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Messages - lapwing

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Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Article on biblical semantics
« on: November 16, 2014, 10:29:15 AM »
Hi jbejon,

It seems you know more about this than I do. I was hoping someone would help me understand this stuff but maybe I'm expecting too much.

The article mentions T Boman's Hebrew Thought Compared with Greek which I assume puts forward the idea of significant differences between those languages. Kittel's theological dictionary invariably includes a section of the usage of a word in classical Greek at the beginning of each word section. So I think the idea of "Greek thought" comes from the words used (e.g. logos) rather than the writers. However, Barr and Thiselton are arguing against this.

Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Article on biblical semantics
« on: November 15, 2014, 06:29:00 PM »
jbejon I got from section 1:

1. When interpreting texts we can over-emphasise the importance of the meanings of individual words in contrast to longer "speech-acts" in context.

2. Language structure is largely independent of individual languages or nations (so criticising the idea that Greek and Hebrew thought are radically different)

3. Reading a text too literally according to grammatical rules can miss the meaning e.g. Judas' imperative to rejoice when betraying Jesus is a greeting not a command. This idea can affect how best to translate the Bible.

4. A sentence is greater than the sum of its parts (words).

Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Another Leg in A Life Journey
« on: November 15, 2014, 12:13:27 PM »
Wonderful news JFS!

Sometimes the simple message is best:

God is so good,
God is so good,
God is so good,
He’s so good to me!

He cares for me,
He cares for me,
He cares for me,
He’s so good to me!

I love Him so,
I love Him so,
I love Him so,
He’s so good to me!

I praise His Name,
I praise His Name,
I praise His Name,
He’s so good to me!

Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Article on biblical semantics
« on: November 15, 2014, 11:50:40 AM »
Hi Brett,

I haven't read Barr either. I'm reading a book by Thiselton on Hermeneutics and I've just read a section on Barr so wanted to find out more. Barr also wrote "Fundamentalism" in which he contended against inerrancy.

Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Being Baptized with the Holy Spirit
« on: November 15, 2014, 09:13:11 AM »
Hi troyjs,

No I hadn't thought of "fully" in Rom 15:19 meaning full gospel meaning you need signs and wonders to preach the gospel fully. "Fulfilled" works since Paul fulfilled the OT by bringing the gospel "fully" to the Gentiles.

However, Paul is definitely saying here there is more to preaching the gospel than words ("said and done") and at least part of the "doing" of the gospel is "signs and wonders" (cf. Acts 5:12, 2 Cor 12:12, Heb 2:4).

I'm not convinced "continuationism" is a valid concept. Why single out charismata? If you're going to say there's nothing in the Bible that says believers will continue to receive spiritual gifts, then there is nothing in the Bible that says that there should still be elders and deacons in churches etc.

You live in Brisbane then Snoochies?

Choose Your Own Topic / Article on biblical semantics
« on: November 14, 2014, 05:31:06 PM »
We are often told (and say?) that biblical Hebrew is more "concrete" than NT Greek. Is this really the case?

James Barr wrote about this in The Semantics of Biblical Language and there's an article on this subject by Thiselton:

I'd be interested to hear what you think about this. The article is quite long so you may want to read just the first 2/3 sections and the last one to get the gist.

Choose Your Own Topic / Re: What is the point of prayer?
« on: November 14, 2014, 05:16:09 PM »
A good place to start when thinking about prayer is the Lord's Prayer:


Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

We should not be afraid of asking God for things ("you have not for you ask not") but notice how only one request here is about personal needs. The rest is about God and His Kingdom, our relationship with God and our related Christian walk.

Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Being Baptized with the Holy Spirit
« on: November 14, 2014, 02:31:05 PM »

Sign Gift

"Sign" can mean "distinguishing mark" which can also (but not always) signify divine authority: Judas' kiss is described as a "sign" to those who arrested Jesus. John described Jesus' miracles (or works) as signs - they testify that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the living God.

It is evident that Paul did not consider preaching the only means to bring people to Christ:

I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— 19by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ. Rom 15:18,19

I can only think of the 1 Cor 14 passage that describes gifts as signs. It's not an easy passage:

In the Law it is written: “With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” [fn]
22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

The OT passage quoted is from Isaiah 28. Isaiah's opponents (rival prophets?) are criticizing his message to the people as so simple that they reject it: it is an "alien tongue" to them. Here, tongues are described as a "sign" to unbelievers as they will think those speaking in unintelligible tongues as mad (cf. Pentecost) whereas prophecy is a sign to believers since prophecy is an intelligible message from God.

The "difficulty" of the passage is that prophecy has a distinct effect on unbelievers even though it is tongues that are described as a "sign" to unbelievers and prophecy is a sign to believers. NB: prophecy is definitely not the same as a particularly powerful sermon. It could be that, as Paul is discouraging the practice of speaking in tongues uninterpreted in a meeting, the construct is rhetorical - tongues are a sign to unbelievers but the wrong kind of sign - prophecy is preferred and effective.

the OT references to spiritual gifts were about the inauguration of the Kingdom of God,
If this is a cessationist argument then it is unclear since at what point does the "inauguration" cease? In fact why have spiritual gifts at all since Jesus did a pretty good job at "inaugurating" the kingdom of God. Charismata have another function in the church: "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good."

Are they given as normative aspects of church worship?
It is not just the Corinthians who exercised spiritual gifts.

What was the role of spiritual gifts in the OT, and if there is a difference between the OT and the NT in this regard, what is the basis for that difference?
It's not at all clear they should be the same e.g. circumcision is not practiced in the church. The church is not just a later version of the people of Israel: there are differences. Most relevant OT references are prophecies of the NT age.

What was the attitude of the apostles toward the importance of spiritual gifts?
Paul's attitude was evidently positive: they are to be used appropriately.

Did they consider them as something God wants all believers to enjoy, from Pentecost onward?
God gives gifts sovereignly to believers as He chooses. There is no time limit specified in the NT.

Are they given as signs indicating the new Kingdom of God?
They are also given for the "common good".

Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Praying for vengeance?
« on: November 14, 2014, 12:50:56 PM »
Here's another case of justice not being done:

The Cavalese cable car disaster of 1998, also called the Strage del Cermis ("Massacre at Cermis") occurred on February 3, 1998, near the Italian town of Cavalese, a ski resort in the Dolomites some 40 km (25 mi) northeast of Trento. Twenty people died when a United States Marine Corps EA-6B Prowler aircraft while flying too low, against regulations, in order for the pilots to "have fun" and "take videos of the scenery", cut a cable supporting a gondola of an aerial tramway, causing the death of the aforementioned 20 people. Joseph Schweitzer, one of the two American pilots, in 2012 finally confessed that upon return to the American base he burned the tape that would have allowed for the truth about how they clipped the cables to come out.[1] The pilot, Captain Richard J. Ashby, and his navigator, were put on trial in the United States and were found not guilty of involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide. Later they were found guilty of obstruction of justice and conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman for having destroyed a videotape recorded from the plane and were dismissed from the Marine Corps. The disaster, and the subsequent acquittal of the pilots, strained relations between the United States and Italy.[2]

Choose Your Own Topic / Re: The Biggest News EVER!
« on: November 13, 2014, 11:11:08 AM »
Hope all goes well.
Your lives will change!

Choose Your Own Topic / Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma
« on: November 13, 2014, 11:08:33 AM »
If one believes that man is made in the image of God and by God, then doesn't that remove any idea of "coincidence" in this matter?

Choose Your Own Topic / Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma
« on: November 13, 2014, 10:50:59 AM »

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