the separating is being carried out. That initial growing period that Jesus spoke about happened centuries ago. It is now the time for identifying the weeds, who all look the same from God's perspective. It is the wheat who look completely different.
You've misread the parable and ignored the pictorial evidence I put up!

In the parable the reapers or slaves are angels not JWs or Christians. So when you say that Christians are weeds you are exceeding your position and acting as if you are a reaping angel: you are not that Jem are you?  ;)

Also they have to leave the weeds in place because they look too similar to the wheat. Yet you falsely claim to be able to distinguish them and label Christians as weeds. Abandon the false teaching of the JWs and read the Bible more carefully with an open mind.

1538
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Question on lost faith
« on: April 04, 2014, 06:12:13 AM »
Hey Will and Questions11,

I like you both a lot and have learnt a lot from both of you so I don't like to see you disagreeing in this manner. I guess I may end up attacked by both sides but isn't it true that this issue has been one of much debate for c2000 years so it's hardly surprising two Christians disagree.

I still maintain though that the answer is to think in the present: not rely on the past or worry about the future - and I have well known support for that from the Sermon on the Mount and elsewhere "take no thought for tomorrow".

"If you believe" present tense. So if I were to ask you both if you are trusting in Christ now you would both answer yes - right. Do you want to obey him and live the Christian life of service and discipleship - yes again isn't it? Well keep on keeping on in that vein and you will be saved - do you agree?

1539
ericbwonder,

Thanks for explaining what you meant by "it fails".

Yom Kippur=Day of Atonement
You're right that Leviticus 16:29-31, 23:24-32,39 relate to this festival of the 7th month (Sep/Oct) and not the Passover (1st month). However, Passover does have extra days of rest:

The Lord’s Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. 6On the fifteenth day of that month the Lord’s Festival of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast. 7On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. 8For seven days present a food offering to the Lord. And on the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.’  Lev 23:5-8 NIV

Here the festival of unleavened bread begins on the 15th day of the month but Ex 12:18 states that unleavened bread is eaten from the evening of the 14th day. 18In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twenty-first day. The Jewish Encyclopaedia cites the 15th day.

The Passover lamb is to be killed and eaten at twilight on the 14th day of the month:
Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. 7Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. 8That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast Ex 12:6-8 NIV

In Mark 14:12 we read that the disciples prepare to eat the Passover on the "1st day of Unleavened Bread".

Jesus was taken prisoner the same evening and crucified the following day. He was buried in the evening of that day: the day of Preparation or day before the Sabbath (Mk 15:42). In Jn 18:28 we read that the Jews holding Jesus did not enter Pilate's HQ to avoid ritual defilement so that they could eat the Passover. In Jn 19:14 the day of crucifixion is described as the day of preparation for the Passover. In 19:31 the sabbath for which this was the day of preparation is described as "a day of great solemnity" since it coincides with the 1st day of Passover according to John.

In Mark 16:1 we read the women bought spices when the "sabbath" was over. In Lk 23:56 we read they prepared spices but one can first buy and then prepare spices.

So one key issue is whether the normal weekly Sabbath coincided with the Passover "sabbath" or not.
Another issue I've come across is how the day is delineated: sunrise to sunrise or sunset to sunset:

Quote
Second, there is also the reckoning from sunrise to sunrise. Both Zeitlin56 and De Vaux57 conclude that the Jews reckoned from morning to morning before the exile and evening to evening after the exile, but the passages listed above would argue the validity of this. However, there are some indications that they reckoned from sunrise to sunrise. There are references of the day listed before night (Gen 1:14, 16, 18; 8:22; 31:40; Num 14:14; 2 Sam 21:10; 1 Kings 8:59; Neh 1:6; 4:9; Luke 18:7; Acts 9:24; Rev 4:8; etc.). Also when referring to “the same day” or “the next day,” it has reference to the night being of the first day and not the beginning of a new day (cf. Gen 19:34; 1 Sam 19:11; Acts 4:3; 20:7–11; 23:32; etc.).58 The one passage in the New Testament that may more explicitly indicate a sunrise to sunrise reckoning is Matthew 28:1 where it states that the women came to the tomb “late on the Sabbath as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week.” Thus the new day began with sunrise. However, as Beckwith points out, this could be translated “after the Sabbath day, as it began to dawn on the first day of the week.”59 Regarding the Passover, one can also see a sunrise to sunrise reckoning in Deuteronomy 16:4 where it states nothing which is sacrificed on the evening of the first day shall remain overnight until morning. In conclusion, one sees that both reckonings were used even by some authors within the same book.

But what about the Passover of Jesus’ day? As indicated above, the Passover could be reckoned from sunset to sunset or sunrise to sunrise. Generally, it is thought it was reckoned from sunset to sunset. Yet Josephus who was a Pharisee living in Jesus’ day, in explaining the law of the Passover, states that the Paschal lamb must be eaten during the night with nothing left for the morning.60 This seems to indicate a sunrise to sunrise reckoning. The Mishnah states that the Passover lamb must be eaten by midnight61 which would seem to indicate that the new day began after sunset, namely, at sunrise.

It is thought by several since there were two systems of reckoning the day present in Jesus’ day, this would be a solution to the disagreement between the synoptics and John. It is thought that the Galileans used a different method of reckoning the Passover than the Judeans. The Galileans and Pharisees used the sunrise to sunrise reckoning whereas the Judeans and Sadducees used the sunset to sunset reckoning.62 Thus, according to the synoptics, the Last Supper was a Passover meal. Since the day is to be reckoned from sunrise, the Galileans, and with them Jesus and His disciples, had the Paschal lamb slaughtered in the late afternoon of Thursday, Nisan 14, and later that evening they ate the Passover with the unleavened bread.63 On the other hand, the Judean Jews who reckoned from sunset to sunset would slay the lamb on Friday afternoon which marked the end of Nisan 14 and ate the Passover lamb with the unleavened bread that night which had become Nisan 15. Thus, Jesus had consumed the Passover meal when His enemies, who had not as yet had the Passover, arrested Him. This gives good sense to John 18:28 that the Jews did not want to enter the Praetorium so as not to be defiled since later that day they would slay the victims for those who reckoned from sunset to sunset. After Jesus’ trial, He was crucified when the Paschal lambs were slain in the temple precincts. This fits well with the Gospel of John. It can be charted as shown on page 261.

This solution would mean that there were two days of slaughter. This would solve the problem of having to slaughter all of the lambs for all of those participants at the Passover season.

There are two problems with this theory. First is the problem of having two consecutive days of slaughtering Paschal lambs. Would the Sadducees allow this since they were in control of the temple? It is possible they had to. It is known that with the popular support the Pharisees had, the Sadducees would submit to their wishes at times.64 Finkle states that “the Pharisees determined the dates of the great festivals.”65 Here may be a case in point where neither parties compromised and so two days of Passover slaughter. The second problem with the theory is that there is no explicit statement to support the theory. Although one cannot be overly dogmatic, it does fit well with the data at hand. It is simple and makes good sense.
from Bibliotheca Sacra 131:523 (Jul 1974)

Note that I'm just collecting thoughts together not putting forward a fait accompli theory. Also I'm not using confrontational language such as "spin" or "completely confused" (rather it was a mistaken reference).

1540
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Non believers love darkness?
« on: April 03, 2014, 04:52:54 PM »
Hi Emuse,

Are we at cross purposes? Needing a leap of faith stems from not knowing. But not knowing doesn't necessarily mean do nothing.

1541
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: 100% Guarantee
« on: April 03, 2014, 04:48:56 PM »
An outlier can still be explained by a naturalist as just being due to natural forces. Quite a few of Jesus' miracles could be described this way do you think?
Like what?

NB: I don't agree with what a naturalist would say but what about casting out demons - could've been an epileptic fit a naturalist (not me) would say.

1542
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Non believers love darkness?
« on: April 03, 2014, 09:34:21 AM »
Quote from: GRWelsh
contrary to what you say, I do think it is possible to shift attitudes and beliefs through persuasive writing and argument.
I probably expressed myself badly then since I didn't mean to imply that it is not possible for people to " shift attitudes and beliefs through persuasive writing and argument". However, I don't see anyone proving or disproving God's existence - so in the end one needs to make a "leap of faith" decision and that's what I mean by personal preference.

Btw there is at least one day in the calendar when your expression of shifting belief is not to be trusted!  ;D

1543
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Non believers love darkness?
« on: April 03, 2014, 04:26:07 AM »
Quote from: Emuse
Not everyone on here believes this.
Yes I agree. I was thinking more about WLC and the website as a whole. I'm not a great student of WLC but I didn't think he was universalist.

Quote
because our preferences have no bearing on what is true.
So are you confident you can know/prove that God exists? I don't think so and hence I think the decision about God boils down to personal preference. It's only a reluctance to own up to our intellectual shortcomings (all people) that prevents us admitting this.

1544
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Non believers love darkness?
« on: April 03, 2014, 03:33:17 AM »
Thanks for all the posts.

Quote from: Prismatic
Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions have been closing all windows within the prison of their holy texts to deal with their existential fears.

This seems to chime in with the last sentence of:

Quote from: soth
The only downside is that I feel most theists really don't understand how atheists think. They misunderstand our arguments most of the time, which can be frustrating. I am sure theists feel the same way about atheists though

I've learnt more about the motivation of  some-atheists-on-this-forum from this thread.

Prismatic I've used your quote above in a new thread called Misunderstandings.


1545
Choose Your Own Topic / Misunderstandings
« on: April 03, 2014, 03:32:38 AM »
I've just been prompted by a remark by soth:

Quote
The only downside is that I feel most theists really don't understand how atheists think. They misunderstand our arguments most of the time, which can be frustrating. I am sure theists feel the same way about atheists though

So I thought I'd set up a thread where atheists and theists can list/describe such misunderstandings encountered here or elsewhere with a view to resolving them.

To kick off:
Quote from: Prismatic
Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions have been closing all windows within the prison of their holy texts to deal with their existential fears.
I've found Christianity liberating and it gives me a deeper truer understanding of life.

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