Reasonable Faith Forums

Archived => Craig vs Krauss => Topic started by: John Leonard on April 06, 2011, 06:44:09 pm

Title: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: John Leonard on April 06, 2011, 06:44:09 pm

I was ASTOUNDED at Krauss' disrespect for logic and philosophy. Doesn't he realize that science itself cannot be done without certain philosophy based presuppositions? There is no science without logic and philosophy. Does he not contradict himself when, on one hand, he says that an unknown within science will eventually be resolved by a good explanation, yet on the other hand, explanationless contradictions and accidents happen all the time IN REALITY and hence we must just 'deal with it'? But then, he embraced contradictions. I don't think his hero Richard Feynman would.

- sinclairjd

It seems that a number of Krauss apologists are saying that everybody misinterpreted the way Krauss was talking about in that 2+2=5. And they say he never denied classical logic. At least, both of these claims have been bombarding my comment section in my youtube videos (and the Internet). Hopefully, this will set them straight:

Title: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: brent arnesen on April 25, 2011, 02:50:23 pm
"For very large values of 2."  Do you guys just try to embarrass yourselves?  The WLC cult is a very strange one.

Title: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: Patrick Casanova on April 29, 2011, 12:41:33 pm
ooberman wrote: "For very large values of 2."  Do you guys just try to embarrass yourselves?  The WLC cult is a very strange one.



"Very large values of 2" wouldn't be 2.

2.5 + 2.5 does equal 5, but 2.5 is not the same as 2.

Of course, Krauss would agree with what I just said (I think). My point is that Krauss' equation was used specifically to challenge "classical logic". In that case Krauss was misusing a joke about rounding and estimating. Classical logic would say that 2.5 + 2.5 could never equal 10. If Krauss says that 2.5 + 2.5 can add up to 10 "for extremely large values of 2.5", then he is no longer talking about 2.5.

Again, just to be crystal clear, Krauss was saying that his "extremely large values of 2" statement illustrated that classical logic is often wrong. He himself was mistaken on that point. But perhaps he meant that only as a comedic illustration not to be taken seriously. Perhaps Krauss has real examples where classical logic fails. If so, I should point out that he didn't mention any example(s) during the debate, at least none that I can recall.
Title: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: Ian Smithers on April 30, 2011, 04:44:43 am
ooberman wrote: "For very large values of 2."  Do you guys just try to embarrass yourselves?  The WLC cult is a very strange one.
I tend to agree with this, I can't recall what the specific point LK was making, but irrespective of that, it seems like people have latched on to this, and are just running with it blindly now.
Title: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: Patrick Casanova on April 30, 2011, 09:39:25 am

Digitalos wrote:
Quote from: ooberman
"For very large values of 2."  Do you guys just try to embarrass yourselves?  The WLC cult is a very strange one.
I tend to agree with this, I can't recall what the specific point LK was making, but irrespective of that, it seems like people have latched on to this, and are just running with it blindly now.


Yes, I agree that we shouldn't make a big deal out of it. Everybody is entitled to occasionally say something strange or stupid. I often say stupid things myself.
Title: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: Uwaysi Bin Kareem on January 26, 2012, 05:24:18 am
These people have always been nuts. Equally large values of 2, and random oscillations, that would be white noise in the real world, is the universe in their world.

It seems that when absurd statements are made, absurd statements follow aswell.

Such as "changing morality", etc. They don`t seem to know humanity, logic or even sense.

Monotheists of all religions should join forces, and make a coalition formed on common values, such as non-promiscuity, non-homophilia, non-intoxicants, non-idolaterous media (and retarded advertisements) etc.

The sharia zones are very interesting, and I am a muslim myself. But maybe we could extend that to, "monozones", for all monotheists that truly would have these values. So we can have a place where human nature is not defiled, and live in peace, without provocative idolaterous elements. And ultimately show the world that living in decency is great, and our art would be great. Possibly shining a light, from a place of light, to a world in ignorance.

Peace!

Title: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: Patrick Casanova on January 27, 2012, 01:20:16 am
Infinite_Consciousness wrote: These people have always been nuts. Equally large values of 2, and random oscillations, that would be white noise in the real world, is the universe in their world.

It seems that when absurd statements are made, absurd statements follow aswell.

Such as "changing morality", etc. They don`t seem to know humanity, logic or even sense.

Monotheists of all religions should join forces, and make a coalition formed on common values, such as non-promiscuity, non-homophilia, non-intoxicants, non-idolaterous media (and retarded advertisements) etc.

The sharia zones are very interesting, and I am a muslim myself. But maybe we could extend that to, "monozones", for all monotheists that truly would have these values. So we can have a place where human nature is not defiled, and live in peace, without provocative idolaterous elements. And ultimately show the world that living in decency is great, and our art would be great. Possibly shining a light, from a place of light, to a world in ignorance.

Peace!




No.
Title: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: Sean Higgins on April 16, 2012, 10:58:49 am

Does anyone have an explanation from the idea of fine tuning why there is an absolutely massive universe with billions of stars and hence galaxies, within which billions of solar systems of which we are one....whether they think the universe is fine tuned for this planet and god / jesus's chosen people or whether there are many other possible life containing planets. Why do you think god created so many stars and planets....so much matter. I assume there must be other lifeforms in this universe and these are all gods creations as well. Otherwise all the other things we have discovered, dont serve any purpose. Do they?

Title: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: maranatha33 on May 17, 2012, 03:50:38 pm
Hi Sean;

The answer to your question, I believe, is that God in Christ created the entire universe to show His awesome power.  Not that He needed to do it for any self serving reason, but that we may know that the One True God is truly God.  Everything that has been created shows the Glory of our God.  I would recommend the book "The Privileged Planet."  The odds of life sustaining environment on any other planet are very small...
Title: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: Stephen on May 30, 2012, 08:54:29 am

So can 2 + 2 = 3, for extremely small values of 2?

Title: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: Lion IRC on May 30, 2012, 09:05:19 pm
Yes, as long as you hold your head sideways and squint while reading.



Mr Krauss' 2+2=5 wackiness reminds me a bit of how clothing companies come up with "extremely high values" changing the empirical dimensions of a size 12 dress.

Title: Re: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: dcherchenko on February 13, 2014, 10:11:12 pm
Check this out: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZdtCKC2mUaKxL0_1Zf5BMO-un5ccKnad_JeLxXE3mIw/edit
Title: Re: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: geloofloos on June 03, 2016, 09:19:36 am
I see a paralel with the theory of relativity. Compare that with classical mechanics (Newton) and you see that it explains "deeper". If I throw a ball, classical mechanics. We feel intuitavely that that is correct. Go near the speed of light and we do not understand it.
I think that this video that was cut from the whole is dishonest. It did not show what was before and after he showed his t-shirt. He explaines why he says so. I do not fully understand it, I am not a physicist, but I understand what he meant. So, physics on every day level: 2+2=4. On the level he is working on it sometimes could be 5. He even gave another contra intuitive example about adding all numbers up. That would be -1/12 (he says 12, somewhere else on the internet it says -1/12) If in doubt the internet.
Title: Re: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: Interest12345 on July 23, 2016, 01:14:43 pm
I would think that for very large values of 2, 2+2 would equal 6, wouldn't it? 2.999999...+2.999999...= 6.
Title: Re: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: Atheist in Louisiana on July 23, 2016, 02:53:08 pm
lol it's a joke.  If you watch the whole debate, you'll see his explanation of it and understand why you should get a chuckle out of it and then forget it.
Title: Re: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: Bill McEnaney on July 30, 2016, 11:44:49 pm
If "2" named a variable in a computer program, the value of "2" could be 2.5. ;)  I don't know of any programming language where a digit can name a variable.  But "Two," "two," and "TWO" certainly can.  A yes, in some programming languages, case does matter.  So, in them the value of "two" can differ from the value of "TWO."  In the C programming language, for example, you can write:

Two = 2;
two = 5;
TWO = Two + two;

And what will you get when the computer prints the value of TWO?  You'll get 7. ;)
Title: Re: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: Charity4All on September 09, 2019, 06:31:02 pm
Despite his rude behavior otherwise, I thought his joke about 2+2=5 for very large values of 2 was funny.

Title: Re: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: Der Chemiker on September 27, 2020, 05:41:17 am
First of all: I didn't watch the enitre debate, I just saw the video the 2+2=5 scene in a shortcut.
I don't unterstand the point of Krauss. What was he trying to show us with his t-shirt 2+2=5?
If he wants to disrespect logic and philosophy, it backfires against himself because science itself is based on logic.
It ended up in a laughing crowd and Krauss embarassing himself.
Title: Re: 2+2=5, Logic, and Youtube Atheists
Post by: jayceeii on September 28, 2020, 01:55:41 pm
First of all: I didn't watch the enitre debate, I just saw the video the 2+2=5 scene in a shortcut.
I don't unterstand the point of Krauss. What was he trying to show us with his t-shirt 2+2=5?
If he wants to disrespect logic and philosophy, it backfires against himself because science itself is based on logic.
It ended up in a laughing crowd and Krauss embarassing himself.
I found this response on the Quora (https://www.quora.com/What-does-Lawrence-Krauss-mean-when-he-says-2+2-5) page referencing the clip of this, that seemed on the mark:

Quote from: Jack Bruni
He is saying that William Lane Craig’s arguments of are not true by necessity no matter how “logical” they seem. Krauss is implying that his math/physics based arguments hold up because they withstand the scrutiny of analysis, not because they sound good. He is saying that’s all that counts, not our beliefs.

He’s right, the arguments of the theists don’t hold up under analysis, and a large part of the reason for this is they’re attempting to prove an impossible God, not caring what the Living God may be like or trying to serve Him (benefit the creation in an optimal way). They’re not on a quest for God, but on a quest to control God, which is to say show their minds are a match for any ideas about God so they can feel He is under their dominion. Though acknowledging God to be “infinite,” they don’t acknowledge that He is greater. To conceive of one greater than oneself, one must know one’s own essence. Men don’t. This means any standards applied to “God” are pulled out of air, not relevant or personal.