Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - lapwing

Pages: 1 ... 101 102 [103] 104 105 ... 306
1531
Emuse,

1. How do you know the "we" in 1 Cor 15:51 refers to all Christians down the ages rather than just the recipients of the letter and Paul? Paul has been talking generically about the dead. I could write a private post onto this forum and talk about all Christians down the ages as "we".

2. If only the Father knows the time of the second coming how can Paul assume it will come in their lifetime?

1532
Y U NO love thy neighbour,

I still don't know from your posts whether you consider the reported words of Jesus in the Bible more important or more inspired than the rest of the Bible? What do you think about that?

I still haven't seen any response to:

We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 1 Jn 5:20

or

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. Jn 1:18

Note it is the part in bold that is relevant to the question of Jesus' deity.

You are right that there are incidence in the OT where people did see God and live: Moses and the elders in Ex 24:

Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

In Jn 1:18 the evangelist means seeing God in all his glory. In fact this is a reason Jesus came to earth - so that men could see God and God could reveal Himself to men:

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

So paraphrasing, how can you say
Quote
provide one verse where Jesus said he was God.
Not where his disciples thought he was God himself, where Jesus actually said he was God.
Just one verse where Jesus said "I am God almighty"
when in fact you can simply check this out with a Bible search tool such as Biblehub.

The fact that Jesus is not recorded as saying the exact words you prescribe doesn't prove he isn't God does it?
We only have a small selection of what Jesus said so we can't say that Jesus never said "I am God" in those exact words - only that they are not recorded in the New Testament. What kind of a God do you want? A swaggering braggart like Muhammad Ali/Cassius Clay who kept on shouting "I am the greatest" (though he was a great boxer of course) or a humble God who washed his disciples' feet? Who would you rather spend eternity with? Do we have recorded that Buddha ever said "I am Buddha" or Muhammad said "I am Muhammad" in the Koran?

Are you saying that "He is the true God and eternal life" doesn't count because these aren't the reported words of Jesus though they are in the inspired NT (inspired by God that is).

Quote
The word became flesh, that can simply mean the word of God became flesh in the body of Jesus.
and it goes on to say that the son, came from the father, not that he is the father.
This is incorrect since the verse reads: The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. not the word became flesh and dwelt in Jesus

1533
Quote
I did discuss all your verses except for one
I quoted 4 verses. You responded to two. That leaves two, not one, without any response. There are other passages I could have quoted of course.

Quote
If Jesus is God, how come he said he would be sitting next to him in heaven?
Why did he speak of him in the third person?
Where did he ever claim to be be God?
How come he said that no man comes to the father except through him?
How come he said that only the father knows the time or day and he didn't even know?
If he is God, then who was he praying to?
These questions show a refusal to understand that the doctrine of the Trinity means 3 distinct persons with different roles. Understanding that deals with 1,2,5,6. Your 3nd question is defeated by verses which prove that Jesus is God. The whole of the Bible is inspired not just the reported words of Jesus. If the Apostle John says it it's good enough for me and should be for you. If you don't believe that the Bible is inspired by God, why ask questions like the above which are predicated on its contents. Your 4th question is a strong argument that Jesus is God, not the opposite.

Are you still saying Jn 1:1 isn't about Jesus when verse 14 says

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
 
Who is meant by "the Word" here? Check verse 9 as well.

1534
Quote
John 1.1 has nothing to do with argument, it isn't even about Jesus
"The word became flesh and dwelt among us full of grace and truth" Who does that refer to.

Quote
Equality does not mean the same person.
According to doctrine of the Trinity: Jesus and the Father are distinct persons.

Quote
he told them over and over that he was not.
When did Jesus say "I am not God"?

Quote
Plus, if he was God, how could he say that no man knows the hour or day, not even him?
How could he say that no one comes to the father except through him?
How could he say he would be sitting beside God in Heaven if he is God?
All this proves you are making human assumptions about God that the Bible does not bear out. Read the Bible don't rely on your own thinking.

What about the other verses I quoted? Don't they count?

1535
Quote from: wilsunphi
Sorry din't see this . I think this answers your question.
All I see is an unsubstantiated statement made by you.

1536
Jem,

You didn't even bother to look up the eye for an eye passage in Deuteronomy first then?

Quote
16If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse someone of a crime, 17the two people involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the Lord before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. 18The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against a fellow Israelite, 19then do to the false witness as that witness intended to do to the other party. You must purge the evil from among you. 20The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. 21Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

So actually I agree with you here. What on earth has an "eye for an eye" got to do with atoning for Adam's sin? Why did you write nonsense like?:

Quote from: Jem
God's law of "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and a life for a life" meant that the sacrifice of a sinless life was required to atone for the sinless life that Adam forfeited for his children

Quote
Jesus was fully God and fully man.
Fully man:
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Fully God:
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 1 Jn 5:20

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Jn 1:1

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; Phil 2:6

Where the Greek word translated as "very nature" means "the whole set of characteristics which makes something what it its"

1537
Quote
Jesus discusses that he will be sitting next to God, so that tells me he is not God.

Y U N O lovethyneighbor

This is only the case if you assume the Trinity is impossible. if Jesus is not God how do you explain:

We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 1 Jn 5:20

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Jn 1:1

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; Phil 2:6

Where the Greek word translated as "very nature" means "the whole set of characteristics which makes something what it its"

1538
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: John 1:1 – But what about John 1:1?
« on: September 01, 2014, 04:57:36 AM »
Jem,

Quote
Was the God of Jesus not also his Father?
Jesus addressed His Father as His Father on many occasions.

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Why didn't Jesus simply say "our Father and our God"? Because His relationship to the Father was unique and different from other humans even though he was fully human. Why would that be Jem? This verse confirms the deity of the Father: it is affirmed by Jesus. But that does not deny the deity of Jesus unless through prejudice you assume that the Father and Jesus cannot both be God.

And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 1 Jn 5:20

The grammar indicates that "He" refers to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life.
Compare with:
The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us 1 Jn 1:2
"Eternal life" and "life" in 1 John refer to Jesus Christ.

You wrote:
Quote
If Jesus said that worship is to be directed to the Father "alone", then to do otherwise is plain disobedience. (Luke 4:8; Ex 20:3; Deut 10:20)

So is it semantics (meanings of symbols and words) to say there is a significant difference between:

1. Jesus addressing God as His Father
2. Jesus allegedly saying that worship is to be directed to the Father "alone", when  in fact he said this of "the Lord your God" quoting the OT i.e. Yahweh_Elohim

Rather than using ad hominem smokescreen tactics, Jem, how about answering the questions I've asked.

1539
Quote from: Jem
God's law of "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and a life for a life" meant that the sacrifice of a sinless life was required to atone for the sinless life that Adam forfeited for his children
This has nothing to do with atonement for sin. The principle is to do with judicial punishment for bearing false witness (Dt 19:15-21)

Quote
When Jesus died, he actually died, otherwise the immortal nature of God would have meant that death was impossible. Immortals cannot die
Jesus was fully God and fully man.

1540
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: John 1:1 – But what about John 1:1?
« on: August 31, 2014, 05:59:13 PM »
Jem,

You've misunderstood what I wrote.

Recap:
In #33 you wrote:
Quote
If Jesus said that worship is to be directed to the Father "alone", then to do otherwise is plain disobedience. (Luke 4:8; Ex 20:3; Deut 10:20)
Note that you didn't say "Yahweh alone" or "God alone" but "the Father alone". Now what is the Greek for Father in the NT: Πατὴρ or pater hence English words like paternal.

Now let's look at Lk 4:8
καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ Γέγραπται Προσκυνήσεις Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις.
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’
Is the Greek word for "father" in Lk 4:8 Jem? Please answer yes or no.

Jesus is quoting Dt 6:13:
Fear the Lord (Yahweh) your God (Elohim), serve him only and take your oaths in his name
Again does the word "father" appear in Dt 6:13? Please answer yes or no.

You have assumed that Father (Greek NT) is identically equal to the Lord your God (OT Hebrew Yahweh/Elohim).
Where does the Bible say that Jem?

1541
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: John 1:1 – But what about John 1:1?
« on: August 31, 2014, 04:17:58 PM »
Hi jbejon=James

Thanks for taking the trouble over this. I've just bought a book by Pratico/Van Pelt so I will try to work through what you've written with that as an aid.

lapwing

Having just worked through some of the book I'm wondering, if YHWH is causative then why isn't there a He prefix for the Hiphil stem So there would be a ה  prefix to get HYHWH?

1542
There's also a healing incident when Jesus asks the father how long his child "has been like this".
I don't think Jesus (while on earth) understood General Relativity or Quantum Mechanics either.

This all stems from a false western view of greatness as in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9CeC3yrcG4 Ali may have been the greatest boxer but not the greatest human.

1543
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: John 1:1 – But what about John 1:1?
« on: August 31, 2014, 11:15:41 AM »
If Jesus said that worship is to be directed to the Father "alone", then to do otherwise is plain disobedience. (Luke 4:8; Ex 20:3; Deut 10:20)

Yes, if he would have said that but he didn't.

Correct veka; the Hebrew of Dt 6:13 which Jesus quotes is Yahweh, Elohim and the Greek is kyrios, theos. +1

1544
Quote from: wilsunphi
Also please do some research on the trinities in other cultures - Babylonian, Greek, Egyptian, Indian etc. The current concept of trinity is an external influence and definitely not a Jewish one
What is the evidence that such other "trinities" influenced Nicea?

and thanks Lightfoot. I didn't know that about echad & yachid. +1

1545
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: What is your favourite Trinitarian passage?
« on: August 31, 2014, 07:54:45 AM »
Aaron,

Isn't there a difference between:

Jesus: "Destroy this temple and I will raise it in 3 days."
and
false witnesses: "'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days"

1. In the first quotation Jesus is talking about his own body. We are told this 2 verses later: (Jn 2:21)
"But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken."

2. The false witnesses are talking about Herod's temple. Mark gives us an extra detail that makes this explicit:
"We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.'"

Also Jesus' "destroy" is an implied conditional "if you destroy then ..." whereas the false witnesses ascribe to Jesus a promise or threat to destroy the physical temple building "I will destroy".

The false witnesses did not report what Jesus said accurately.

Quote
he says he is one the Right hand side of the mighty one. 
This does not contradict the doctrine of the Trinity which states clearly that the Son is not the Father. Neither does it preclude Jesus from being Almighty.

Pages: 1 ... 101 102 [103] 104 105 ... 306