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Messages - lapwing

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1531
Quote from: Snoochies
My thinking is that these healings are for those who don't believe or new in faith.
In the letter of James we are told that the sick should call the elders to pray for them and anoint them with oil.

What I really want to know is why JFS thinks I'm charismatic?!

I go to a middle of the road Anglican church (liturgy, choir etc) and  a Reformed baptist church with cessationist views

1532
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Argument regarding the Trinity and Identity
« on: October 26, 2015, 03:42:40 PM »
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What kind of logic is there other than human logic?? 
I'm human so I can only describe the logic that humans know. What I am saying is that we might not know it all when it comes to logic.

"this is logic Jim but not as we know it". Logic in the sense of how to understand the three-in-oneness of the Holy Trinity.

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It must be the case that The Father is not God, and The Son is not God, and the HS is not God, however the combination of the 3 somehow is God ? right ?
There are well rehearsed scriptural arguments that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not every one on this forum agrees but nearly all Christian statements of faith are Trinitarian (all if you define Christianity in a particular way).
Why must it be the case?

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Again, if Jesus could manifest himself as something while the other persons in the trinity did not manifest themselves as the same thing, then clearly they are distinct from each other as one can do something apart from the others
I'm  not convinced this spatial "apart from" argument applies to the triune God. Jesus was, to us, physically separate. However, God (the Father, Son and Hoy Spirit) is not physical but spiritual. Jesus emptied Himself and took on physical form but he was still both God and man - not just man.

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Only Jesus truly knows what it is like to live as a human and be tortured to death, right ?  That is something that The Father cannot possibly know personally.  This would imply that as individual persons, the Trinity cannot be omniscient, which means the individual persons of the trinity cannot be God.  It seems then, that God must be what the combination of the persons is called, which seems really strange to me.
I think there is a fallacy here.

O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it


Yet it is I, not God, that thinks my own thoughts, and in your words "truly knows" what it is to be me,
So you are really saying that if God gives us free will and so the ability to think our own thoughts, then God is not omniscient. Reductio ad absurdam

1533
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Old Testament: Not for the faint-hearted.
« on: October 26, 2015, 06:57:14 AM »
You're ignoring the fact that the "big bad wolf" gently cares for its cubs.

1534
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Argument regarding the Trinity and Identity
« on: October 26, 2015, 06:54:05 AM »
Johan,

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you must grant that each person can manifest apart from the others
Jesus was manifest to the world as a man (having "emptied Himself") but that doesn't mean he was separate from God. I'm saying this argument of the 3 persons being maximally great (or not) is only valid if they are  thought of as 3 separate gods, which they are not.

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Are you saying there is more to logic than we currently know ?
I'm saying that human logic may not be sufficient to understand the nature of God.

1535
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Old Testament: Not for the faint-hearted.
« on: October 26, 2015, 04:53:53 AM »
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Babies have sin?
Have you ever brought up a baby? The Bible story we're discussing is about David's sin. Even so there are some scriptures that indicate all humans suffer from the effects of original sin from birth:


12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.


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I don't believe in a god sorry.
This is the standard ruse used by non believers to cover up the fact that when they criticise God they are actually criticising a narrow aspect of God that they have chosen - so really a narrow god of their own making, and not God as He actually is. So I repeat my question:

Are you grateful to God for the life He has given you?

Why can't you answer a question like the above yet say

"I don't think [God] killing babies can be justified."?

You're being intellectually inconsistent, jakswan.

And actually why just "babies" - every life is precious.

1536
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Argument regarding the Trinity and Identity
« on: October 26, 2015, 04:35:53 AM »
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Yes, of course they are separate, are they not ?
No because that would mean three separate Gods and tritheism. There's a difference between being three distinct "persons" in the one God, and being three separate Gods.

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Firstly, there is just logic, and not "human logic". 
Since our knowledge is really only human knowledge, how do you know this to be the case?

1537
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Argument regarding the Trinity and Identity
« on: October 25, 2015, 05:07:26 PM »
Johan, note my earlier comment:
Quote from: lapwing
Can one determine the nature of God purely through such metaphysical/logical speculations - separating the doctrine of the Trinity from its source in the Bible i.e. in the record of God's dealings with man?

So when you say
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Because if God is the only maximally great being, then a person that makes up God cannot be maximally great on their own, they can only be maximally great as part of God.

You're omitting to say according to how I apply the human concept of "maximally great" to my model of the Trinity.

Note that you also say "on their own" which indicates that you still think the three "persons" (not the same concept as human persons) are separate, or separable. The doctrine of the Trinity is not tritheistic as your view would imply. Do you reject the idea that human logic may not be fully applicable to God and the Trinity?

1538
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Old Testament: Not for the faint-hearted.
« on: October 25, 2015, 04:44:54 PM »
jakswan,

So it's not just this particular baby but all babies that die young - is that right?
Isn't this the Problem of Pain often referred to under the heading of theodicy. There are many threads (and books etc) on this subject.

But the basic answer that God is sovereign and sin cannot go unpunished still holds of course.

I note that you show no gratitude to God for granting you life etc.

You cannot take one aspect of God that you don't like and disregard the rest. Rather than criticizing God you are criticizing your own partial view of God.

Are you grateful to God for the life he has given you?

Note that you can't say to that "well I don't really believe in God anyway". That's not the issue. The issue is you are criticizing a narrow partial view of God of your own choosing.

So jakswan: are you grateful to God for the life he has given you?


1539
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Argument regarding the Trinity and Identity
« on: October 25, 2015, 12:44:31 PM »
Can one determine the nature of God purely through such metaphysical/logical speculations - separating the doctrine of the Trinity from its source in the Bible i.e. in the record  of God's dealings with man?

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Faith is a reasonable rather than rational act and necessarily involves a drive to better understand what is believed: meaning, grounds for truth, evaluation of its moral value and practical implications. The early Christians faced the fact of their Jewish monotheism (Dt 6:4) together with their experience of the divinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This was not for them (and us) a mathematical conundrum or a metaphysical puzzle of one is three and three is one. Rather, early Christians sought to account for the distinct ways the one God was experienced in their own lives and salvation history – as three different personal entities but one God.

This was not done using Greek metaphysical speculation but Jewish narrative. The Father, Son and Holy Spirt are not referred to yet as “persons”. The early church was concerned with the “economic” Trinity (relationships to and activity on behalf of mankind) rather than the immanent or transcendental Trinity (their eternal mutual relationships). Later Greek and Latin expressions and ways of thought were used to formulate a more technical terminology and conceptual apparatus to distinguish the three persons (who they are) and their nature (what they are). But these concepts were not used to express new ideas about God but to better describe what the early Christians had already experienced and come to know.
Notes made from the Cambridge Companion to the Trinity

The Christian doctrine is that there is one God and in terms of the OP this one God is maximally great.

So in:

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There can only be 1 being that is maximally great.
The Son and The Father [and the Holy Spirit] are both all maximally great.
my italics

we seem to have moved from one God in three persons to three separate Gods which is not the Trinity.
I see no reason why the Father, Son and Holy Spirit cannot all be maximally great since God consists of these three distinct, but not separate, "persons" (NB: not human persons).

1540
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Old Testament: Not for the faint-hearted.
« on: October 25, 2015, 10:35:08 AM »
Your thoughts on 2 Samuel 12.14 would be appreciated, this is where god appears to kill a baby to punish the father.

We owe our lives to God rather than God owing us life.

1541
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Do We Have an Immortal Soul?
« on: October 25, 2015, 09:47:03 AM »
Quote from: Jem
Was Jesus in heaven on that day?
The scriptures you quoted don't explain what happened to Jesus when he committed his spirit into his Father's hands (as Stephen did when he was martyred).
It's quite possible that Jesus' spirit went immediately into God's presence on death and returned to his body at his resurrection. This is compatible with "not yet returned to the Father". It may be that his spirit ascended to heaven and then descended to the lower regions to preach to the imprisoned spirits there:

(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions ? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.

18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19After being made alive he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

1542
Choose Your Own Topic / Re: Do We Have an Immortal Soul?
« on: October 24, 2015, 07:35:34 PM »
And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Was Stephen wrong to think he had a spirit that would survive his physical death and be received by Jesus?

Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
How can anyone be "away from the body" unless they possess a soul/spirit that can live outside the body?

1543
great news Paterfamilia!

1544
Quote from: keegclw
The obvious question I've long had is why didn't Jesus or God perform miracles in those other towns if it would have helped them repent?

Not every one gets the same life chances. People don't live for the same length of time (so we should thank God for every day granted to us), not everyone lives in a place and culture where Bibles and Christian literature are available and the gospel is preached etc. All have sinned and God doesn't owe us any extra revelation over and above the general revelation in creation.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Rom 1:20

However, it's not coincidence that the cities Jesus says would find it more bearable are Gentile cities. Jesus is making the case that the Jews are wasting the extra privileges they have by being God's chosen people, when they reject Him and his message.

This is a sobering message for the non believers on this forum most of whom who no doubt have the privilege of having heard the gospel and having access to the Bible, yet still reject Jesus and his message of hope.

1545
Noted Snooch. God be with you and your friend.

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