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Messages - lapwing

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1531
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: For AnimatedDirt. Why Trump?
« on: March 24, 2016, 08:07:24 PM »
The hadiths give biographical information about Muhammad: what he did and thought.
The Koran is not supposed to be the thoughts of chairman Mo but God's message to Mohammad.
The hadiths are not commentaries on the Koran: not in the verse by verse sense. The hadiths were not written to tell you what each verse of the Koran is supposed to mean.

edit: for instance where in the hadiths do you get analysis of the meanings of individual verses of the Koran in the manner you have here: http://www.muslim.org/english-quran/quran.htm

1532
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: For AnimatedDirt. Why Trump?
« on: March 24, 2016, 07:20:04 PM »
TheCross,

Quote from: wikipedia
Hadith (/ˈhædɪθ/[1] or /hɑːˈdiːθ/;[2] Arabic: حديث‎ ḥadīṯ, plural: أحاديث, ʼaḥādīṯ[3]) is a report describing the words, actions, or habits of the Prophet Muhammad.[3] The term comes from the Arabic meaning "report", "account" or "narrative". Hadith are second only to the Quran in developing Islamic jurisprudence,[4] and regarded as important tools for understanding the Quran and commentaries (tafsir) on it. Many important elements of traditional Islam, such as the five salat prayers, are mentioned in hadith but not the Quran.

The hadiths are biographical narratives of the life of Muhammad. They are not commentaries on the Koran but their biographical information provides some contextual background.

Note that the above says that hadiths are:
" tools for understanding the Quran and commentaries (tafsir) on it (i.e. the Quran)"

They are tools for understanding commentaries on the Koran but are not themselves commentaries on the Koran. You don't go to the hadiths to look for commentary on particular verses of the Koran but to determine, for instance, when particular surahs were written

1533
It's a pity you are refusing to answer the question and thus clarify what the OP was supposed to mean, Pragmatic.

This thread has not yet been locked.

1534
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: For AnimatedDirt. Why Trump?
« on: March 24, 2016, 04:09:44 PM »
TheCross,

Bukhari is a hadith, not a commentary on the Koran. Christians tend to use more modern commentaries on the Bible. Hardly anyone uses the commentaries of the Church Fathers except to study that period.

If the Koran commentaries I've cited are so unorthodox in Islam then please provide some examples from those commentaries.

Quote
Why is the qur'an not allowed to speak for itself using this law, but Lapwing and the moderate muslims are allowed to abrogate their understanding of islam to suit their agenda?
This is logically incoherent. You seem to be saying that because of abrogation (which applies to the Koran not my opinions) I'm not allowed to hold a different opinion from you!

Quote
since you dont know the language about the texts
This website provides word for word textual analysis: http://corpus.quran.com

If you really want to discuss taqiyya I suggest you start another thread but put the work in first, following GtG's good advice. And since you're talking about Muslim belief and behaviour, the first place you should go to is good quality Muslim commentaries on the Koran, not shallow context free anti-Islam websites.

Given the aggressive nature of your last post (simply because I disagree with you!) your "happy easter" wasn't genuine was it!

1535
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: For AnimatedDirt. Why Trump?
« on: March 24, 2016, 09:06:28 AM »
Quote from: GotTheGift
I choose to educate myself before I come to any judgements.
This forum would be a lot better if others followed your example!

1536
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: For AnimatedDirt. Why Trump?
« on: March 24, 2016, 09:02:07 AM »
Quote from: TheCross
you seem to believe that the five pillars of islam makes you immune to be a closet muslim or even an impossibility.
Yes that is what I think. You don't have to be baptized (preferably as an adult) to be a Christian since being a Christian is all about an inward change. But if we transferred across how Islam views being a Muslim to Christianity then that would mean Christians have to be baptized publicly to be Christians, so you can't then have closet=secret Christians.

Quote
while a muslim has a specific doctrin that teaches him to lie and decive if it makes the islamic faith prosper.
Is that what anti-Islam websites say or what Muslims believe?

Quote
a worldview millions of people have suffered from, and continues to suffer from
Islam is a false religion, but then so are Judaism (denies Christ outright), Hinduism, Mormonism, Buddhism, Sikhism, JWism, ... odd there are  hardly any such comments about these false religions.

Quote
That verse describes TAQIYYA within marriage!!!.
It's about vows of abstinence! Try reading the context rather than just accepting religionofpeace without question.

Quote
where you quote 1 tiny thing from a huge post, or question my ambitions because i copy paste..
I don't see why I should have to sort out what's relevant and what isn't in what you post, when all you've done is copy and paste from an anti-Islam website. If you have a point to make, make it. Don't expect me to read your mind to work out what it is and make it for you.

Quote
How about you comment about the other verses?
How about you do some proper exegesis of your own first. So look at what Muslim commentaries say (you don't have to accept what they say but you can glean facts about context and word meanings). Look at the surrounding verses and what the topic of the passage is. Why should I do all the work here?

And as I've said I don't see that taqiyya is particularly relevant. The early Christians used secret symbols and were often forced to meet in secret. Does that mean they were closet Christians?

1537
Quote from: Pragmatic
I really don't know why you expect me to summarize the thing for you.
Because you started this thread with an OP that was not properly explained.

Quote
I have. It's directly entailed by the fact that the other two responses for the question specifically state either that the Bible is the literal word of God, or that it is inspired by God.
Please stop wriggling and answer the question.

Why do you think the statement: "The Bible is an ancient book of fables, legends, history, and moral precepts recorded by men,” necessarily means the Bible is not inspired by God (or is the Word of God).

1538
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: For AnimatedDirt. Why Trump?
« on: March 24, 2016, 06:11:08 AM »
Is that it TheCross?

Quote
The context of this remark is marriage

So what's that got to do with the concept of a closet or private Muslim? Did you actually read what you cut and pasted? Couldn't you have thought about it first and eliminated the irrelevancies? Of course not since that would have meant doing some real work!

Oh and don't bother to go to an actual Muslim website to find out what actual Muslims think about this!

Would you go to a Muslim website to find out the difference between a nominal and born again Christian? I don't think so. Sorry your weak shot didn't get half way up the net'

As I say above this reference to taqiyya is a descent into semantics and sophistry. You need to engage with the point I have made about the public nature of the 5 Pillars of Islam if you want this conversation to continue.

If you want to talk about taqiyya then you ought to start another thread but I suggest you look at both Christian Muslim sources rather than relying on thereligionofpeace.com which has an obvious agenda against Islam.

1539
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: For AnimatedDirt. Why Trump?
« on: March 24, 2016, 05:50:52 AM »
Iranian deals? there are other players involved in that deal - are they all Muslim too?

Actually Islam is clear about who is a Muslim and who isn't - the 5 Pillars of Islam. If Obama hasn't done any of those (and they are all public actions) then he isn't a Muslim by definition.


So, the 5 Pillars must be performed in public for one to be Muslim? What about the concept of taqiyya for deceiving non-Muslims to advance Islam? Is this idea not capable of being carried out if the 5 Pillars are not completed?

(I don't think Obama is Muslim, btw,  just curious about what you posted.)

Sorry for not replying to this GtG. I didn't see the relevance of the point you were trying to make but forgot to respond.

No one has denied that the the 5 Pillars are public acts or activities. So given what makes a Muslim a Muslim are public acts/activities, as opposed to the inward change of a born again Christian, then my point is that you can't have a closet=private=secret Muslim since it is a contradiction in terms

No one is engaging with this point and what is happening in this thread is a descent into semantics and sophistry in order to score points: points that are worthless of course.

1540
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Brussels terrorist attack
« on: March 23, 2016, 05:20:22 PM »
While I don't think that we should give into hysteria, making concerns about "Islamophobia" the focus is misguided.  Like it or not, the people who committed this attack were Muslims.  The Western world needs to balance defending its people from terrorist minded Muslims while leaving peaceful Muslims alone.


1541
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Brussels terrorist attack
« on: March 23, 2016, 05:12:51 PM »
Lapwing: "Spew out extreme right wing Islamophobic bile"

Again, please cut and paste what you consider to be extreme right wing islamophobic bile that was used in this thread.   I'm interested.

Gordy has just provided an example in #24.

You're blaming post #24 for your post #18?

I'm guessing that means you were basing your accusation of "right wing islamophobic bile" you had read earlier in the thread on absolutely nothing, then. 

Cool.

Well if you reread your own question you can see I answered it. If you want examples pre #18 look at Gordy's posts pre #18 (Hint: he was being inappropriately sarcastic in some of them)

Actually what do you think of #24?

And are you trying for nitpick of the year award because you are this year's winner so far?

and what's your opinion of this:

Quote
The socialist sycophant governments in Europe imported this problem, and are costing many innocent lives. Muslim terrorists aren't the problem, they'll do what they have always done. The socialists that opened the door to the terrorists are the total traitors and enemies of Europe.

that came before #18

1542
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: For AnimatedDirt. Why Trump?
« on: March 23, 2016, 04:12:20 PM »
It's being given more than one meaning in this context.

1543
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: For AnimatedDirt. Why Trump?
« on: March 23, 2016, 02:46:22 PM »
This article is about a Muslim who doesn't broadcast his faith for fear of persecution. My point is that the means by which someone is a Muslim are public acts (that don't include evangelism). That is the point you need to address

One does not need to ACT a certain way in public in order to be a closet Muslim or anything...hence the term "closet" which conveys hiddenness and therefore a fake front.

You are refusing to think about the 5 Pillars of Islam which I have already described.

1544
Quote from: Pragmatic
which yes, I copied from a source referencing the article rather than the article itself
Why didn't you clarify this when I first asked the question.

You still haven't explained why you think the statement: "The Bible is an ancient book of fables,
legends, history, and moral precepts recorded by men,” necessarily means the Bible is not inspired by God (or is the Word of God).

Neither have you provided a proper summary of the original article.

1545
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Brussels terrorist attack
« on: March 23, 2016, 12:08:05 PM »
Lapwing: "Spew out extreme right wing Islamophobic bile"

Again, please cut and paste what you consider to be extreme right wing islamophobic bile that was used in this thread.   I'm interested.

Gordy has just provided an example in #24.

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