Reasonable Faith Forums

General Discussion => Choose Your Own Topic => Topic started by: Asking_A_Question on July 13, 2013, 08:24:35 am

Title: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 13, 2013, 08:24:35 am
Lately Jem has been suggesting that no evidence has been offered that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God.  I'm not sure how she could possibly think that, but this post addresses that issue.

Is Jesus God?
Introduction
   It will be important to go over some background material before we proceed to look at some of the biblical texts.  The plan is to cover definitions of monotheism, unitarianism, and Trinitarianism.
   First, monotheism is the view that only one God exists.  This view clearly does not conflict with either unitarianism or Trinitarianism.  Thus, biblical texts that support monotheism are actually texts that support Trinitarianism.
   Second, unitarianism is the view that God is only one person.  This view does conflict with Trinitarianism.  Therefore, biblical texts that support unitarianism would show Trinitarianism to be false.  Let’s see if the Old Testament teaches as such and whether the Jews at Jesus’ time believed unitarianism.  The most famous passage is Deut. 6.4, “Hear, O Israel! YHWH our God, YHWH is one!” (NASB)  Now, this might seem unitarian under a certain reading, but that is to impose our own views upon it.  The fact of the matter is that the Jewish people weren’t thinking in those categories until after the rise of Christianity (we will see this later).  Nonetheless, let’s dig into the text to see what is meant.  If we drop down to Deut. 6.14-15, we see that the Israelites are told to not go after other gods and to serve YHWH alone as God.  Thus, the passage is affirming that YHWH alone is God at the most or that YHWH alone should be served at the least.  Thus, the passage only teaches monotheism or monolatry, neither of which conflict with Trinitarianism.
   Did the Jews at Jesus’ time believe in unitarianism?  This is met with a resounding no in the scholarly community. First, there is no precedent for it in the Old Testament.  Second, there is no precedent for it in the pseudepigrapha and apocrypha.  Third, we have good reasons to think they didn’t think as much.  For instance, here are a list of scholars who deny that the Jews were unitarian at the time of Christ: Richard Bauckham (Jesus and the God of Israel, 1-59), N.T. Wright (The New Testament and the People of God, 248-259), James D.G. Dunn (Did the First Christians Worship Jesus?: the New Testament Evidence, 148-149), and Larry W. Hurtado (Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity, 29-53).  This is also confirmed by the Two Powers Heresy which was expounded upon by Alan Segal, a Jew (Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports About Christianity and Gnosticism).  Thus, there is no good reason to think that the Old Testament, apocrypha, pseudepigrapha, or the Jews at Jesus’ time believed in unitarianism.  That means that there is no objection on that basis to the Trinity.
   Lastly, I shall present a broad definition of the Trinity.  Roughly put, Trinitarianism is the belief that (1) only one God exists, (2) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all identified as God, and (3) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all exist co-eternally.  This is typically stated as “one essence (or substance or nature), three persons.”  Thus, texts that show that the Father and the Son are not the same person do not show that Trinitarianism is wrong. In fact, those texts actually support Trinitarianism.
   With all of those points in mind, we can now move on to some of the biblical evidence.  I will try to use the New World Translation (the Jehovah’s witness translation) as often as possible, but I will also work from the Greek.
   Finally, I want to say that the evidence that Jesus is God that is produced here only scratches the surface.  There are literally dozens upon dozens of passages that show that Jesus is God either directly or indirectly.  However, I am going to try and address all of the objections (or at least the major ones) so that those can be handled.  Enjoy.

Evidence that Jesus is God
Matthew 28.19
   "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit," (NWT)  The context of this passage is after Jesus had bodily risen from the dead and He is commissioning the apostles to go and spread the good news.  Thus, the verse in question is one where Jesus Himself is speaking.  Now, the important point here is the fact that name is in the singular instead of being names.  What is a person’s name at that time in Judaism though?
   The name of a person signified who a person really is.  A person’s name signifies their being.  That is why certain people in the Old Testament get their name changed (Abram becomes Abraham) and others are assigned names based upon important events (Jacob at birth).  Thus, if a name signifies the very essence of a thing then the fact that name is singular instead of plural is extremely important.
   Thus, the name signifies the essence of a something and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all share that singular name.  Thus, this is a text that shows the Trinity to be correct since the three are one and the one is three.  The JW proposal is to read this as “in the name of the Father, Michael the archangel, and the active power of God.”  Such a reading is blasphemous though because God does not share His very essence with any angel.  Hence, the reading that shows the Trinity to be correct is the only viable option.

John 1.1
   The important part of John 1.1 is the last clause.  The first two clauses state, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God…”  An important point here is that the word “God” has the Greek “τὸν θεόν” or, transliterated, “ton theon.”  That is, the second clause uses the word theos with the definite article.  Now, the Greek for the last clause is, “καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος” or, transliterated, “kai theos en ho logos.”  It is also important to note that the Logos is identified as Jesus in John 1.14 and on.  Nonetheless, to form this sort of sentence, there are various constructions.  Let’s list them and then go through them in Greek and English (I will use “the” if the definite article is used).
   1.  καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
        a.  and the God was the Word.
   2.  καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν ὁ θεὸς.
        a.  and the Word was the God.
   3.  καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
        a.  This is what John actually used so I will leave it untranslated.
        b.  This clause subsumes any clause which has θεὸς precede ἦν.
   4.  καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν θεὸς.
        a.  This is the same as above except it does not emphasize θεὸς since it is moved to the back.
   5.  καὶ θεὶὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
        a.  Here θεὸς is replaced with θεὶὸς.
        b.  And divine (in the sense of not being God) was the Word.
   6.  καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν θεὶὸς.
        a.  This is the same construction as (5) except ὁ λόγος and θεὶὸς are switched.
        b.  And the Word was divine (in the sense of not being God).
  Now, if John used (1) or (2), then he would be saying that “ὁ λόγος” and “ὁ θεὸς” are identical which would contradict the preceding clause.  Thus, (1) and (2) are not even options for John.  Further, if he wanted to explicitly say that the Word was divine but not God, then he could have used (5) or (6).  Thus, John does not want to say that “the Word” and “the God” are identical (by using (1) and (2)), nor does he apparently want to say that the Word is divine but not God (by using (5) or (6)).  Thus, we are left with (3) and (4).
  In Greek, words can be switched around to emphasize one word without changing the meaning of the sentence (this is shown by that simple maneuver between (1) and (2), (3) and (4), and (5) and (6)).  Further, when a definite article (“the”) is not used, then the word is expressing a quality or trait.  Thus, if John wanted to say that the Word was divine, but not God, then he could use (4) to do so.  However, John instead uses (3) to form his sentence which gives emphasis to θεὸς.  Therefore, (3) is the only way possible that John can say that the Word is actually God and this is the exact construction he uses.  Thus, (3), the way John actually constructs his sentence, should be translated something like, “and the Word had the same nature as God.”
  Hence, if John wanted to identify “the Word” with “the God” or say that the Word was divine but not God, then he had many ways to do so.  Instead, he does not take either of those paths and actually declares that the Word has the same nature as God.
  Let’s make one last note. The JWs claim that translating “theos” without the article as “god” instead of “God” is a rule.  Nonetheless, theos without the article is found in Luke 20.38, John 1.1, John 8.54, and Philippians 2.13.  However, in all of them except for John 1.1, they translate theos without the article as “God” instead of “god”, contrary to what they claim the rule demands. Hence, they break their rule more than they hold to it which isn't much of a rule!  In fact, the only time this so-called “rule” is followed is when theos is obviously used in reference to Jesus.

John 1.3
  As if that evidence was not enough, we can jump down to verse 3, “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” (NWT)  The “him” is referring back to the Word.  Thus, “all things came into existence through [the Word], and apart from [the Word] not even one thing came into existence.”  Now, if that is true and we allow scripture to speak for itself, then that means the Word did not come into existence.  If the Word did come into existence, then not all things came into existence through the Word since the Word cannot come into existence through Himself.  Hence, if we claim that the Word came into existence then we are claiming that John is lying. Thus, the Word is uncreated.  However, if the Word is uncreated then the Word is God because only God is uncreated.  Thus, verse 3 also shows us that the Word is God.

John 1.14
  “So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory…” (NWT)  Here it should be noted that I am breaking the verse up in order to first focus on this part and then focus on the latter part of verse 14 which has a similarity with verse 18.  I will do this in the objections part.
  The interesting point to note here is that we have the Word (see the previous exegesis on verses 1 and 3) becoming flesh.  Now, the word “resided” is literally “tabernacled” and here is where things get interesting.  Obviously, the tabernacle recalls Israel’s time in the wilderness when God would fill the tabernacle.  Further, the Greek word for tabernacle, ἐσκήνωσεν (transliterated, eskenosen), seems to derive from the word shekinah.  In Jewish thought, shekinah represented God’s glorious presence.  Thus, we have John describing the Word becoming flesh as God’s glorious presence with us.  Thus, the presence of the Word is the presence of God because the Word is God.

John 1.18
  Moreover, in verse 18 notice that we have something like “the only one, himself God,…” (NET), “the only begotten God” (NASB), or “the only-begotten god” (NWT).  The thing I want to focus on here is the use of the non-capitalized “g” in the New World Translation.  Here, it will be said that since theos does not have an article then the word should be translated as “god” instead of “God”.  They make this same argument for John 1.1, but we have seen that if John wanted to say it that way he could have, but he chose not to do so.  However, if that is the rule then the beginning of verse 18 should also be translated “god” instead of “God.”  In fact, both uses of theos in verse 18 do not have the article.  Thus, consistency demands one to translate both the same.  However, the NWT is not consistent so it translates the first theos as “God” since they know it is referring to the Father, but the second as “god” because they know it is referring to the Word (Jesus).  Doing so displays a prior commitment to a belief instead of letting the text speak for itself.

John 8.58
  “Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” (NWT)  Here it might be important to look at the Greek a little bit.  Thus, “before Abraham was [literal translation], ἐγὼ εἰμί (transliterated, ego eimi).”  Now, “ἐγὼ” simply means “I” and “εἰμί” means “to be.”  Any Jew would recognize the impact of saying “ἐγὼ εἰμί” (as is demonstrated by verse 59).  The impact of ἐγὼ εἰμί can be seen in two ways.
  First, the Jews obviously knew what Jesus meant because they tried to stone Him, but what did they know exactly.  The Old Testament is originally written in Hebrew, but about 200 years before Jesus’ time the Old Testament was translated into Greek so that people could actually read it.  The most famous of these translations is called the Septuagint.  The most interesting thing to note is how the Septuagint translated Exodus 3.14 which is where Moses asks God what His name is and God responds.  And how does the Septuagint translate God’s answer? ἐγώ εἰμι.  The Jews knew such a phrase was sacred if it was stand alone.  Clearly this is how the Jews understood Jesus’ answer and this is how He meant it.  Jesus’ claim of ἐγώ εἰμι is a claim to be God Himself.
  Second, ἐγώ εἰμι literally translates as “I am.”  Thus, John 8.58 renders “…before Abraham was, I am.”  However, if Jesus is actually created as JWs contend, then that is just horrible English (or Greek).  Jesus should have said, “before Abraham was, I was.”  In fact, if He had wanted to say that then it would have been rather easy.  Instead of “πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί”, He could have said “πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ γενέσθι.” He had just used the word he needed literally one word earlier.  If Jesus wanted to say that He was merely created before Abraham, then it was a rather simple statement to make.  Instead, He chooses to say “ἐγὼ εἰμί”, I am, which is improper if He is created and a claim that He is God.  Thus, John 8.58 also shows us that Jesus is God.

John 12.41
   “Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him.” (NWT)  The immediate question is who the “him” is.  Verse 36 shows that the “him” is referring back to Jesus.  However, if that is not evidence, we also see from verse 42 that the “him” is Jesus.  Thus, we can insert Jesus name to understand the verse better, “Isaiah said these things because he [Isaiah] saw his [Jesus’] glory, and he [Isaiah] spoke about him [Jesus].”  The obvious question is what glory did Isaiah see?
   The obvious answer is the one that typically comes to one’s mind when they think about Isaiah.  This is found in Isaiah 6.1-4, “1In the year that King Uzziah died I, however, got to see [YHWH], sitting on a throne lofty and lifted up, and his skirts were filling the temple. 2Seraphs were standing above him. Each one had six wings. With two he kept his face covered, and with two he kept his feet covered, and with two he would fly about. 3And this one called to that one and said: ‘Holy, holy, holy is [YHWH] of armies. The fullness of all the earth is his glory.’ 4And the pivots of the thresholds began to quiver at the voice of the one calling, and the house itself gradually filled with smoke.” (NWT)   Isaiah saw YHWH’s glory and He spoke about YHWH.  However, John tells us that He saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about Him.  Thus, John is telling us that Jesus is YHWH.  However, if Jesus is YHWH then Jesus is God.  Thus, this text also shows us that Jesus is God.

John 20.28
   Here I am going to quote John 20.27-29 so we have a bit of context, “27Next he [Jesus] said to Thomas: ‘Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing.’ 28In answer Thomas said to him: ‘My Lord and my God!’ 29Jesus said to him: ‘Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.’ (NWT)  The important point is obviously verse 28 when Thomas says “my Lord and my God.”  The phrase literally is “the Lord of me and the God of me.”  It is interesting to note that both Lord and God have the definite article so that is not a question in this verse.  Now, there are three possible explanations for the phrase: (1) Thomas was referring to two people, (2) it was an exclamation and hence not accurate, or (3) the whole phrase is talking about Jesus.  Let’s go through these in that order.
   Option (1) is that “my Lord” refers to Jesus and “my God” refers to the Father.  However, this is wholly inadequate.  First, there is no indication that there are two people spoken about anywhere in the text. Second, the incident obviously is between only Jesus and Thomas as is shown by verse 27.  Third, verse 28 tells us that “Thomas said to him [Jesus]…”  Thus, the phrase is said to Jesus and not to two different people.  Thus, option (1) is not an adequate explanation.
   Option (2) is that Thomas blasphemed in saying “my God.”  However, this is weighed against by a number of reasons.  First, again, verse 28 tells us that the response is to Jesus which doesn’t make much sense if Thomas is blaspheming.  Second, Thomas was a pious Jew so blasphemy would not be a thinkable option for him.  Third, notice that Jesus does not rebuke Thomas for blaspheming which is what Jesus would have done if Thomas had blasphemed.  Moreover, Jesus actually commends Thomas for his faith in verse 29 which makes absolutely no sense if Thomas had just blasphemed.  Thus, option (2) is not viable either.
   Thus, the last option is (3).  However, (3) fits beautifully with the context. Again, the beginning of verse 28 shows us that Thomas is talking to Jesus which is exactly what option (3) says.  Moreover, option (3) says that Thomas was accurate in what he was saying which is demonstrated by Jesus commending Thomas for his faith.  Thus, we have a text that uses theos with the definite article and thus is translated as “God” even by the NWT and is unambiguously about Jesus.  Therefore, this text definitively shows that Jesus is God.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 13, 2013, 08:24:58 am
Philippians 2.6
   “6who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God” (NWT)
   Beginning in verse six, the “who” is talking about Jesus Christ as the preceding verse makes clear.  “God’s form” or “the form of God” shows a correspondence with reality.  Thus, this also indicates that Jesus is God.  Just as “form of a slave” in verse 7 means that Jesus was actually a slave in the sense that He was actually a man, so “form of God” means that Jesus was actually God.
Moreover, another important part of verse six is the second half which says, “gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God”  That translation is actually a mistranslation of the Greek as I shall show.  Although something along those lines is a popular translation, it is not the best.  In fact, Roy W. Hoover (a liberal Christian part of the Jesus seminar) wrote an article entitled The Harpagmos Enigma: A Philological Solution for the Harvard Theological Review in 1971.  He demonstrated that the phrase should be translated "...did not count equality with God as a thing to be exploited..."  Thus, Jesus would have equality with God which means Jesus is God (not the same person, the same Being).  N.T. Wright reinforced this view in "Harpagmos and the Meaning of Phil. 2.5-11."  In fact, Wright's article on the topic is considered a classic for its breadth and depth and can be found in The Climax of the Covenant (updated and entitled Jesus Christ Is Lord: Philippians 2.5-11).
   The only response to Hoover’s article has been an article by J.C. O’Neill entitled Hoover on Harpagmos Reviewed, with a Modest Proposal Concerning Philippians 2.6.  O’Neill tried to dispute Hoover’s reading of certain verses that supported Hoover’s translation but O’Neill’s alternative readings ended up being a distinction without a difference.  O’Neill’s ultimate suggestion is to insert a word into the verse that is found in no Greek manuscript anywhere.  Thus, the alternative proposal is based upon trying to claim differences where there are none and changing the biblical text with absolutely no textual critical grounds to do so.  Hence, Philippians 2.6 should be translated as “…did not count equality with God as a thing to be exploited…”  However, no other being has equality with God so that means that Jesus is God!

Philippians 2.10-11
   “10so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,11and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (NWT)
  Phil. 2.10-11 is also an important point. It is obviously a reference back to Isa. 45.23.  Interestingly enough, that grouping of Isaiah is part of the most monotheistic passages in all of the OT and that specific text is talking about YHWH.  Thus, Paul is applying a YHWH text to Jesus and thus indicating His deity.  The fact that it is to the glory of the God the Father does not in any way change this point.  In fact, if Paul had not put that then he would have seemingly been playing Jesus and the Father off against one another.  Thus, by putting that clause Paul shows that a YHWH text can be applied to Jesus and that Jesus and the Father aren't separate gods.  It therefore follows that Phil. 2.10-11 shows that Jesus is God also.

Hebrews 1.10-12 and Psalm 102.25-26
   Here I think it is best to start in Psalm 102.25-26 and then go to Hebrews 1.10-12.  “25Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth itself, And the heavens are the work of your hands. 26They themselves will perish, but you yourself will keep standing; And just like a garment they will all of them wear out. Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will finish their turn.” (NWT)  If we look back to verse 24 we see that the “you” is referring back to the Psalmist’s God.  Further, that is used with reference to the divine name YHWH which is used in verse 22.  Thus, the Psalm is talking about YHWH God.  Further, who besides God laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens is the work of their hands?  Who besides YHWH does not perish?  Who besides YHWH God will replace the heavens and the earth?  No one.  Only He can do those things.  Only God can accomplish all of those tasks.  The Psalmist rightfully sees that hence why the Psalm is talking about YHWH God.
   And now let’s quote Hebrews 1.10-12, “And: ‘You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands.11They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old,12and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out.’” (NWT)  These verses are quoting Psalm 102.25-26.  Clearly they must be talking about God because we already saw that only God can do those things.  No other being, neither archangel nor human can have such things ascribed to them without the person saying those things about them committing blasphemy.  Thus, the “you” at the beginning of the verse must be talking about God.  We notice that verse 10 starts with an “and” which is referring backwards.  And when we go back to find the subject we stumble upon verse 8, “But with reference to the Son:…” (NWT)  The “you” is referring back to the Son.  The Son must then be God.  And the Son is Jesus of Nazareth.
   Hence, this verse also shows us that Jesus is God.

Objections to Jesus is God
Matthew 28.18
   “And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” (NWT)  Here is it said that since authority had been given to Jesus that means He is not God.
   This interpretation misunderstands the nature of the incarnation though.  God the Son became flesh in Jesus of Nazareth.  Thus, the Son was humbled and had to fulfill the law perfectly to be our sacrifice.  Hence, Jesus during His ministry and death did not exercise the authority that was rightfully His.  Instead, He had to demonstrate His authority by giving it up and living a perfect and humble life.  Therefore, after Jesus dies and is bodily raised the authority which is rightfully His is restored to Him because He had fulfilled His mission.  Thus, this verse poses no problem to the fact that Jesus is God.

John 1.14, etc.
   “…a glory such as belongs to an only‐begotten son from a father;…”  The objection here is based upon the fact that the Son is the “only-begotten.”  This phrase is also used in John 1.18 and 3.16.  It is said that if the Son is begotten then He had a beginning and thus cannot be God.  Here only-begotten is thought to signify that the Father specially created the Son and no other thing.  Before we dig into the verse, a quick note is in order.  In the controversy between people who believed in the Trinity and those who denied that Jesus is God (called Arians after Arius), this verse was used quite often.  However, the Arians recognized that if Jesus is begotten then a thing only begets another thing of the same substance so that would entail that Jesus is God.  Thus, those who denied that Jesus is God actually thought this verse showed that He is God based upon the phrase “only-begotten.”  Nonetheless, let’s dive into investigating the verse.
   The Greek word here is μονογενὴς (transliterated, monogenes—here I am using the word from 1.18 since it is the root).  The word can either mean only-begotten (as the JWs translate it and interpret it) or unique/one of a kind.  Thus, which way should the word be translated?  Well, if we jump over to Hebrews 11.17 we find the word used again.  Here the writer of Hebrews is talking about Abraham offering up his son (which is a reference back to Genesis 22).  The writer calls Isaac “monogene” (a conjugated form of monogenes).  However, is Isaac the only-begotten of Abraham?  Of course not!  Abraham also had Ishmael.  Thus, here the word cannot be translated as only-begotten which shows that is a deficient understanding of monogenes.  How about the translation as unique or one of a kind?  Clearly Isaac fits that translation since Isaac was Abraham’s unique or one of a kind son since the promise was to go through Isaac.  Thus, monogenes should be understood as unique or one of a kind.
   Hence, if monogenes should be understood in that way in Hebrews 11.17, it follows that that is the best way to understand the word in other contexts.  Thus, the whole argument from the word only-begotten collapses because it is based upon a misunderstanding of the Greek.  Hence, this objection is of no force whatsoever.

John 1.18
   “No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.” (NET)  (I chose this translation due to the considerations above.)  Sometimes an objection is leveled by this verse because it says “no one has ever seen God” yet people have obviously seen Jesus thus Jesus must not be God.
   However, that is based upon a misunderstanding of the verse at best.  The first part of the clause is obviously referring to God the Father, as even JWs recognize.  However, Jesus is not God the Father in the flesh, but God the Son in the flesh.  Thus, the verse says “no one has ever seen God the Father…” and that is no conflict whatsoever for those who believe in the Trinity. 

John 14.28
   “YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” (NWT)  The important part of this verse is the last clause, “because the Father is greater than I [Jesus] am.”  The JWs interpret this as showing that Jesus thus cannot be God because if Jesus were God then the Father could not be greater than Him.  However, clearly the Father is greater than Jesus according to this verse, so that means Jesus isn’t God.
   However, the fundamental problem with this is that it also misunderstands Trinitarian thought.  An important distinction is important here.  There are two ways to talk about the Trinity: ontologically and economically.  If we talk about the Trinity ontologically, this is to say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all equal with one another because they share the same essence of being God.  However, if we talk about the Trinity economically, this is to say that the three persons all have different roles.  For instance, only the Son takes on flesh while the Father and the Holy Spirit do not.  Thus, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all equal in nature, but have different roles.
   With all of that in mind, the JW needs to show that Jesus is talking about the Father’s essence being greater than Jesus’ essence.  However, that is found nowhere in the verse.  Thus, this verse cannot distinguish if Jesus is talking about the Father’s essence or His role being greater than Jesus’.  Therefore, it follows that this verse fits perfectly with Trinitarian thought if we interpret it as talking about function.  Further, the fact that we have the preponderance of evidence that Jesus is God listed above entails that we should interpret this verse as saying that the Father has a superior role to Jesus.  That interpretation in no way weighs against the fact that Jesus is God.  Here an analogy might be important.
   In the bible, gender roles are taught.  Thus, while a man and a woman are equal in essence (neither one is superior to the other since they are both human and made in God’s image), then neither is greater than the other.  However, a man and a woman do have different roles to play in a marriage for instance so they are not functionally equivalent.  In fact, one can say that the man has a greater role functionally than the woman, but that does not entail that the man and the woman are not ontologically equivalent in greatness.  Thus, the symbol of marriage is actually a reflection of the Trinity.

John 17.3
   “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (NWT)  Typically a number of objections are leveled from this verse and they typically stem from a misunderstanding of the Trinity (hence why I defined it above).  Nonetheless, I shall go over them quickly just to clear away misconceptions.
   First, some context is in order.  John 17 is known as the high priestly prayer and it is the recording of a prayer of Jesus to God the Father.  Now, here it is sometimes objected that we believe that Jesus is praying to Himself which doesn’t make any sense.  However, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of Trinitarian thought.  We believe that the Father and the Son are not the same person.  In fact, the view that does believe that they are the same person is called modalism and it is an anti-Trinitarian belief that was condemned as heresy.  Thus, this objection holds no weight whatsoever.
   Second, it is sometimes said that the Son cannot be equal to the Father because Jesus is praying to the Father.  However, this is also based upon a misunderstanding.  Jesus is fully God and fully man in one person.  Thus, He still had to fulfill the Law perfectly in order to be our sacrifice and to do that He must glorify God fully.  Thus, His human nature had to pray to God and that in no way diminishes the fact that He also has a divine nature.  Thus, this objection is also based upon a misunderstanding.
   The last possible objection based upon this verse is that the Father is called “the only true God.”  However, we also believe that.  All Jesus is saying here is that other gods are false gods.  However, Jesus isn’t another god, but the same God, they are just separate persons.  Thus, this objection only makes sense against those who think that Jesus is a different god, but that is not what Trinitarians believe.
   With those three objections cleared up, this verse actually supports Trinitarian thought because it shows that the Father and the Son are different persons.  This is exactly what Trinitarians believe so the verse fits nicely.

Philippians 2.9
   “For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,” (NWT)  Here it is said that since the Father exalted Jesus then that shows that Jesus did not deserve that position or name and thus Jesus isn’t God.
   Again, though, this is based upon a misunderstanding of the Greek word.  The word does not mean “exalt to a position that was not previously His” but “exalt to a position above anyone or anything else.”  Thus, it is not that Jesus was given a position, but that He has a position above everything else.  Hence, instead of working against Jesus as God, this verse actually shows us that Jesus is God.
   This same line of reasoning applies to the “name” Jesus is given.  Notice that the NWT inserts “other” when it is not actually in the text.  This is because the JWs recognize what name is meant.  To a Jewish person, only one name was above every name and that name is YHWH.  Thus, Jesus’ name is YHWH which means that Jesus is God.  Again, instead of working against the fact that Jesus is God, this text actually shows that Jesus is God.
   Therefore, instead of this text working against showing that Jesus is God, the text actually shows that Jesus is God in two different ways.

Colossians 1.15
   “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;” (NWT)  The “He” here is talking about Jesus which is shown if we refer back to verse 13.  Thus, it is typically said that this verse shows that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation which entails that He was created.  However, God isn’t created thus Jesus cannot be God.
   While that might sound all fine and dandy if that is all you are told, that in fact goes far beyond the evidence.  The Greek word is πρωτότοκος (transliterated as prototokos).  Now, the word can either signify the firstborn in time or preeminence.  Clearly if the first sense is meant, then the JWs interpretation is correct and this is a good objection.  However, if the second termis meant then the objection falls apart.  Thus, determining what is meant by this word is the important point.  However, how exactly can we do that?
   This can be done by getting a little context on the verse. Here I will quote Colossians 1.16-17 of the NWT, “16because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.17Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,”  Notice that the word “other” is inserted multiple times here.  The word does not appear in the Greek text and so the insertion is, at best, an interpretation.  However, we must note that verse 16 starts with “because.”  The “because” is obviously referring back to verse fifteen.
   Hence, Jesus is the firstborn of all creation “because” of something.  What is that something though?  Well the rest of verse 16 without the insertion of other says that “by means of him [Jesus] all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth…All things have been created through him [Jesus] and for him [Jesus].”  Thus, Jesus is before all created things which means that He is not created.  Thus, this shows us that the firstborn must be read as preeminence since Jesus is preeminent over all things because they came into being through Him.  Thus, the reading of firstborn as firstborn in time does not make sense of the verse.
   As if that wasn’t enough, this is further shown by verse 17 when we remove the insertion of “other” since it is not found in the actual text, “Also, he [Jesus] is before all things and by means of him all things were made to exist.”  This further reiterates that Jesus is not created and thus the word for firstborn cannot be read as firstborn in time.
   Lastly, it should be noted that verse 19 is also an indication that Jesus is God which shows that verse 15 cannot be read the way they want.  However, I am not going to press that point merely for brevity’s sake.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 13, 2013, 08:25:16 am
Revelation 3.12
  “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.” (NWT)  It is said here that Jesus calls the Father “my God” which means that Jesus isn’t God.  Further, it is emphasized that Jesus had returned to heaven at this point.  Let’s see if this interpretation falls apart under scrutiny also.
  First, it should be noted as I noted before that Jesus is fully God and fully man.  Thus, as a Jewish man He did have to have faith in God and thus worship God.  Thus, the fact that He says “my God” only shows that He was a devout Jewish man, which was necessary for Him to be the sacrifice for our sins.  It then follows that the fact that Jesus says “my God” in reference to the Father in no way shows that Jesus is not God the Son.
  Further, the fact that Jesus had returned to heaven at this point does not matter either.  When He returned to heaven He did not all of the sudden lose His human nature.  Thus, this part of the verse is perfectly consistent with Trinitarian thought too.  The analysis of this verse also covers times when Paul says things like “the God and Father of Jesus.”
  Lastly, I think it is important to note that John apparently saw no conflict in these things nor did the early church fathers.  For instance, we saw above that John has multiple places where he shows that Jesus is God.  However, in John 20.17 we also see that John has Jesus calling the Father “my God.”  Thus, John apparently saw no conflict in these things and so we shouldn’t try to play John off against himself.  Further, the early church fathers didn’t see a conflict either.  For instance, Polycarp (69-155 AD) was said to be a disciple of John and in his letter to the Philippians he says, “Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,…and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.” So he apparently saw no conflict between the two either.
   Thus, this objection does not stand up to scrutiny either.

Revelation 3.14
   “And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,” (NWT)  This verse has Jesus as the speaker.  Thus, it is argued that Jesus is speaking and He calls Himself “the beginning of the creation by God.”  However, if He is the beginning of the creation by God then that means He is created which means He is not God.  So goes their exegesis.
   However, again, this is based upon a mistranslation of the Greek.  The Greek word for beginning is ἀρχὴ (transliterated, arche).  However, what does arche mean?  Well the word can either mean beginning, originator, or ruler.  Thus, on translation grounds alone, two-thirds of the translations do not weigh against the Trinity and only one-third does.  Hence, the burden of proof is on JWs to argue that it must be translated as beginning.
   However, in this context the phrase seems to hearken back to other writings of John, namely John 1.1-3.  There we saw that all things came into being through Jesus which John emphasizes by saying that not even one came into being apart from Jesus.  Thus, with that connection established it seems that originator is a good translation.  Nonetheless, ruler also fits because we see this found in other passages like Colossians 1 (covered above).  Therefore, both originator or ruler fit as a good translation of arche while “beginning” has no ground to stand on whatsoever except based upon already believing that Jesus is created.  However, if that is one’s reason for the translation then that is a poor job of translating because you are bring your own views into the text instead of letting the text speak for itself.
   Thus, Revelation 3.14 should be translated as Jesus saying “the originator of God’s creation.”  This translation is based upon solid hermeneutical principles and does not read one’s view into the text.  With that in mind, Revelation 3.14 is no objection whatsoever to the fact that Jesus is God.

Conclusion
   This survey only scratched the surface in the number of texts that show that Jesus is God.  However, I tried to cover all of the major objections.  Although the focus on each passage was somewhat in depth, I think it was worth the effort.  The conclusion of the matter is that we have 12 texts showing that Jesus is God.  Further, we looked at nine passages that are used as objections and found them all to be lacking.  Therefore, the only thing one can do in this situation if one wants to follow the Bible’s teaching is to accept that Jesus is God.  Soli Deo Gloria!

If you are looking for more information or for resources, feel free to PM me.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Bertuzzi on July 13, 2013, 01:45:09 pm
Thank you for all the work put into this! Great read.

John 14:28
I personally like the comparison between the Trinity and the symbol of marriage. What functions are you referring to? That is, what greater function or responsibility does God the Father have that Jesus does not?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 13, 2013, 01:57:17 pm
Thank you for all the work put into this! Great read.

John 14:28
I personally like the comparison between the Trinity and the symbol of marriage. What functions are you referring to? That is, what greater function or responsibility does God the Father have that Jesus does not?

Good, I'm glad someone enjoyed it.

Well in marriage there are obviously different roles for men and women.  The same is true with regards to preaching (although I don't want this thread to turn into a discussion on that topic).  With regard to the Trinity, only Jesus was humiliated in the incarnation and so there are different roles there.  It is the Holy Spirit which leads people to faith so there is a different role there.  The Son will have a different role than the Father once things are consummated (1 Cor. 15.28) so there are different roles there.  Things along those lines.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Keith_ on July 13, 2013, 04:35:43 pm
AAQ, thanks.  Enjoyably in-depth analysis. 
-keith
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 13, 2013, 08:10:44 pm
No problem. I'm glad. Just figured I would do some sharing as I studied New Testament Christology last semester pretty in depth.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 13, 2013, 08:22:05 pm
Any source cited for your copy and paste here AAQ? Or is this all your own work?

Now, after all that, can you provide one scripture in which Jesus or his Father or even the holy spirit, directly attests to the fact that they are all part of a three in one godhead?

Where is one single statement from Jesus Christ saying that he is God Almighty?

Where does it say "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit"?

Can I also have a scripture that says that Jesus is "fully God and Fully man?

Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 13, 2013, 08:24:36 pm
Any source cited for your copy and paste here AAQ? Or is this all your own work?

It's my own work.  I can cite sources by top notch scholars that agree with me if you want.

Quote
Now, after all that, can you provide one scripture in which Jesus or his Father or even the holy spirit, directly attests to the fact that they are all part of a three in one godhead?

I'm not sure what you are asking for here.  Maybe you should just engage the evidence that Jesus is God.

Quote
Where is one single statement from Jesus Christ saying that he is God Almighty?

Where does it say "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit"?

Can I also have a scripture that says that Jesus is "fully God and Fully man?

Thanks.  :)

Again, if you want to actually engage the evidence then that would be great.  I highlighted a number of verses that call Jesus God and others that show Him to be YHWH.  These childish responses don't engage the evidence at all.  Please read the post with an open mind and an open bible Jem.  I want you to come to know the truth.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 13, 2013, 09:42:36 pm
Any source cited for your copy and paste here AAQ? Or is this all your own work?

It's my own work.  I can cite sources by top notch scholars that agree with me if you want.

Quote
Now, after all that, can you provide one scripture in which Jesus or his Father or even the holy spirit, directly attests to the fact that they are all part of a three in one godhead?

I'm not sure what you are asking for here.  Maybe you should just engage the evidence that Jesus is God.

Quote
Where is one single statement from Jesus Christ saying that he is God Almighty?

Where does it say "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit"?

Can I also have a scripture that says that Jesus is "fully God and Fully man?

Thanks.  :)

Again, if you want to actually engage the evidence then that would be great.  I highlighted a number of verses that call Jesus God and others that show Him to be YHWH.  These childish responses don't engage the evidence at all.  Please read the post with an open mind and an open bible Jem.  I want you to come to know the truth.

I have engaged with you all I am going to on this topic AAQ. Ad nauseum.

There is not one scripture that you have presented where you did not have to explain the trinity into it.

If you read any one of them without you inferring what you want to see, you would not find it explicitly stated.

Believe it if you wish.



Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 13, 2013, 09:44:20 pm
You didn't read my posts at all did you Jem. I went through the verses and many of them can only understood by saying that Jesus is God. I know facts are getting in your way but choose the Bible over the JWs. The bible is a better choice, I promise!
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 14, 2013, 08:45:45 am
Just in case this was missed.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 14, 2013, 11:20:19 am
Hey AAQ,
I'm off to church soon but will look at this properly tonight. I see Jem is giving her overly prescriptive not-realising-the-Bible-is-not-a-systematic-theology-usual-response again. Thanks for putting the work in.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 14, 2013, 11:51:51 am
Sounds good lapwing. Yes, so far no one has actually engaged my exegesis as there is a JW in another thread who brings up texts I dealt with and doesn't say anything about my exegesis. It's quite sad. Let me know what you think whenever you get time to read it.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 14, 2013, 04:36:28 pm
Sounds good lapwing. Yes, so far no one has actually engaged my exegesis as there is a JW in another thread who brings up texts I dealt with and doesn't say anything about my exegesis. It's quite sad. Let me know what you think whenever you get time to read it.

Just for your information AAQ, I have not seen the other poster state that he is a JW. In fact his terminology tells me he is not.
Not all those who reject the trinity are JW's. There are others who accept the compelling evidence that is freely available. It is very hard to deny.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 14, 2013, 04:54:11 pm
And then there are those who accept the Biblical truth of the Triune God. If you ask me I would choose to follow the Bible instead of deception and falsehood.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 14, 2013, 05:09:26 pm
Jem,

I agree it is hard to deny the evidence. That's why you surprise me since I went through the evidence for you and you apparently didn't even read it let alone interact with it. You can deny the bible all you want so that you can follow the JWs, but you really shouldn't.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Aaron Massey on July 14, 2013, 05:49:44 pm
And then there are those who accept the Biblical truth of the Triune God. If you ask me I would choose to follow the Bible instead of deception and falsehood.
So you dont accept the trinity then?

AAQ, why didnt you put this on to the end of the other thread with the similar name instead of a new Thread?

That way, anyone wanting to read it could have in context of the other arguments given, as Jem said "ad nauseum"   

Now everyone who wants present a case against it, has to repeat themselves.  If this evidence you have posted is a defeater, then why not put it at the end of the other thread where the arians, unitarians etc.. have already placed there arguments?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 14, 2013, 06:03:29 pm
So you dont accept the trinity then?

Of course. The Bible teach clearly the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 14, 2013, 06:16:24 pm
Asking_A_Question,
Some thoughts on your OP (+1ed)

If you look at other NT uses of "tabernacle" it gets even better e.g. Rev 21:3

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
The now but not yet nature of the kingdom!

Will Jem dare to read this despite his JW masters warning against reading anything other than JW writings?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 14, 2013, 06:44:27 pm
Aaron,

None of these were actually addressed. They were skated by. If they were addressed then they can post their exegesis here and engage mine. They and you are free to do so.

Lapwing,

Thanks and good point. I don't expect anyone to really engage this as they have had the opportunity to do so and I've covered them pretty in depth including objections. We'll see.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 14, 2013, 07:11:53 pm
Asking_A_Question,
Some thoughts on your OP (+1ed)

If you look at other NT uses of "tabernacle" it gets even better e.g. Rev 21:3

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
The now but not yet nature of the kingdom!

Will Jem dare to read this despite his JW masters warning him against reading anything other than JW writings?

Him? I am female lapwing, just for your information.  :-\

The nonsense continues.....
In describing those of the "great multitude" John was told by the angel....

"These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation.
They washed their robes and made them white
in the blood of the Lamb.
15 For this reason they are before the throne of God,
and they serve Him day and night in His sanctuary.
The One seated on the throne will shelter (b) them:

16 They will no longer hunger;
they will no longer thirst;
the sun will no longer strike them,
nor will any heat.
17 For the Lamb who is at the center of the throne
will shepherd them;
He will guide them to springs of living waters,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
[/color](Rev 7:14-17  HOLMAN. Note the very similar wording to Rev 21:3, 4)

 FOOTNOTE reads:Revelation 7:15 (b) Or will spread His tent over

Do you notice that these ones are already rendering service to God in his sanctuary? He also spreads his tent over them.

What does it mean to have Jehovah's tent spread over redeemed mankind who are already worshipping God in his temple?

The 23rd Psalm represents God as a gracious host. It says: “You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows..”
(Psalm 23:5)

On another occasion, the same psalmist—King David of ancient Israel—asked: “Lord, who can dwell in Your tent? Who can live on Your holy mountain?” (Psalm 15:1)

He then goes on to list the characteristics of those who will be welcomed into Jehovah's "tent".

2 "The one who lives honestly, practices righteousness,
and acknowledges the truth in his heart—
3 who does not slander with his tongue,
who does not harm his friend
or discredit his neighbor,
4 who despises the one rejected by the Lord
but honors those who fear the Lord,
who keeps his word whatever the cost,
5 who does not lend his money at interest
or take a bribe against the innocent—
the one who does these things will never be moved."
(Psalm 15:2-5 HOLMAN)

To be a guest in someone's tent in Bible times was to be received with hospitality and protection. The Jews were most notable for this quality. Care for the traveler was viewed as an integral part of living, and great was the courtesy extended the visitor, whether a stranger, a friend, a relative, or an invited guest This is why Jesus' disciples were originally told to take no provisions with them in their ministry.

You really should do more thorough research and not accept your own 'party line' about everything. How are you different to what you constantly accuse me of doing?  :(



Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 14, 2013, 08:06:17 pm
You still have yet to engage my exegesis Jem.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 15, 2013, 03:39:06 am
Jem,
So what was your point? Note that John 1:14 indicates that Jesus "tabernacled" among us.
I wasn't writing from any "party line". That's what you do, Jem.

Quote
Do you notice that these ones are already rendering service to God in his sanctuary?
Reading further around my quotation:

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

5And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
 Rev 21:1-7 ESV

So are you saying that the new Jerusalem has already arrived on earth? Where is it? Brooklyn New York? (JW HQ) :o

You never said what books about Christianity you have read other than JW literature.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 15, 2013, 05:27:42 pm
Anyone else?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 15, 2013, 09:01:49 pm
And then there are those who accept the Biblical truth of the Triune God. If you ask me I would choose to follow the Bible instead of deception and falsehood.
So you dont accept the trinity then?

AAQ, why didnt you put this on to the end of the other thread with the similar name instead of a new Thread?

That way, anyone wanting to read it could have in context of the other arguments given, as Jem said "ad nauseum"   

Now everyone who wants present a case against it, has to repeat themselves.  If this evidence you have posted is a defeater, then why not put it at the end of the other thread where the arians, unitarians etc.. have already placed there arguments?

If he can copy and paste, so can his detractors. Further, having a new thread dedicated to his arguments invites people to criticize his arguments in specific.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 15, 2013, 10:10:12 pm
Jem,
So what was your point? Note that John 1:14 indicates that Jesus "tabernacled" among us.
I wasn't writing from any "party line". That's what you do, Jem.

Quote
Do you notice that these ones are already rendering service to God in his sanctuary?
Reading further around my quotation:

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

5And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
 Rev 21:1-7 ESV

So are you saying that the new Jerusalem has already arrived on earth? Where is it? Brooklyn New York? (JW HQ)

Must you be so testy lapwing? Why the sarcasm?  :-\

Look at the scripture you quoted and answer the following questions for me....if you can.

1 What is the "new heaven and the new earth"?
 
2 What is the 'first heaven and earth' that passed away?

3 What is 'the sea' that is no more?

4 What is the "new Jerusalem" that comes down out of heaven? How is it connected to the 'old' Jerusalem?

5 How is it like a "bride adorned for her husband"?

6 How is the "dwelling place of God with men"? Physically or spiritually?

7 If God is going to make all things that cause pain for the human race disappear...how is he going to do that?

8 Will it be in heaven or on earth?

9 Going back to Rev 20:11 who is the one sitting on the throne? He is mentioned again as the Alpha and Omega in 21:5,6. Who is it?

10 What is the destiny of those who suffer the sentence of "the lake that burns with fire and sulphur"?

I will be interested to hear how you interpret all of that passage, not just one small phrase within it.
If you are going to quote scripture to me it would be good if you could explain what all of it means. If you can answer those questions, then we can tackle what new Jerusalem is and when it comes.  :)

Quote
You never said what books about Christianity you have read other than JW literature.

I have already answered this.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: TheisticThunder on July 15, 2013, 10:19:56 pm
I'm still awaiting for Jem to engege with AAQ's exegesis.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 15, 2013, 11:56:21 pm
I am as well.  ;D
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 16, 2013, 02:45:39 am
I'm still awaiting for Jem to engege with AAQ's exegesis.

Don't hold your breath TT.

I have responded to all of his arguments on other threads...I'm not doing it all again.  ::)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 16, 2013, 02:47:36 am
I am as well. 

Questions in post #26 are still waiting for you lapwing.....???
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 16, 2013, 03:53:35 am
Jem,

We're still waiting for you to respond to AAQ's OPs in this thread. I assume you still think the topic is important. Much of what AAQ wrote was fresh material so you can't have already "responded to all his arguments". Try engaging properly for once.

You still haven't cited one non JW book about Christianity you have read.
Conclusion: You are under the JW thumb and you don't know it.

How are those with a heavenly calling chosen?
Why do you not celebrate communion at the Lord's table given this is unbiblical (e.g. Acts 20:7)

Try answering this question first (already asked in #23):
"So are you saying that the new Jerusalem has already arrived on earth? Where is it? Brooklyn New York? (JW HQ) "
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 16, 2013, 05:15:08 am
Jem,

We're still waiting for you to respond to AAQ's OPs in this thread. I assume you still think the topic is important. Much of what AAQ wrote was fresh material so you can't have already "responded to all his arguments". Try engaging properly for once.

There is no 'fresh' material. It's all been rehashed before...ad nauseum. Done and dusted.

When any of you can show me one scripture (in an accepted literal translation) in which the Father or his son directly acknowledges Jesus as the Almighty or the holy spirit as the Almighty, we might have something to discuss.

Produce just one scripture that says "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" and I will give an extended and detailed explanation for every one of those so called "proof" texts.

Every single scripture quoted in the OP needed to have a trinitarian explanation inserted into it. It was not in the original words, but by implication and suggestion, voila, a three headed god appeared out of somewhere other than the Bible.

Quote
You still haven't cited one non JW book about Christianity you have read.
Conclusion: You are under the JW thumb and you don't know it.

What have you been quoting your "articles" from then lapwing? It appears that you are under a "thumb" yourself.  Pot...kettle?  ???

I don't believe that there are "Christian" books written in support of Christendom's teachings. So what need do I have to read books in support of false religion...something in which I have no interest?
I have read books on history that pertain to the early church, but certainly not anything that promotes ideas that I have already investigated and rejected outright? Just out of curiosity, have you read any JW publications?

Just because you call yourself "Christian", doesn't mean you are one.
Just because you claim that a book is "Christian" doesn't mean it is.

I don't believe that I need your permission to select my reading material, nor do you need mine to choose yours.

Quote
How are those with a heavenly calling chosen?
Rom 8:14-17

Quote
Why do you not celebrate communion at the Lord's table given this is unbiblical (e.g. Acts 20:7)
Sorry, I thought you were asking Curt.....you were actually talking about me, not to me.  :-\

Acts 20:7 says "On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight."
Where does it mention that this was a communion meal? They broke bread at most mealtimes, not just at communion meals. Since Jesus did not instruct his followers to assemble on the first day of the week as a regular observance of that day, we can conclude that the assembly of Christians at Troas was for Christian fellowship at a meal because Paul was leaving the next day for Assos.

Quote
Try answering this question first (already asked in #23):
"So are you saying that the new Jerusalem has already arrived on earth? Where is it? Brooklyn New York? (JW HQ) "
Try answering the the questions regarding the scripture you took that question from and we might have something to talk about. If you cannot answer them, you have no understanding about what you are asking.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 16, 2013, 05:32:17 am
Jem,

Quote
When any of you can show me one scripture (in an accepted literal translation) in which the Father or his son directly acknowledges Jesus as the Almighty or the holy spirit as the Almighty, we might have something to discuss.

As you said yourself: "Does repeating yourself make it any more true?" yet you have said things like this ad nauseam (not nauseum). A rational person will look at what the Bible does say not at what it doesn't say. What does the Bible mean rather than why doesn't the Bible say exactly what I want it to say. Have you actually read AAQ's OPs to this thread? Only the JWs have to produce their own distorted version of the Bible.

More to come.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 16, 2013, 06:25:54 am
Is there a direct scripture where the Father or Son also acknowledge that Jesus is Michael, or a scripture where Jesus says I am Michael?

To be fair, to reach these conclusions alot of different scriptures need to be used to make these claims.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 16, 2013, 08:09:08 am
Snoochies,
Good point about Michael +1.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 16, 2013, 08:55:38 am
I'm just waiting for someone to engage my exegesis.  As lapwing pointed out, much of it is new.  However, if someone thinks they have responded to it then they are free to copy and paste.  That's pretty easy.  Nonetheless, I recommend that people make sure to read the OP (or the relevant section) before responding. Thanks.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 16, 2013, 12:04:35 pm
Is there a direct scripture where the Father or Son also acknowledge that Jesus is Michael, or a scripture where Jesus says I am Michael?




Malachi 3:1 refers to Jesus as an angel -




Bible in Basic English
See, I am sending my servant, and he will make ready the way before me; and the Lord, whom you are looking for, will suddenly come to his Temple; and the angel of the agreement, in whom you have delight, see, he is coming, says the Lord of armies.


Douay-Rheims Bible
Behold I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts.


Darby Bible Translation
Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly come to his temple, and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 16, 2013, 12:07:07 pm
The word means messenger or representative.  Angel is actually a subsidiary meaning. Thus, to use it that way as a proof text that Jesus isn't God would be to beg the question.  (This is setting aside the exegetical difficulties of the passage as I wrote my OT exegetical on it actually.)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 16, 2013, 03:39:10 pm
Is there a direct scripture where the Father or Son also acknowledge that Jesus is Michael, or a scripture where Jesus says I am Michael?




Malachi 3:1 refers to Jesus as an angel -




Bible in Basic English
See, I am sending my servant, and he will make ready the way before me; and the Lord, whom you are looking for, will suddenly come to his Temple; and the angel of the agreement, in whom you have delight, see, he is coming, says the Lord of armies.


Douay-Rheims Bible
Behold I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts.


Darby Bible Translation
Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly come to his temple, and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts.

NIV
3 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 16, 2013, 05:34:41 pm
Jem,

Quote
When any of you can show me one scripture (in an accepted literal translation) in which the Father or his son directly acknowledges Jesus as the Almighty or the holy spirit as the Almighty, we might have something to discuss.

As you said yourself: "Does repeating yourself make it any more true?" yet you have said things like this ad nauseam (not nauseum).

Matt 23:24  ;D

Quote
A rational person will look at what the Bible does say not at what it doesn't say. What does the Bible mean rather than why doesn't the Bible say exactly what I want it to say. Have you actually read AAQ's OPs to this thread? Only the JWs have to produce their own distorted version of the Bible.

Do you consider yourself to be a rational person lapwing?

I see the trinitarians here doing exactly what they accuse me of doing. If you stop...I will too  OK?  ;)

Have you ever actually investigated the translations that most people use to "prove" their doctrines?

Let me give you just one example for the KJV supporters. (I know you don't lapwing, but just for the record to demonstrate the point)

A favorite scripture...John 8:58 (a recurrent chestnut among the trinitarian supporters.)

"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” (NASB)

" Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (KJV)

Now look at how the NKJV renders that scripture....

"Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

All of a sudden, "I AM" is capitalized to suggest a title, rather than the simple statement that Jesus was making about his age.

Concerning the expression that Jesus' statement is linked to (Exodus 3:14)

“I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Heb., ה ר ה (’Eh·yeh′ ’Asher′ ’Eh·yeh′), God’s own self-designation; Leeser, “I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE”; Rotherham, “I Will Become whatsoever I please.” Gr., E·go′ ei·mi ho on, “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One”; Lat., e′go sum qui sum, “I am Who I am.” ’Eh·yeh′ comes from the Heb. verb ha·yah′, “become; prove to be.” Here ’Eh·yeh′ is in the imperfect state, first person sing., meaning “I shall become”; or, “I shall prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. Compare Gen 2:4 ftn, “Jehovah,” where the kindred, but different, Heb. verb ha·wah′ appears in the divine name.

"And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."
(Exodus 3:14, 15 KJV)

Now the NKJV....

" And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’ (Exodus 3:14, 15 NKJV)

The "Lord God" here is YHWH.
God is stating his personal name. Please note: This is not a name that man has given to his Creator, but THE name that God gave to man to identify him as the only true God for 'all the generations' to come.

The title is capitalized but God's personal name is missing and the title used to substitute for the tetragrammaton is not capitalized at all. Do you find that odd?

To Lazarus' sister, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" (John 11:24)

Do you know how many times Jesus used the expression "I am"? (E·go′ ei·mi)
Why out of all the times Jesus used that expression do trinitarians single out John 8:58 as him claiming to be God?

Do you see the biased translating lapwing?

Multiply this by every instance where the divine name is substituted in God's own word and you have a complete picture of how unreliable those translation really are when emphasizing their own bias towards the trinity. It is misleading and completely dishonest.

This is the reason why JW's published a more reliable and accurate translation. One where the scriptures are simply translated as they are written and God's personal and precious name is restored to its rightful place.

Quote
More to come.
Are you trawling the anti JW sites again? Why do you bother?.....you only end up with egg on your face.

You are putting your trust in those who lie. If that is your choice, then go for it. I know what I believe and why I believe it. I have studied the scriptures thoroughly to make sure that what I believe is true...have you?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 16, 2013, 05:37:37 pm
Jem,

If you want to engage my exegesis of John 8.58 then you are free to do so.

Also, I suggest that if people want to discuss something with Jem that they do so on a different thread so that this thread can focus on the evidence and exegesis I presented.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 16, 2013, 05:45:56 pm
Is there a direct scripture where the Father or Son also acknowledge that Jesus is Michael, or a scripture where Jesus says I am Michael?

To be fair, to reach these conclusions alot of different scriptures need to be used to make these claims.

Consider this Snooch....JW's have no 'doctrine' concerning Michael. It is a belief based on scripture.

"The prefix “arch,” meaning “chief” or “principal,” implies that there is only one archangel, the chief angel; in the Scriptures, “archangel” is never found in the plural. First Thessalonians 4:16, in speaking of the preeminence of the archangel and the authority of his office, does so in reference to the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ:The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” It is, therefore, not without significance that the only name directly associated with the word “archangel” is Michael.—Jude 9

At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel. (Why else would he speak with an Archangel's voice?)
This text depicts him as descending from heaven with “a commanding call.” It is only logical, then, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Matt 28:18; Rev 17:14) If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.

The book of Revelation (12:7, 10, 12) specifically mentions Michael in connection with the establishment of God’s Kingdom and links this event with trouble for the earth: “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ‘Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down . . . On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea.’” Jesus Christ is later depicted as leading the heavenly armies in war against the nations of the earth. (Rev 19:11-16)" (WT sources)

Unlike Christendom's attitude to the trinity, making it a foundational doctrine of the church, our belief about Michael is based on what the Bible actually says about him. That is the difference.


Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 16, 2013, 05:49:42 pm
Again, Jem, you are free to engage my exegesis in this thread.  If you want to talk about Michael then you can start another thread.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 16, 2013, 05:51:35 pm
I know why you believe Jesus to be Michael Jem, what I was getting at is that at no time does Jesus ever say "I am Michael", and God never says "Here is Jesus, who is Michael" or something like that.

You ask Trinitarians to produce such scripture that doesn't exist, it goes both ways. I can see why both sides of the story believe what they believe though according to scripture, but on both sides, none have direct blatant quotes you desire.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 16, 2013, 05:53:09 pm
Jem,

If you want to engage my exegesis of John 8.58 then you are free to do so.

Also, I suggest that if people want to discuss something with Jem that they do so on a different thread so that this thread can focus on the evidence and exegesis I presented.

LOL  First you ask for response to your "exegesis" and when one is provided you get into a huff about other questions being addressed. These all pertain to the OP.

Is Jesus God or is he Michael?

How many times have you derailed other people's threads with other questions AAQ? Seriously. We are being a little precious aren't we?  ???

Threads have a life of their own. Just because you give birth to them doesn't mean you get to dictate their life forever.

Lighten up.

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 16, 2013, 06:07:25 pm
I know why you believe Jesus to be Michael Jem, what I was getting at is that at no time does Jesus ever say "I am Michael", and God never says "Here is Jesus, who is Michael" or something like that.

You ask Trinitarians to produce such scripture that doesn't exist, it goes both ways. I can see why both sides of the story believe what they believe though according to scripture, but on both sides, none have direct blatant quotes you desire.

Its not a doctrine Snooch. It's a belief....it is attached to the question of who exactly Jesus is, both before his human birth and after his return to heaven? If he is not Almighty God (and no scripture says he is) could he be another personage in heaven who is closely related to all the Father's activities and who has the role of Logos as well as Chief of the angels?  We consider the possibilities.

In the invisible realm there is order and rank among the angels. The foremost angel, both in power and authority, is Michael, the only archangel. (Dan 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9; Rev 12:7) Because of his preeminence and his being called “the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [God’s] people,” he is presumed to be the angel that led Israel through the wilderness. (Ex 23:20-23)

That being said, you are absolutely right, there is no direct statement saying that Jesus is Michael, BUT nothing in our belief system falls apart if it is proven that Jesus is not Michael. It is a mere belief, not a doctrine.

Everything falls apart for trinitarians if Jesus is not God. Do you see the difference?  ???
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 16, 2013, 06:08:00 pm
I'm not sure why you are getting upset, but if you think the Thessalonians passage is actually a challenge to the fact that Jesus is God then I can address it for you.

Notice what your translation says, "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” (NWT)

Is that the right translation of the verse?

Here's the verse in Greek: ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ, καταβήσεται ἀπ᾿ οὐρανοῦ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον,

Let's do a literal translation: for Himself the Lord with a shout of command, with a voice of an archangel, and with a trumpet of God, will come down from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Now, the literal translation shows that the Lord [Jesus] has a shout of command, a voice of an archangel, the trumpet of God accompanying His descent from heaven.  Nowhere does it say that the voice of the archangel is Jesus' voice.  Thus, that is a mistranslation by the NWT because they are presupposing that Jesus is Michael the archangel.  Their translation is due to bias and not due to the Greek.  Hence, this verse does not show that Jesus is an archangel and is thus does not show that Jesus is not God.

Also, you have still not engaged my exegesis from the OP.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 16, 2013, 06:13:54 pm
I know why you believe Jesus to be Michael Jem, what I was getting at is that at no time does Jesus ever say "I am Michael", and God never says "Here is Jesus, who is Michael" or something like that.

You ask Trinitarians to produce such scripture that doesn't exist, it goes both ways. I can see why both sides of the story believe what they believe though according to scripture, but on both sides, none have direct blatant quotes you desire.

Its not a doctrine Snooch. It's a belief....it is attached to the question of who exactly Jesus is, both before his human birth and after his return to heaven? If he is not Almighty God (and no scripture says he is) could he be another personage in heaven who is closely related to all the Father's activities and who has the role of Logos as well as Chief of the angels?  We consider the possibilities.

In the invisible realm there is order and rank among the angels. The foremost angel, both in power and authority, is Michael, the only archangel. (Dan 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9; Rev 12:7) Because of his preeminence and his being called “the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [God’s] people,” he is presumed to be the angel that led Israel through the wilderness. (Ex 23:20-23)

That being said, you are absolutely right, there is no direct statement saying that Jesus is Michael, BUT nothing in our belief system falls apart if it is proven that Jesus is not Michael. It is a mere belief, not a doctrine.

Everything falls apart for trinitarians if Jesus is not God. Do you see the difference?  ???

Thanks Jem.

Yeah he could be, might be, might not be but Jesus is still Jesus :)

As I said in another thread, I don't think we need to do theological gymnastics to understand the message Christ brought to us and follow otherwise it would be impossible to spread his message.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 16, 2013, 06:17:35 pm
I'm not sure why you are getting upset, but if you think the Thessalonians passage is actually a challenge to the fact that Jesus is God then I can address it for you.

Notice what your translation says, "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” (NWT)

Is that the right translation of the verse?

Here's the verse in Greek: ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ, καταβήσεται ἀπ᾿ οὐρανοῦ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον,

Let's do a literal translation: for Himself the Lord with a shout of command, with a voice of an archangel, and with a trumpet of God, will come down from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Now, the literal translation shows that the Lord [Jesus] has a shout of command, a voice of an archangel, the trumpet of God accompanying His descent from heaven.  Nowhere does it say that the voice of the archangel is Jesus' voice.  Thus, that is a mistranslation by the NWT because they are presupposing that Jesus is Michael the archangel.  Their translation is due to bias and not due to the Greek.  Hence, this verse does not show that Jesus is an archangel and is thus does not show that Jesus is not God.

"The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” (NWT)

" for Himself the Lord with a shout of command, with a voice of an archangel, and with a trumpet of God, will come down from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first." (undisclosed translation)

You actually see a difference in the meaning of these two "translations"? Sorry I see exactly the same meaning in both.  :-\

Quote
Also, you have still not engaged my exegesis from the OP.

I could do with the rest of your "exegesis" what I showed you with John 8:58, but I do not have the time or the inclination to rehash everything I have already stated.

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 16, 2013, 06:24:00 pm
I know why you believe Jesus to be Michael Jem, what I was getting at is that at no time does Jesus ever say "I am Michael", and God never says "Here is Jesus, who is Michael" or something like that.

You ask Trinitarians to produce such scripture that doesn't exist, it goes both ways. I can see why both sides of the story believe what they believe though according to scripture, but on both sides, none have direct blatant quotes you desire.

Its not a doctrine Snooch. It's a belief....it is attached to the question of who exactly Jesus is, both before his human birth and after his return to heaven? If he is not Almighty God (and no scripture says he is) could he be another personage in heaven who is closely related to all the Father's activities and who has the role of Logos as well as Chief of the angels?  We consider the possibilities.

In the invisible realm there is order and rank among the angels. The foremost angel, both in power and authority, is Michael, the only archangel. (Dan 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9; Rev 12:7) Because of his preeminence and his being called “the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [God’s] people,” he is presumed to be the angel that led Israel through the wilderness. (Ex 23:20-23)

That being said, you are absolutely right, there is no direct statement saying that Jesus is Michael, BUT nothing in our belief system falls apart if it is proven that Jesus is not Michael. It is a mere belief, not a doctrine.

Everything falls apart for trinitarians if Jesus is not God. Do you see the difference?  ???

Thanks Jem.

Yeah he could be, might be, might not be but Jesus is still Jesus :)

As I said in another thread, I don't think we need to do theological gymnastics to understand the message Christ brought to us and follow otherwise it would be impossible to spread his message.

Yes indeed. But giving Jesus his rightful place in the main issue of the whole Bible is important. There is one Universal Sovereign and this One true God shares his godship with no created being.

If we give the status of "Sovereign Lord" to the wrong being, this will affect our salvation by making us guilty of breaking the first commandment. It is a very serious issue Snooch. We must be certain about what we believe. It affects the message that we preach.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 16, 2013, 06:27:57 pm
Quote from: Jem
"The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” (NWT)

" for Himself the Lord with a shout of command, with a voice of an archangel, and with a trumpet of God, will come down from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first." (undisclosed translation)

You actually see a difference in the meaning of these two "translations"? Sorry I see exactly the same meaning in both.  :-\

Yes, in that the former gives connotations that are not there.  Nonetheless, even from the NWT it does not say that His voice is the voice of an archangel.  It merely says that when He descends there will be the voice of an archangel.

Quote
I could do with the rest of your "exegesis" what I showed you with John 8:58, but I do not have the time or the inclination to rehash everything I have already stated.

You literally did not engage my exegesis on that passage at all.  You merely went on a rant about biased translations that are trying to make explicit to the reader what the verse says.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 16, 2013, 06:34:25 pm
I know why you believe Jesus to be Michael Jem, what I was getting at is that at no time does Jesus ever say "I am Michael", and God never says "Here is Jesus, who is Michael" or something like that.

You ask Trinitarians to produce such scripture that doesn't exist, it goes both ways. I can see why both sides of the story believe what they believe though according to scripture, but on both sides, none have direct blatant quotes you desire.

Its not a doctrine Snooch. It's a belief....it is attached to the question of who exactly Jesus is, both before his human birth and after his return to heaven? If he is not Almighty God (and no scripture says he is) could he be another personage in heaven who is closely related to all the Father's activities and who has the role of Logos as well as Chief of the angels?  We consider the possibilities.

In the invisible realm there is order and rank among the angels. The foremost angel, both in power and authority, is Michael, the only archangel. (Dan 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9; Rev 12:7) Because of his preeminence and his being called “the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [God’s] people,” he is presumed to be the angel that led Israel through the wilderness. (Ex 23:20-23)

That being said, you are absolutely right, there is no direct statement saying that Jesus is Michael, BUT nothing in our belief system falls apart if it is proven that Jesus is not Michael. It is a mere belief, not a doctrine.

Everything falls apart for trinitarians if Jesus is not God. Do you see the difference?  ???

Thanks Jem.

Yeah he could be, might be, might not be but Jesus is still Jesus :)

As I said in another thread, I don't think we need to do theological gymnastics to understand the message Christ brought to us and follow otherwise it would be impossible to spread his message.

Yes indeed. But giving Jesus his rightful place in the main issue of the whole Bible is important. There is one Universal Sovereign and this One true God shares his godship with no created being.

If we give the status of "Sovereign Lord" to the wrong being, this will affect our salvation by making us guilty of breaking the first commandment. It is a very serious issue Snooch. We must be certain about what we believe. It affects the message that we preach.

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Is Jesus enough, without him I would not know the Father.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Mrlondondude on July 16, 2013, 07:16:35 pm
I have no idea how you could read this and not conclude that Jesus is God.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 16, 2013, 07:34:44 pm
I have no idea how you could read this and not conclude that Jesus is God.

Well I'll take that as a compliment so thanks. :)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 16, 2013, 09:14:31 pm

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

That scripture in context....

"Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”  And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.”  He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”  Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”  And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.  I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”  Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ." (Matt 16:13-20 NASB)

Jesus first asked who men were saying he was?.....then he asked "But who do you say that I am?". Peter had a perfect opportunity to say that he believed that Jesus was God...but he didn't. He correctly identified Jesus as "the Christ, the Son of the living God." He didn't say "You are the Christ, the living God" but "the SON of the living God." Who did Jesus say had revealed that to the apostles? His Father in heaven.

Jesus is the "image" of his Father. (Col 1:15,16) Is an 'image' the person themselves or a reflection of the person? If I picked up a photo of you, is it you? Jesus is just like his Father in so many ways.

No one can come to the Father except through the mediator; the 'go-between' with God and man.

If Jesus is God, why don't we need a mediator between us and him too?

Quote
Is Jesus enough, without him I would not know the Father.

I hear you, but how much do you really know the Father as opposed to how well you feel you know Jesus?

If you place Jesus on equal footing with the only Sovereign in existence, then you are breaking his laws.

When Jesus rejects the ones who call him "Lord" at the judgment time, why do you think he calls them "workers of lawlessness"? These are law breakers, but they have no idea why Christ says he "never knew them". He has not ever acknowledged those who place the son on an equal footing his Father, from the beginning. When the trinity walked in the door, Christ left the building.

(Matt 7:21-23) Please consider these things carefully. We only get one chance to get it right.  :(
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 16, 2013, 09:38:08 pm

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

That scripture in context....

"Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”  And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.”  He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”  Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”  And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.  I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”  Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ." (Matt 16:13-20 NASB)

Jesus first asked who men were saying he was?.....then he asked "But who do you say that I am?". Peter had a perfect opportunity to say that he believed that Jesus was God...but he didn't. He correctly identified Jesus as "the Christ, the Son of the living God." He didn't say "You are the Christ, the living God" but "the SON of the living God." Who did Jesus say had revealed that to the apostles? His Father in heaven.

Jesus is the "image" of his Father. (Col 1:15,16) Is an 'image' the person themselves or a reflection of the person? If I picked up a photo of you, is it you? Jesus is just like his Father in so many ways.

No one can come to the Father except through the mediator; the 'go-between' with God and man.

If Jesus is God, why don't we need a mediator between us and him too?

Quote
Is Jesus enough, without him I would not know the Father.

I hear you, but how much do you really know the Father as opposed to how well you feel you know Jesus?

If you place Jesus on equal footing with the only Sovereign in existence, then you are breaking his laws.

When Jesus rejects the ones who call him "Lord" at the judgment time, why do you think he calls them "workers of lawlessness"? These are law breakers, but they have no idea why Christ says he "never knew them". He has not ever acknowledged those who place the son on an equal footing his Father, from the beginning. When the trinity walked in the door, Christ left the building.

(Matt 7:21-23) Please consider these things carefully. We only get one chance to get it right.  :(

Thanks Jem, but I think you are trying to defeat an argument I haven't even brought up ;)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 16, 2013, 10:12:06 pm
I know why you believe Jesus to be Michael Jem, what I was getting at is that at no time does Jesus ever say "I am Michael", and God never says "Here is Jesus, who is Michael" or something like that.

You ask Trinitarians to produce such scripture that doesn't exist, it goes both ways. I can see why both sides of the story believe what they believe though according to scripture, but on both sides, none have direct blatant quotes you desire.

Snooch, Jesus being Michael is not a doctrine. Nothing in our doctrinal beliefs is altered if Jesus and Michael prove to be different individuals.

If the trinity is proven to be false, Christendom's whole building collapses. It is not a fair comparison IMO. sorry.  :-\
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 16, 2013, 10:24:18 pm
Feel free to engage my exegesis then, Jem.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 16, 2013, 10:29:46 pm
I know why you believe Jesus to be Michael Jem, what I was getting at is that at no time does Jesus ever say "I am Michael", and God never says "Here is Jesus, who is Michael" or something like that.

You ask Trinitarians to produce such scripture that doesn't exist, it goes both ways. I can see why both sides of the story believe what they believe though according to scripture, but on both sides, none have direct blatant quotes you desire.

Snooch, Jesus being Michael is not a doctrine. Nothing in our doctrinal beliefs is altered if Jesus and Michael prove to be different individuals.

If the trinity is proven to be false, Christendom's whole building collapses. It is not a fair comparison IMO. sorry.  :-\

Just had to put this verse in :)

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

And that rock is..... ::)

Hey, still want to hear your thoughts about the TV show.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 16, 2013, 10:58:07 pm

Just had to put this verse in :)

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

And that rock is..... ::)

Jesus of course. But who provided the teachings that Jesus brought to build his church? He said none of it was his, but all of what he taught came from his Father.

That makes the 'rock' solidly attached to the mountain of Jehovah's sovereignty.

Quote
Hey, still want to hear your thoughts about the TV show.
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/god-and-lamb-6021968.msg1275161471.html#msg1275161471 (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/god-and-lamb-6021968.msg1275161471.html#msg1275161471)  ;D
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 16, 2013, 11:45:03 pm

Jesus of course. But who provided the teachings that Jesus brought to build his church? He said none of it was his, but all of what he taught came from his Father.

That makes the 'rock' solidly attached to the mountain of Jehovah's sovereignty.



(http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/2060099.jpg)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 16, 2013, 11:47:26 pm
Five pages later and no one has challenged my exegesis.  I guess it stands then.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 16, 2013, 11:54:17 pm
Five pages later and no one has challenged my exegesis.  I guess it stands then.


Waits for another meme......
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 17, 2013, 12:45:14 am
Five pages later and no one has challenged my exegesis.  I guess it stands then.

(http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/2060264.jpg)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Mrlondondude on July 17, 2013, 02:56:59 am
I have no idea how you could read this and not conclude that Jesus is God.

Well I'll take that as a compliment so thanks. :)

I thought it was really good. Well played. Given me a lot to think about.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: R3 on July 17, 2013, 04:05:43 am
It's not a topic I'm particularly interested in but you get an applaud for taking the time to work through all of this. Congrats on reaching 100 AAQ :P
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 09:26:53 am
Ms,

Thanks. Well I'm glad.

Rc,

Thanks also. Maybe at 100 it's my chance to leave. Haha.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: jbejon on July 17, 2013, 01:59:53 pm
Is there a direct scripture where the Father or Son also acknowledge that Jesus is Michael, or a scripture where Jesus says I am Michael?

To be fair, to reach these conclusions alot of different scriptures need to be used to make these claims.

Consider this Snooch....JW's have no 'doctrine' concerning Michael. It is a belief based on scripture.

"The prefix “arch,” meaning “chief” or “principal,” implies that there is only one archangel, the chief angel; in the Scriptures, “archangel” is never found in the plural. First Thessalonians 4:16, in speaking of the preeminence of the archangel and the authority of his office, does so in reference to the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ:The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” It is, therefore, not without significance that the only name directly associated with the word “archangel” is Michael.—Jude 9

At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel. (Why else would he speak with an Archangel's voice?)
This text depicts him as descending from heaven with “a commanding call.” It is only logical, then, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Matt 28:18; Rev 17:14) If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.

The book of Revelation (12:7, 10, 12) specifically mentions Michael in connection with the establishment of God’s Kingdom and links this event with trouble for the earth: “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ‘Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down . . . On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea.’” Jesus Christ is later depicted as leading the heavenly armies in war against the nations of the earth. (Rev 19:11-16)" (WT sources)

Unlike Christendom's attitude to the trinity, making it a foundational doctrine of the church, our belief about Michael is based on what the Bible actually says about him. That is the difference.

Interesting.  I'd like to see, then, if you're willing, how much wiggle-room there is within Watchtower theology.

Consider the claim that there is only one archangel--a fairly non-essential belief in the big scheme of things, one would imagine.

Here are the two claims you've advanced in favour of it.

Quote
Claim #1:  The prefix “arch”, meaning “chief” or “principal”, implies that there is only one archangel, the chief angel.

I don't think this is true.  For instance, there's more than one ἀρχιερεύς (chief priest), e.g., Matt 2.4, there's more than one αρχισυναγωγων (chief of the synagogue), e.g., Mark 5.22, and so on.

Quote
Claim #2:  In the Scriptures, “archangel” is never found in the plural.

This is true, but I don't think it therefore follows that only one "archangel" exists.  After all, the word only appears twice in the entire NT, so we're not exactly working with a big sample here.  Consider, by way of analogy, the word ἀρχιτρίκλινος (head waiter).  ἀρχιτρίκλινος occurs three times in the NT, always in the singular, but I don't think it therefore follows that there was only one such person in existence in Israel.

In sum, then, I don't think the arguments for there only being one archangel are very good.

By way of contrast, Daniel clearly refers to Michael as "one of the chief princes" (cf. Dan 10.13), which clearly implies that there was more than one being of his particular status.

So, how about it?  What do you think about the idea that Michael isn't the only archangel?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 17, 2013, 03:17:06 pm
Also, there is no definite article: it says "a voice of an archangel", if anything.  A clear hint that one of a larger number was to herald the coming.

And if Jesus is Himself the archangel in "a voice of an archangel", then by symmetry He would also be God in "a trumpet of God".  (After all, it would be a highly peculiar construction if kurios and archaggelou were to refer to the same person.)
Maybe Jesus is Michael the archangel, who is God.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Questions11 on July 17, 2013, 03:22:03 pm
I do believe that some interpret Michael as Jesus, but I can't recall the denomination ...
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: jbejon on July 17, 2013, 03:22:39 pm
Also, there is no definite article: it says "the voice of an archangel", if anything.  A clear hint that one of a larger number was to herald the coming.

Yeah, I tend to see the lack of an article there as less telling inasmuch as it relates to a genitive following another noun (i.e., given that it's φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου, paralleling σάλπιγγι θεοῦ), but you might be right...
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 03:24:07 pm
I think both JWs and seventh day Adventists believe that.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 17, 2013, 04:21:04 pm

Interesting.  I'd like to see, then, if you're willing, how much wiggle-room there is within Watchtower theology.

I did mention that this is not a doctrine, but a belief based on what the rest of scripture says.

I have presented the reasons why we believe this but I hardly believe that it is worth putting it on the same level as the trinity...do you?

The only reason why trinitarians recoil at this suggestion is because God can't be an angel. That is true....but we don't believe that Jesus is Almighty God, so it is perfectly reasonable for us to conclude that "the son of God" could well be like the other "sons of God".....all spirit beings with great power. The pre-human Jesus was unique, it is true, but an angelic 'creation', none the less. (Col 1:15,16)

If you would like to start a thread, go ahead, It will probably only end up being just another pro-trinity argument with hostile responses.  ::) the smiters here are in overdrive. LOL...must give them some kind of strange satisfaction, since they can't smite me personally.  ::) so childish and vengeful.

I wonder if they had to own the smites and identify themselves, whether they would be so liberal in dishing them out. Cowards IMO.

Quote
So, how about it?  What do you think about the idea that Michael isn't the only archangel?

It might be good to explore the possibilities.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: jbejon on July 17, 2013, 04:40:48 pm

Interesting.  I'd like to see, then, if you're willing, how much wiggle-room there is within Watchtower theology.

I did mention that this is not a doctrine, but a belief based on what the rest of scripture says.

I have presented the reasons why we believe this but I hardly believe that it is worth putting it on the same level as the trinity...do you?

Not at all.  That's why I called it "a fairly non-essential belief in the big scheme of things".

We needn't involve the identification of Michael with Jesus though.  I'm simply asking, "What do you think of the arguments I've given for Michael being one of many archangels?".
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 17, 2013, 05:03:46 pm

Interesting.  I'd like to see, then, if you're willing, how much wiggle-room there is within Watchtower theology.

I did mention that this is not a doctrine, but a belief based on what the rest of scripture says.

I have presented the reasons why we believe this but I hardly believe that it is worth putting it on the same level as the trinity...do you?

Not at all.  That's why I called it "a fairly non-essential belief in the big scheme of things".

We needn't involve the identification of Michael with Jesus though.  I'm simply asking, "What do you think of the arguments I've given for Michael being one of many archangels?".

All arguments appear to be the way they are presented jbej, if you'd like to explore the possibilities, start a thread and I will be happy to contribute.  :)

From memory, there are only two names mentioned in connection with the term " his angels" and that was Jesus and Michael. So I personally do not believe that there is more than one "commander in chief" of the angels.

"Arch" in English means what?

How was that term used in the Scriptures? Was it ever used in connection with Christianity?

That term in a religious sense means what?

We can explore these things if you wish......? It's an interesting topic.

I will be away today, but will get back to discuss things later this evening. (Aussie time)

Over to you.....
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Satarack on July 17, 2013, 05:46:59 pm
Five pages later and no one has challenged my exegesis.  I guess it stands then.

Actually, there's one passage you used that I know for a fact that doesn't explicitly support (but neither denies) Jesus' co-divinity with the father.  John 1:1.  This was a favorite passage for the supporters of Arianism, because at face value it appears to support their subordinationist view of Jesus.  Why?  Because it only calls the logos theos, and does not use the definite article.  While theos in greek could be used to refer to any kind of divine being, ton theos can only be used to refer to the almighty god.  It does not explicitly say that the logos is ton theos, only that the logos is theos.

The concept of the logos is a greek one, and was often considered to be a subordinate agent to the almighty God.  To many greeks, the physical world was imperfect, and it was impossible that the perfect almighty god would interact with the world directly.  So they postulated hierarchies of divine beings acting as intermediaries for the true almighty God.  The logos was thought to be the highest of these intermediaries, interacting directly with the true god and being his avatar in creation.  Being, essentially, a miniature version of the true almighty god himself.  Many early Christians had been taught this sort of theology prior to converting to Christianity, and John 1:1 seemed to them to affirm this sort of theology.

BUT having said all that, there's a handy argument you can use for proving that if the Gospel is true, Jesus is co-substantial with God.

1.  In salvation, Jesus unites us finite beings with the infinite being of God.
2.  Only an infinite being at the same level as the almighty God is capable of bridging the infinite gap between us finite beings and God.
3.  From 1, Jesus bridges the infinite gap between finite beings and the infinite God.
4.  Therefore Jesus is at the same level as the almighty God.
5.  But there is only 1 God, not 2 almighty Gods.
6.  Therefore Jesus and the almighty God share the same being.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Archsage on July 17, 2013, 07:35:18 pm
Ah I really enjoyed your opening posts, Asking! It's really not often that I get to see someone strongly support a stance and really examine its evidence and oppositions with such detail and fervor. While it leaves me pretty disappointed that no one who disagrees with you would explicitly state there case here, I think it's great nonetheless. If it means anything, I'll be using this thread of yours as reference for my person defences of the deity of Christ. I thank God for people like you, and I pray that he blesses you for your faithfulness in this regard!  ;D
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 17, 2013, 07:50:57 pm
::) the smiters here are in overdrive. LOL...must give them some kind of strange satisfaction, since they can't smite me personally. ::) so childish and vengeful.

I wonder if they had to own the smites and identify themselves, whether they would be so liberal in dishing them out. Cowards IMO.


"“Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU." -Matthew 5:11,12
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 17, 2013, 07:59:34 pm
Five pages later and no one has challenged my exegesis.  I guess it stands then.

Actually, there's one passage you used that I know for a fact that doesn't explicitly support (but neither denies) Jesus' co-divinity with the father.  John 1:1.  This was a favorite passage for the supporters of Arianism, because at face value it appears to support their subordinationist view of Jesus.  Why?  Because it only calls the logos theos, and does not use the definite article.  While theos in greek could be used to refer to any kind of divine being, ton theos can only be used to refer to the almighty god.  It does not explicitly say that the logos is ton theos, only that the logos is theos.

The concept of the logos is a greek one, and was often considered to be a subordinate agent to the almighty God.  To many greeks, the physical world was imperfect, and it was impossible that the perfect almighty god would interact with the world directly.  So they postulated hierarchies of divine beings acting as intermediaries for the true almighty God.  The logos was thought to be the highest of these intermediaries, interacting directly with the true god and being his avatar in creation.  Being, essentially, a miniature version of the true almighty god himself.  Many early Christians had been taught this sort of theology prior to converting to Christianity, and John 1:1 seemed to them to affirm this sort of theology.

BUT having said all that, there's a handy argument you can use for proving that if the Gospel is true, Jesus is co-substantial with God.

1.  In salvation, Jesus unites us finite beings with the infinite being of God.
2.  Only an infinite being at the same level as the almighty God is capable of bridging the infinite gap between us finite beings and God.
3.  From 1, Jesus bridges the infinite gap between finite beings and the infinite God.
4.  Therefore Jesus is at the same level as the almighty God.
5.  But there is only 1 God, not 2 almighty Gods.
6.  Therefore Jesus and the almighty God share the same being.


Problem is Jehovah God clearly states nothing and no one is identical to him in any way, shape, form or conception. This is why only he is ever celebrated as "The Most High", "The Almighty", "The Sovereign Lord", and "Creator."
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Archsage on July 17, 2013, 08:05:07 pm
::) the smiters here are in overdrive. LOL...must give them some kind of strange satisfaction, since they can't smite me personally. ::) so childish and vengeful.

I wonder if they had to own the smites and identify themselves, whether they would be so liberal in dishing them out. Cowards IMO.

"“Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU." -Matthew 5:11,12

Forgive me if I'm being a bit forward, but that verse only applies to those who are being reproached, persecuted, or lied on for the sake of the Christ. The problem here, however, is that we are all defending the Christ, in one way or another. One party for His deity, and the other as him being some angelic creature. So I don't think it is enough to simply quote this sole teaching. It still leaves too many questions unanswered.

Really the question is, was Jesus just some angel, or was He God? On my part, I take heart into this verse:

"And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to open the scroll and loose its seals?”But neither in heaven nor upon earth nor underneath the earth was there a single one able to open the scroll or to look into it.And I gave way to a great deal of weeping because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. But one of the elders says to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion that is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.”" Revelation 5:2-5 NWT

I do not see Him as an angel here. What's interesting is the "neither in heaven, nor upon the earth, nor underneath the earth". And then it points to Jesus.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 17, 2013, 08:51:18 pm
The problem here, however, is that we are all defending the Christ


Noooo, you're defending the heresy that are the Athanasian and Nicene Creeds.


We're the ones actually defending Christ and his God, Jehovah.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 09:18:18 pm
Satarack,

I looked at the construction for John 1.1 quite in depth so I'm not sure if you looked over it.  The construction and reading I gave it is actually what academic scholarship agrees with (I can cite sources if you want).  As to the logos, we need to differentiate between a pagan and Jewish understanding.  While it is true that scholars used to think that John's use of logos was from a more pagan perspective and was dependent upon Philo, that has been thrown out the window now.  The Jewishness of John's gospel is widely recognized as the most important factor now so that needs to be the background for the word logos.  And what we find is that the Jewish people used logos as a way to talk about God's action in the world.  Thus, both the construction and the use of the word support my exegesis.

Arch,

You're back! And thanks.  If you are interested in the latest academic books on the subject I can recommend some as it was a topic of study of mine last semester in college.

Max,

You are still free to engage my exegesis.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: philtime on July 17, 2013, 09:19:18 pm
What do you study in college, AAQ?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Archsage on July 17, 2013, 09:21:20 pm
The problem here, however, is that we are all defending the Christ


Noooo, you're defending the heresy that are the Athanasian and Nicene Creeds.


We're the ones actually defending Christ and his God, Jehovah.

Sure, and I'm confident that such a view is easy for you to claim. But can you provide for me teaching that I may believe it?

As I understand it, it was stated that “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” (John 1:3 NWT) and also that . The "him" in this case refers in context to Jesus. Now if this is true, surely Jesus must, then, not have come into existence. Else it would be claiming that He created Himself. Of course that's not true.

So if Jesus had not come into existence, then what is He? Naturally, I take it to mean that Jesus is God -- they are One. But instead you say that Jesus is someone else entirely. So how is it that Jesus is eternal and exists independent of God's creative omnipotence? That would be blasphemy, positing a second god!  :-\
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 09:22:02 pm
What do you study in college, AAQ?

I'm a bible major.  Was that your guess?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: philtime on July 17, 2013, 09:22:42 pm
So on your degree, it will say "bible studies"?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 09:23:53 pm
So on your degree, it will say "bible studies"?

It will say bachelor of arts in Bible.  I attend a Christian college so that I could be a bible major.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: philtime on July 17, 2013, 09:24:54 pm
I see. Okay, I was just curious.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 09:30:05 pm
Alright.  Was that your guess?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Satarack on July 17, 2013, 09:45:27 pm
Satarack,

I looked at the construction for John 1.1 quite in depth so I'm not sure if you looked over it.  The construction and reading I gave it is actually what academic scholarship agrees with (I can cite sources if you want).  As to the logos, we need to differentiate between a pagan and Jewish understanding.  While it is true that scholars used to think that John's use of logos was from a more pagan perspective and was dependent upon Philo, that has been thrown out the window now.  The Jewishness of John's gospel is widely recognized as the most important factor now so that needs to be the background for the word logos.  And what we find is that the Jewish people used logos as a way to talk about God's action in the world.  Thus, both the construction and the use of the word support my exegesis.

The issue isn't greek vs. jewish concepts of the logos, the issue is that the passage doesn't call the logos ton theos, it only calls the logos theos.  This doesn't deny that the logos is co-substantial with the father, but it doesn't explicitly say that the logos is co-substantial with the father.  This makes the passage compatible with views like Arianism, because it doesn't definitively call the logos ton theos.  The second paragraph was only there to explain why the Arian interpretation of John 1:1 seemed natural to many greek speaking converts, which is why Arianism lasted several centuries and why Arians used John 1:1 as a proof text.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 09:47:08 pm
Satarack,

I addressed that in the OP.  If John would have used ton theos then he would have been saying that the logos and the Father are identical which would contradict the earlier clause.  Thus, that isn't a possible construction for what John is trying to say. 
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 17, 2013, 09:49:54 pm
The problem here, however, is that we are all defending the Christ


Noooo, you're defending the heresy that are the Athanasian and Nicene Creeds.


We're the ones actually defending Christ and his God, Jehovah.

Sure, and I'm confident that such a view is easy for you to claim. But can you provide for me teaching that I may believe it?

As I understand it, it was stated that “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” (John 1:3 NWT) and also that . The "him" in this case refers in context to Jesus. Now if this is true, surely Jesus must, then, not have come into existence. Else it would be claiming that He created Himself. Of course that's not true.

So if Jesus had not come into existence, then what is He? Naturally, I take it to mean that Jesus is God -- they are One. But instead you say that Jesus is someone else entirely. So how is it that Jesus is eternal and exists independent of God's creative omnipotence? That would be blasphemy, positing a second god!  :-\

i. "There are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him." - 1 Corinthians 8:5,6

ii. Jehovah calls the judges of ancient Israel gods because of the power and authority they had - Psalms 82:6

iii. Molech, Ashtoreth, Baal, Dagon, Merodach, Zeus, Hermes, and Artemis are some of the gods and goddesses mentioned by name in the Bible. (Leviticus 18:21; Judges 2:13; 16:23; Jeremiah 50:2; Acts 14:12; 19:24)


iv. John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11 and 2 Corinthians 4:4 refer to Satan as the ruler of this world and its god.


v. Jehovah even made Moses a god -
"And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh." - Exodus 7:1

vi. Psalms 8:4,5 - "What is mortal man that you keep him in mind,
And the son of earthling man that you take care of him?
You [Jehovah] also proceeded to make him [Jesus] a little less than godlike ones, and with glory and splendor you then crowned him."
VS.
Hebrews 2:7 - "You [Jehovah] made him [Jesus] a little lower than angels."
Question: Who were the gods described in Psalms 8:5?



Your definition of what it means to be a god, it appears, is what's tripping you up my friend.


Jehovah is called “God of gods” however, this doesn’t mean that the other gods do not exist. Just like saying “King of kings” the other kings do exist. If you say, for example, “Jesus is my best friend”, it doesn’t’ mean that the “Father”, Jehovah, or other human friends you have are false friends.

Why is Jehovah called “God of gods” at Deut 10:17? If the “gods” are all false gods, then are you saying that Jehovah is the God of “false” gods? Someone cannot be called God of “gods” if these other “gods” do not exist same as saying King of kings if other kings do not exist.


Most prominent of all, John 1:18 tells us that Jesus is the “only begotten god” (New American Standard Bible, New World Translation, Amplified Bible, Westcott & Hort Greek Interlinear Bible)

{NOTE: Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς θεὸς (monogenēs theos = "only begotten god") ὁ ὢν είς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο. - John 1:18


All versions, then, that render μονογενὴς θεὸς as "only begotten Son" pervert God's truth.}



The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 410
אֵ֥ל - Transliterated Word: 'el - Phonetic Spelling: ale

Definition
1. god, god-like one, mighty one
1. mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
2. angels
3. god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
4. God, the one true God, Jehovah
2. mighty things in nature
3. strength, power




As Biblical scholars and experts in the ancient Hebrew demonstrate unequivocally here, אֵ֥ל - god - is not limited to Jehovah God, the Creator. Therefore, recognizing Jesus as "the only begotten god" does not pose a problem.


And why is Jesus identified as the "only begotten"? Because "he is the only one of his kind, the only one whom God himself created directly without the agency or cooperation of any creature. He is the only one whom God his Father used in bringing into existence all other creatures. He is the firstborn and chief one among all other angels (Col 1:15, 16; Heb 1:5, 6), which angels the Scriptures call “godlike ones” or “gods.” (Ps 8:4, 5) Therefore, according to some of the oldest and best manuscripts, the Lord Jesus Christ is properly described as “the only-begotten god [Gr., mo·no·ge·nes′ the·os′].”—Joh 1:18, NW, Ro, Sp." - http://bit.ly/16KtJgL
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 09:51:41 pm
"only begotten" is based upon a mistranslation as I pointed out in the OP.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 17, 2013, 10:07:45 pm
"only begotten" is based upon a mistranslation as I pointed out in the OP.
Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς θεὸς (monogenēs theos = "only begotten god") ὁ ὢν είς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο. - John 1:18

All versions, then, that render μονογενὴς θεὸς as "only begotten Son" pervert God's truth.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 10:08:43 pm
But monogenes doesn't translate as only-begotten.  I addressed that in the OP which you are free to read.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 17, 2013, 10:16:46 pm
But monogenes doesn't translate as only-begotten.  I addressed that in the OP which you are free to read.

Greek-English lexicon by John Jeffrey Dodson (2010)
3439: μονογενής
Part of speech:   Adjective
Short definition:   only, only-begotten, unique
Long definition:   only, only-begotten; unique.


Strong's Greek Dictionary by James Strong (1890)
3439
μονογενής (monogenḗs)
from 3441 and 1096; only-born, i.e. sole
:--only (begotten, child).


You were saying?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 10:18:45 pm
Instead of throwing around lexicons (of which I can cite many), you can actually engage what I said about it.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Satarack on July 17, 2013, 10:29:03 pm
Satarack,

I addressed that in the OP.  If John would have used ton theos then he would have been saying that the logos and the Father are identical which would contradict the earlier clause.  Thus, that isn't a possible construction for what John is trying to say. 

Yes, and I'm familiar with arguments like that, I believe Dan Wallace uses an argument like it, where you contrast the way the passage could have been worded and which one John would have used if he wanted to teach Arianism, Orthodoxy, Sebalianism, etc.  But I think you're still missing my point.  The point is that this isn't an explicit proof text, even your analysis you end up having to construct an inductive argument where you list out all the possible sentence constructions and then eliminate all but the actual new testament wording which, the argument goes, John would use if he wanted to teach orthodox theology.  To an Arian or JW however, none of that would matter, the text doesn't explicitly say what we say it says.  And your argument can only enjoy inductive support which means that it's still possible that their interpretation is correct, which is all they care about.

You might object that using the definite article would invite Sebalianism, but if God is a trinity then it would be true that the logos is the God.  And in fact later in John's Gospel Thomas does call Jesus ho theos.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 10:37:40 pm
Wallace, Harris, others.

The reading of John 1.1 that I provide is the only way to read it though when understand what the nature of the verb and the emphasis on "theos" emphasizes.  For instance, in his highly acclaimed book Harris classifies John 1.1 as certain that it is calling Jesus "God."

As to whether it's convincing, I'm not too worried since I'm merely trying to investigate what the bible actually says instead of trying to find something that will persuade those who shift the goal posts.

As to your last paragraph, while it is true that Thomas uses "ho theos" about Jesus in John 20.28, that can't be carried over into saying that it could be used in John 1.1.  It is clear from John 1 that John is using ho theos in that section about the Father.  Thus, to say that the Logos is ton theos would be to say that the Logos is the Father which would be sabellianism (or some other heretical teaching) and thus not possible based upon what John is trying to say.

Btw, I never commented on this, but I did find your argument interesting.  I'll have to reflect on it more though.  Sounds somewhat similar to Anselm's.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 17, 2013, 10:37:53 pm
Instead of throwing around lexicons (of which I can cite many), you can actually engage what I said about it.


Boy, you sure are a glutton for punishment.


Alright then ...


Isaac was Abraham and Sarah's only child.


"Abraham gave everything he had to Isaac, but to the sons of the concubines that Abraham had Abraham gave gifts. Then he sent them away from Isaac his son, while he was still alive, eastward, to the land of the East." - Genesis 25:5,6. The other children Abraham fathered were not from Sarah but his concubines, Hagar and Keturah. (Genesis 16:15; Galatians 4:22-29; 1 Chronicles 1:32)


Now are you ready to tap-out?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 10:40:59 pm
Hebrews 11.17: By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his monogenes son, (NIV)

Now, was Isaac Abraham's only begotten son?  Nope.  However, Isaac was Abraham's unique son.

I said all of this in the OP and you didn't address any of it so I'm wondering if you even read the OP.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Satarack on July 17, 2013, 10:48:50 pm
Btw, I never commented on this, but I did find your argument interesting.  I'll have to reflect on it more though.  Sounds somewhat similar to Anselm's.

I'll have to give credit where credit is due, I got that one from David Bentley Hart.  It's a nice argument, particularly from an Eastern Orthodox perspective which emphasizes our final union with God in the resurrection.  That's a central focus of their theosis Gospel understanding, that our salvation, our deliverance from death and sin, ultimately culminates in our union with our lord and bridegroom.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 10:52:00 pm
I love Orthodoxy and I'm pretty well acquainted with their teachings which I have a lot of affinity for.  Actually, one of the people down at college is Greek orthodox so we discuss theology quite a bit and he appreciates that I know about the councils and the Orthodox teachings.  A lot of people think Greek orthodox means he worships Zeus so I say that quite often to get on his nerves. (I also say other ridiculous things as does he about me being protestant, but it's all in good fun.)  Are you EO?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 17, 2013, 10:59:29 pm
Hebrews 11.17: By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his monogenes son, (NIV)

Now, was Isaac Abraham's only begotten son?  Nope.  However, Isaac was Abraham's unique son.

I said all of this in the OP and you didn't address any of it so I'm wondering if you even read the OP.



Boy, you sure are a glutton for punishment.


Alright then ...


Isaac was Abraham and Sarah's only child.


"Abraham gave everything he had to Isaac, but to the sons of the concubines that Abraham had Abraham gave gifts. Then he sent them away from Isaac his son, while he was still alive, eastward, to the land of the East." - Genesis 25:5,6. The other children Abraham fathered were not from Sarah but his concubines, Hagar and Keturah. (Genesis 16:15; Galatians 4:22-29; 1 Chronicles 1:32)


Now are you ready to tap-out?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 11:03:49 pm
You literally didn't interact with anything I said about monogenes in the Hebrews passage.  All you did was repeat yourself...
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Satarack on July 17, 2013, 11:05:14 pm
I love Orthodoxy and I'm pretty well acquainted with their teachings which I have a lot of affinity for.  Actually, one of the people down at college is Greek orthodox so we discuss theology quite a bit and he appreciates that I know about the councils and the Orthodox teachings.  A lot of people think Greek orthodox means he worships Zeus so I say that quite often to get on his nerves. (I also say other ridiculous things as does he about me being protestant, but it's all in good fun.)  Are you EO?

I'm considering moving to EO eventually, but I was "raised Anglican" which really means I wasn't taught much of anything except that I know the book of common prayer and book of alternative services liturgies by heart.  That's one of the few things I disagree with with Anglicanism and Eastern Orthodoxy, the Eastern Orthodox like to say that their theology is in their liturgy, and this is true, but we don't live in a society dominated by feast days and christian piety any longer.  Teaching through liturgy alone isn't sufficient to deal with all the conflicting philosophies you encounter in your daily lives.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 17, 2013, 11:11:13 pm
Well although I haven't read it myself, I've heard wonderful things about the book of common prayer.  A number of some of my favorite theologians/exegetes/authors are actually Anglican.  Nonetheless, if EO works for you then that's awesome.  I agree that teaching through liturgy doesn't really fit anymore, but it's EO so it's not bound to change. :)  From my understanding, they do have the father of the local church preach which includes teaching.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 18, 2013, 02:08:58 am
You literally didn't interact with anything I said about monogenes in the Hebrews passage.  All you did was repeat yourself...
Argumentum ad lapidem. You’ve done nothing to dispel the arguments presented nor the facts that support them. Try again.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 18, 2013, 03:24:25 am

As I understand it, it was stated that “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” (John 1:3 NWT) and also that . The "him" in this case refers in context to Jesus. Now if this is true, surely Jesus must, then, not have come into existence. Else it would be claiming that He created Himself. Of course that's not true.

The pre-human Jesus was God's "only begotten son". (Monogenes) As Maxx has stated, Isaac was said to be Abraham's "only begotten son" but he was clearly not the only son. Abraham had children by his concubines but the promise was made to Isaac that he would be the one through whom the seed would come. What made Isaac different to Abraham's other sons? His birth came about as a special act of Jehovah's spirit. This is what made him monogenes in his family....despite the fact that he was not even the firstborn of Abraham's sons.

The pre-human Jesus was also brought forth as a special act of Jehovah's spirit. "Only begotten" in his case means that he was the only direct creation of his Father, making him unique. Everything else was made through the agency of this only begotten son. (Col 1:15, 16; Prov 8:22, 30; John 1:3)

Quote
So if Jesus had not come into existence, then what is He? Naturally, I take it to mean that Jesus is God -- they are One. But instead you say that Jesus is someone else entirely. So how is it that Jesus is eternal and exists independent of God's creative omnipotence? That would be blasphemy, positing a second god!  :-\

On the contrary, it is quite clearly stated that Jesus is a created being....."The beginning of the creation by God" (Rev 3:14)

How does an equal part of God have a God? Even after his return, Jesus still spoke of his Father as "MY God" (Rev 3:12)

Make no mistake, Jesus is a god....he is just not "the" God.....the Almighty. This is what John 1:1 states. It was the Logos who became flesh....not "THE God".
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 18, 2013, 03:39:57 am
clearly stated that Jesus is a created being....."The beginning of the creation by God" (Rev 3:14)

The verse in question:

Quote
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

I use NASB as that is the most literally correct of bible translations. Okay, so, where does this say that Jesus was created? It says he was the beginning of the creation of God, not that he was created at the beginning by God or that he was the first created being. You're reading that in, as that is not the only plausible interpretation. In fact, this verse seems to clearly be speaking of Jesus as the one who began creation by The Father creating through Jesus.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 18, 2013, 04:30:36 am
clearly stated that Jesus is a created being....."The beginning of the creation by God" (Rev 3:14)

The verse in question:

Quote
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

I use NASB as that is the most literally correct of bible translations. Okay, so, where does this say that Jesus was created? It says he was the beginning of the creation of God, not that he was created at the beginning by God or that he was the first created being. You're reading that in, as that is not the only plausible interpretation. In fact, this verse seems to clearly be speaking of Jesus as the one who began creation by The Father creating through Jesus.

Curt, either way you read that verse, it says that Jesus is the Faithful and true Witness, the BEGINNING of the CREATION of God. He was the beginning of creation.

If Jesus is God, he had no beginning.

If Jesus is God, how can the Father be his God? (Rev 3:12)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 18, 2013, 04:39:32 am
Yeah, I tend to see the lack of an article there as less telling inasmuch as it relates to a genitive following another noun (i.e., given that it's φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου, paralleling σάλπιγγι θεοῦ),
Oh, I agree that it is not very strong - I was mainly mimicking the argumentation for Jesus being Michael in the other direction.
The argument for plurality from absence of an article is definitely not weaker than the argument for singulariy from the absence of plural uses among two occurrences, I'd say.

I tend to read the constructions myself as genitive constructions - corresponding to the English noun construction: "an archangel voice and a God trumpet", or more naturally "an archangelic voice and a divine trumpet".  From revelation we know the trumpet (which must have been the last one) was blown by an angel, not by God personally.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 18, 2013, 04:44:58 am
The only reason why trinitarians recoil at this suggestion is because God can't be an angel.
Why not?  I believe Jesus is God, and He is the Angel of YHWH.  After all, "angel" (malak, aggelos) merely means "messenger", it is a role, not an ontic category.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 18, 2013, 04:48:03 am
If Jesus is God, he had no beginning.

If Jesus is God, how can the Father be his God? (Rev 3:12)

On the first point, remember, through Jesus all things were created. This verse is very plausibly understood as referring to Jesus as the originator of creation, that Jesus was used to begin the creation of the universe. Note the use of the words:

"the Beginning of the creation of God"

I think this can plausibly be interpreted both ways, though I'm sure my Trinitarian friends will disagree and say it's most plausibly interpreted to mean he was used to create all things. I'll let you and them (if they will) argue about which is the most plausible, but I'm content to say both are plausible (tbh, I'm not terribly familiar with the verse, never seen it brought up in a serious theological discussion).

On the second, there are two explanations:

1) Jesus is a human nature and a divine nature. On Earth, while the soul of Jesus is the Son, he's still a human. Thus, while embodied in this fashion, it is only proper for him to refer to the Father as "my God" as the Father is God. Or, he may even be referencing God himself, not just the Father, IDK.

2) The Son is viewed to be, by many Trinitarians, functionally subordinate to the Father. This is demonstrate in a multitude of verses that you''d be quick to bring up. This does not equate to ontological subordination, any more than a man being the leader of the household makes him a superior human being to a woman (or vice versa).

There are other explanations, but I'll leave it at these two.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 18, 2013, 05:04:52 am
The only reason why trinitarians recoil at this suggestion is because God can't be an angel.
Why not?  I believe Jesus is God, and He is the Angel of YHWH.  After all, "angel" (malak, aggelos) merely means "messenger", it is a role, not an ontic category.

I doubt that you will get too many to agree with you Biep. The mere suggestion that Jesus could be an angel (created being) is repulsive to most trinitarians. There are millions of angels and we know that they are not all messengers. They are used by God in all sorts of roles. One of them is executioner. (2 Kings 19:35; 2 Thess 1:6-8; Psalm 34:7; 1Cor 4:9; Gen 23:20; 28:2; Acts 5:19)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 18, 2013, 05:13:32 am

On the second, there are two explanations:

1) Jesus is a human nature and a divine nature. On Earth, while the soul of Jesus is the Son, he's still a human. Thus, while embodied in this fashion, it is only proper for him to refer to the Father as "my God" as the Father is God. Or, he may even be referencing God himself, not just the Father, IDK.

2) The Son is viewed to be, by many Trinitarians, functionally subordinate to the Father. This is demonstrate in a multitude of verses that you''d be quick to bring up. This does not equate to ontological subordination, any more than a man being the leader of the household makes him a superior human being to a woman (or vice versa).

There are other explanations, but I'll leave it at these two.

The one flaw in this argument is that Jesus was back in heaven as supposedly part of the godhead again, so how does one part of God call another part of himself, "my God"?

He gave the Revelation to John as part of the chain of command. It came from God to Jesus to an angel to John. (Rev 1:1)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Aaron Massey on July 18, 2013, 05:22:12 am

On the second, there are two explanations:

1) Jesus is a human nature and a divine nature. On Earth, while the soul of Jesus is the Son, he's still a human. Thus, while embodied in this fashion, it is only proper for him to refer to the Father as "my God" as the Father is God. Or, he may even be referencing God himself, not just the Father, IDK.

2) The Son is viewed to be, by many Trinitarians, functionally subordinate to the Father. This is demonstrate in a multitude of verses that you''d be quick to bring up. This does not equate to ontological subordination, any more than a man being the leader of the household makes him a superior human being to a woman (or vice versa).

There are other explanations, but I'll leave it at these two.

THis is what divided eastern and western christianity.
Are you a water and oil guy or a water and Wine guy? How is jesus god?

Jem might believe that Jesus is a angelic being. 
But how do you explain exactly how jesus is God with in the trinity?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 18, 2013, 06:07:14 am
Quote from: Revelation 3:14b
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
The Greek is more explicit:
Quote
η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου
Remark it does not say πρωτος (first of a collection), but αρχη (that which precedes the collection).  The αρχη of an army was the commander, who walked in front of the army itself.
So this verse clearly states that Jesus was before creation, and not the first element (πρωτος) of it.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 18, 2013, 06:12:06 am

I believe Jesus is God, and He is the Angel of YHWH.

I doubt that you will get too many to agree with you Biep.
Well, it's how I read the Bible.  Do other Trinitarians object to Jesus being the Angel of the LORD?

But I do agree that, God's Word being active, a messenger of God may end up being much more than messager of human, powerless words.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 18, 2013, 06:18:05 am
Why is Jehovah called “God of gods” at Deut 10:17? If the “gods” are all false gods, then are you saying that Jehovah is the God of “false” gods?
This is based on a misunderstanding of Hebrew idiom.  Does the Song of songs have to sing about other songs?  Or does the vanity of vanities make the other vaniti-ness of other vanities vain (thereby restoring their importance)?
The heaven of heavens, the age of ages..  Taking idiom literally is a dangerous source of misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Archsage on July 18, 2013, 06:26:44 am
Hmm. A big problem that our brothers seem to be having is that they just don't really understand the Trinity at all. And because they are convinced beforehand that it is heretical, they really have no care to try and first understand. But I think that this problem is easy to fix, once we're willing.

Now I would never describe myself as a Trinitarian because I truly believe that God is much more than that, and that the Trinity is just a human thought experiment to try and conceptualize Him. But I do find it plainly evident that Jesus is God, and that Trinitarianism is a much more coherent understanding than Unitarianism.

I mean seriously seeing things like "1+1+1=3 not 1 God" or something along those lines is very discouraging. It's like a blatant declaration of one's ignorance on the subject. Before we argue, we should really come to understand one another.

We are brothers in Christ. Let's stop these accusations of heresy and actually work towards fixing the problem. If there is one thing I find annoying, it is that sometimes we care more about attacking each other than about building each other up. This is an apologist forum yes, but we are the Church first. We can act like it, even on very serious issues such as this one.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 18, 2013, 06:31:11 am
This is an apologist forum yes, bit we are the Church first.
Amen! Applauded (giving you a round 100).
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 18, 2013, 09:35:08 am
So I noticed that people are bringing up verses yet not interacting with my exegesis at all.  I presume that's because they haven't even read the OP.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 18, 2013, 11:17:51 am
Maxximilian,
Quote
Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς θεὸς (monogenēs theos = "only begotten god") ὁ ὢν είς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο. - John 1:18

All versions, then, that render μονογενὴς θεὸς as "only begotten Son" pervert God's truth.

You've omitted the fact that there are variant manuscripts for this verse: that is why some versions use "son" and others use "God". It's not that some translators translated θεὸς  as son(!!!! I hope you didn't really believe that)

Quoting myself in response to another poster:

Quote
There are many preserved manuscripts of both the Old and New Testaments of varying quality and reliability. There are differences between them known as textual variants. It is the work of textual critics to resolve these differences when a Bible translation is being produced. So in John 1:18 some manuscripts have theos=God and some have huios=son i.e. some read as "the only begotten God" and some read as "the only begotten son". So your statement "If it is translated as "son" in verse 18 but "God" in verse 1" is incorrect since a different word is being translated as "son"! So in John 1:18 some manuscripts have ο μονογενης υιος  (the only-begotten son) and others have ο μονογενης θεος   (the only-begotten God)

Enter Jn 1:18 into http://www.laparola.net/greco/index.php to see the variant readings:
Quote
1:18 (Münster) (IGNT Majuscules)
μονογενὴς θεὸς] p66 ‭א* B C* L pc syrp syrh(mg) geo2 Diatessarona Valentiniansaccording to Irenaeus Valentiniansaccording to Clement Ptolemy Heracleon Origengr(2/4) Ariusaccording to Epiphanius Apostolic Constitutions Didymus Ps-Ignatius Synesiusaccording to Epiphanius Cyril1/4 WH NRtext Nv NM
ὁ μονογενὴς θεὸς] p75 ‭א2 33 pc copbo Theodotusaccording to Clement(1/2) Clement2/3 Origengr(2/4) Eusebius3/7 Serapion1/2 Basil1/2 Gregory-Nyssa Epiphanius Cyril3/4
ὁ μονογενὴς υἱὸς] (see John 3:16; John 3:18; 1John 4:9) A C3 E F G H K Wsupp X Δ Θ Π Ψ 063 0141 f1 f13 28 157 180 205 565 579 597 700 892 1006 1009 1010 1071 1079 1195 1216 1230 1241 1242 1243 1253 1292 1342 1344 1365 1424 1505 1546 1646 2148 Byz Lect ita itaur itb itc ite itf itff2 itl vg syrc syrh syrpal arm eth geo1 slav Theodotusaccording to Clement(1/2) Theodotus Irenaeuslat(1/3) Clement1/3 Tertullian Hippolytus Origenlat(1/2) Letter of Hymenaeus Alexander Eustathius Eusebius4/7 Hegemonius Ambrosiaster Faustinus Serapion1/2 Victorinus-Rome Hilary5/7 Athanasius Titus-Bostra Basil1/2 Gregory-Nazianzus Gregory-Elvira Phoebadius Ambrose10/11 Chrysostom Synesius Jerome Theodore Augustine Nonnus Cyril1/4 Proclus Varimadum Theodoret Fulgentius Caesarius John-Damascus Ps-Priscillian ς NRmg CEI ND Riv Dio TILC
μονογενὴς υἱὸς θεοῦ] itq (copsa? θεὸς) Irenaeuslat(1/3) Ambrose1/11(vid)
ὁ μονογενὴς] vgms Diatessaron Jacob-Nisibis Ephraem Cyril-Jerusalem Ps-Ignatius Ps-Vigilius1/2 Nonnus Nestorius

The argument for using theos not huios:

Quote

With the acquisition of î66 and î75, both of which read theos, the external support of
this reading has been notably strengthened. A majority of the Committee regarded the
reading monogene huios, which undoubtedly is easier than monogene theos, to be the result
of scribal assimilation to Jn 3.16, 18; 1 Jn 4.9. The anarthrous use of theos (cf. 1.1) appears
to be more primitive. There is no reason why the article should have been deleted, and
when huios supplanted theos it would certainly have been added. The shortest reading, o`
monogenes while attractive because of internal considerations, is too poorly attested for acceptance as the
text.,
from http://obinfonet.ro/docs/exeg/exegres/metzger-alls.pdf
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 18, 2013, 12:00:24 pm
Jem,
Quote
Look at the scripture you quoted and answer the following questions for me....if you can.
I've answered your 10 questions in another thread ("how do we understand the New Jerusalem) so as not to hijack this one. You haven't responded. Loss of interest or just missed it? I had dm'd you telling you I planned to do this.

Quote
Do you know how many times Jesus used the expression "I am"? (E·go′ ei·mi)
Why out of all the times Jesus used that expression do trinitarians single out John 8:58 as him claiming to be God?  Do you see the biased translating lapwing?
Christians cite the other instances as well e.g. at Jesus' trial
What is biased about translating ego eimi as "I am"? You are confusing translation with commentary - they are not the same thing.

Quote
Consider this Snooch....JW's have no 'doctrine' concerning Michael. It is a belief based on scripture.
You are being "economical with the truth". Do you work in politics?
Quote
doctrine:
a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group:
from http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/doctrine?q=doctrine
So note that doctrine=belief. You are obviously squirming on this one.

Quote
Make no mistake, Jesus is a god....he is just not "the" God.....the Almighty. This is what John 1:1 states. It was the Logos who became flesh....not "THE God".
I hope you haven't forgotten that the Father is rendered sometimes as theos without a preceding definite article, as per the NWT even. So absence of a definite article doesn't mean definitely that theos is not God.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 18, 2013, 12:06:28 pm
And that so-called rule that theos without the article in the predicate must be translated as "god" instead of "God" is broken 3 out of 4 times by them.  That's not much of a rule.  The only time it apparently applies is in John 1.1 because they know it is talking about Jesus.  I said all of this in the OP and went through John 1.1 in an in depth fashion so they would know this if they actually read the OP.  That leads me to think that they haven't which is confirmed by bringing up verses I addressed in the OP but not interacting with my exegesis. 
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 18, 2013, 07:32:43 pm
Jem apparently thinks that believing that Jesus is God incarnate is not supported biblically so I'm bumping this for her.

Quote from: Jem
And believing that Jesus is God incarnate is the first step towards alienation from both of them.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Meriaduec on July 19, 2013, 12:54:41 am
This whole thing is very confusing. Can somebody please summarise the main reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses reject the trinity? I've lost track of this over all the different threads.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 19, 2013, 01:33:18 am
I would say that for JW laypeople it's because they are told the Trinity is not true and they have a poor translation which tries to drive home that point.  As for the more scholarly JW people, I will focus on Greg Stafford who has been called the greatest JW apologist (even though he recently left and told people to get out because of the mind control of the WTBTS [the JWs]).  He agrees that Thomas calls Jesus Lord and God and his big hang up seems to be a defunct metaphysics.  He reasons that if he can't get his head around how the Trinity or incarnation could be true, then it can't be.

JWs and those who reject the fact that Jesus is God on this board might disagree and claim that scripture supports them, but if they say as much then I invite them to interact with my exegesis in the OP.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 19, 2013, 02:27:23 am
Quote from: Meriaduec
This whole thing is very confusing. Can somebody please summarise the main reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses reject the trinity? I've lost track of this over all the different threads.

JW's reject the trinity because the Bible simply does not teach it. Jesus never once claimed to be God Almighty.

There is no "God the son" or "God the Holy Spirit" mentioned once in the Bible. There is only "God the Father".

Jesus is seen at God's right hand, but the holy spirit is never once seen on his left.

Jesus worshipped his God and Father and directed his disciples to worship him too. (Luke 4:8.)

Jesus still called his Father "MY God" even after his return to heaven (Rev 3:12)

Jehovah and Jesus have personal names but the holy spirit is nameless.

Before the 4th century, the trinity was not official church doctrine. It was introduced into Christianity by a pagan Roman emperor who never became a Christian himself.

The trinity concept pre dates Christianity by centuries. There is no trinity in the Jewish religion and Jesus never taught it...neither did any of his disciples. (1 Cor 8:4-6)

Google the pagan origin of the trinity and see what comes up. The pictures tell the story. 

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 19, 2013, 02:30:05 am
I would say that for JW laypeople it's because they are told the Trinity is not true and they have a poor translation which tries to drive home that point.

You know these kinds of comments just make me laugh. JW's have no "laypeople". We have no "clergy". That is an idea that Christendom created to give power to people who didn't need it, but wanted it. Christ said all were "brothers" and not to give honorary titles to anyone as if their position or education somehow makes them superior. We have a "faithful slave" who is assigned to "feed" the rest of the "slaves" in the household their "food at the proper time". The slave is not appointed as head over the other slaves but is just assigned to "feed" them. (Matt 24:45-47; John 21:15-17; Matt 23:8-11)

Do you understand that all of Jehovah's Witnesses are Bible students?  We have a body of elders, but they don't necessarily know more than we do. They are shepherds and guides and they present us with instruction from the "slave", but they have no diplomas, making them a special "learned" class. They are at the meetings learning from the slave right alongside us. We are all ordained ministers of the kingdom, Preaching and teaching others just as the first century disciples of Jesus did. You put such great store by your college diplomas....Jesus never had one and neither did the 12. (Acts 4:13) The apostle Paul was the closest thing Jesus had to a scholar, as a former Pharisee educated at the feet of Gamaliel. Paul, however is not one of the 12 foundation stones of Christ's congregation, even though he was used more than any other apostle in the writing of the Christian scriptures.

Quote
As for the more scholarly JW people, I will focus on Greg Stafford who has been called the greatest JW apologist (even though he recently left and told people to get out because of the mind control of the WTBTS [the JWs]). 

You can "focus" on whomever you like. I have never heard of Greg Stafford. And as far as I know, in 40 years I have never heard of any apologist speaking for JW's in the world. We don't need them. The truth speaks for itself when we call on people in all nations with the good news.
He went out from us because he disagreed...big deal. Who is he supposed to be? He is no one we recognize.

As far as we are concerned, getting information from apostates is akin to asking Judas Iscariot how he felt about Jesus Christ.  (1 John 2:19-21)

Quote
He agrees that Thomas calls Jesus Lord and God and his big hang up seems to be a defunct metaphysics.  He reasons that if he can't get his head around how the Trinity or incarnation could be true, then it can't be.

Would you care what Judas Iscariot had to say about anything? That is how we feel about those who have left Jehovah's spiritual family. It is their loss, not ours. He is free to believe whatever he likes. Where is he now? In no man's land with all the other ex JW's who now have to come to terms with the fact that they don't belong anywhere. Once you learn the truth, and you see Christendom for what she is, you cannot unlearn it.
There is simply nowhere to go that is approved by God.

Quote
JWs and those who reject the fact that Jesus is God on this board might disagree and claim that scripture supports them, but if they say as much then I invite them to interact with my exegesis in the OP.
Not that old cry again....seriously, you say "MY exegesis" like you thought it all up by yourself. Did you really? Are you not simply parroting off your own preferred scholars? There is not really an original thought in any of it, is there?

Sorry, but "your" exegesis means nothing to me.  :-\
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 19, 2013, 02:37:42 am
Quote from: Jem
JW's reject the trinity because the Bible simply does not teach it. Jesus never once claimed to be God Almighty.

Read the OP.

Quote
Jesus worshipped his God and Father and directed his disciples to worship him too. (Luke 4:8.)

Jesus was a Jewish man and the text says Lord meaning YHWH which Jesus is called.

Quote
Jesus still called his Father "MY God" even after his return to heaven (Rev 3:12)

Addressed in the OP.  Did you even read the OP?

Quote
There is no trinity in the Jewish religion and Jesus never taught it...neither did any of his disciples. (1 Cor 8:4-6)

That is the shema that Paul is quoting which was the most well known monotheistic passage of the Jewish people and he includes Jesus in it.  He is including Jesus in a passage about who God is!

Quote
Not that old cry again....seriously, you say "MY exegesis" like you thought it all up by yourself. Did you really? Are you not simply parroting off your own preferred scholars? There is not really an original thought in any of it, is there?

Sorry, but "your" exegesis means nothing to me.  :-\

Are you kidding me Jem?  This is all my own work.  I have the latest scholarship on Christology in my room so I can dig through it and cite those who agree with me if you want, but I did this completely independently of any books except the Bible in English and the Greek.  So yes, this is my own thought.

Again, I invite you to read and interact with the OP, Jem.  You said there was no evidence so I presented it and now you won't even interact with it and I doubt you even read it.  That says quite a lot indeed.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 19, 2013, 03:04:18 am
Jem,
Earlier you said JWs don't hate anyone, yet this is how you talk about people who leave the JWs:

Quote
He went out from us because he disagreed...big deal. Who is he supposed to be? He is no one we recognize. As far as we are concerned, getting information from apostates is akin to asking Judas Iscariot how he felt about Jesus Christ.  (1 John 2:19-21) ...
Would you care what Judas Iscariot had to say about anything? That is how we feel about those who have left Jehovah's spiritual family. It is their loss, not ours. He is free to believe whatever he likes. Where is he now? In no man's land with all the other ex JW's who now have to come to terms with the fact that they don't belong anywhere.

Now of course you will disagree that this sounds like hate ... we'll let others judge what your real attitude is to people who leave JWs. Likening to Judas Iscariot? Don't you think that means that the JWs have a far too exalted view of their own importance.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 19, 2013, 04:52:43 am
Not that old cry again....seriously, you say "MY exegesis" like you thought it all up by yourself. Did you really? Are you not simply parroting off your own preferred scholars? There is not really an original thought in any of it, is there?
Jem,

Aren't you transferring your own experience (being passively fed by a 'slave') to others?

I can't speak for others I've never met, of course, but people studying the Bible by themselves, informed by the Holy Spirit, and discovering the Trinity is a rather common occurrence, isn't it?  Especially if one has access to the Greek.
This is how I found it myself in the Bible, and this is how many others found it.  Of course the Bible won't teach us the name of this doctrine, but the elements are all there.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 19, 2013, 05:16:55 am
Quote from: Jem
JW's reject the trinity because the Bible simply does not teach it. Jesus never once claimed to be God Almighty.

Read the OP.

What makes you think I haven't? My disagreement perhaps.  ???

Quote
Quote
Jesus worshipped his God and Father and directed his disciples to worship him too. (Luke 4:8.)

Jesus was a Jewish man and the text says Lord meaning YHWH which Jesus is called.

Where do you get LORD = YHWH = Jesus? What scholarship teaches you that?

The Greek and Hebrew words rendered “lord” (or such related terms as “sir,” “owner,” “master”) are used with reference to Jehovah God (Ezek 3:11), Jesus Christ (Matt 7:21), one of the elders seen by John in vision (Rev 7:13, 14), angels (Gen 19:1, 2; Dan 12:8.), men (1Sam 25:24; Ac 16:16, 19, 30), and false deities (1Cor 8:5). Often the designation “lord” denotes one who has ownership or authority and power over persons or things. (Gen 24:9; 42:30; 45:8, 9; 1Kings 16:24; Luke 19:33; Ac 25:26; Eph 6:5) This title was applied by Sarah to her husband (Gen 18:12), by children to their fathers (Gen 31:35; Mt 21:28, 29), and by a younger brother to his older brother (Gen 32:5, 6). It appears as a title of respect addressed to prominent persons, public officials, prophets, and kings. (Gen 23:6; 42:10; Num 11:28; 2Sam 1:10; 2Kings 8:10-12; Matt 27:63) When used in addressing strangers, “lord,” or “sir,” served as a title of courtesy.—John 12:21; 20:15; Acts 16:30

You are mistaken.

Quote
Quote
Jesus still called his Father "MY God" even after his return to heaven (Rev 3:12)

Addressed in the OP.  Did you even read the OP?

But not convincingly.

Quote
Quote
There is no trinity in the Jewish religion and Jesus never taught it...neither did any of his disciples. (1 Cor 8:4-6)

That is the shema that Paul is quoting which was the most well known monotheistic passage of the Jewish people and he includes Jesus in it.  He is including Jesus in a passage about who God is!

"For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him."
(1 Cor 8:4-6 NASB)

Sounds like two to me.  ::) Paul is differentiating between false gods and the one God whom he identified as "the Father". Then he speaks about "one Lord, Jesus Christ". The "Lord" here is not another name for Jehovah. And where is the third person? Missing again.  :-\

Quote
Quote
Not that old cry again....seriously, you say "MY exegesis" like you thought it all up by yourself. Did you really? Are you not simply parroting off your own preferred scholars? There is not really an original thought in any of it, is there?

Sorry, but "your" exegesis means nothing to me.

Are you kidding me Jem?  This is all my own work.  I have the latest scholarship on Christology in my room so I can dig through it and cite those who agree with me if you want, but I did this completely independently of any books except the Bible in English and the Greek.  So yes, this is my own thought.
Excuse me?  :o  You mean to tell me that a teenager has written an exegesis on the scriptures with "the latest scholarship on Christology" (whatever the heck that is...?) and you know that scholars agree with you? Really?  I'm more inclined to think that you borrowed all your ideas from the 'scholars' and are taking the credit. I find it very hard to believe that you could create such a partyline piece without knowing in advance the position of the party. It's got Christendom"s stamp all over it.

Quote
Again, I invite you to read and interact with the OP, Jem.  You said there was no evidence so I presented it and now you won't even interact with it and I doubt you even read it.  That says quite a lot indeed.

You know what happens when you beat your head against a brick wall AAQ? You get a headache. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/bash.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

When you can show me "God the son" and "God the Holy Spirit" written like that in the Bible, we might have something to talk about.

You can't infer something into scripture to create a foundation doctrine. Do you understand that?

From my perspective, the trinity is dead. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/rip.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

You can believe it if you wish...I cannot.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 19, 2013, 10:28:26 am
I'll address 1 Cor. 8.6 as that is the only relevant thing with regards to this thread that you brought up. 

"there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him." (NWT)

Notice the phraseology of 1 Cor. 8.6, "one God...one Lord..."

Let's look at Deut. 6.4 (LXX): ...κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν κύριος εἷς ἐστιν (transliterated, kurios ho theos hemon kurios heis estin.

Now look at the Greek of 1 Cor. 8.6:
ἀλλ᾿ ἡμῖν εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατὴρ
   ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν,
καὶ εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς
   δι᾿ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι᾿ αὐτοῦ.
Or, transliterated:
all' hemin heis theos ho pater
   ex hou ta panta kai hemeis heis auton,
kai heis kurious Iesous Christos
   di hou ta panta kai hemeis di autou.
And estin is carried over from verse 5.

Thus, we see Paul use all of the words of the shema but rearrange it to include Jesus.  Hence, Paul is taking the most monotheistic passage that talks about Israel's one true God and saying both the Father and Jesus belong in there.  Therefore, Paul is saying that Jesus is God while not saying that Jesus is another god, but the same God as the Father, yet they are separate.  With all of that in mind, 1 Cor. 8.5-6 is another passage that shows that Jesus is God.

As to claiming that I plagiarized my work, I will emphasize again that this is my exegesis.  I know you don't like it because you don't want to read it or interact with it since I did a thorough job, but please stop saying I plagiarized.  As I said, I can go through my books and find those who agree with me if you want, but I did my exegesis with the NWT, the NT in Greek, language resources, and the LXX online.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 19, 2013, 02:16:37 pm
I'll address 1 Cor. 8.6 as that is the only relevant thing with regards to this thread that you brought up. 

"there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him." (NWT)

Notice the phraseology of 1 Cor. 8.6, "one God...one Lord..."

SEE: I AM JEHOVAH....

If/when someone finds Jesus saying this in the scriptures, please let me know. Until then, I can only conclude the Trinity as a false doctrine myself.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 19, 2013, 02:20:22 pm
Quote from: JohnBee
SEE: I AM JEHOVAH....

If/when someone finds Jesus saying this in the scriptures, please let me know. Until then, I can only conclude the Trinity as a false doctrine myself.

The NT authors never use the Tetragrammaton as there is not a single NT manuscript that has it in there.  However, if we insert it in the text where it was in the Hebrew text whenever the NT Authors quote it, then YHWH passages are applied all of the time to Jesus with one example being Hebrews 1.

Nonetheless, this is simply moving the goal post.  It would be like me saying that you must show me where it says in English that the Father is God.  Sure, the NT writers wrote in Greek, but I want it in English.  It's just an absurd demand. 
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 19, 2013, 02:24:20 pm
SEE: I AM JEHOVAH....

If/when someone finds Jesus saying this in the scriptures, please let me know. Until then, I can only conclude the Trinity as a false doctrine myself.

I don't think that non sequitur is a sufficient reason to conclude that something is not true.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 19, 2013, 02:30:51 pm
... Nonetheless, this is simply moving the goal post.  It would be like me saying that you must show me where it says in English that the Father is God.  Sure, the NT writers wrote in Greek, but I want it in English.  It's just an absurd demand.

I'm  not picky actually:

1) I AM YHWH.
2) I AM THE FATHER.
3) I AM THE ALMIGHTY.
4) I AM GOD.

I'd accept any one of these tbh.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Lawlessone777 on July 19, 2013, 02:34:25 pm
Quote
SEE: I AM JEHOVAH....

If/when someone finds Jesus saying this in the scriptures, please let me know. Until then, I can only conclude the Trinity as a false doctrine myself.

"I and the father are one," wasn't clear enough? You know...the entire reason the Pharissee rent his garment in anguish? You know...the entire reason why they crucified Jesus? You DO know he was crucified because he claimed he was God right?

When Jesus said, "Before Abraham, I am," he was making the glaringly obvious claim that he was God by using the same language as God. "I am". And in response the Jews went to stone him. When he asked why they were going to stone him they responded:

“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” John 10:33

I mean...this is a question? This is so painfully obvious. That's why they crucified him.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 19, 2013, 02:35:27 pm
Quote from: JohnBee
I'm  not picky actually:

1) I AM YHWH.

The manuscripts don't use the tetragrammaton, but John 8.58 fulfills this.

Quote
2) I AM THE FATHER.

Are you joking here?  Jesus isn't the Father.  This seems to be the whole problem, non-Trinitarians don't even understand what we believe.  Did you read the OP?  I explained Trinitarian thought and went through passages showing that Jesus is God.

Quote
3) I AM THE ALMIGHTY.

I'm not sure what Greek phrase you are looking for here.

Quote
4) I AM GOD.

I'd accept any one of these tbh.

See John 1.1, 20.28, etc.

Is the rest of the Bible not good enough for you?

Out of curiosity, did you read the OP?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: residentoftartarus on July 19, 2013, 02:35:45 pm
Would any of the JWs on this thread be willing to explain to me why their masters in Brooklyn (!) have falsely predicted the onset of Armageddon on multiple occasions.

Also, would any of the JWs on this thread be willing to explain why they think that God's rule from heaven began in October 1914 when Jesus said almost two thousand years ago that the kingdom of heaven had "come near" (Matt 4:17) and that it would arrive within the lifetime of his earthly disciples (Mark 9:1)?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 19, 2013, 02:36:13 pm
I don't think that non sequitur is a sufficient reason to conclude that something is not true.
This could work in certain cases, though here, the onus is on the one asking to admit an outstanding term in an argument. ie. the Bible has proven to be very specific(see: I AM JEHOVAH) when it comes to identifying the One True God. At which point the Trinitarian requires that we admit an indirect form of identity. Which remains outstanding to the evidence to say the least(see: ignoring implications etc etc). And so for me, this pretty much seals the deal in terms of plausibility.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Lawlessone777 on July 19, 2013, 02:37:27 pm
Quote
And so for me, this pretty much seals the deal in terms of plausibility.

Except the part where he openly stated that him and the father were the same person. If you ignore that part. Also the part where the Jews openly admitted he was claiming to be God. That one to.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 19, 2013, 02:40:36 pm
I and the father are one," wasn't clear enough? You know...the entire reason the Pharissee rent his garment in anguish? You know...the entire reason why they crucified Jesus? You DO know he was crucified because he claimed he was God right?
The answer is of course no(see: one in purpose etc). ie. the apostles and Jesus were one as well.

Though I'd add that claiming to be one with the Father bears none of the qualities of such statements as: I AM GOD, I AM YHWH, I AM THE ALMIGHTY etc etc etc. Not to mention the fact that Jesus outright denied such claims when defending himself against the religious leaders accusations. And so again... the weight of the direct evidence is far more impactfull than the requirements needed to advance that Jesus is/was YHWH.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 19, 2013, 02:41:08 pm
Quote
Except the part where he openly stated that him and the father were the same person.

I think the bolded word is a typo.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 19, 2013, 02:42:49 pm
I don't think that non sequitur is a sufficient reason to conclude that something is not true.
This could work in certain cases, though here, the onus is on the one asking to admit an outstanding term in an argument. ie. the Bible has proven to be very specific(see: I AM JEHOVAH) when it comes to identifying the One True God. At which point the Trinitarian requires that we admit an indirect form of identity. Which remains outstanding to the evidence to say the least(see: ignoring implications etc etc). And so for me, this pretty much seals the deal in terms of plausibility.

There's actually approximately eight ways that the Jews at Jesus' time identified God:

1. The explicit use of the word God (depending on context);
2. God alone may and must be worshipped;
3. God is the sole Creator of all things;
4. God is the sole sovereign Ruler over all things;
5. The Name YHWH names God in his unique identity;
6. God alone is fully eternal;
7. God is known through his narrative identity;
8. God will achieve his eschatological rule.

Jesus fulfills all of those.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 19, 2013, 02:44:11 pm
Quote from: JohnBee
I AM THE ALMIGHTY.
I'm not sure what Greek phrase you are looking for here.
Maybe "εδοθη μοι πασα εξουσια εν ουρανω και επι της γης"?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Lawlessone777 on July 19, 2013, 02:44:18 pm
Quote
The answer is of course no(see: one in purpose etc). ie. the apostles and Jesus were one as well.

Where do you get this interpretation? The Jews openly admitted to wanting to stone him because he was claiming to be God. Literally in plain english it states it right there. How you could claim Jesus was saying something completely different to what caused the Jews to take up arms against him is ridiculous.

Jesus claimed that he and the father were one, the Jews then sought to kill him, openly telling him in plain english, "We want to kill you because you are claiming to be God." It was glaringly obvious this was what Jesus was claiming. It seems pretty far fetched that the Jews would take up arms against a man, brutally torture him, and then murder him for saying something he never intended to say while Jesus himself never bothered to correct them.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 19, 2013, 02:48:21 pm
Quote from: JohnBee
I AM THE ALMIGHTY.
I'm not sure what Greek phrase you are looking for here.
Maybe "εδοθη μοι πασα εξουσια εν ουρανω και επι της γης"?

Haha.  Maybe. 
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 19, 2013, 02:49:18 pm
Where do you get this interpretation? The Jews openly admitted to wanting to stone him because he was claiming to be God. Literally in plain english it states it right there. How you could claim Jesus was saying something completely different to what caused the Jews to take up arms against him is ridiculous.
What's interesting about this is that 1) the Jews were indeed accusing Jesus of being like God(obviously they knew he wasn't God(see: no man can see God yet live etc) AND 2) where Jesus openly denied being God. And so, this particular argument works out to be detrimental to the Trinitarian position rather than working for it. Whatever the case, I'd emphasize that Jesus' response to the charge should sum things up rather nicely as he went on to state that he was none other than God's son.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 19, 2013, 02:53:09 pm
John,

Have you read the OP?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 19, 2013, 02:53:52 pm
Jesus fulfills all of those.
That's great. Though he didn't match or fulfil any of the obvious requirements needed to identify himself as the Almighty and so I'm going to have to pass on these remarks insofar as the initial problem is concerned. Which is btw. perfectly legitimate under the context of the Bible and more importantly, obviously not the case based on what's been offered here to date. IOW. there are no declarations matching YHWH's absolute statements toward Himself in the Bible from his son Jesus Christ. And so for me, this remains a shut case.

Quote
Have you read the OP?
I did, however, I chose to address one of your comments in the later portion of this thread and so it may appear as though I'm ignoring the original topic as a result of that.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 19, 2013, 02:57:51 pm
Okay.  So I went through your four criteria (one of them showed that you didn't even understand the Trinitarian view so that's worrying) and showed how Jesus fits them.  What statement exactly are you looking for?  We already established that the NT never uses YHWH so that is just a ridiculous claim.  By that standard, the Father isn't God either. 

I will also note that you are merely shifting the goal posts because the OP goes through a number of passages which can only be interpreted as Jesus being God yet you just move the goal post because they don't fit some arbitrary criteria you have made up.  That's just rejecting what the Bible is teaching flat out.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 19, 2013, 03:03:29 pm
JohBee that is non sequitur as I said.

The following propositions are mutually consistent:

(1) Jesus does not explicitly claim to be God.
(2) The doctrine of the trinity is true.

In fact (1) does not even warrant the claim that there is no sufficient evidence for (2) in the Bible.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 19, 2013, 03:26:01 pm
All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me.

Now I prophecy that someone will nitpick and say that since the authority had to be given that Jesus isn't really Almighty.

It sort of like moaning about a fleck of paint in a masterpiece like

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/waitingfortheword/6010350312/ (http://www.flickriver.com/photos/waitingfortheword/6010350312/)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-j6Dm7V4V2Ys/ThIZBYjSdCI/AAAAAAAAMVE/5eeLZ--PpE8/s1600/rembrandt%2Bemmaus%2Blouvre%2Bidle%2Bspeculations.jpg (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-j6Dm7V4V2Ys/ThIZBYjSdCI/AAAAAAAAMVE/5eeLZ--PpE8/s1600/rembrandt%2Bemmaus%2Blouvre%2Bidle%2Bspeculations.jpg)


Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: residentoftartarus on July 19, 2013, 03:53:12 pm
I know it's a bit off topic but these are some questions I have for JWs:

Quote
Would any of the JWs on this thread be willing to explain to me why their masters in Brooklyn (!) have falsely predicted the onset of Armageddon on multiple occasions.

Also, would any of the JWs on this thread be willing to explain why they think that God's rule from heaven began in October 1914 when Jesus said almost two thousand years ago that the kingdom of heaven had "come near" (Matt 4:17) and that it would arrive within the lifetime of his earthly disciples (Mark 9:1)?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 19, 2013, 04:51:42 pm
Now I prophecy that someone will nitpick and say that since the authority had to be given that Jesus isn't really Almighty.
Showing by doing so they haven't understood the kenosis aspect of the incarnation..

The real nitpicking would be pointing out that "under the earth" is missing - making the Father into a kind of Pluto, who only has power in the underworld.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: jbejon on July 19, 2013, 06:13:34 pm
I'll address 1 Cor. 8.6 as that is the only relevant thing with regards to this thread that you brought up. 

"there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him." (NWT)

Notice the phraseology of 1 Cor. 8.6, "one God...one Lord..."

SEE: I AM JEHOVAH....

If/when someone finds Jesus saying this in the scriptures, please let me know. Until then, I can only conclude the Trinity as a false doctrine myself.

The funny thing here is that if there were texts where Jesus said such a thing, I'd personally count it as evidence against Trinitarianism and in favour of something more like Oneness Theology.  In fact, I've yet to see anything on these threads to suggest that anyone who denies Trinitarianism actually understands what Trinitarianism asserts.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 19, 2013, 07:03:27 pm
...Now I prophecy that someone will nitpick and say that since the authority had to be given that Jesus isn't really Almighty.
We could take it up a notch and conclude that YHWH's authority cannot be contained. ie. the authority/power ascribed to in this scripture is localized(see: heaven and earth) whereas the Father's is absolute(see: Almighty).
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 19, 2013, 07:23:24 pm
So let's see if I have this right.  The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all share the same essence (Matt. 28.19).  Jesus shares the same nature as the Father (John 1.1).  He did not come into existence; He's eternal (John 1.3).  He is God's glorious presence in the flesh (John 1.14).  The lack of an article and theos is used for both the Father and Jesus (John 1.18).  He applies Exodus 3.14 to Himself (John 8.58).  Isaiah saw His glory and spoke about Him which is a reference to where Isaiah saw YHWH (John 12.41).  He is called Lord and God by Thomas and approves (John 20.28-29).  He has equality with the Father (Phil. 2.6).  A YHWH text is applied to Him (Phil. 2.11).  A passage about YHWH and about something that only YHWH does is applied to Him (Heb. 1.10-12).  And Jesus is included in the most famous monotheistic passage from the Old Testament which is about Israel's God (1 Cor. 8.6).  However, that just doesn't quite show that Jesus is God.  Seriously?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 19, 2013, 09:35:58 pm
Jesus voluntarily "emptied Himself" of His glory, became a humble human being and bore the sins of many.
As a result He has redeemed my life from the pit and set my feet upon a firm foundation that can never be moved. He was approved of by the Father "this is my beloved Son; listen to Him". You know I want to worship Him because He is worthy of it.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 19, 2013, 10:04:05 pm
Would any of the JWs on this thread be willing to explain to me why their masters in Brooklyn (!)

Excuse me?  :-[  Do you know Jehovah's Witnesses personally? Or do you just know "about" us from our opposers?

We have no "masters" apart from those who serve the only master we obey.
Do we have those who shepherd the flock and "feed" them...yes we do. (John 21:17)

Did Jesus' disciples have "masters" in Jerusalem? No but they had shepherds who guided them and "fed" them under the direction of the holy spirit.

We operate under the same system. How do we know that we are true Christians? Because we are a unique brotherhood in the world. We hold the same beliefs, no matter what country we live in. We engage in the work Jesus assigned to his disciples before he left the earth as one united people with one united message. We will not fight in the wars of this world nor adopt its ways because we were told not to be part of it. Can Christendom make that claim?  ???

Quote
have falsely predicted the onset of Armageddon on multiple occasions.

Unfulfilled expectations as to the coming of the kingdom is not falsely predicting anything. We long for the kingdom to come and put an end to wickedness and suffering....we have hoped that certain years would bring that about and it will come in Jehovah's due time. We are told to "keep on the watch" and to "keep in expectation" and that is what we have done. Keeping our hope bright is how we endure till the end. (Matt 24:13) We will not be caught slumbering like the foolish virgins in Jesus' parable.

Jesus' own apostles also had unfulfilled expectations about the kingdom, right up until Jesus left the earth. (Acts1:6, 7) He told them that the Holy Spirit would reveal all.
He appointed a slave to feed the members of his household their "food at the proper time". (Matt 24:45-47) All was not revealed at once, but the "sacred secret" has gradually unfolded over time. We are told what we need to know, when we need to know it. (Rom 16:25-27; Prov 4:18.)

Quote
Also, would any of the JWs on this thread be willing to explain why they think that God's rule from heaven began in October 1914 when Jesus said almost two thousand years ago that the kingdom of heaven had "come near" (Matt 4:17) and that it would arrive within the lifetime of his earthly disciples (Mark 9:1)?

The kingdom can draw near in a number of ways. The immanence of its coming was kept to the forefront...why?
How would God keep dying humanity from giving up if they knew that the coming of the kingdom was still thousands of years away? The truth is, no human has to wait for the coming of the kingdom any longer than their own lifetime, which is a snap of the fingers in universal time. Time ceases at death. The resurrection is an awakening to renewed life in a "new earth", where "righteousness is to dwell" (2Pet 3:13; John 5:28, 29)

The "Most High" does not accomplish his purpose in earth time. (2 Pet 3:8.) From the creation and the fall of man, thousands of earth years went by before the promised Messiah put in his first appearance. And after sacrificing his life, here we are thousands of years again waiting for his return. The issues raised in Eden were universal issues, obviously needing universal time to resolve.

On the Mount of Olives, Jesus' apostles asked him about that time and "when" the end of the age would come. Then Jesus gave a composite "sign" to indicate that he would be "present" and ruling in the heavens. (Read Matt 24:3-14)
The sign began with a kind of warfare not seen before on this planet...."nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom" this was the First World War. Other features of the sign followed and have continued all through these "last days" (2Tim 3:1-5) The preaching of the "good news of the kingdom as a witness to all the nations" before the foretold "end" has not ceased since 1914 by Jehovah's people. (Matt 24:14) Jesus said that the response of people in general would be the same as in Noah's day. (Matt 24:36-39)

Jesus' "parousia", as opposed to his "coming" are two different events.

The first is not visible; it is an invisible 'presence' so it requires a "sign" to indicate that it has taken place. (Luke 17:20) Jesus' enthronement in heaven was seen only in a vision given to Daniel, whose book was to be written and "sealed" until "the time of the end". (Dan 7:13, 14; 12:4)

Using calculations from the Bible itself, we arrive at the year 1914 C.E. as the year that "the appointed times of the nations" ended. This is the year that Christ received his crown as king. This is a date we have not changed in 100 years. (I can provide the details if you wish.) Using the same calculations, the Jews of Jesus' day were in expectation of the arrival of their Messiah in 29 C.E. 

It was the weight of public opinion swayed by apostate Jewish religious leaders that convinced the Jewish nation to execute their own Messiah and curse themselves and their children with his blood. (Matt 27:24-26)

Don't think it can't happen again. Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life; (Matt 7:13, 14) most are blissfully travelling the wrong road. :(


Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 20, 2013, 02:55:23 am
Jem,
Quote
He appointed a slave to feed the members of his household their "food at the proper time". (Matt 24:45-47) All was not revealed at once, but the "sacred secret" has gradually unfolded over time. We are told what we need to know, when we need to know it.
This is a parable about the need to faithfully fulfil a responsibility in view of the imminent return of a master. The original application may have been to the religious leaders in Jesus' day, though it was applied later to Christian leaders. So although the principle still applies, the intention of the parable is not to single out a particular person and apply it to that person.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 20, 2013, 05:19:00 am
Jem,
Quote
He appointed a slave to feed the members of his household their "food at the proper time". (Matt 24:45-47) All was not revealed at once, but the "sacred secret" has gradually unfolded over time. We are told what we need to know, when we need to know it.
This is a parable about the need to faithfully fulfil a responsibility in view of the imminent return of a master. The original application may have been to the religious leaders in Jesus' day, though it was applied later to Christian leaders. So although the principle still applies, the intention of the parable is not to single out a particular person and apply it to that person.

You know what the parables were for lapwing. They helped get a concept across in simple illustrations that his audience understood. As you said, they weren't just for the people Jesus spoke to but there was a wider application for his disciples down through time. 

The "wheat and the weeds", "the ten virgins" "the minas" all pointed ahead to the time of the end.

The wheat and the weeds was speaking about the false Christianity sown by the devil "while men were sleeping". The weeds were not to be uprooted right away, but the two were permitted to "grow together" until the "harvest time".

We are living in the time of the harvest right now. Angels are poised to do the reaping of the weeds very soon now.

"The ten virgins" also picture the same people. All were originally invited to the wedding feast. But the bridegroom was delayed and all the virgins fell asleep. When the call was heard that the bridegroom was coming, only the wise ones had extra oil for their lamps and were permitted to go in with the groom to the marriage feast. The foolish ones had nothing to light their lamps and were left out in the darkness, rejected for being foolish and unprepared. This is basically the wheat and the weeds again.

The "faithful and discreet slave" is appointed by Jesus before his departure to feed His household of slaves their "food at the proper time". The household are the wheat, and the ones appointed to feed the rest are part of that group as well. No one outside the household gets fed. Nor are the slaves permitted to feed themselves or accept food from anyone else.

Many of Jesus' illustrations were pictorial portrayals of the same group.

The faithful save is a class of men who have been doing their job since Jesus left. They are still doing it when he returns. That means that he has been active in his duties for almost 2,000 years now, so he is clearly not a single individual. Today, we have every reason to believe that the slave is feeding Jehovah's people, as he was instructed to do, having accepted the cleansing and refining and understanding of the knowledge made available at the time of the end. It was all foretold by Daniel. (Dan 12:4, 9, 10)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 20, 2013, 08:04:10 am
Anyone interested in interacting with my exegesis?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 20, 2013, 08:59:18 am
Jem,
That's all very well - you've given a good explanation of parables and their function. it's just that the JW hierarchy goes a lot further in turning this parable into a prophecy.

Quote
Quote from: Wikipedia
"At the 2012 Annual Meeting of the Watch Tower Society, the "faithful and discreet slave" was defined as referring to the Governing Body only."

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses and http://www.jw.org/en/news/events-activities/annual-meeting-report-2012/

In the actual report ( http://www.jw.org/en/news/events-activities/annual-meeting-report-2012/ ) we have:

Quote
When Did Jesus Appoint “the Faithful and Discreet Slave” Over His Domestics?

Consider the context of Jesus’ words in Matthew chapter 24. All the verses listed here were to be fulfilled during Christ’s presence,
“the conclusion of the system of things.”—Verse 3.
“The tribulation of those days.”—Verse 29.
“This generation.”—Verse 34.
“That day and hour.”—Verse 36.
 The “day your Lord is coming.”—Verse 42.
“At an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.”—Verse 44.

Logically, then, “the faithful and discreet slave” must have appeared after Christ’s presence began in 1914.
Moreover, Jesus indicated that this “slave” would appear during a time when a legitimate question would be: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?” Jesus’ apostles had miraculous gifts of holy spirit, so there was scant reason to raise that question in the first century C.E. (1 Corinthians 14:12, 24, 25) Although they were anointed by holy spirit, the apostles and other first-century Christians were not “the faithful and discreet slave” prophesied by Jesus.

It is reasonable to conclude, then, that Jesus appointed “the faithful and discreet slave” over “his domestics” during his presence, “the conclusion of the system of things.”

“Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?”

Jesus was referring, not to an individual, but to a composite “slave”—a group working together as one body. Jesus said that the slave (1) is appointed to a supervisory role “over [the master’s] domestics” and (2) gives the domestics spiritual “food at the proper time.”

From 1919 on, there has always been a small group of anointed Christians at the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They have supervised our worldwide preaching work and have been directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. In recent years, that group has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The evidence points to the following conclusion: “The faithful and discreet slave” was appointed over Jesus’ domestics in 1919. That slave is the small, composite group of anointed brothers serving at world headquarters during Christ’s presence who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. When this group work together as the Governing Body, they act as “the faithful and discreet slave.”

It is clear that the JW governing body is not treating this passage properly as a parable which uses an ordinary day to day situation to teach a general point, but have distorted it into a prophecy that such a slave would emerge in history and have appropriated for their own aggrandisement.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 20, 2013, 03:46:36 pm
Can Christendom make that claim?  ???
As a whole, no.  When you lump everything together, of course that includes the bad apples.  "Can those holding the Bible is God's Word make that claim?"  No, so the JWs, who are part of that group, can be discarded.

Many Christian groups can make that claim - the Mennonites, for instance.

And the moment of Jesus' entering His Kingdom (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/where-debates-should-be-centred-on.-6021721.msg1275147906.html#msg1275147906) has been indicated in the Bible almost to the minute (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/where-debates-should-be-centred-on.-6021721.msg1275150345.html#msg1275150345), and it wasn't 1914.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: anuts on July 20, 2013, 04:54:08 pm
Suppose scripture is still unclear on this to you, doesn't it just seem intuitive that a person of non divinity would not be sufficient enough in the justice of sacrifice for all? That is; the sacrifice to end all sacrifices, the power to cover all sins, and to show the love the Father has over His most prized creation. If justice is of equal importance to love in the message than anything short of divinity is short on both.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 20, 2013, 06:49:13 pm
Suppose scripture is still unclear on this to you, doesn't it just seem intuitive that a person of non divinity would not be sufficient enough in the justice of sacrifice for all?

Do you understand the basis for the ransom anuts? ???

God's laws are reflected in all his activities. His justice is seen in all the laws he gave to Israel, they have existed in principle with God even before he wrote them down. But until he informed men of his laws, they could not really be held accountable for breaking them. (Rom 4:15)

Blood in the Bible is synonymous with life. That is why blood sacrifices were prescribed under the law. (Heb 9:22)
In order to make atonement for sin and keep living, they had to offer blood on the alter.

The blood atoned for the sin of Adam reflected in the nature of his children. But these animal sacrifices were temporary until the sacrifice of the Christ came and offered a ransom for the entire human race once and for all time. How did that work?

God's law required "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, life for life". (Ex 21:23-25) Equivalency satisfied Jehovah's perfect justice.

When Adam sinned, he lost his perfect life...he exchanged it for a piece of fruit offered by his now sinful wife.

It didn't end there however. Adam and his wife paid for their sin by undergoing the stated penalty...death.
But their children would inherit the stain of sin from them, through no fault on their part. (Rom 5:12)
In order to rescue them from this never ending cycle of sin and death, a perfect life had to be offered in exchange for the perfect life that Adam forfeited. No human was now perfect in order to provide it. A perfect human could only come from outside the now sinful human race, but he had to be a descendant of Adam (but without sin,) in order to balance the scales of justice. Jesus willingly offered to be that sacrifice and offer his life for all of Adam's children.

It is true that Jesus died for all, but there were conditions, just as there were conditions in Eden. Continued life was dependent on obedience to the Father. That same condition applied to Adam's children too. Only those obedient to the word of God and the teachings that came through his son, would inherit everlasting life.

Quote
That is; the sacrifice to end all sacrifices, the power to cover all sins, and to show the love the Father has over His most prized creation. If justice is of equal importance to love in the message than anything short of divinity is short on both.

Not so. The divine justice of the Father is satisfied in the sacrifice of his son. Jesus did not have to be God in order to offer a perfect life for humankind. All he had to be was trustworthy of the assignment.

Think about this....our Father has given free will to very powerful beings and as long as there were no others of lesser power, there was no problem that we are aware of. But God extended his creative abilities to material beings on a material planet in a material universe. These "lesser beings" ("a little lower than angels" Heb 1:7) were now seen by satan the usurper, God's adversary, as legitimate worshippers. He could be to them, what he told Eve she could be..."Like God".

A trustworthy son was needed when others had abused their free will and betrayed him, both in heaven and on earth. Free will was a precious gift and God was not going to withdraw it in order to gain man's obedience. He would allow choice in this life and death issue.

The whole scenario in Eden was about sovereignty.....God's Universal Sovereignty. Getting the human race to disobey the Father allowed satan to get what he had obviously always wanted.

Right up to this day, we are being tested to see whom we will chose as our God.

The devil has set up a rival for everything Jehovah has and is. He mimics what Jehovah does and draws worshippers to himself by lying to them. Deception s his stock in trade. His tricks are not new, but with each new generation, he must teach them the same lies in order for the worship he desires to continue.

Mankind have been choosing their god(s) from the beginning. We are still choosing even today.

According to the Bible, satan has the "many" on the wrong road.... Even those who think that they are Christians. (Matt 7:13 14; 21-23)

It's time to wake up and see Christendom for what she really is, a fake Christianity created by the devil.....and vote with your feet. (Rev 18:4, 5)

Time is running out.  :(

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 21, 2013, 12:38:36 am
The one flaw in this argument is that Jesus was back in heaven as supposedly part of the godhead again, so how does one part of God call another part of himself, "my God"?

This is actually more complicated than it seems, but I'll leave it at this as it's relatively unimportant.

Again, Trinitarians view the Father as functionally superior to Jesus (he's the team leader, so to speak) and as such it would be appropriate for him to be viewed as Jesus' God. Also
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 02:14:01 am
When Jesus discussed his father which is God, he referenced him as a third person.

This verse says it all.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

And here is another verse where he spoke of  God as a third person

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


So, no, Jesus is not God

there are tons and tons of references where Jesus clearly spoke of God as a third person.

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 21, 2013, 02:45:51 am
Jem,
That's all very well - you've given a good explanation of parables and their function. it's just that the JW hierarchy goes a lot further in turning this parable into a prophecy.

Just curious to ask if you believe that the parable of the wheat and the weeds is a prophesy? What about the ten virgins?

Quote
It is clear that the JW governing body is not treating this passage properly as a parable which uses an ordinary day to day situation to teach a general point, but have distorted it into a prophecy that such a slave would emerge in history and have appropriated for their own aggrandisement.

If you insist lapwing, I can't tell you what to believe. All I can do is tell the message that has been given me to tell.

What you do with it is up to you.  :-\
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 21, 2013, 05:38:30 am
The parable of the ten virgins has an eschatological message but is not meant to refer to a specific future event or set of people.

All I've done is present to you and others what the JW leadership have said in their meetings. It wasn't falsified.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 21, 2013, 06:00:45 am
The wheat and the tares and the ten virgins parables have an eschatological message but that doesn't make them prophecy. Interesting that JWs haven't appropriated the ten virgins to themselves.

Did the parable translate into reality lapwing? Were there weeds or tares sown among the "wheat"?

Will the harvest take place just as Jesus said? If it does, that makes it a prophesy.

His disciples approached Him and said, “Explain the parable of the weeds in the field to us.”

He replied: “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man;  the field is the world; and the good seed—these are the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,  and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.  Therefore, just as the weeds are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.  The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather from His kingdom everything that causes sin and those guilty of lawlessness.  They will throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s kingdom. Anyone who has ears should listen!"
(Matt 13:36-43)

"Oversowing a wheat field with weeds is a deed of enmity not unknown in the Middle East. “The weeds” referred to are usually believed to be the poisonous bearded darnel (Lolium temulentum), its poisonous properties generally thought to stem from a fungus growing within these seeds. It has an appearance much like that of wheat until maturity, but then it can be readily identified. If eaten, it can result in dizziness and, under certain circumstances, even death. Since the roots of these weeds readily become intertwined with the roots of the wheat, to uproot them before harvest, even if they could be identified, would result in loss of wheat." (Insight Volumes)

The harvest time is almost upon us......the prophesy will come to fulfillment.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 21, 2013, 08:10:25 am
God's law required "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, life for life". (Ex 21:23-25) Equivalency satisfied Jehovah's perfect justice.
Jem,
I have shown several times that this verse is inapplicable in two ways: it talks about the wrong crime (bodily injury, whereas here we are dealing with sacrilege and theft), and it was already superseded by Jesus himself (Matthew 5:38-39).

If this is what your "slave" is teaching you, he is not feeding you but maltreating you.  He's definitely not a faithful slave.

Quote
Jesus did not have to be God in order to offer a perfect life for humankind. All he had to be was trustworthy of the assignment.
He had to be infinite to pay the price.
He had to be God to free from the Law (Romans 7:3).  The covenant was with God, so God had to die to free us from it.  This too I have explained in detail before.
If Jesus weren't God, the old covenants would still be in full force and condemn us, as Colossians 2:14 would have been false.

A faithful slave would teach you this; a faithless rebel would teach the opposite.

Quote
The devil has set up a rival for everything Jehovah has and is. He mimics what Jehovah does and draws worshippers to himself by lying to them.  Deception is his stock in trade.
Think about this one.

Quote
Time is running out.  :(
So please, get away from this deceiver posing as a "faithful slave" while you still can!
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 21, 2013, 09:11:06 am
Jem,
I was not precise enough in defining prophecy so I apologise for that.

Note that I said "The wheat and the tares and the ten virgins parables have an eschatological message".
Eschatology="the part of theology concerned with death, judgement, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind" from http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/eschatology?q=eschatological#eschatology__4
So I was saying that these parables are concerned with the final destiny of humankind i.e. future events

When I said "not a prophecy" I meant that a a parable such as that of the faithful servant in Mt 24 doesn't mean that a particular person or persons will emerge who actually is this faithful servant. This is the error the JW leadership have made and I have shown you. They are saying that they are actually the "faithful and discreet slave". So they are making two false claims:

1. The parable is referring to an actual person or persons who will emerge later in history. This is an abuse of scripture and this abuse I have termed as the parable not being a prophecy i.e. not predicting specific future events.
Prophecy="a prediction of what will happen in the future" from http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/prophecy?q=prophecy

2. The JW leadership fulfil this alleged prophecy.

Of course you have not acknowledged this with your head firmly in the sand.

I believe the same is true of the parable of the ten virgins. Again the message is to be ready in view of the suddenness of Christ's return. However, I do hope that the JWs are not holding ten virgins as prisoners in Brooklyn with oil lamps waiting for Christ's return. But to be consistent with their wrong interpretation of the "faithful and discreet slave" maybe they ought to.

Now if you take prophecy to mean just a general foretelling of the future then to say the parable of the wheat and the tares is eschatological but not prophetic is a contradiction. So I have changed my posting to clarify. I wonder if you will acknowledge the way your leadership have distorted scripture to their own ends.

Of course, if you define prophecy as "forth telling" i.e. speaking God's word then since Jesus spoke God's word then they would count as prophecy but not always prediction.

NB: The noun is "prophecy" the verb is "prophesy".
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 01:53:07 pm
The wheat and the tares and the ten virgins parables have an eschatological message but that doesn't make them prophecy. Interesting that JWs haven't appropriated the ten virgins to themselves.

Did the parable translate into reality lapwing? Were there weeds or tares sown among the "wheat"?

Will the harvest take place just as Jesus said? If it does, that makes it a prophesy.

His disciples approached Him and said, “Explain the parable of the weeds in the field to us.”

He replied: “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man;  the field is the world; and the good seed—these are the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,  and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.  Therefore, just as the weeds are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.  The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather from His kingdom everything that causes sin and those guilty of lawlessness.  They will throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s kingdom. Anyone who has ears should listen!"
(Matt 13:36-43)

"Oversowing a wheat field with weeds is a deed of enmity not unknown in the Middle East. “The weeds” referred to are usually believed to be the poisonous bearded darnel (Lolium temulentum), its poisonous properties generally thought to stem from a fungus growing within these seeds. It has an appearance much like that of wheat until maturity, but then it can be readily identified. If eaten, it can result in dizziness and, under certain circumstances, even death. Since the roots of these weeds readily become intertwined with the roots of the wheat, to uproot them before harvest, even if they could be identified, would result in loss of wheat." (Insight Volumes)

The harvest time is almost upon us......the prophesy will come to fulfillment.

applaud.

For the life of me I can not understand how people can assert Jesus said these things just for the heck of it and there is no message in his parables.

To be blunt here, when Jesus was talking about the weeds of the earth, he was referring to people like dawkins and all he blind followers.
His heart goes out to them, but they are choosing their own path to destruction.

I find it rather disturbing that they then blame God for giving them the free will to not choose him.

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: anuts on July 21, 2013, 02:17:02 pm
When Jesus discussed his father which is God, he referenced him as a third person.

This verse says it all.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

And here is another verse where he spoke of  God as a third person

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


So, no, Jesus is not God

there are tons and tons of references where Jesus clearly spoke of God as a third person.

Respectfully, that's not an argument against the Trinity. Trinitarian doctrine also teaches the respective three are also separate and distinct persons.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 02:22:19 pm
When Jesus discussed his father which is God, he referenced him as a third person.

This verse says it all.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

And here is another verse where he spoke of  God as a third person

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


So, no, Jesus is not God

there are tons and tons of references where Jesus clearly spoke of God as a third person.

Respectfully, that's not an argument against the Trinity. Trinitarian doctrine also teaches the respective three are also separate and distinct persons.

they are three separate beings.
I was arguing about the title of the thread by showing scripture that Jesus is not God  ;)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 21, 2013, 02:25:26 pm
No. They are three persons, one Being or essence or nature. You listed Scriptures that show Jesus is not the Father. Orthodox Christians believe that. In fact, in the OP I explicitly said those scriptures don't show that Jesus is not God.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 02:39:28 pm
No. They are three persons, one Being or essence or nature. You listed Scriptures that show Jesus is not the Father. Orthodox Christians believe that. In fact, in the OP I explicitly said those scriptures don't show that Jesus is not God.

That makes zero sense.

If Jesus refers to God as a third person and explained that not even he knows the day when God will return, how can he then be God?

Plus, in Scripture, he explained to one of the disciples that he would his at his right hand along with him next to God (sorry for paraphrasing, i forget the actual word for word)

But yah, how can he sit next to God if he is God?

How can you ignore the fact Jesus said no man come to the father but through me?

So if Jesus is in fact God, then we cant ever come to God, its becomes a paradox.

We cant come to the father directly but only through Jesus,
Jesus is the father so we cant come to the father directly.
Therefore we cant come to Jesus.

Plus, scripture says over and over that the Holy Spirit is a gift from God, it never says it is God.

Clearly The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings.

Scripture becomes contradictory and a paradox to suggest other wise.

How can you ignore when Jesus spoke to God and looked up to Heaven?

Even in the movie "Oh God, George Burns got it right when he said "so help me, me"

What did Jesus say as he hung on the cross?
"forgive them Father, they know not what they do"

he didnt say
"forgive them me" did he?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 21, 2013, 04:21:36 pm
If Jesus refers to God as a third person and explained that not even he knows the day when God will return, how can he then be God?

Because Jesus is both God and man. This is the biblical doctrine of the incarnation (John 1:1, 14; Philippians 2:5-8).

Plus, in Scripture, he explained to one of the disciples that he would his at his right hand along with him next to God (sorry for paraphrasing, i forget the actual word for word)

But yah, how can he sit next to God if he is God?

Could you please find the passage you are referring to?

How can you ignore the fact Jesus said no man come to the father but through me?

So if Jesus is in fact God, then we cant ever come to God, its becomes a paradox.

We cant come to the father directly but only through Jesus,
Jesus is the father so we cant come to the father directly.
Therefore we cant come to Jesus.

Jesus is not the Father.

Plus, scripture says over and over that the Holy Spirit is a gift from God, it never says it is God.

The Bible never says "Jesus existed".

Clearly The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings.

They are separate persons, that's true.

Scripture becomes contradictory and a paradox to suggest other wise.

No, it all becomes clear. No more need to distort God's word.

What did Jesus say as he hung on the cross?
"forgive them Father, they know not what they do"

he didnt say
"forgive them me" did he?

Jesus is not the Father.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 21, 2013, 04:23:53 pm
God's law required "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, life for life". (Ex 21:23-25) Equivalency satisfied Jehovah's perfect justice.
Jem,
I have shown several times that this verse is inapplicable in two ways: it talks about the wrong crime (bodily injury, whereas here we are dealing with sacrilege and theft), and it was already superseded by Jesus himself (Matthew 5:38-39).

Not so Biep. The principles of the law are everlasting, just as Jesus said, he came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it. The law of love summed up the whole law because love was the basis of it. (Matt 22:37-40)

The law demonstrated the principle of equivalency as a means to balance the scales of justice....why do we think that justice is symbolized by scales?

Quote
If this is what your "slave" is teaching you, he is not feeding you but maltreating you.  He's definitely not a faithful slave.
Can I ask, who is feeding you Biep? Do you have a global brotherhood that believes the same as you do?

I have complete confidence in the ones appointed by Jesus to feed his sheep. There are no ego driven "personalities" among Jehovah's people....just humble servants who go about doing their assigned work in an organized and efficient manner. We all hold the same beliefs and all preach one message in all nations. You really think that could be done the world over under persecution and opposition by mere men?
Just look at the fractured state of Christendom to answer that question.

Christendom proves every day that she is nothing close to what original Christianity proved itself to be.

Jehovah's people take care of one another as a global brotherhood. We operate as a well oiled machine delivering the good news to a globally unreceptive audience, just as Jesus said we should. (Matt 24:36-39)

When disaster strikes, Jehovah's people are often first on the scene, supporting their brothers, rebuilding their homes and lives and offering real support, both material and spiritual.

Quote
Quote
Jesus did not have to be God in order to offer a perfect life for humankind. All he had to be was trustworthy of the assignment.
He had to be infinite to pay the price.

Who said? All he had to be was perfect, sinless, to pay the ransom. Do you not understand the basis of the ransom Biep? It is a fundamental teaching in Christianity, yet how many people really understand how it works?

It's like the kingdom....what is it? How many "Christians" do you know who can tell you what God's kingdom is and can go out into towns and villages searching for "worthy" ones to tell them the good news about it, not just locally, but "in all the inhabited earth"? (Matt 10:11-15; 24:14) There is one Christianity and only one truth. We have to wade through the fake Christians (weeds) to see who fulfills the criteria Jesus gave to identify his true disciples. It isn't by what they say (talk is cheap) it's about what they do. Actions speak louder than words..."doing the will of the Father".

Quote
He had to be God to free from the Law (Romans 7:3).  The covenant was with God, so God had to die to free us from it.  This too I have explained in detail before.
If Jesus weren't God, the old covenants would still be in full force and condemn us, as Colossians 2:14 would have been false.

Again, who said?

It was God who freed his people from the "curse" of the law by sending his son to pay the ransom for them.
Where does it say in the scriptures that Jesus had to be God to do that? He was the means that God used to free Adam's children, He is not the one who gave them the law in the first place. That law was from his Father.
Col 2:14 is simply stating what God did with regard to the law because of Jesus' sacrifice, it cannot be used as proof that he was God.

Quote
A faithful slave would teach you this; a faithless rebel would teach the opposite.

You obviously do not have such a slave if you do not understand the nuts and bolts of the ransom and the requirements of God's justice. These are basic Biblical concepts.
Faithless rebels will keep you deceived. You will also be part of the "many" who are on the wrong road. (Matt 7:12, 14, 21-23)

Quote
Quote
Time is running out.  :(
So please, get away from this deceiver posing as a "faithful slave" while you still can!
Ditto  :(
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 04:32:00 pm
Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God and coming in the clouds of heaven.

this isn't the exact passage I was looking for but never the less, Jesus said  he will be sitting by the power of God, he never ever in the Bible claims to be God.

For those who keep saying he is God, provide scripture that backs that up.

I have provided plenty of scripture where he talks to God as a third person, he does that throughout his walk on earth.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 21, 2013, 04:32:32 pm
When Jesus discussed his father which is God, he referenced him as a third person.

This verse says it all.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

And here is another verse where he spoke of  God as a third person

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


So, no, Jesus is not God

there are tons and tons of references where Jesus clearly spoke of God as a third person.

Respectfully, that's not an argument against the Trinity. Trinitarian doctrine also teaches the respective three are also separate and distinct persons.

they are three separate beings.
I was arguing about the title of the thread by showing scripture that Jesus is not God  ;)

But all Trinitarians believe that they're three separate persons, so how does that argue against the thread title?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 04:42:41 pm
Huh?

How can someone say they agree that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are three different people, then in the next breathe say that they are not?

I am leaving this thread with repeated scripture

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Matthew 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying,  O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

So if you wish to assert Jesus and God are the same person, then who was he talking to and praying to through out his walk on earth?
the only other option is that he was bi-polar and talk to himself as a third person.

We all know Jesus was perfect, so bi-polar is not a valid option.

If you wish to believe otherwise, I cant stop you, and since we are all repeating ourselves.

case closed, I win  ;D

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 21, 2013, 04:48:45 pm
I would say that for JW laypeople it's because they are told the Trinity is not true and they have a poor translation which tries to drive home that point.

You know these kinds of comments just make me laugh. JW's have no "laypeople". We have no "clergy". That is an idea that Christendom created to give power to people who didn't need it, but wanted it. Christ said all were "brothers" and not to give honorary titles to anyone as if their position or education somehow makes them superior. We have a "faithful slave" who is assigned to "feed" the rest of the "slaves" in the household their "food at the proper time". The slave is not appointed as head over the other slaves but is just assigned to "feed" them. (Matt 24:45-47; John 21:15-17; Matt 23:8-11)

Do you understand that all of Jehovah's Witnesses are Bible students?  We have a body of elders, but they don't necessarily know more than we do. They are shepherds and guides and they present us with instruction from the "slave", but they have no diplomas, making them a special "learned" class. They are at the meetings learning from the slave right alongside us. We are all ordained ministers of the kingdom, Preaching and teaching others just as the first century disciples of Jesus did. You put such great store by your college diplomas....Jesus never had one and neither did the 12. (Acts 4:13) The apostle Paul was the closest thing Jesus had to a scholar, as a former Pharisee educated at the feet of Gamaliel. Paul, however is not one of the 12 foundation stones of Christ's congregation, even though he was used more than any other apostle in the writing of the Christian scriptures.

Quote
As for the more scholarly JW people, I will focus on Greg Stafford who has been called the greatest JW apologist (even though he recently left and told people to get out because of the mind control of the WTBTS [the JWs]). 

You can "focus" on whomever you like. I have never heard of Greg Stafford. And as far as I know, in 40 years I have never heard of any apologist speaking for JW's in the world. We don't need them. The truth speaks for itself when we call on people in all nations with the good news.
He went out from us because he disagreed...big deal. Who is he supposed to be? He is no one we recognize.

As far as we are concerned, getting information from apostates is akin to asking Judas Iscariot how he felt about Jesus Christ.  (1 John 2:19-21)

Quote
He agrees that Thomas calls Jesus Lord and God and his big hang up seems to be a defunct metaphysics.  He reasons that if he can't get his head around how the Trinity or incarnation could be true, then it can't be.

Would you care what Judas Iscariot had to say about anything? That is how we feel about those who have left Jehovah's spiritual family. It is their loss, not ours. He is free to believe whatever he likes. Where is he now? In no man's land with all the other ex JW's who now have to come to terms with the fact that they don't belong anywhere. Once you learn the truth, and you see Christendom for what she is, you cannot unlearn it.
There is simply nowhere to go that is approved by God.

Quote
JWs and those who reject the fact that Jesus is God on this board might disagree and claim that scripture supports them, but if they say as much then I invite them to interact with my exegesis in the OP.
Not that old cry again....seriously, you say "MY exegesis" like you thought it all up by yourself. Did you really? Are you not simply parroting off your own preferred scholars? There is not really an original thought in any of it, is there?

Sorry, but "your" exegesis means nothing to me.  :-\
(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/dam/assets/130703091205-fans-cheering-single-image-cut.jpg)


You took the words right outta my mouth :D
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: anuts on July 21, 2013, 04:49:55 pm
Huh?

How can someone say they agree that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are three different people, then in the next breathe say that they are not?

I am leaving this thread with one repeated scripture

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

So if you wish to assert Jesus and God are the same person, then who was he talking to through out his walk on earth?
the only other option is that he was bi-polar and talk to himself as a third person.

We all know Jesus was perfect, so bi-polar is not a valid option.

If you wish to believe otherwise, I cant stop you, and since we are all repeating ourselves.

case closed, I win  ;D

You keep misunderstanding the Trinitarian position. It does not say that Jesus is the Father (or the Holy Spirit for that matter). When Jesus spoke about the Father or to the Father, of course He would address it accordingly. They are separate and distinct persons. The Trinity says as much. Here's an illustration that may help with at least understanding the position:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg/520px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 21, 2013, 04:51:20 pm
If Jesus refers to God as a third person and explained that not even he knows the day when God will return, how can he then be God?

Because Jesus is both God and man. This is the biblical doctrine of the incarnation (John 1:1, 14; Philippians 2:5-8).

Neither of those scriptures suggests that there is a trinity. John 1:1 has been explained very clearly and it doesn't speak about three person in one godhead anyway. And Phil 2:5-8 is saying that Jesus never claimed equality with his Father.

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
(NASB)

Quote
Plus, in Scripture, he explained to one of the disciples that he would his at his right hand along with him next to God (sorry for paraphrasing, i forget the actual word for word)

But yah, how can he sit next to God if he is God?

Could you please find the passage you are referring to?

The mother of sons of Zebedee asked for positions in the kingdom for her sons....one at his right and one at his left.....

"He said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” (Matt 20:23)

Quote
How can you ignore the fact Jesus said no man come to the father but through me?

So if Jesus is in fact God, then we cant ever come to God, its becomes a paradox.

We cant come to the father directly but only through Jesus,
Jesus is the father so we cant come to the father directly.
Therefore we cant come to Jesus.

Jesus is not the Father.


True...and he isn't the Almighty either. Show us the trinity in scripture.

Show us "God the son" or "God the Holy Spirit"...show us where "theos" is ever used with reference to the holy spirit? There is no trinity.

Quote
Plus, scripture says over and over that the Holy Spirit is a gift from God, it never says it is God.

The Bible never says "Jesus existed".
What? ???

Quote
Scripture becomes contradictory and a paradox to suggest other wise.

No, it all becomes clear. No more need to distort God's word.

I doubt that it could become more distorted than to completely change the concept of who God is!  :-[

Christendom worships a different God to the one Jesus himself worshiped. (Luke 4:8; Rev 3:12)  :(
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 04:54:42 pm
Huh?

How can someone say they agree that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are three different people, then in the next breathe say that they are not?

I am leaving this thread with one repeated scripture

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

So if you wish to assert Jesus and God are the same person, then who was he talking to through out his walk on earth?
the only other option is that he was bi-polar and talk to himself as a third person.

We all know Jesus was perfect, so bi-polar is not a valid option.

If you wish to believe otherwise, I cant stop you, and since we are all repeating ourselves.

case closed, I win  ;D

You keep misunderstanding the Trinitarian position. It does not say that Jesus is the Father (or the Holy Spirit for that matter). When Jesus spoke about the Father or to the Father, of course He would address it accordingly. They are separate and distinct persons. The Trinity says as much. Here's an illustration that may help with at least understanding the position:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg/520px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png)

big hole in that theory

Matthew 26:39
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Yah, I know I said I was done here, but this must be said.

We dont take out scripture that does not fit with our belief system, that is not how it works.

Matthew clear said GOD gave us his ONLY son.
there was no "but his son was him" "but the father is not God"

Point blank,
God gave us his only son and his son spoke to his father as a third person.

there is no Father Son Holy Spirit and God too, scripture does not teach that.
there is only three.

The Father (God) the Holy Spirit(Gods Gift) and Jesus(Gods Son)

that is what scripture teaches and we go by Gods word, not mans word.

Amen
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 21, 2013, 04:57:52 pm
Hmm. A big problem that our brothers seem to be having is that they just don't really understand the Trinity at all. And because they are convinced beforehand that it is heretical, they really have no care to try and first understand. But I think that this problem is easy to fix, once we're willing.

Now I would never describe myself as a Trinitarian because I truly believe that God is much more than that, and that the Trinity is just a human thought experiment to try and conceptualize Him. But I do find it plainly evident that Jesus is God, and that Trinitarianism is a much more coherent understanding than Unitarianism.

I mean seriously seeing things like "1+1+1=3 not 1 God" or something along those lines is very discouraging. It's like a blatant declaration of one's ignorance on the subject. Before we argue, we should really come to understand one another.

We are brothers in Christ. Let's stop these accusations of heresy and actually work towards fixing the problem. If there is one thing I find annoying, it is that sometimes we care more about attacking each other than about building each other up. This is an apologist forum yes, but we are the Church first. We can act like it, even on very serious issues such as this one.


"What fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? [W]hat harmony is there between Christ and Be′li‧al?" - 2 Corinthians 6:14,15


This is why we who sustain the plenitude of God's word, The Bible, will always clash with those who seek to pervert it with their Trinitarian philosophies.


"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 21, 2013, 05:00:11 pm
Huh?

How can someone say they agree that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are three different people, then in the next breathe say that they are not?

I am leaving this thread with one repeated scripture

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

So if you wish to assert Jesus and God are the same person, then who was he talking to through out his walk on earth?
the only other option is that he was bi-polar and talk to himself as a third person.

We all know Jesus was perfect, so bi-polar is not a valid option.

If you wish to believe otherwise, I cant stop you, and since we are all repeating ourselves.

case closed, I win  ;D

You keep misunderstanding the Trinitarian position. It does not say that Jesus is the Father (or the Holy Spirit for that matter). When Jesus spoke about the Father or to the Father, of course He would address it accordingly. They are separate and distinct persons. The Trinity says as much. Here's an illustration that may help with at least understanding the position:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg/520px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png)

We who know what the Bible teaches (as opposed to what Christendom teaches) understand that the trinity is an invented nonsense. It is a blasphemous teaching that is insulting to Jesus as Jehovah's most trusted and faithful servant and to the Most High God who has no equal.

Can you say that this illustration you posted is from the Bible, or is this the same as evolution portraying early man as part ape when they have no such evidence? Christendom gave you this concept, NOT the Bible...do you understand this?  ???
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 21, 2013, 05:09:35 pm
We who know what the Bible teaches (as opposed to what Christendom teaches) understand that the trinity is an invented nonsense.

So you are saying that you who know what the Bible teaches understand that the Bible is nonsensical.  ::)

It is a blasphemous teaching that is insulting to Jesus as Jehovah's most trusted and faithful servant and to the Most High God who has no equal.

So you are saying that the Bible is blasphemous.  :o

Can you say that this illustration you posted is from the Bible, or is this the same as evolution portraying early man as part ape when they have no such evidence? Christendom gave you this concept, NOT the Bible...do you understand this?  ???

The concept which is based on the clear biblical evidence.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 05:10:32 pm
@Jem

exactly, its an embarrassment to Jesus and pretty much is calling him a liar.

Every time someone asked, "what religion is correct?"

the obvious reply is "the one Jesus and his disciples taught"

then they go, "but my pastor says this and that"
"does it say this and that in the Bible?"
"No"

"Here's your sign"
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 21, 2013, 05:14:48 pm
You are rejecting and resisting God's word. That is so sad. :(

Repent and believe in the testimony of the Bible. Forsake those man-made doctrines.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 21, 2013, 05:21:18 pm
The concept which is based on the clear biblical evidence.


Problem is, the Bible unmistakably teaches otherwise: 
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 21, 2013, 05:27:14 pm
Problem is, the Bible teaches otherwise

Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 21, 2013, 05:48:25 pm
You are rejecting and resisting God's word. That is so sad. :(

Repent and believe in the testimony of the Bible. Forsake those man-made doctrines.

O dear  :-[

veka, the word of God was corrupted a very long time ago. What you believe is a corruption...it is not truth.

The trinity is a man made doctrine....so is hellfire....so is immortality of the soul. None of these are taught in the Bible. Even the cross is pagan.
They were all introduced long after Jesus and the Bible writers died. The foretold apostasy took place just as it was foretold. These teachings were a product of that apostasy.
They have been around so long that no one wants to question them.

If the foundations of your faith are faulty, you building will not withstand the storm that is coming.

Pleas do some research and you will see that your faith is misplaced and you worship is going to the wrong god.  :(
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 21, 2013, 06:01:47 pm
Problem is, the Bible teaches otherwise

Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
Your quarrel is with God, not me. It is his Word that states:

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 21, 2013, 06:08:25 pm
Quote from: God is Good
For those who keep saying he is God, provide scripture that backs that up.
Have you read and thought about the OPs to this thread? The fact that you are confusing the Father with Jehovah strongly suggests you haven't.

According to your thesis the reference to Jesus as "the only begotten God" in Jn 1:18 proves he is God.

Jem,
Philippians 2:6 tells us that Jesus didn't regard the equality with God that he had, as something to be "prized" rather than come to earth to save us. He voluntarily gave up his majesty to be born as a human baby.

"Show us the trinity in scripture." Hypocritical given your refusal to respond to the OPs of this thread

"show us where "theos" is ever used with reference to the holy spirit?"
3Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” Acts 5:3,4 NIV
God here is theos

This is in post #233 of "God and the lamb" another post you have refused to reply to. Btw if the Holy Spirit is a force and not a person then how can you lie to it.
"I lied to the west wind" - that doesn't work does it.

Quote from: Jem
Can you say that this illustration you posted is from the Bible
Earlier you asked me whether I had read any JW literature in the past. I have but can you explain to me why Watchtower/Awake pictures of Jesus and other Bible characters look like they have just stepped out of a 1950s N American TV advert. They never look Jewish i.e. Semitic. Are the JWs racially prejudiced?

Maxx
Quotes from the discredited NWT I suppose.
All these quotes say is that Jehovah was thought to be a father to the Israel. There are other scriptures that indicate Jehovah was a mother to Israel as well:

Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! Is 49:15 NIV

You only quoted part of the verse in 1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The word for "Lord" here is used throughout the Septuagint for Jehovah.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 21, 2013, 06:09:44 pm
You are rejecting and resisting God's word. That is so sad. :(

Repent and believe in the testimony of the Bible. Forsake those man-made doctrines.

veka, the word of God was corrupted a very long time ago.


If I may, Jehovah God's word remains as true today as it was when first recorded. I think what you're trying to communicate is that many have gnarled and contorted God's teachings or that many have tried to corrupt God's Word with their specious philosophies, yes? :)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 06:10:40 pm
Problem is, the Bible teaches otherwise

Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.

No offense but plenty of us have scripture to support what we say, where is yours?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 21, 2013, 06:14:29 pm
lapwing, that is pointless. They don't listen sound biblical reasoning.

John 8:24 Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 06:26:38 pm
Quote from: God is Good
For those who keep saying he is God, provide scripture that backs that up.
Have you read and thought about the OPs to this thread? The fact that you are confusing the Father with Jehovah strongly suggests you haven't.

According to your thesis the reference to Jesus as "the only begotten God" in Jn 1:18 proves he is God.

Quote from: GiG
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jem,
Philippians 2:6 tells us that Jesus didn't regard the equality with God that he had, as something to be "prized" rather than come to earth to save us. He voluntarily gave up his majesty to be born as a human baby.
Quote from: GiG
Philippians 2:5-6
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

Quote from: GiG
Acts 5:3-4
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

That clear never says that Jesus is God and is also the Holy Spirit

So basically, if you steal and I say "how can you steal before God?"
That means I am God now too?
Remember God sees all, which was the point Peter was making.

Now, I rebutted your indirect quoting of scripture, specially for the fact you used the NIV which has tons of misinterpretations and twisting of the original text.
The King James version is the only version translated word for word and not twisted.

No one has even tried to refute all the scripture I posted.
Why is that?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 21, 2013, 06:34:50 pm
Quote from: God is Good
For those who keep saying he is God, provide scripture that backs that up.
The fact that you are confusing the Father with Jehovah strongly suggests you haven't.


Are you seriously calling Almighty God a liar?
Quote
According to your thesis the reference to Jesus as "the only begotten God" in Jn 1:18 proves he is God.


God was created? Who created God?


Quote
God here is theos
Keep reading. "“Why was it agreed upon between you two to make a test of the spirit of Jehovah?”" - Acts 5:9


Quote
Quotes from the discredited NWT I suppose.
Argumentum ad veneficium fontem. You really don't think only the NWT employs God's personal name, "Jehovah", throughout, do you?


A better question is, why do you insist on relying on Bible versions that have been disparaged as poor translations of the original Bible languages? These mendaciously render יְהוָ֑ה as "LORD" when the Hebrew word for "Lord" is אדני – "Adonai".


Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 06:35:58 pm
lapwing, that is pointless. They don't listen sound biblical reasoning.

John 8:24 Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.

You completely left out where Jesus explained who HE WAS and IS
John 8:24-28
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

26  I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

again with twisted scripture.
Jesus clearly was telling them he was relaying what God told him, never did he say he was God, he said he was the son of God.

so yah, why haven't anyone refuted my QUOTING OF SCRIPTURE?
and can only post tidbits of scripture and use unreliable translations and purposely leave out the rest of what Jesus says, that show what is actually being discussed?

@Maxximiliann
Nothing you posted says Jesus is God, everything I posted proves Jesus is the son of God.
nearly all your scripture is referring to God and is from the Old Testament, long before Jesus even came.
Again, everything you posted is in reference to God himself, none in reference to Jesus.
You are the one lying before God.

why have you not rebutted all the evidence of scripture that I posted showing Jesus talking to God as a third person?

No one has even taken one stab at my numerous posts.
Why is this?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 21, 2013, 06:43:28 pm
Huh?

How can someone say they agree that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are three different people, then in the next breathe say that they are not?

But no one says that... We say they're three persons, and one being. God is one being, who is three persons. You hand is one hand, with five fingers. Understand?

Quote
So if you wish to assert Jesus and God are the same person, then who was he talking to and praying to through out his walk on earth?
the only other option is that he was bi-polar and talk to himself as a third person.

God is not a person on the Trinitarian view, that is not what Trinitarians say.

Quote
If you wish to believe otherwise, I cant stop you, and since we are all repeating ourselves.

case closed, I win  ;D

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Lol... Gypsy, you're attacking a view that is not Trinitarian. You can't win against someone you're not even fighting. You're saying that the father and the son are distinct people, which is exactly what Trinitarians say.

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 21, 2013, 06:47:13 pm
Just a question in regards to God before creation took place. Taking the JW doctrine, God (Jehovah) (Father) is alone God. God prior to creation existed by himself. Not sure if you believe Angels to be eternal, correct me if I'm wrong here. If God in his essence was alone and God is 'love', what does he love, himself?

If we are made in Gods image, then wouldn't our nature be to love ourselves first? I guess in todays society that is true, but in general we desire relationship first which tells me that if we are created in Gods image, God then would also require relationship, but prior to any creation at all, how does God fulfil this if he were alone, did he just love himself?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 06:49:13 pm
@Curt J. O'Brian

So why they arguing with me if they agree with me and why are they saying I am calling God a liar?

plus, did you not say Jesus is God, but they are three separate beings in the same sentence you quoted to me?

who is attacking who?  :-\

So, I am going nuts, no one is debating me at all?
wow Curt

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 21, 2013, 06:49:26 pm
Exactly right, Snoochies. God cannot be a person.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 21, 2013, 06:52:41 pm
You are rejecting and resisting God's word. That is so sad. :(

Repent and believe in the testimony of the Bible. Forsake those man-made doctrines.

veka, the word of God was corrupted a very long time ago.


If I may, Jehovah God's word remains as true today as it was when first recorded. I think what you're trying to communicate is that many have gnarled and contorted God's teachings or that many have tried to corrupt God's Word with their specious philosophies, yes? :)

Sorry,  :-[  yes that is what I meant. They have taken God's word and forced erroneous teachings to fit it.

If one had no notion of a trinity before reading the Bible, they would not find it explicitly taught in the Bible...no hellfire...no immortal soul....no cross. All were added later as apostasy took a foothold and the weeds took over the field, just as Jesus said.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 06:59:49 pm
Exactly right, Snoochies. God cannot be a person.

I am seriously confused now.

Did you not say Jesus is God?
Jesus was a living person.

I cant go back and read every single post all over again.

if I am debating people agreeing with me, I am sorry, I am totally lost now.

recap.

The Father(God) Jesus(Gods Son) The Holy Ghost(Gods Gift)

Three separate beings, there is no fourth being which are all of them as one.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 21, 2013, 07:00:55 pm

You are the one lying before God.


What lie are you accusing me of proclaiming?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 21, 2013, 07:01:32 pm
@Curt J. O'Brian

So why they arguing with me if they agree with me and why are they saying I am calling God a liar?

plus, did you not say Jesus is God, but they are three separate beings in the same sentence you quoted to me?

who is attacking who?  :-\

So, I am going nuts, no one is debating me at all?
wow Curt

No, God the Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit are three persons in one being. Can you not imagine three minds trapped in one body? It happens all of the time in T.V. shows and movies lol, it's not beyond human imagination.

I think you're running into arguments based on what you're trying to say, not what you're saying. What you're saying is compatible with the Trinity, but you're trying to say the Trinity is false, and that's why people are arguing with you lol.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 21, 2013, 07:07:22 pm
We say they're three persons, and one being. God is one being, who is three persons. You hand is one hand, with five fingers.


Argumentum per falsam analogiam. The Athanasian Creed clearly states, "the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God." In other words, "your index finger is your hand, your middle finger is your hand and your ring finger is your hand."


If anything, your analogy disproves the Athanasian Creed; it reveals just how nonsensical it truly is.



Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 07:12:19 pm
@Curt J. O'Brian

Oh my, first you say I am fighting people that agree with me, and now you say they are fighting with me because they disagree with me.  :-\

which is it bro?

Dude, I have respect for you, but to compare God to a made up TV show?

God isnt forsay a mind at all.
Jesus wasa living person with a mind though

The Holy Ghost is a gift from God, its not a mind either.
I dont have an extra mind inside me.

Jesus is sitting at Gods right hand, he is not inside God.
No where does it say that in the Bible, but it does say where Jesus explained he is sitting at Gods right hand.

No where does Jesus say is is God, he clearly asserts it 8926745478265 times that he is Gods son and the the Holy Ghost is Gods gift.

No one has shown one scripture that supports what they say, I have refuted many that have tried.
No one has even attempted to refute the scripture I posted.

But you keep insisting I am wrong and you are right.

You have to show where the scripture I posted is wrong, not just assert it, k?

If I am wrong, prove it, I desire the truth too you know.
But I am not accepting opinions as truth, prove the scripture I posted is incorrect.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 21, 2013, 07:22:58 pm
Just a question in regards to God before creation took place. Taking the JW doctrine, God (Jehovah) (Father) is alone God. God prior to creation existed by himself. Not sure if you believe Angels to be eternal, correct me if I'm wrong here. If God in his essence was alone and God is 'love', what does he love, himself?

Trying to understand an eternal God whose cardinal quality is love, and who at some point in his perfect existence decided to become a creator is not something that finite mortal creatures can really understand IMO. There is more that we don't know about Jehovah in our imperfection than what we do know for sure from what he reveals about himself in his word.
There was so much more that Jesus said and did that is not recorded, that would be very interesting to know....one day, perhaps we will...? or not? (John 21:25)

Quote
If we are made in Gods image, then wouldn't our nature be to love ourselves first? I guess in todays society that is true, but in general we desire relationship first which tells me that if we are created in Gods image, God then would also require relationship, but prior to any creation at all, how does God fulfil this if he were alone, did he just love himself?

That is an interesting question Snooch. We know that the Word was "with" his Father "in the beginning"
I am certain that the relationship that Jehovah had with his "only begotten son" was something that was forged over eons of time before the rest of creation was brought into existence.

The angels are not eternal beings; they are beings who enjoy everlasting life, just as God intended for man in the beginning.
Angels are not immortal (cannot die) and neither are we? Theirs and our continued existence depends upon our obedience to our Creator. All rebels, both human and angelic will end up in the "lake of fire"....eternal destruction. (Matt 25:41) Fire symbolizes total destruction.

Love is a quality that we can have regardless of whether it is exhibited or expressed toward others or not. Do we really understand "how" we are 'made in God's image'? We do so imperfectly at present, but when we are restored to perfection, who knows what will be revealed to us about our awesome Creator?

Does the Creator love himself? What an odd question.....one would have to define both "love" and "God" to answer that.  :P
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 21, 2013, 07:23:27 pm
Oh my, first you say I am fighting people that agree with me, and now you say they are fighting with me because they disagree with me.  :-\

No lol, I'm saying you're both fighting each other.

Quote
Dude, I have respect for you, but to compare God to a made up TV show?

Is that somehow wrong? If a made up TV show portrayed God, could I not say that God in this T.V. show is like God in real life? I don't see anything wrong with comparing God to a T.V. show.

Quote
God isnt forsay a mind at all.
Jesus wasa living person with a mind though

What do you mean he isn't forsay a mind?

Quote
The Holy Ghost is a gift from God, its not a mind either.

This gift from God is referred to as a "he" and is called God, so...

Quote
Jesus is sitting at Gods right hand, he is not inside God.
No where does it say that in the Bible, but it does say where Jesus explained he is sitting at Gods right hand.

Did you read the original post, though? AAQ gives multiple verses that say Jesus is God.

Quote
No where does Jesus say is is God, he clearly asserts it 8926745478265 times that he is Gods son and the the Holy Ghost is Gods gift.

Right, but Trinitarians also believe he's the son of God, and that the Holy Spirit is a gift, so neither of those are objections to the Trinity.

Quote
No one has shown one scripture that supports what they say, I have refuted many that have tried.
No one has even attempted to refute the scripture I posted.

If you think I'm not willing to provide scripture in support of the Trinity, read the second post here (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/trinity/the-trinity-is-it-biblical-6021376.0.html). Also, read AAQ's first post in this thread where he goes over many.

What scriptures, in particular, do you feel pose a challenge to the Trinitarian view? Give me what you think are the best and I'll respond to them.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 07:29:27 pm
I posted many scriptures in the last two pages.
Plus I have successfully refuted ones posted at me and no one has even tried to refute what I said.

I am slowly behaving just like most everyone else here, ignore everything and just ramble on with my own conclusions and I dont like that so its time for me to leave for a while.

its one thing that atheists do it, but now my fellow Christians are doing it too.

mind showing me where the Bible it refers to the Holy Spirit as a "he" and as being "God" personally?

edit
About TV, I go by what Jesus taught, not by what TV says Jesus taught.

Tv almost ever takes real life and portray it exactly, they alter much of it so its more dramatic and appealing, the truth to them isn't even relevant.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 21, 2013, 10:37:06 pm
Quote from: GodisGood
The King James version is the only version translated word for word and not twisted.
So theopneustos (1 word) in 2 Tim 3:16
KJV: "given by inspiration of God" 5 words
NIV: "God-breathed" 1 word

It's better to use a range of versions rather than put all your eggs in one basket. The issue is certainly not as clear cut as you think.  What do you think the word "charger" means? (Mk 6:25 KJV)

Quote from: Maxximilian
A better question is, why do you insist on relying on Bible versions that have been disparaged as poor translations of the original Bible languages? These mendaciously render יְהוָ֑ה as "LORD" when the Hebrew word for "Lord" is אדני – "Adonai".
This is explained in the NIV Preface. (The KJV also uses LORD for הוָ֑ה )

Quote from: NIV_preface
In regard to the divine name YHWH, commonly referred to as the Tetragrammaton, the translators adopted the device used in most English versions of rendering that name as “LORD” in capital letters to distinguish it from Adonai, another Hebrew word rendered “Lord” for which small letters are used. Wherever the two names stand together in the Old Testament as a compound name of God, they are rendered “Sovereign LORD.”


Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 21, 2013, 10:54:48 pm
The King James version is the only version translated word for word and not twisted.

I saw this quoted by Lapwing and wanted to address it. The KJV actually is a very literally correct translation, which is good. But, the NASB is actually more accurate that the KJV. The KJV Vs. NASB debate primarily comes down to:

NASB: More literally correct, uses Alexandrian manuscripts.
KJV: Less literally correct, uses Byzantine manuscripts.

You'll find that the NASB and KJV are very similar, except the NASB is a bit more readable for a modern person (it doesn't use the older style of English). I think both are good bibles, but I find the NASB preferable as it's more accurate in general than the KJV.

You may want to research this yourself, though, to see.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 21, 2013, 11:06:04 pm
The King James version is the only version translated word for word and not twisted.

I saw this quoted by Lapwing and wanted to address it. The KJV actually is a very literally correct translation, which is good. But, the NASB is actually more accurate that the KJV. The KJV Vs. NASB debate primarily comes down to:

NASB: More literally correct, uses Alexandrian manuscripts.
KJV: Less literally correct, uses Byzantine manuscripts.

You'll find that the NASB and KJV are very similar, except the NASB is a bit more readable for a modern person (it doesn't use the older style of English). I think both are good bibles, but I find the NASB preferable as it's more accurate in general than the KJV.

You may want to research this yourself, though, to see.

IDK, I can read the KJV very well, so its not up to me to compare them.

However I will warn what was taught to me from a 14 yr old kid, when I thought my NIV was all that and then some with its footnotes.

He showed me places where scripture was altered by one word and it completely changed the whole meaning of the message.

I also was taught that the KJV is a complete translation and zero messages are altered.
English is my only language so I can only assume that is true.

-------------
So theopneustos (1 word) in 2 Tim 3:16
KJV: "given by inspiration of God" 5 words
NIV: "God-breathed" 1 word

two completely different translations.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 21, 2013, 11:11:38 pm

Quote from: NIV_preface
In regard to the divine name YHWH, commonly referred to as the Tetragrammaton, the translators adopted the device used in most English versions of rendering that name as “LORD” in capital letters to distinguish it from Adonai, another Hebrew word rendered “Lord” for which small letters are used. Wherever the two names stand together in the Old Testament as a compound name of God, they are rendered “Sovereign LORD.”

Thank you for that non-explanation. It's especially vacuous given that, the world over, God's name appears in a multitude of Bible editions. African, Asian, American and Pacific-island language versions of the Scriptures use the name Jehovah liberally, so that readers can clearly see the difference between the true God and the false ones. The name has appeared, too, in versions in European languages.

Here's how it's rendered in many other languages -
In light of these salient facts, the NIV's choice to obscure God's personal name makes it that just more repugnant.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 22, 2013, 03:40:32 am
I'm not sure what giving the transliteration of Jehovah into different languages proves or is meant to prove.
The NIV preface tells you that whenever יְהוָ֞ה is encountered it is rendered as LORD. The pronunciation (and so transliteration spelling) of the tetragrammaton is not known.

So let's take a verse like Ex 4:2 which follows closely after Ex 3:14
See http://biblehub.com/exodus/4-2.htm (http://biblehub.com/exodus/4-2.htm)
The NIV, NLT, ESV, NASB, KJV (+2000 and US KJV), Holman, ISV, NET, God's Word, ERV and Webster's
all render it as LORD.
ASV, Darby, WEB and YLT render it as Yahweh or Jehovah.
So I fail to understand why you are singling out the NIV for this criticism.
Surely one should think that each version has its good and bad points but they are all of a good standard - certainly good enough to follow Christ as a disciple.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 22, 2013, 06:09:40 am
Not so Biep. The principles of the law are everlasting, just as Jesus said, he came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it.
That is correct, but the rules as given were not the perfect version of the Law.  It was watered down because of the hardness of the hearts of the Jews (Matthew 19:8).  Likewise, revenge was not totally forbidden, but limited not to exceed the damage done.  Jesus gives the perfect version of the Law - the one He came to fulfil.
Quote
The law of love summed up the whole law because love was the basis of it. (Matt 22:37-40)
Indeed.  And perfect love implies zero revenge.
Quote
The law demonstrated the principle of equivalency as a means to balance the scales of justice....why do we think that justice is symbolized by scales?
Because the pagan Romans invented that idea.  What language, do you think, gave us the word 'equity'?

Quote
Can I ask, who is feeding you Biep? Do you have a global brotherhood that believes the same as you do?
The Bible is, through the Holy Spirit and secondarily through many sisters and brothers God gave me.  I try to be a faithful slave to them as they are to me, as God commanded us.  After all, only together we can understand the fullness of God's amazing love (Ephesians 3:18)
The parable of the faithful slave is just that - a parable.  Parables apply generically.  Each of us must be a wise virgin, each of us a field with good earth, each of us wheat, not tare, each of us the merchant who gladly fives up everything for the pearl.
Defanging the parable of the faithful slave would be as wrong as declaring that some specific person or group were the merchant.

As I have written before, I am not a member of any church, but all over the world one finds sincere Bible students which the Holy Spirit indicates as siblings and who are willing to research, to retract wrong beliefs and adopt new ones when the Word convinces them of the truth.

Quote
You really think that could be done the world over under persecution and opposition by mere men?
No, I am afraid it goes beyond 'mere men'.

Quote
Just look at the fractured state of Christendom to answer that question.
Sorry, but 'Christendom' is nothing but a grab bag of good, bad and ugly.  It is no useful category, only useful for guilt by association.  As I said, look at e.g. the Mennonites.  Is their blazon tainted because some post-modern church preaches that God is only a nice feeling in our hearts?
If 'Christendom' includes all those who believe in the truth of the NT, then it includes the JW.  If it refers to Trinitarians - would you claim that Arians are not divided?

Quote
We operate as a well oiled machine delivering the good news to a globally unreceptive audience, just as Jesus said we should. (Matt 24:36-39)
But - I just looked around a bit on the Internet - not a very effective one, it seems.  I think I saw that Charismatic churches are growing faster with less effort.

Quote
When disaster strikes, Jehovah's people are often first on the scene, supporting their brothers, rebuilding their homes and lives and offering real support, both material and spiritual.
Matthew 5:46.  It is the next step that would prove read Christian love.

Quote from: Biep
He had to be infinite to pay the price.
Quote
Who said?
The Law for theft, which Jesus came to fulfil, and verses such as Matthew 16:25 that show that creation as a whole is not sufficient price.

Where does it say Jesus had to pay the life of Adam?

Quote
Do you not understand the basis of the ransom Biep? It is a fundamental teaching in Christianity, yet how many people really understand how it works?
I like to think I do.  The ransom for the life of a criminal equals whatever the other party requests (e.g. Exodus 21:30).  But Jesus was, of course, a Ransom in several ways.

Quote
It's like the kingdom....what is it?
Those who are reborn know, those who aren't will never know until it is too late.

Quote from: Biep
He had to be God to free from the Law (Romans 7:3).  The covenant was with God, so God had to die to free us from it.  This too I have explained in detail before.
If Jesus weren't God, the old covenants would still be in full force and condemn us, as Colossians 2:14 would have been false.
Quote
Again, who said?
See the verse reference I gave (and its context).  See also this post (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/trinity/the-trinity-is-it-biblical-6021376.msg1275158362.html#msg1275158362).

Quote
It was God who freed his people from the "curse" of the law by sending his son to pay the ransom for them.
Which would make Him a moral monster.  He could have paid the price Himself, yet abused the love of a (finite, no less) innocent third person.  Morally, that would put Jesus way above the Father.
It would be like accepting that ones child jumps in front of one to receive a blow my enemy wants to deal me - only then if I were infinitely powerful, and my son weren't.

Quote
Faithless rebels will keep you deceived.
Until one puts God and His Word above any other authority, and uses it to test everything and only keep the good.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 22, 2013, 10:37:26 am
I'm not sure what giving the transliteration of Jehovah into different languages proves or is meant to prove.
It shows how other Bible editors are more honest than those of the NIV and all others who fraudulently render יְהוָ֞ה as "LORD" instead of "Jehovah."


Quote
The pronunciation (and so transliteration spelling) of the tetragrammaton is not known.
The same can be argued for all the names we read in the Bible. Do you, for instance, know how Jesus' family and friends addressed him in day-to-day conversation while he was growing up in Nazareth? (It certainly wasn't "Jesus".)


Quote
they are all of a good standard
Don't be so jejune. False religion is big business. This is certainly ample motive for Bible editors to contort the Bible's original text.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 22, 2013, 10:40:36 am
I am not a member of any church

"24 And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near." - Hebrews 10:24,25




"If any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. 2 The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3 not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 4 a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; 5 (if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God’s congregation?) 6 not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil. 7 Moreover, he should also have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the Devil." - 2 Timothy 3:1-7




"8 Ministerial servants should likewise be serious, not double-tongued, not giving themselves to a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, 9 holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience.


10 Also, let these be tested as to fitness first, then let them serve as ministers, as they are free from accusation. 12 Let ministerial servants be husbands of one wife, presiding in a fine manner over children and their own households. 13 For the men who minister in a fine manner are acquiring for themselves a fine standing and great freeness of speech in the faith in connection with Christ Jesus." - 1 Timothy 3:8-10, 12,13




"11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”" - 1 Corinthians 5:11-13




A central body composed of the Apostles and Elders established doctrine for the rest of the Christians to follow - Acts 15






From all of the above, any sincere, honest-hearted one can see that -


1. The first century Christians were **organized** into congregations where individuals shared together in their worship. Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamon, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea are the names of just a few mentioned in the Bible.


2. **A system** existed to appoint those who would take the lead in the congregation.


3. **A system** was also in place to appoint those who would assist those taking the lead in the congregation.


4. **A system** was in place to discipline - even expel from the congregation - those who unrepentantly practiced serious sin.


What makes you think this is no longer true today?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 22, 2013, 11:50:51 am
Quote from: Maximilian
It shows how other Bible editors ...
What other Bibles? It's perfectly possible to have a transliteration of "Jehovah" without there being a Bible version in that language that uses it. Unless your intention is just to waste my time, and possibly other peoples' time as well, do not respond on this until you can cite the Bible versions in these languages that use these transliterations, with evidence i.e. websites where the Bible versions can be read online.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 22, 2013, 12:57:35 pm
Quote from: Maximilian
It shows how other Bible editors ...
What other Bibles? It's perfectly possible to have a transliteration of "Jehovah" without there being a Bible version in that language that uses it. Unless your intention is just to waste my time, and possibly other peoples' time as well, do not respond on this until you can cite the Bible versions in these languages that use these transliterations, with evidence i.e. websites where the Bible versions can be read online.


Happily! What other languages do you speak?


Btw, is your Google broken?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 22, 2013, 01:20:37 pm
You're the one who is trying to establish a point. It's up to you to prove it. Too much like hard work for you?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 22, 2013, 02:04:28 pm
Quote
"Here is why we did not: You are right that Jehovah is a distinctive name for God and ideally we should have used it. But we put 2 1/4 million dollars into this translation and a sure way of throwing that down the drain is to translate, for example, Psalm 23 as, 'Yahweh is my shepherd.' Immediately, we would have translated for nothing. Nobody would have used it. Oh, maybe you and a handful [of] others. But a Christian has to be also wise and practical. We are the victims of 350 years of the King James tradition. It is far better to get two million to read it-that is how many have bought it to date-and to follow the King James, than to have two thousand buy it and have the correct translation of Yahweh. . . . It was a hard decision, and many of our translators agree with you."
-  Edwin H. Palmer, Th.D., Executive Secretary for the NIV's committee

Like I've said, there's big money in false religion ...
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 22, 2013, 02:07:10 pm
You're the one who is trying to establish a point. It's up to you to prove it. Too much like hard work for you?


Happily! What languages do you speak?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 22, 2013, 02:49:31 pm
You've provided the transliterations all I would need to do would be to key on them.
Of course you could provide the biblical references where the transliterated versions of "Jehovah" appear so what's stopping you?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 22, 2013, 04:08:42 pm
You've provided the transliterations all I would need to do would be to key on them.
Of course you could provide the biblical references where the transliterated versions of "Jehovah" appear so what's stopping you?



שמות 6:3 Hebrew OT: BHS (Consonants & Vowels)
................................................. ...............................
וָאֵרָא אֶל־אַבְרָהָם אֶל־יִצְחָק וְאֶל־יַעֲקֹב בְּאֵל שַׁדָּי וּשְׁמִי יְהוָה לֹא נֹודַעְתִּי לָהֶם׃
................................................. ...............................
שמות 6:3 Hebrew OT: BHS (Consonants Only)
................................................. ...............................
וארא אל־אברהם אל־יצחק ואל־יעקב באל שדי ושמי יהוה לא נודעתי להם׃
................................................. ...............................
שמות 6:3 Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad Codex
................................................. ...............................
וָאֵרָ֗א אֶל־אַבְרָהָ֛ם אֶל־יִצְחָ֥ק וְאֶֽל־יַעֲקֹ֖ב בְּאֵ֣ל שַׁדָּ֑י וּשְׁמִ֣י יְהוָ֔ה לֹ֥א נֹודַ֖עְתִּי לָהֶֽם׃
................................................. ...............................
שמות 6:3 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
................................................. ...............................
וארא אל־אברהם אל־יצחק ואל־יעקב באל שדי ושמי יהוה לא נודעתי להם׃
................................................. ...............................
שמות 6:3 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants & Vowels)
................................................. ...............................
וָאֵרָא אֶל־אַבְרָהָם אֶל־יִצְחָק וְאֶל־יַעֲקֹב בְּאֵל שַׁדָּי וּשְׁמִי יְהוָה לֹא נֹודַעְתִּי לָהֶם׃
................................................. ...............................
שמות 6:3 Hebrew OT: Aleppo Codex
................................................. ...............................
ג וארא אל אברהם אל יצחק ואל יעקב--באל שדי ושמי יהוה לא נודעתי להם
................................................. ...............................
שמות 6:3 Hebrew Bible
................................................. ...............................
וארא אל אברהם אל יצחק ואל יעקב באל שדי ושמי יהוה לא נודעתי להם׃


King James Bible
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.


American King James Version
And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.


American Standard Version
and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; but by my name Jehovah I was not known to them.


Darby Bible Translation
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as the Almighty ùGod; but by my name Jehovah I was not made known to them.


English Revised Version
and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH I was not known to them.


Webster's Bible Translation
And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.


Young's Literal Translation
and I appear unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; as to My name Jehovah, I have not been known to them;


Exode 6:3 French: Darby
................................................. ...............................
Je suis apparu à Abraham, à Isaac, et à Jacob, comme le *Dieu Tout-puissant; mais je n'ai pas été connu d'eux par mon nom d'Éternel (Jéhovah).


2 Mose 6:3 German: Elberfelder (1871)
................................................. ...............................
Und ich bin Abraham, Isaak und Jakob erschienen als Gott, (El) der Allmächtige; aber mit meinem Namen Jehova habe ich mich ihnen nicht kundgegeben.


2 Mózes 6:3 Hungarian: Karoli
................................................. ...............................
Ábrahámnak, Izsáknak és Jákóbnak úgy jelentem meg mint mindenható Isten, de az én Jehova nevemen nem voltam elõttük ismeretes.


Exodus 6:3 Maori
................................................. ...............................
I oku putanga ia ki a Aperahama, ki a Ihaka, ki a Hakopa, ko te Atua Kaha Rawa ahau, otiia kihai ratou i mohio ki ahau, ko IHOWA toku ingoa.


Polish: Biblia Gdanska
................................................. ...............................
Którym się ukazał Abrahamowi, Izaakowi i Jakóbowi w tem imieniu, żem Bóg Wszechmogący; ale w imieniu mojem, Jehowa, nie jestem poznany od nich.




Éxodo 6:3 Portugese Bible
................................................. ...............................
Apareci a Abraão, a Isaque e a Jacó, como o Deus Todo-Poderoso; mas pelo meu nome Jeová, não lhes fui conhecido.


Éxodo 6:3 Spanish: Reina Valera (1909)
................................................. ...............................
Y aparecí á Abraham, á Isaac y á Jacob bajo el nombre de Dios Omnipotente, mas en mi nombre JEHOVA no me notifiqué á ellos.


Éxodo 6:3 Spanish: Modern
................................................. ...............................
Yo me aparecí a Abraham, a Isaac y a Jacob como Dios Todopoderoso; pero con mi nombre Jehovah no me di a conocer a ellos.




Exodus 6:3 Tagalog: Ang Dating Biblia (1905)
................................................. ...............................
At ako'y napakita kay Abraham, kay Isaac, at kay Jacob na Dios na Makapangyarihan sa lahat; nguni't sa pamamagitan ng aking pangalang Jehova, noon ay hindi ako napakilala sa kanila.


出埃及記 6:3
Chinese Union Version Modern Punctuation (Traditional) (CUVMPT)
3 我從前向亞伯拉罕、以撒、雅各顯現為全能的神,至於我名耶和華,他們未曾知道。


Smith & Van Dyke, 1865
Exodus 6:3
3 وانا ظهرت لابراهيم واسحق ويعقوب باني الاله القادر على كل شيء. واما باسمي يهوه فلم أعرف عندهم.


Korean Bible
Exodus 6:3
3내가 아브라함과 이삭과 야곱에게 전능의 하나님으로 나타났으나 나의 이름을 여호와로는 그들에게 알리지 아니하였고




Starting to get the idea? :)

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 22, 2013, 07:38:10 pm
Not so Biep. The principles of the law are everlasting, just as Jesus said, he came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it.
That is correct, but the rules as given were not the perfect version of the Law.  It was watered down because of the hardness of the hearts of the Jews (Matthew 19:8).

Reading that verse in context, I do believe that Jesus was just singling out the law on marriage and divorce in response to the question asked by the Pharisees. He was not speaking about the law generally. There was nothing imperfect about God's law...that was the whole point of giving a perfect law to imperfect people. It was a reminder to all of God's people that they could never keep it....that Messiah's sacrifice was the only thing that would gain God's forgiveness and fulfill the law.

Quote
Likewise, revenge was not totally forbidden, but limited not to exceed the damage done.  Jesus gives the perfect version of the Law - the one He came to fulfil.
The law was never imperfect...it was the oral traditions of the Pharisees that were in error. This is what Jesus was making distinctions with; the erroneous traditions had replaced the written law and had been taught to the people as God's word.

Quote
Quote
The law of love summed up the whole law because love was the basis of it. (Matt 22:37-40)
Indeed.  And perfect love implies zero revenge.
Is God's love imperfect?

"Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah. (Rom 12:17-19, Deut 32:35)

"For we know him that said: “Vengeance is mine; I will recompense”; and again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God" (Heb 10:30, 31)
Quote
Quote
The law demonstrated the principle of equivalency as a means to balance the scales of justice....why do we think that justice is symbolized by scales?
Because the pagan Romans invented that idea.  What language, do you think, gave us the word 'equity'?

The language might have provide the word but certainly not the concept.  (Ex 21:23, 24; Deut 19:18-21; Lev 24:19, 20)

Quote
Quote
Can I ask, who is feeding you Biep? Do you have a global brotherhood that believes the same as you do?
The Bible is, through the Holy Spirit and secondarily through many sisters and brothers God gave me.  I try to be a faithful slave to them as they are to me, as God commanded us.  After all, only together we can understand the fullness of God's amazing love (Ephesians 3:18)
Now, if all the Christians in the world were all of one belief and one mind and thought on the interpretation of scripture, you might have grounds for that statement to be true. We both know that is not the case. True Christians are united in every way...the Christ cannot exist divided. (1 Cor 1:10-13) Those who were deviating by idolizing men were chastised. Look at all the "brands" of Christianity and see that all these denominations follow the teachings of a man who said..."I think". There is no room to say "I think".

Quote
The parable of the faithful slave is just that - a parable.  Parables apply generically.  Each of us must be a wise virgin, each of us a field with good earth, each of us wheat, not tare, each of us the merchant who gladly fives up everything for the pearl.
Defanging the parable of the faithful slave would be as wrong as declaring that some specific person or group were the merchant.
Since all the parables apply to reality, I beg to differ. The meaning of the parables is not brushed off by saying that they were just illustrations....they had real meaning to real people or else why were they given?

Quote
As I have written before, I am not a member of any church, but all over the world one finds sincere Bible students which the Holy Spirit indicates as siblings and who are willing to research, to retract wrong beliefs and adopt new ones when the Word convinces them of the truth.

And the very fact that you have no global brotherhood with whom you meet and agree in teaching and activity, makes you different from the first Christians, who had to leave their various former religious beliefs behind and come into the Christian congregation. There was only one Christianity and these were "fed" from only one source.  No one was permitted to introduce their own ideas...if they did, they were shunned. (2 John 8-11) Anyone not living up to the teachings of the Christ was expelled. (1 Cor 5:9-13) What would happen today if that rule was imposed in the churches? How many would still be sitting there in the pews? How many are guilty of breaking God's marriage and divorce laws, alone? (Matt 5:32) Adultery was punishable by death.

Apostasy was foretold and that is exactly what took over with the birth of Catholicism. Apostasy weakened the church and made it receptive to the false teachings of pagan Roman beliefs which were given a "Christianized" meaning. People have watered down God's laws to suit themselves. They will pay for that.

Quote
Quote
You really think that could be done the world over under persecution and opposition by mere men?
No, I am afraid it goes beyond 'mere men'.
That is why you don't see it as an activity of most churches. It is an operation of God's spirit and it wasn't to be just a local activity...it was to be preached as one message of salvation to "the entire inhabited earth". (Matt 24:14)

Quote
Sorry, but 'Christendom' is nothing but a grab bag of good, bad and ugly.  It is no useful category, only useful for guilt by association.  As I said, look at e.g. the Mennonites.  Is their blazon tainted because some post-modern church preaches that God is only a nice feeling in our hearts?
If 'Christendom' includes all those who believe in the truth of the NT, then it includes the JW.  If it refers to Trinitarians - would you claim that Arians are not divided?

'Christendom' is the product of the foretold apostasy. And you are right...it is guilt by association. It is God himself who tells his people to "get out of her". (Rev 18:4, 5)

Quote
But - I just looked around a bit on the Internet - not a very effective one, it seems.  I think I saw that Charismatic churches are growing faster with less effort.
It's not about the numbers Biep. "Few" are on the road to life, remember? (Matt 7:13, 14) And they were to be hated and persecuted. (Please Google persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses)

Jesus said to look at the "fruits" of his disciples. They would have "love among themselves" and they would be global preachers. This is not just foreign missionary work; it is preaching to all without prejudice. To whom did Jesus and his apostles preach and how? (Matt 10:11-15; Acts 20:20) It was those who already considered themselves to be God's people. He preached in his own home territory to his own people. How many today do that?

Quote
Quote
When disaster strikes, Jehovah's people are often first on the scene, supporting their brothers, rebuilding their homes and lives and offering real support, both material and spiritual.
Matthew 5:46.  It is the next step that would prove read Christian love.
Yes, and that is why we also go to help others when our brothers' needs are met. (Gal 6:9, 10)

Quote from: Biep
He had to be infinite to pay the price.
Who said?

Quote
The Law for theft, which Jesus came to fulfil, and verses such as Matthew 16:25 that show that creation as a whole is not sufficient price.

Where does it say Jesus had to pay the life of Adam?

"It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Cor 15:45; Gen 2:7)

Jesus is called "the last Adam" because he paid the price of Adam's sin with his own perfect life.

Quote
Quote
Do you not understand the basis of the ransom Biep? It is a fundamental teaching in Christianity, yet how many people really understand how it works?
I like to think I do.  The ransom for the life of a criminal equals whatever the other party requests (e.g. Exodus 21:30).  But Jesus was, of course, a Ransom in several ways.
He paid a price that no other human could. (Psalm 49:7, 8.)

Quote
Quote
It's like the kingdom....what is it?
Those who are reborn know, those who aren't will never know until it is too late.

LOL...nice dodge.  :D Can you be more specific? Surely it is not a difficult question....?

Quote from: Biep
He had to be God to free from the Law (Romans 7:3).  The covenant was with God, so God had to die to free us from it.  This too I have explained in detail before.
If Jesus weren't God, the old covenants would still be in full force and condemn us, as Colossians 2:14 would have been false.

How so? Once Christ had fulfilled the law, it was no longer necessary. The basis for everlasting forgiveness had been made....one sacrifice for all time; no need for the blood of animals any longer.

Quote
Quote
It was God who freed his people from the "curse" of the law by sending his son to pay the ransom for them.

Which would make Him a moral monster.  He could have paid the price Himself, yet abused the love of a (finite, no less) innocent third person.  Morally, that would put Jesus way above the Father.

What ?? We have a volunteer here who loved mankind because he was instrumental in their formation. (Prov 8:22, 30) You are devaluing the love of the Christ as a reflection of his Father's love. (John 3:16)

Quote
It would be like accepting that ones child jumps in front of one to receive a blow my enemy wants to deal me - only then if I were infinitely powerful, and my son weren't.

Do you have Jehovah's word for that? That is pure human reasoning gone awry.

Quote
Quote
Faithless rebels will keep you deceived.
Until one puts God and His Word above any other authority, and uses it to test everything and only keep the good.
Exactly...but you have to know how many people are fooled into believing that they are on the right road, when in actual fact, they are traveling with the "many" on the road to destruction.

The criteria is there in the scriptures for all to see. Who are living up to it today? Not the "many" and not the ones who just call themselves "Christians". (Matt 7:21-23)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 22, 2013, 09:08:46 pm

Jesus said to look at the "fruits" of his disciples. They would have "love among themselves"


Just wanted to add:



“They refuse any form of violence and without rebelling put up with the many trials inflicted on them because of their beliefs . . . How different the world would be if we all woke up one morning firmly decided not to take up arms again, whatever the cost or the reason, just like Jehovah’s Witnesses!” - “Andare Alle Genti”



“I have come to the conclusion that if Jehovah’s Witnesses were the only ones living on the earth, wars would cease to exist, and the only duties of the policemen would be to control traffic and to issue passports.” - “Gyűrű”



“Suffice it to say that if all the world lived by the creed of the Jehovah Witnesses there would be an end of bloodshed and hatred, and love would reign as king!”- “The Sacramento Union”



“The work of Jehovah’s Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practised by Jesus and his disciples . . . All are brothers.” - “The Encyclopedia Canadiana”



The Encyclopedia of Early Christianity states: “The early church saw itself as one new humanity in which previously hostile groups, Jews and Gentiles, could live together in one body of peace.” Jehovah’s Witnesses also are a peace-loving international brotherhood—truly a new world society. (Ephesians 2:11-18; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 3:13) When the chief security officer of the Pretoria Show Grounds in South Africa saw how Witnesses of all races met there peaceably as convention delegates, he said: “Everyone was and is courteous, people speaking nicely to one another, the attitude displayed the past few days—it all testifies to the calibre of the members of your society, and that all live together like one happy family.” - “They Keep On Walking in the Truth”

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 22, 2013, 09:19:06 pm
5 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them.

The Beatitudes

He said:


3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and Light

13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Murder

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Adultery

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce

31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths

33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Eye for Eye

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Be a great world if we could all do the above.  :(

Father forgive me, I am a sinner.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 22, 2013, 10:35:28 pm

Be a great world if we could all do the above.

Snooch, Jehovah's Witnesses already live like that. It is our choice to obey the commands of our God, Jehovah through the teachings of his Christ. It doesn't mean that we do it perfectly yet...no man does.  :(

Quote
Father forgive me, I am a sinner.

Yes indeed.   :-[

If we sin because of an error in judgment or a bad decision, which as imperfect humans we do often, then we can ask forgiveness on the basis of Jesus' sacrifice. We cannot, however use our imperfection as an excuse not to try hard every day to be obedient. That would be taking Jesus' priceless gift and making a mockery of it. We can never presume on that forgiveness, nor can we ever take it for granted. Once we accept Jesus as our savior, we are under obligation to obey him. (Heb 10:26, 27)  :-\





Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 22, 2013, 10:43:12 pm

Be a great world if we could all do the above.

Snooch, Jehovah's Witnesses already live like that. It is our choice to obey the commands of our God, Jehovah through the teachings of his Christ. It doesn't mean that we do it perfectly yet...no man does.  :(

Quote
Father forgive me, I am a sinner.

Yes indeed.   :-[

If we sin because of an error in judgment or a bad decision, which as imperfect humans we do often, then we can ask forgiveness on the basis of Jesus' sacrifice. We cannot, however use our imperfection as an excuse not to try hard every day to be obedient. That would be taking Jesus' priceless gift and making a mockery of it. We can never presume on that forgiveness, nor can we ever take it for granted. Once we accept Jesus as our savior, we are under obligation to obey him. (Heb 10:26, 27)  :-\

I agree and have seen many followers of Christ who do such things and I am humbled and amazed at the transformation that God has done in their lives.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 22, 2013, 10:43:56 pm
5 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them.

The Beatitudes

He said:


3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and Light

13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Murder

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Adultery

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce

31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths

33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Eye for Eye

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Be a great world if we could all do the above.  :(

Father forgive me, I am a sinner.

applaud
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 23, 2013, 03:33:33 am
Maxximiliann,
Quote
Starting to get the idea?
I see that you've moved the goalposts from talking about how the tetragrammaton is rendered throughout each Bible version to just one verse and we've moved from 38 languages to 11 - bit of a climb down eh!

Recall that this was prompted by your:
Quote
A better question is, why do you insist on relying on Bible versions that have been disparaged as poor translations of the original Bible languages? These mendaciously render יְהוָ֑ה as "LORD" when the Hebrew word for "Lord" is אדני – "Adonai".
Of course, other versions such as the KJV have been well and truly disparaged as well. Basing your argument on just one verse is extremely shallow - and its not a verse chosen at random either is it. The KJV renders the tetragrammaton as Jehovah only 7 times out of 6218 occurrences! It's highly likely that those few other non English versions were simply following the KJV's lead. In this verse the criterion used by the KJV translators was that "YHWH is used as God’s personal name." from http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/jehovah.asp.

Whether it was correct to treat this verse differently in this way is debatable.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 23, 2013, 05:08:56 am


If we sin because of an error in judgment or a bad decision, which as imperfect humans we do often, then we can ask forgiveness on the basis of Jesus' sacrifice. We cannot, however use our imperfection as an excuse not to try hard every day to be obedient. That would be taking Jesus' priceless gift and making a mockery of it. We can never presume on that forgiveness, nor can we ever take it for granted. Once we accept Jesus as our savior, we are under obligation to obey him. (Heb 10:26, 27)  :-\

I agree and have seen many followers of Christ who do such things and I am humbled and amazed at the transformation that God has done in their lives.

And in yours. But it's an ongoing, progressive learning curve. Like riding a bike...if you stop the forward momentum, you fall over  :P
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 23, 2013, 05:59:14 am


If we sin because of an error in judgment or a bad decision, which as imperfect humans we do often, then we can ask forgiveness on the basis of Jesus' sacrifice. We cannot, however use our imperfection as an excuse not to try hard every day to be obedient. That would be taking Jesus' priceless gift and making a mockery of it. We can never presume on that forgiveness, nor can we ever take it for granted. Once we accept Jesus as our savior, we are under obligation to obey him. (Heb 10:26, 27)  :-\

I agree and have seen many followers of Christ who do such things and I am humbled and amazed at the transformation that God has done in their lives.

And in yours. But it's an ongoing, progressive learning curve. Like riding a bike...if you stop the forward momentum, you fall over  :P

not for me, I am in the coasting downhill stage.

j/k I wish :(

(http://i.imgur.com/H3kDsXA.png)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 23, 2013, 06:08:46 am
I've been a bit busy lately. Has anyone engaged my exegesis? if so can you tell me the post number? Please and thanks.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 23, 2013, 06:20:52 am
@ Asking_A_Question

If you're bored, why not engage all the scripture I posted where Jesus talked to God as a third person and explain why he is doing that if he is God?

I posted them over, will add many more if you like.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
It doesn't say his Father does it?
So, this concludes The Father=God
Jesus said Father when he was praying to him and,
was referring to God, who is also our Father as well.
Which is exactly what scripture teaches.

Father and God are not two different being, it is the same being.

and Jesus Is Gods son
No where does Jesus ever claim to be God nor does the Bible assert that The Father and God are two separate beings.

Matthew 2436
But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
So if the Father is God and Jesus is also God,
How come Jesus says only The Father knows?
So, basically, Jesus is lying then?
If the Father The Holy Spirit and Jesus are all three separate beings, and all God,
then they should all know the hour and day, but Jesus asserts only God knows.

Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if you be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but yours, be done
So who is he talking to, himself?

And here he explains where he will be sitting, next to God
How can he be sitting next to God is he is God?

Plus, what happened to The Father?

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 23, 2013, 06:23:47 am
You don't even understand what you are trying to argue against tbh. People have pointed this out and tried to help from what I've seen from my browsing.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 23, 2013, 06:35:27 am
You don't even understand what you are trying to argue against tbh. People have pointed this out and tried to help from what I've seen from my browsing.

No.

this thread is concluding that there are four beings
father, son, holy ghost and that all three are God.

No one has even tried to debate against anything I said.
those scriptures I just posted do not follow the conclusion that Jesus is God and that The Father and God are two separate beings.

My conclusions from what the Bible tells us is:
Father(God) Jesus(Gods Son) Holy Ghost(Gift from God)   

Not one person has pointed anything out to me that the scriptures I quote do not conclude what I am suggesting.
So I have no idea why you are saying they have.
I have asked over and over for someone to engage those scriptures.
None yet, but your saying they have?
SMH
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 23, 2013, 07:39:13 am

I see that you've moved the goalposts from talking about how the tetragrammaton is rendered throughout each Bible version to just one verse and we've moved from 38 languages to 11 - bit of a climb down eh!
Is your Google still broken? You really ought to get that looked into. Then you can do your own homework :)


Quote
The KJV renders the tetragrammaton as Jehovah only 7 times out of 6218 occurrences!
Which is why it's attempts to re-write the Bible are so very repugnant. To those who love truth, that is. Why do you insist on relying on it?


Quote
It's highly likely that those few other non English versions were simply following the KJV's lead.
Once you get your Google fixed you can research this. Then you can draw a conclusion based on the facts instead of misguided speculation.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 23, 2013, 07:59:01 am
No one has even tried to debate against anything I said.


Because they can't. Their whole "three distinct persons, one being" argument is twaddle. Especially since the Bible does not teach the existence of their fairy-tale "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit." To engage the Scripture you've highlighted is to risk recognizing they've been wrong all along and that by willfully rendering idolatrous worship to these false gods they've been insulting their Creator, The Father, Jehovah God and his Son, Christ Jesus.


In effect, you're asking them to realize they're the anti-Christ the Scriptures warned of. They never will because they're not humble enough to recognize their mistakes, repent from their sin and make peace with Jehovah God and Christ. In this way, they've sealed their own fate - everlasting death at Armageddon.







Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Stephen on July 23, 2013, 08:03:27 am
Whom then will in fact receive the inheritance of the kingdom, Max?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 23, 2013, 08:07:12 am
They never will because they're not humble enough to recognize their mistakes, repent from their sin and make peace with Jehovah God and Christ.

Very nice.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 23, 2013, 08:31:54 am
No one has even tried to debate against anything I said.


Because they can't. Their whole "three distinct persons, one being" argument is twaddle. Especially since the Bible does not teach the existence of their fairy-tale "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit." To engage the Scripture you've highlighted is to risk recognizing they've been wrong all along and that by willfully rendering idolatrous worship to these false gods they've been insulting their Creator, The Father, Jehovah God and his Son, Christ Jesus.


In effect, you're asking them to realize they're the anti-Christ the Scriptures warned of. They never will because they're not humble enough to recognize their mistakes, repent from their sin and make peace with Jehovah God and Christ. In this way, they've sealed their own fate - everlasting death at Armageddon.

Well, I cant argue with that, God said not to put no Gods before him and in fact anyone that does, is breaking one of God commandments.

I just assumed I was being ignored as I am most of the time on here because no one can understand me.

To be frank, I feel like I am loosing my mind.
In real life, no one likes me either.

I dont push God onto them though, what I do on line is strictly online.
I dont believe in Bible thumping those not interested in discussing it.
Jesus even warns of doing that.

I just figure out how asking a question told me that he been browsing his own thread and claims people have refuted my points, yet no one has.
One person did post scripture and when i refuted it, it was the last I heard.

Thanks for sticking up for me :)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 23, 2013, 09:00:32 am
Quote from: Maxximillian
Then you can do your own homework
You're the one who is trying to establish that these versions are "poor translations" so it's you that have homework to do. Initially you attacked the NIV now you're attacking the KJV. Make your mind up.

Quote
In effect, you're asking them to realize they're the anti-Christ the Scriptures warned of. They never will because they're not humble enough to recognize their mistakes, repent from their sin and make peace with Jehovah God and Christ. In this way, they've sealed their own fate - everlasting death at Armageddon.
compare with
always being prepared to make a defence to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 1 Pet 3:15 ESV
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 23, 2013, 09:55:38 am
Whom then will in fact receive the inheritance of the kingdom, Max?
All those that have been sealed by means of Jehovah God's holy spirit for this privilege. Romans 8:4,16,17 explicates, "“All who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”"
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 23, 2013, 10:03:40 am
You're the one who is trying to establish that these versions are "poor translations" so it's you that have homework to do. Initially you attacked the NIV now you're attacking the KJV. Make your mind up.
You yourself recognize that:
Quote
The KJV renders the tetragrammaton as Jehovah only 7 times out of 6218 occurrences!
What more do you need?

Quote
In effect, you're asking them to realize they're the anti-Christ the Scriptures warned of. They never will because they're not humble enough to recognize their mistakes, repent from their sin and make peace with Jehovah God and Christ. In this way, they've sealed their own fate - everlasting death at Armageddon.

compare with
always being prepared to make a defence to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 1 Pet 3:15 ESV


compare with
"“If God were ​YOUR​ Father, ​YOU​ would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth. Why is it ​YOU​ do not know what I am speaking? Because ​YOU​ cannot listen to my word. YOU​ are from ​YOUR​ father the Devil, and ​YOU​ wish to do the desires of ​YOUR​ father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. Because I, on the other hand, tell the truth, ​YOU​ do not believe me. Who of ​YOU​ convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it ​YOU​ do not believe me? He that is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why ​YOU​ do not listen, because ​YOU​ are not from God.”" - John 8:42-44
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 23, 2013, 10:05:44 am
No one has even tried to debate against anything I said.


Because they can't. Their whole "three distinct persons, one being" argument is twaddle. Especially since the Bible does not teach the existence of their fairy-tale "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit." To engage the Scripture you've highlighted is to risk recognizing they've been wrong all along and that by willfully rendering idolatrous worship to these false gods they've been insulting their Creator, The Father, Jehovah God and his Son, Christ Jesus.


In effect, you're asking them to realize they're the anti-Christ the Scriptures warned of. They never will because they're not humble enough to recognize their mistakes, repent from their sin and make peace with Jehovah God and Christ. In this way, they've sealed their own fate - everlasting death at Armageddon.

Well, I cant argue with that, God said not to put no Gods before him and in fact anyone that does, is breaking one of God commandments.

I just assumed I was being ignored as I am most of the time on here because no one can understand me.

To be frank, I feel like I am loosing my mind.
In real life, no one likes me either.

I dont push God onto them though, what I do on line is strictly online.
I dont believe in Bible thumping those not interested in discussing it.
Jesus even warns of doing that.

I just figure out how asking a question told me that he been browsing his own thread and claims people have refuted my points, yet no one has.
One person did post scripture and when i refuted it, it was the last I heard.

Thanks for sticking up for me :)


I always stick up for truth and those who speak it courageously :)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Stephen on July 23, 2013, 10:23:04 am
Whom then will in fact receive the inheritance of the kingdom, Max?
All those that have been sealed by means of Jehovah God's holy spirit for this privilege. Romans 8:4,16,17 explicates, "“All who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”"

Is this to say "Jehovah's witnesses?"  If so, those passages in Romans, or anywhere in the Bible, do not actually explicate that particular term, not unlike your arguments against the term "Trinity" appearing in the Bible (which I acknowledge is true).  Is there some justification then for this terminological concept that should so deem it set apart from the concept of "Trinity?"
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 23, 2013, 12:48:43 pm
Whom then will in fact receive the inheritance of the kingdom, Max?
All those that have been sealed by means of Jehovah God's holy spirit for this privilege. Romans 8:4,16,17 explicates, "“All who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”"

Is this to say "Jehovah's witnesses?"
Hebrews 11-12:1 identifies all of Jehovah God's sedulous worshipers as his witnesses. (Compare with Isaiah 43:10-12) Even Christ identifies himself as Jehovah's witness. (Revelation 3:14) With these facts in mind, of course, those who are to inherit the kingdom along with Christ are witnesses of Jehovah. Why wouldn't they be?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Stephen on July 23, 2013, 01:00:54 pm
Because my point is nowhere does the term "Jehovah's witness" appear in the Bible, yet you conclude to this term based upon the concept being taught in Scripture.  Why then is the term "Trinity" unallowable when it itself is concluded to on the very same grounds?

(Sorry for getting my threads mixed up, this should probably belong in a "trinity" thread, though too fargone now)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 23, 2013, 01:07:26 pm
I've been a bit busy lately. Has anyone engaged my exegesis? if so can you tell me the post number? Please and thanks.

?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 23, 2013, 01:14:17 pm
Because my point is nowhere does the term "Jehovah's witness" appear in the Bible, yet you conclude to this term based upon the concept being taught in Scripture.  Why then is the term "Trinity" unallowable when it itself is concluded to on the very same grounds?
Not sure if I understand this correctly, but are you implying that religious identities should be qualified in the Bible as with doctrines?



Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Stephen on July 23, 2013, 01:19:30 pm
Because my point is nowhere does the term "Jehovah's witness" appear in the Bible, yet you conclude to this term based upon the concept being taught in Scripture.  Why then is the term "Trinity" unallowable when it itself is concluded to on the very same grounds?
Not sure if I understand this correctly, but are you implying that religious identities should be qualified in the Bible as with doctrines?

That was not what I was implying, though I admit I've never really thought about it in any depth.

What I am getting at is Biblical concepts, not religious identities per se, need not necessarily be declared so explicitly in the Bible in order to possibly be valid, biblical concepts; i.e.: Sola Scriptura.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 23, 2013, 03:17:21 pm
What I am getting at is Biblical concepts, not religious identities per se, need not necessarily be declared so explicitly in the Bible in order to possibly be valid, biblical concepts; i.e.: Sola Scriptura.
From what I can see, I'm really not sure how well such a mindset holds-up. ie. the Bible seems unyielding with regards to belief and worship. To which I'd add, would have a major impact on Christian doctrines as a whole. That being said, while I'd agree that the word Trinity does not appear anywhere in the Bible, I'd also point-out that the Bible does not seem to support Trinitarian worship either. ie. true worship was not subject to a Trinitarian worship in the OT which was exclusively monotheistic in nature. And so for me, I find both the label and supporting evidence to be missing.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 23, 2013, 03:36:18 pm
I really wished I remembered these things better.

The apostolic faith church I used to attend, the pastor taught that Jesus said what the house of God shall be called and in Revelations the 7 seals represents the 7 churches that will all be judged.

I just woke up, and did a little digging and the best I can come up with is this verse:

Luke 19:46
And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

And that is what the name of their church was
"House of Prayer"

Now, his grandson also firmly believes that the only true faith is the,
Apostolic Faith as well
and that is what they call their church
Apostolic Faith Church
I do not remember why they call their church that, but I do remember very compelling evidence in Acts that support this.

Also, I was shown which church is which, as Revelations discusses them with the 7 seals.
But I fail to remember that, nor do I feel I should be judging each doctrine because I may be wrong.


But here is where I stand, I have went to church on and off my whole life and have never felt the Holy Spirit as I do when I walk into an Apostolic Faith Church.
I felt the Holy Spirit enter my body and it changed me forever.

In the end, we are to do what the Bible teaches, we are not to add words, nor take them away.

Just like science, if a theory does not work 100% of the time it is thrown out.

If each and every word of God does not fit in your doctrine then your doctrine is wrong.

Even if scripture suggests something relevant to your doctrine, it means nothing if other scripture contradicts your doctrine.

Huge example

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

That means exactly what it says.
But does man listen?
Man worships photo's of Jesus, statues, crosses, photos of Mary, symbols of Mary, and the list goes on and on.
Even those who have logo's of their sports team on their wall and actually look at it and pray to God their team wins are graven images.


We all need to get together, study scripture and teach each other what is going on and fix the madness, at least for ourselves.

One of the reasons I do not go to church is because of all the false teachings.

So we ignore scripture that contradicts our doctrine and do it anyway?

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 23, 2013, 04:28:08 pm
I really wished I remembered these things better.

The apostolic faith church I used to attend, the pastor taught that Jesus said what the house of God shall be called and in Revelations the 7 seals represents the 7 churches that will all be judged.

I just woke up, and did a little digging and the best I can come up with is this verse:

Luke 19:46
And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

And that is what the name of their church was
"House of Prayer"

Now, his grandson also firmly believes that the only true faith is the,
Apostolic Faith as well
and that is what they call their church
Apostolic Faith Church
I do not remember why they call their church that, but I do remember very compelling evidence in Acts that support this.

Also, I was shown which church is which, as Revelations discusses them with the 7 seals.
But I fail to remember that, nor do I feel I should be judging each doctrine because I may be wrong.


But here is where I stand, I have went to church on and off my whole life and have never felt the Holy Spirit as I do when I walk into an Apostolic Faith Church.
I felt the Holy Spirit enter my body and it changed me forever.

In the end, we are to do what the Bible teaches, we are not to add words, nor take them away.

Just like science, if a theory does not work 100% of the time it is thrown out.

If each and every word of God does not fit in your doctrine then your doctrine is wrong.

Even if scripture suggests something relevant to your doctrine, it means nothing if other scripture contradicts your doctrine.

Huge example

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

That means exactly what it says.
But does man listen?
Man worships photo's of Jesus, statues, crosses, photos of Mary, symbols of Mary, and the list goes on and on.
Even those who have logo's of their sports team on their wall and actually look at it and pray to God their team wins are graven images.


We all need to get together, study scripture and teach each other what is going on and fix the madness, at least for ourselves.

One of the reasons I do not go to church is because of all the false teachings.

So we ignore scripture that contradicts our doctrine and do it anyway?

GiG, it seems as if your spiritual vision is gaining much clarity.  :)

You know that the trials of this life are fighting with what you know life should be in your own heart. We are programmed for a very different life. One without a knowledge of evil and without those who practise it to the detriment of others.

False religion saturates this world and offends the one who gave us life....but not for much longer.

A world without evil is promised under the rule of God's kingdom. Read Rev 21:1-4 and see that when "new Jerusalem" (God's kingdom) rules the earth, all causes of pain and suffering that are part of satan's world will have "passed away."

I see from your posts that you desire for the evil in this world to be eliminated, by force if necessary. That is exactly what will happen. The kingdom will "come" and take over the reins of earth's rulership, "crushing" the present corrupt human kingdoms out of existence. (Dan 2:44) But humans will not need to lift a finger in order to bring it about. All we have to do is sound the warning like Noah did, knowing that the majority will not listen. (Matt 24:36-39)  :( We offer men the solution, but they want it only on their own terms.

If you would like to study the Bible for yourself, contact Jehovah's Witnesses and ask for a Bible study. There is no cost or obligation, and you can have all your questions answered from your own Bible in the privacy of your own home. The truth will set you free!

The life that is programmed into your heart is not far away. Please pray about it and follow the lead of Jehovah's spirit.

You are in my prayers also.  ;)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 23, 2013, 04:42:34 pm
Whom then will in fact receive the inheritance of the kingdom, Max?
All those that have been sealed by means of Jehovah God's holy spirit for this privilege. Romans 8:4,16,17 explicates, "“All who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”"

Is this to say "Jehovah's witnesses?"  If so, those passages in Romans, or anywhere in the Bible, do not actually explicate that particular term, not unlike your arguments against the term "Trinity" appearing in the Bible (which I acknowledge is true).  Is there some justification then for this terminological concept that should so deem it set apart from the concept of "Trinity?"


Hebrews 11-12:1 identifies all of Jehovah God's sedulous worshipers as his witnesses. (Compare with Isaiah 43:10-12) Even Christ identifies himself as Jehovah's witness. (Revelation 3:14) With these facts in mind, of course, those who are to inherit the kingdom along with Christ are witnesses of Jehovah. Why wouldn't they be?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 23, 2013, 04:51:58 pm
What I am getting at is Biblical concepts, not religious identities per se, need not necessarily be declared so explicitly in the Bible in order to possibly be valid, biblical concepts; i.e.: Sola Scriptura.
From what I can see, I'm really not sure how well such a mindset holds-up. ie. the Bible seems unyielding with regards to belief and worship. To which I'd add, would have a major impact on Christian doctrines as a whole. That being said, while I'd agree that the word Trinity does not appear anywhere in the Bible, I'd also point-out that the Bible does not seem to support Trinitarian worship either. ie. true worship was not subject to a Trinitarian worship in the OT which was exclusively monotheistic in nature. And so for me, I find both the label and supporting evidence to be missing.


Correct! The Israelites' worship was absolutely Unitarian. When they deviated from this they suffered Jehovah God's disfavor and adverse judgment.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 23, 2013, 04:55:54 pm
I really wished I remembered these things better.

The apostolic faith church I used to attend, the pastor taught that Jesus said what the house of God shall be called and in Revelations the 7 seals represents the 7 churches that will all be judged.

I just woke up, and did a little digging and the best I can come up with is this verse:

Luke 19:46
And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

And that is what the name of their church was
"House of Prayer"

Now, his grandson also firmly believes that the only true faith is the,
Apostolic Faith as well
and that is what they call their church
Apostolic Faith Church
I do not remember why they call their church that, but I do remember very compelling evidence in Acts that support this.

Also, I was shown which church is which, as Revelations discusses them with the 7 seals.
But I fail to remember that, nor do I feel I should be judging each doctrine because I may be wrong.


But here is where I stand, I have went to church on and off my whole life and have never felt the Holy Spirit as I do when I walk into an Apostolic Faith Church.
I felt the Holy Spirit enter my body and it changed me forever.

In the end, we are to do what the Bible teaches, we are not to add words, nor take them away.

Just like science, if a theory does not work 100% of the time it is thrown out.

If each and every word of God does not fit in your doctrine then your doctrine is wrong.

Even if scripture suggests something relevant to your doctrine, it means nothing if other scripture contradicts your doctrine.

Huge example

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

That means exactly what it says.
But does man listen?
Man worships photo's of Jesus, statues, crosses, photos of Mary, symbols of Mary, and the list goes on and on.
Even those who have logo's of their sports team on their wall and actually look at it and pray to God their team wins are graven images.


We all need to get together, study scripture and teach each other what is going on and fix the madness, at least for ourselves.

One of the reasons I do not go to church is because of all the false teachings.

So we ignore scripture that contradicts our doctrine and do it anyway?
There's more at play here, though. Remember Christ's parable of the wheat and the weeds at Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 23, 2013, 05:08:08 pm

If you would like to study the Bible for yourself, contact Jehovah's Witnesses and ask for a Bible study. There is no cost or obligation, and you can have all your questions answered from your own Bible in the privacy of your own home. The truth will set you free!

The life that is programmed into your heart is not far away. Please pray about it and follow the lead of Jehovah's spirit.

You are in my prayers also.  ;)

Thanks, but in this point in time in my life I do not desire to put my faith in man.
Do not take it personal though :)

I like these forums because we all learn something new from all the debating and discussing things.

Every single thread goes off topic and it is because God is here and leading us to discuss what puts us on the right paths.

Thanks for the prayers, same back at yah as well. ;)
You are a fine example of why the applaud count here means nothing.
remember, Jesus hung on  a cross and was beat, because of mans jealousy and hate. ;)

I also wish to say, if my posts offend anyone, it is not my intentions.

You must realize though, we cant keep what we believe to be truth to ourselves and pat others on the back and lie to them to save faith, if you will.
However I wont press the issues.


There's more at play here, though. Remember Christ's parable of the wheat and the weeds at Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43?

exactly.

that balance is hard to maintain



Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 23, 2013, 05:14:02 pm

There's more at play here, though. Remember Christ's parable of the wheat and the weeds at Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43?
Quote
exactly.

that balance is hard to maintain


How do you mean? Please elaborate :)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 23, 2013, 05:20:51 pm

There's more at play here, though. Remember Christ's parable of the wheat and the weeds at Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43?
Quote
exactly.

that balance is hard to maintain


How do you mean? Please elaborate :)

because, violently pulling the weeds out can cause the good plants to die.

Example,
A pastor realizes that one of his members is fake, and goes out drinking, breaking Gods law on purpose, and then comes to church and denies he does those things.
But Joe has many friends in church that do not know the real Joe and believe he is a good Holy man, one they can learn from.

If the pastor just throws Joe out of the church violently, many good men may follow Joe right to hell.

In short, one does not violently rip all the weeds out of the garden, that will almost certainly kill the veggies as well.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 23, 2013, 06:40:04 pm

There's more at play here, though. Remember Christ's parable of the wheat and the weeds at Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43?
Quote
exactly.

that balance is hard to maintain


How do you mean? Please elaborate :)

because, violently pulling the weeds out can cause the good plants to die.

Example,
A pastor realizes that one of his members is fake, and goes out drinking, breaking Gods law on purpose, and then comes to church and denies he does those things.
But Joe has many friends in church that do not know the real Joe and believe he is a good Holy man, one they can learn from.

If the pastor just throws Joe out of the church violently, many good men may follow Joe right to hell.

In short, one does not violently rip all the weeds out of the garden, that will almost certainly kill the veggies as well.


Thank you for that clarification!


I'd like to ask, according to Christ's explanation, who sowed the weeds, what does the field itself represent, who are represented by the weeds and what does the harvest represent?


Now, you also say

Quote

If the pastor just throws Joe out of the church violently, many good men may follow Joe right to hell.
How is this compatible with the edict we find at 1 Corinthians 5:11-13?


Finally, you seem to connote that the wicked are to be tortured by God in a fiery hell for all eternity. If this is in fact what you do believe, why was Christ in hell after he died?



Acts 2:31
King James Bible
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


American King James Version
He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell  neither his flesh did see corruption.


Bible in Basic English
He, having knowledge of the future, was talking of the coming again of Christ from the dead, that he was not kept in hell and his body did not see destruction.


Douay-Rheims Bible
Foreseeing this, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ. For neither was he left in hell  neither did his flesh see corruption.


Webster's Bible Translation
He seeing this before, spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell  neither did his flesh see corruption.


Concerning Jesus, Acts 2:27 informs us -


King James Bible
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


American King James Version
Because you will not leave my soul in hell, neither will you suffer your Holy One to see corruption.


Bible in Basic English
For you will not let my soul be in hell and you will not give up your Holy One to destruction.


Douay-Rheims Bible
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, nor suffer thy Holy One to see corruption.


Webster's Bible Translation
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thy Holy One to see corruption:



Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: God Is Good on July 23, 2013, 06:43:30 pm
interesting points, however, not feeling good, will love to discuss this later.

perhaps this is relevant for a new thread.
because it has huge merit in discussion.

bbl
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 23, 2013, 06:47:37 pm
interesting points, however, not feeling good, will love to discuss this later.

perhaps this is relevant for a new thread.
because it has huge merit in discussion.

bbl


No worries. Feel free to start the threads and send me the links.


Feel better!
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Stephen on July 23, 2013, 09:06:47 pm
That being said, while I'd agree that the word Trinity does not appear anywhere in the Bible, I'd also point-out that the Bible does not seem to support Trinitarian worship either. ie. true worship was not subject to a Trinitarian worship in the OT which was exclusively monotheistic in nature. And so for me, I find both the label and supporting evidence to be missing.

I'm not so sure about your description of the true nature of worship in the OT.  It seems to me there were numerous "vehicles" to worship God through prior to Christ's existence and subsequent redemption opening that line in a special way, i.e.: animal sacrifice, Ark of the Covenant, the residence of the Holy Spirit in the Temple, etc.  Moreover, in the NT, when Jesus arrives, he teaches much the same in that worship/path to the Father very much goes through him.  One thing that remains the same in either testament I doubt anyone would dispute: God is the proper object of worship.

That the trinity concept did not exist in the OT, really is inconsequential- it does not seem that it necessarily had to exist then in order to exist at all.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 23, 2013, 10:27:02 pm
That being said, while I'd agree that the word Trinity does not appear anywhere in the Bible, I'd also point-out that the Bible does not seem to support Trinitarian worship either. ie. true worship was not subject to a Trinitarian worship in the OT which was exclusively monotheistic in nature. And so for me, I find both the label and supporting evidence to be missing.

One thing that remains the same in either testament I doubt anyone would dispute: God is the proper object of worship.
I'm puzzled. If you believe this to be true, why do you worship Jesus as God instead of The Father, Jehovah God?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 24, 2013, 12:38:07 am
...It seems to me there were numerous "vehicles" to worship God through prior to Christ's existence and subsequent redemption opening that line in a special way, i.e.: animal sacrifice, Ark of the Covenant, the residence of the Holy Spirit in the Temple, etc.
While it I'd agree that things have changed since Christ's death in terms of sacrifices etc, I'd also point out that nowhere in the OT do we find God's people worshiping anyone but YHWH alone. And so I guess there's that to consider.

Quote
God is the proper object of worship.
I agree. And more importantly, where God(in this case) was YHWH the Father. And so I think it's important to identify this given that YHWH was not recognized as a tri-personal being etc.

Quote
That the trinity concept did not exist in the OT, really is inconsequential- it does not seem that it necessarily had to exist then in order to exist at all.
I agree.
Which is why I consider the Trinity to be a frivolous doctrine today.
Though that doesn't mean it doesn't come with it fair share of consequences too. Which is why I often caution people against adopting it.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 24, 2013, 03:23:21 am
While it I'd agree that things have changed since Christ's death in terms of sacrifices etc, I'd also point out that nowhere in the OT do we find God's people worshiping anyone but YHWH alone. And so I guess there's that to consider.

If by God's people you mean Israel, they worshiped pagan deities as well, as we know from the OT.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 24, 2013, 03:33:38 am
If by God's people you mean Israel, they worshiped pagan deities as well, as we know from the OT.
You're right.
I should have clarified.
This was pertinent to the terms of true worship.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 24, 2013, 03:50:04 am
This was pertinent to the terms of true worship.

I figured that out. ;)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Stephen on July 24, 2013, 07:15:56 am
That being said, while I'd agree that the word Trinity does not appear anywhere in the Bible, I'd also point-out that the Bible does not seem to support Trinitarian worship either. ie. true worship was not subject to a Trinitarian worship in the OT which was exclusively monotheistic in nature. And so for me, I find both the label and supporting evidence to be missing.

One thing that remains the same in either testament I doubt anyone would dispute: God is the proper object of worship.
I'm puzzled. If you believe this to be true, why do you worship Jesus as God instead of The Father, Jehovah God?

That's a fair question.

Though I wouldn't say I worship Jesus as God "instead" of The Father God, for to me they are consubstantial.  There is one God to whom all worship is directed to, and this God so far as I can tell, is a trinitarian god-head.  As I have detailed out before, each person has a role in worship, for instance via prayer:

As Christians we are to be filled with the Spirit (Acts), which will intercede on our behalf given we do not know what to pray for (Romans 8:26, John 14:16). Praying with this power of the Holy Spirit within us (Jude 1:20, Ephesians 6:18) might be seen as mediated by Jesus, such to translate our prayers into the language of God, given that Jesus is the Word (John 1:1). Therefore:
 
- The Holy Spirit empowers and elevates our prayers (as cited scripture above)
- Jesus mediates prayer by making accessible to the Father (John 14:6, John 10:9, Ephesians 2:18)
- The Father then answers the prayer (Matthew 7:7, Psalm 34:4, Isaiah 30:19, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13, John 15:7, 1 John 5:14)
 
All through one God (1 John 5:20, John 14:9, 1 John 1:2).

I think the Trinitarian setup is explanatorily powerful, if not quite ingenious. The way the Bible alludes to the Trinity looks to be in terms of a logical procession of rank, especially in terms of prayer: (1) Pray to the Father (2) through the Son (3) empowered by the Holy Spirit. In essence, there is a logical boundary to the causal chain- prayers don’t just “randomly float” to some person of the Trinity, rather roles are logically defined. Prayer performed then in this way, necessarily activates all three members of the Trinity such to worship the complete Godhead.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 24, 2013, 12:29:20 pm
He was not speaking about the law generally.
If the law was adapted to the hardness of our hearts at one point, it was adapted - period.  Matthew 5:21 is pure (summarised) Law, no rabbinical interpretation - yet Jesus adds harshness which was not in the Mosaic version.  Likewise in 27 - pure Mosaic Law.  (Of course, He attacked the traditions too, but that is not relevant to the topic.)
The Law came in stages - the Noachidic Law was even less demanding: don't eat blood because the soul is in it; don't shed human blood.
Even a watered-down law was untenable for us - what a message!

Quote
Is God's love imperfect?
No, which is why He offers free salvation to even the worst offender.
Quote
Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah. (Rom 12:17-19, Deut 32:35)
I see how you are forced to this interpretation - but here God is simply telling that He Himself will pay the price.  Yes, all the force of legal condemnation and punishment is there, but unless we refuse the offer of salvation (in which case our fate will indeed be terrible - much worse than death: Hebrews 10:28-29), it won't fall on us.

Quote
(Ex 21:23, 24; Deut 19:18-21; Lev 24:19, 20)
Oh, I fully agree the limitation of vengeance is in the Law - but not the pagan notion of scales of justice.

Quote
Now, if all the Christians in the world were all of one belief and one mind and thought on the interpretation of scripture, you might have grounds for that statement to be true.
Again guilt by association.  Arians sacked Rome, killing infants and raping women - so Arians are evil.  Also, we all know Arians aren't all of one mind, so they can't be God's children.
I am united with the brothers and sisters I find all over the world.  (And not simply because we throw out all who disagree, which would be a trivial way to get agreement.  I have never encountered that someone had to leave, though I agree it might and probably does happen.)

Quote from: Biep
Parables apply generically.  Each of us must be a wise virgin, each of us a field with good earth, each of us wheat, not tare, each of us the merchant who gladly fives up everything for the pearl.
Defanging the parable of the faithful slave would be as wrong as declaring that some specific person or group were the merchant.
Quote from: Jem
The meaning of the parables is not brushed off by saying that they were just illustrations....they had real meaning to real people or else why were they given?
Which is exactly what I am saying.  The parable of the slave is about me and you, and gives us marching orders.  Saying it doesn't apply to me is denying its nature as a parable.  I have the duty to be a faithful slave.
Why do you think we have the duty each of us to contribute to our meetings (1 Corinthians 14:26)?  Because God has distributed His gifts, and only together we can know the the breadth, and length, and depth, and height.

There is a dangerous tendency in some groups to defang Scripture by declaring that yes, it is Scripture, true, but it doesn't apply to me - it applies or applied to another group, maybe in another time period, or whatever.  In a few cases this is justified, as there is clear Scriptural support for it (e.g. the Mosaic Law), but in many others it is a satanic device for creating "a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof".  Turning (generic) parables into (specific) prophecy is one such way.

Quote
And the very fact that you have no global brotherhood with whom you meet and agree in teaching and activity,
But I do, as I have told before as well.  I explained it when you asked me regarding Hebrews 10:25.
Quote
That is why you don't see it as an activity of most churches.
I see evangelism as a huge, world-wide activity of Christians, in which I have been given the grace of playing a small part.
Quote
'Christendom' is the product of the foretold apostasy. And you are right...it is guilt by association. It is God himself who tells his people to "get out of her". (Rev 18:4, 5)
Well, as you seem to be the one defining the term, it is up to you to define people in or out.  If I define the term door-to-door-goers to cover nazi's, the red khmer and JW's, does that mean you will now have the leave the JWs because door-to-door-goers are an evil bunch?

When in 1568 William the Silent tried to start a revolution in the (Protestant) Netherlands that were being severly oppressed by (Roman Catholic) Spain, he could find no support, because protestants don't fight.  Finally, he found a group in Switzerland, the Calvinists, that taught fighting was OK, and he exported that to the Netherlands.  But even in 1648, at the end of the Eighty-Years' War, less than 10% of the population was Calvinist.
Should the others stop being Protestant because "Protestants fight"?

Again, try to form your arguments against a specific group such as the Mennonites instead of a self-defined grab-bag, and see what such reasoning is really worth!

Quote
"Few" are on the road to life, remember? (Matt 7:13, 14)
That was about the Jews of that time.  Out of the gentiles there will be an innumerable crowd.  (Which is far from saying, of course, that the visible church corresponds to the Church.)
Quote
And they were to be hated and persecuted.
Yes, persecution is part and parcel of being a Christian - and it is a horrible thing.  In 1994 we were in Ghana, shortly after the Dagomba-Konkomba war.  We were with a young Konkomba, the only survivor of a family of over 100 Christians - all tortured and killed for their faith.  He had just become a missionary among the Dagomba's, because "people who do that kind of thing desperately need the Gospel".
Quote
They would have "love among themselves" and they would be global preachers.
Check and check!
Quote
This is not just foreign missionary work; it is preaching to all without prejudice.
True.  But there was a development.  The Jews got their chance, but few found the narrow gate (they will in the end: Romans 11:25-26; Revelation 7:1-8).  Now is the time for the gentiles, and in the end the fullness of the Jews will come in.  The great commission starts with the word "πορευθεντες" - departing, going elsewhere (related to "porous" - allowing liquid or gass to pass through).  The Gospel must be brought to the "ends of the world".  Paul made a point of going where the word hadn't been preched yet, and imitating him would hardly be the wrong thing to do.  But one should not neglect the place where one is already, of course.

Quote
Yes, and that is why we also go to help others when our brothers' needs are met. (Gal 6:9, 10)
Good!  But wouldn't most refuse help until their non-Christian neighbours are being helped?  That's what typically happens in Africa when disaster strikes, especially religious disaster.  In Northern Nigeria, this seems to be the largest contributing factor to church growth: they see that Christians do indeed consider others as better than themselves.  But of course, if one can do something that is good for all, and especially ones fellow believers, that is the way to go.  Rebuilding infrastructure would be a typical case, I suppose.

Quote
The criteria is there in the scriptures for all to see. Who are living up to it today? Not the "many" and not the ones who just call themselves "Christians". (Matt 7:21-23)
Are you lumping groups together again here?  Or else, how exactly do you define the "many" (other than "non-JWs who profess belief in Jesus")?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 24, 2013, 12:36:06 pm
Quote from: Biep
Where does it say Jesus had to pay the life of Adam?
"It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Cor 15:45; Gen 2:7)
That is a far cry from a statement that Jesus had to pay the perfect physical life Adam forfeited.  I am asking for a reference to that doctrine - I suppose you read it in the Bible somewhere.  After all, it contradicts the plain message of John 19:28-30 that all was completed before Jesus died physically.
Quote from: John 19:28-30
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said, I thirst.  Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it on hyssop, and put it to his mouth.  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is accomplished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus is called "the last Adam" because he paid the price of Adam's sin with his own perfect life.
And that is a different statement again.  The price of the sin was infinite, the spiritual life Adam lost that day was finite - and the physical life he lost centuries later was even less valuable.
I agree Jesus' sacrifice covers the price of Adam's sin - and mine, and yours.  (By the way, this means that if Adam accepts the offer, he will be saved, because his sins are payed for.)
On this statement, an infinite ransom is needed.  The theft must be repaid and then some, and then there is the sacrilege.  Which fits with the given that the whole of creation does not suffice as a ransom.
Quote
He paid a price that no other human could. (Psalm 49:7, 8.)
Because He had that infinite worth.

Quote from: Jem
It's like the kingdom....what is it?
Quote from: Biep
Those who are reborn know, those who aren't will never know until it is too late.
Quote from: Jem
LOL...nice dodge.  :D Can you be more specific? Surely it is not a difficult question....?
It wasn't meant as a dodge.  About the legal side I have already written a bit, showing how the wine Jesus drank after all was accomplished meant He had entered His Kingdom.  I am in it, as are all those who have been accepted and sealed with the Holy Spirit.
I thought you were asking about what it is like to be in the Kingdom, to have the Spirit procaiming one a son of the Most High, to live in the wonderful light of Christ - that is something to be experienced, I am afraid.  I can tell you it is definitely worth it, though!  Together with this comes the process of yielding to the reign of Christ in my heart.
There are only two Kingdoms (Colossians 1:13) - in which one are you?

Quote from: Biep
He had to be God to free from the Law (Romans 7:3).  The covenant was with God, so God had to die to free us from it.  This too I have explained in detail before.
If Jesus weren't God, the old covenants would still be in full force and condemn us, as Colossians 2:14 would have been false.
Quote from: Jem
How so? Once Christ had fulfilled the law, it was no longer necessary.
He had fulfilled the Law, but not yet freed us from it.  Romans 7 explains it admirably.
Verse 4 is especially rich.  We are to marry Jesus, and that fertile marriage will bring forth God's fruits.

Quote from: Jem
It was God who freed his people from the "curse" of the law by sending his son to pay the ransom for them.
Quote from: Biep
Which would make Him a moral monster.  He could have paid the price Himself, yet abused the love of a (finite, no less) innocent third person.  Morally, that would put Jesus way above the Father.
Quote from: Jem
What ?? We have a volunteer here who loved mankind because he was instrumental in their formation. (Prov 8:22, 30)
Leaving aside the unwarranted unification of lady Wisdom with Jesus here, I fully agree that under your interpretation Jesus is exceedingly good - as He is under mine.
Quote
You are devaluing the love of the Christ as a reflection of his Father's love. (John 3:16)
There would be no love from the father's side.  We know what love is - the Bible spells it out.  The greatest love is to give ones life for others (Romans 5:7-8).  If Jesus is not God, then those verses are nonsense: "Giving ones life is a sacrificial act rarely seen, but God showed His love by sending someone else to suffer on our behalf."  Right.
Neither the argument structure (jumping from giving ones own life to God giving someone else's life), nor the message make sense if Jesus is not God.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 25, 2013, 11:08:44 am
While it I'd agree that things have changed since Christ's death in terms of sacrifices etc, I'd also point out that nowhere in the OT do we find God's people worshiping anyone but YHWH alone. And so I guess there's that to consider.

If by God's people you mean Israel, they worshiped pagan deities as well, as we know from the OT.
And they suffered dearly for it.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 25, 2013, 11:12:01 am
That being said, while I'd agree that the word Trinity does not appear anywhere in the Bible, I'd also point-out that the Bible does not seem to support Trinitarian worship either. ie. true worship was not subject to a Trinitarian worship in the OT which was exclusively monotheistic in nature. And so for me, I find both the label and supporting evidence to be missing.

One thing that remains the same in either testament I doubt anyone would dispute: God is the proper object of worship.
I'm puzzled. If you believe this to be true, why do you worship Jesus as God instead of The Father, Jehovah God?

That's a fair question.

Though I wouldn't say I worship Jesus as God "instead" of The Father God, for to me they are consubstantial.  There is one God to whom all worship is directed to, and this God so far as I can tell, is a trinitarian god-head.  As I have detailed out before, each person has a role in worship, for instance via prayer:

As Christians we are to be filled with the Spirit (Acts), which will intercede on our behalf given we do not know what to pray for (Romans 8:26, John 14:16). Praying with this power of the Holy Spirit within us (Jude 1:20, Ephesians 6:18) might be seen as mediated by Jesus, such to translate our prayers into the language of God, given that Jesus is the Word (John 1:1). Therefore:
 
- The Holy Spirit empowers and elevates our prayers (as cited scripture above)
- Jesus mediates prayer by making accessible to the Father (John 14:6, John 10:9, Ephesians 2:18)
- The Father then answers the prayer (Matthew 7:7, Psalm 34:4, Isaiah 30:19, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13, John 15:7, 1 John 5:14)
 
All through one God (1 John 5:20, John 14:9, 1 John 1:2).

I think the Trinitarian setup is explanatorily powerful, if not quite ingenious. The way the Bible alludes to the Trinity looks to be in terms of a logical procession of rank, especially in terms of prayer: (1) Pray to the Father (2) through the Son (3) empowered by the Holy Spirit. In essence, there is a logical boundary to the causal chain- prayers don’t just “randomly float” to some person of the Trinity, rather roles are logically defined. Prayer performed then in this way, necessarily activates all three members of the Trinity such to worship the complete Godhead.
If you could clarify for me, then, who hears the prayer?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 29, 2013, 08:32:44 am
The question whether one perfect physical human life was all payment needed for all our sins is of fundamental importance - arguably even more so than the Trinity.
Therefore I have started a new thread (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/incarnation/merely-one-perfect-phsical-human-life-6022408.msg1275166450.html#msg1275166450), where it can be discussed apart from other considerations.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Stephen on July 29, 2013, 08:43:50 am
If you could clarify for me, then, who hears the prayer?

Sorry Maxx, almost missed this!

Well, they all literally would hear the prayer, necessarily.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 29, 2013, 09:09:22 pm
If you could clarify for me, then, who hears the prayer?

Sorry Maxx, almost missed this!

Well, they all literally would hear the prayer, necessarily.


No worries! :)


Problem is, Psalm 65:2 explicitly states only The Father, Jehovah God hears - and, consequently, responds to - prayers. (Compare with Psalm 145:18; Deuteronomy 4:7; 1 Kings 18:36)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 29, 2013, 09:16:40 pm
Psalm 65.2 says God hears prayers and Jesus is God (see the OP), as is the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 29, 2013, 10:52:48 pm
Psalm 65.2 says God hears prayers and Jesus is God (see the OP), as is the Father and the Holy Spirit.
You're presupposing the Athanasian Creed. Try again.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 29, 2013, 10:56:42 pm
Nope. I neither accept nor reject the Athanasian creed. Try again.

I'm just following the bible. :)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 29, 2013, 11:24:05 pm
I'm just following the bible.


If that's true, why do you worship Jesus as God when the Bible clearly states The Father, Jehovah, is exclusively and thoroughly God? (1 Corinthians 8:6)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 29, 2013, 11:31:51 pm
Well the passage either says there is "one God the Father", which I agree with since I think there is also God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, or it says there is "one God, the Father,", which I also agree with since I believe there is one God and the Father is that one God as is the Son and so is the Holy Spirit.  Nonetheless, I'm glad you brought that text up!

"there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him." (NWT)

Notice the phraseology of 1 Cor. 8.6, "one God...one Lord..."

Let's look at Deut. 6.4 (LXX): ...κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν κύριος εἷς ἐστιν (transliterated, kurios ho theos hemon kurios heis estin.

Now look at the Greek of 1 Cor. 8.6:
ἀλλ᾿ ἡμῖν εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατὴρ
   ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν,
καὶ εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς
   δι᾿ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι᾿ αὐτοῦ.
Or, transliterated:
all' hemin heis theos ho pater
   ex hou ta panta kai hemeis heis auton,
kai heis kurious Iesous Christos
   di hou ta panta kai hemeis di autou.
And estin is carried over from verse 5.

Thus, we see Paul use all of the words of the shema but rearrange it to include Jesus.  Hence, Paul is taking the most monotheistic passage that talks about Israel's one true God and saying both the Father and Jesus belong in there.  Therefore, Paul is saying that Jesus is God while not saying that Jesus is another god, but the same God as the Father, yet they are separate.  With all of that in mind, 1 Cor. 8.5-6 is another passage that shows that Jesus is God.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 29, 2013, 11:32:33 pm
Daniel 7 is extremely intriguing. G. K. Beale mentions that the rabbis sometimes called God the "cloud rider". In the OT, it is only God who travels on the clouds (e.g. 2 Sam. 22:10-12; Job 22:14; Pss. 97:2-5; 104:3; Jer. 4:13; Nah. 1:3). Against this background, it is curious that the one like a Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven (v. 13). It is also worth mentioning that, according to Beale, one major version of the LXX (the OG) depicts the Son of Man as a deity like the Ancient of Days.

When reading Isaiah 9:6, it is almost impossible not to see a reference to Daniel's Son of Man. "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (ESV)

St. John portrays Jesus as appearing as "one like a son of man" (Rev. 1:13), clear reference to Daniel 7, and then describes him with a description of the Ancient of Days: "The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow." (ESV)

Matthew 26:63-66 is interesting in this context.

63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven." 65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. 66 What is your judgment?" They answered, "He deserves death."

When Jesus identified himself as the Son of Man before the Sanhedrin, he was immediately accused of blasphemy. Like these Jews, many today do not know who Jesus is.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 29, 2013, 11:34:25 pm
If that's true, why do you worship Jesus as God when the Bible clearly states The Father, Jehovah, is exclusively and thoroughly God? (1 Corinthians 8:6)

If you are implying that 1 Corinthians 8:6 proves that only the Father is God, then, by the same logic, we must conclude that Father is not Lord since Jesus Christ is the only Lord.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 29, 2013, 11:40:39 pm
I think there is also God the Son and God the Holy Spirit
Prove the reality of these mythical figures with Scripture.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 29, 2013, 11:46:46 pm
If that's true, why do you worship Jesus as God when the Bible clearly states The Father, Jehovah, is exclusively and thoroughly God? (1 Corinthians 8:6)

If you are implying that 1 Corinthians 8:6 proves that only the Father is God, then, by the same logic, we must conclude that Father is not Lord since Jesus Christ is the only Lord.




The Bible characterizes Nebuchadnezzar as "king of kings." (Daniel 2:37) By your logic, this means Christ cannot be "king of kings" referred to at Revelation 17:14. It must, necessarily, be Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon.

Nevermind the fact that your exegesis is anti Christ's own words at Matthew 11:27. (Compare with John 13:3 and 1 Peter 3:22)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: anuts on July 29, 2013, 11:47:18 pm
Quick question:
Was Jesus in the habit of correcting people on their misunderstanding(s) of scripture, theology, and the truth?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 29, 2013, 11:52:48 pm
The Bible characterizes Nebuchadnezzar as "king of kings." (Daniel 2:37) By your logic, this means Christ cannot be "king of kings" referred to at Revelation 17:14. It must, necessarily, be Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon.

I lol'd.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 29, 2013, 11:54:54 pm
If that's true, why do you worship Jesus as God when the Bible clearly states The Father, Jehovah, is exclusively and thoroughly God? (1 Corinthians 8:6)

If you are implying that 1 Corinthians 8:6 proves that only the Father is God, then, by the same logic, we must conclude that Father is not Lord since Jesus Christ is the only Lord.


The Bible characterizes Nebuchadnezzar as "king of kings." (Daniel 2:37) By your logic, this means Christ cannot be "king of kings" referred to at Revelation 17:14. It must, necessarily, be Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon.

That just further proves that your interpretation of it is wrong. That means that Jesus can be God. In the same way, God can be Lord. In the same way, Nebuchadnezzar can be king of kings. See the issue with your interpretation? You just, literally, proved your own interpretation false. I'd wager a guess that is why veka is loling.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 12:00:49 am
Quick question:
Was Jesus in the habit of correcting people on their misunderstanding(s) of scripture, theology, and the truth?
Certainly. See Matthew 23.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 12:01:32 am
The Bible characterizes Nebuchadnezzar as "king of kings." (Daniel 2:37) By your logic, this means Christ cannot be "king of kings" referred to at Revelation 17:14. It must, necessarily, be Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon.

I lol'd.
I'm glad you realize how equally risible your exegesis is :)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 12:06:51 am
If that's true, why do you worship Jesus as God when the Bible clearly states The Father, Jehovah, is exclusively and thoroughly God? (1 Corinthians 8:6)

If you are implying that 1 Corinthians 8:6 proves that only the Father is God, then, by the same logic, we must conclude that Father is not Lord since Jesus Christ is the only Lord.


The Bible characterizes Nebuchadnezzar as "king of kings." (Daniel 2:37) By your logic, this means Christ cannot be "king of kings" referred to at Revelation 17:14. It must, necessarily, be Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon.

That just further proves that your interpretation of it is wrong. That means that Jesus can be God. In the same way, God can be Lord. In the same way, Nebuchadnezzar can be king of kings. See the issue with your interpretation? You just, literally, proved your own interpretation false. I'd wager a guess that is why veka is loling.
Problem is my exegesis is consistent with the rest of Scripture, to wit, only Jehovah God is The Father. Do you disagree?


"Lord" on the other hand is a term typically employed relatively. The passage in question is an example of such especially in light of scriptures such as Matthew 11:27; John 13:3 and 1 Peter 3:22, to only mention a few.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: anuts on July 30, 2013, 12:21:31 am
Quick question:
Was Jesus in the habit of correcting people on their misunderstanding(s) of scripture, theology, and the truth?
Certainly. See Matthew 23.

That's interesting. Yet, for some unknown reason, while the Jews, Pharisees, and even the Sanhedrin itself (standing before Him with accusations of a specific nature-that is one of claiming deity) he never once corrected them.

Perhaps He thought it not important enough for people to get that right?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 30, 2013, 12:46:29 am
Problem is my exegesis is consistent with the rest of Scripture, to wit, only Jehovah God is The Father. Do you disagree?

I would disagree slightly in terminology. I would say that the Father is Jehovah God. How about we just call him God, and save the typing lol? If you can say that there are other lords, then someone else can say there are other Gods. More relevantly, others can say that there are other persons in God.

Quote
"Lord" on the other hand is a term typically employed relatively. The passage in question is an example of such especially in light of scriptures such as Matthew 11:27; John 13:3 and 1 Peter 3:22, to only mention a few.

Right, but it said our only lord. That is why it's so important. If I say you're the only soldier, that means you're the only soldier. But, context is important. If I say you're the only soldier in Boston, you're the only soldier in Boston, but there may be other soldiers elsewhere! The context of this verse is very clearly total.

Quote
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

This is very clearly saying there is only one Lord. Now, if you can interpret this and say "no, there are other lords for us", then I can say "no, there are other Gods for us". But, I'm not a polytheist, so I wouldn't even say that. This verse says that there is only one God, and we agree, it's monotheistic. And, the Father is God, so again, we agree with this verse. AAQ already gave you the reversal that shows this to be evidence of Jesus' Godhood so I won't go there.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 30, 2013, 12:47:19 am
Perhaps He thought it not important enough for people to get that right?
I think you'll find that the answer to this would depend on what is meant by the term "deity" ie. if it meant that Jesus was a heavenly spirit being who resided with his Father before the world was, then no. Jesus would not have denied this. In fact, this was the very point he was making when he claimed that he existed before Abraham.

However... if by deity, we mean to say that Jesus is/was God, then I'd point-out that he most certainly denied such a thing. ie. when he was accused of blasphemy(making yourself out to be like God), and the religious leaders threatened to stone him, Jesus flatly denied the charge by pointing out that he only ever claimed to be God's son(no more no less).
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 30, 2013, 12:47:29 am
I'm glad you realize how equally risible your exegesis is :)

You are totally confused. It was your logic, not my exegesis.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 30, 2013, 12:53:10 am
However... if by deity, we mean to say that Jesus is/was God, then I'd point-out that he most certainly denied such a thing. ie. when he was accused of blasphemy(making yourself out to be like God), and the religious leaders threatened to stone him, Jesus flatly denied the charge by pointing out that he only ever claimed to be God's son(no more no less).

Would you give me the passage where Jesus says that?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 30, 2013, 12:57:32 am
Quote
I think you'll find that the answer to this would depend on what is meant by the term "deity" ie. if it meant that Jesus was a heavenly spirit being who resided with his Father before the world was, then no. Jesus would not have denied this. In fact, this was the very point he was making when he claimed that he existed before Abraham.

Say what? That's a nice assertion, but that's all it is--an assertion. My exegesis on the passage is in the OP if you are interested.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: veka on July 30, 2013, 01:10:35 am
No matter how much evidence we have, some will refuse to believe. Their eyes are blinded by traditions of men.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 30, 2013, 04:45:06 am
Would you give me the passage where Jesus says that?

John 10:31-38
31 Then the Jews picked up stones again so that they could stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good deeds from the Father. For which one of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “We are not going to stone you concerning a good deed, but concerning blasphemy, and because you, although you* are a man, make yourself to be God!” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If he called them ‘gods’ to whom the word of God came—and the scripture cannot be broken—36 do you say about he whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the deeds of my Father, do not believe me. 38 But if I am doing them,* even if you do not believe me, believe the deeds, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” 39 So they were seeking again to seize him, and he departed out of their hand.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: anuts on July 30, 2013, 04:55:57 am
Perhaps He thought it not important enough for people to get that right?
I think you'll find that the answer to this would depend on what is meant by the term "deity" ie. if it meant that Jesus was a heavenly spirit being who resided with his Father before the world was, then no. Jesus would not have denied this. In fact, this was the very point he was making when he claimed that he existed before Abraham.

It should be of significance that we're dealing with a people who were/are monotheistic. That alone should narrow down the term "deity." If, then, perhaps you may make some distinction between God and then God-like; but I don't believe you believe deity to be the latter case either. If so, then I must ask:
Do you believe Jesus would equivocate His answer to this charge?
Do you believe Jesus believed this charge was too ambiguous?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 30, 2013, 05:04:35 am
...That alone should narrow down the term "deity."
Does the Bible even attribute the word "deity" to Jesus?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: anuts on July 30, 2013, 05:27:42 am
...That alone should narrow down the term "deity."
Does the Bible even attribute the word "deity" to Jesus?

In the sense that it uses the word "deity?" No. The Bible does not use the word "deity" as far as I recall. Which, I believe to be the same amount of times it uses the word monotheist.

And if it's true that the Bible does not have the word "deity" in it then it would also be the same number of times it's used to attribute to the Father.

Surely you meant something else (forgive me for not following if so).

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 30, 2013, 06:24:20 am
Surely you meant something else (forgive me for not following if so).

I'm thinking the word is derived from "divinity" which is applied to Jesus. That being said, with reference to the charge(see: making yourself to be God), it would appear as though Jesus was appealing to his divinity(see: from heaven) rather than deity as many people like to argue.

Then again... there seems to be a fine line between a divine being, elohim or mighty ones, and so there's that to consider as well.  Though I'd caution against such things given that it can lead people astray in terms of worship as many people do not seem to accept that other gods(elohim) can and do exist according to the Bible.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Stephen on July 30, 2013, 06:58:00 am
If you could clarify for me, then, who hears the prayer?

Sorry Maxx, almost missed this!

Well, they all literally would hear the prayer, necessarily.


No worries! :)


Problem is, Psalm 65:2 explicitly states only The Father, Jehovah God hears - and, consequently, responds to - prayers. (Compare with Psalm 145:18; Deuteronomy 4:7; 1 Kings 18:36)

AAQ is right in his point; I wouldn't deny the Father God hears prayer- my analysis in fact depends upon it.  But certainly that passage does not explicitly say he is the "only" one that hears prayer.  That he might be the only one to actually answer prayer is consistent still with my analysis.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Stephen on July 30, 2013, 07:22:34 am
...That alone should narrow down the term "deity."
Does the Bible even attribute the word "deity" to Jesus?

Colossians 2:9
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 07:48:15 am
Perhaps He thought it not important enough for people to get that right?
I think you'll find that the answer to this would depend on what is meant by the term "deity" ie. if it meant that Jesus was a heavenly spirit being who resided with his Father before the world was, then no. Jesus would not have denied this. In fact, this was the very point he was making when he claimed that he existed before Abraham.

It should be of significance that we're dealing with a people who were/are monotheistic.
And unitarian.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 30, 2013, 08:08:02 am
Colossians 2:9


New International Version (http://biblehub.com/niv/colossians/2.htm)For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

New Living Translation (http://biblehub.com/nlt/colossians/2.htm)For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.

English Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/esv/colossians/2.htm)For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

New American Standard Bible  (http://biblehub.com/nasb/colossians/2.htm)For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

King James Bible (http://biblehub.com/kjv/colossians/2.htm)For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (http://biblehub.com/hcsb/colossians/2.htm)For the entire fullness of God's nature dwells bodily in Christ,

International Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/isv/colossians/2.htm)because all the essence of deity inhabits him in bodily form.

NET Bible (http://biblehub.com/net/colossians/2.htm)For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (http://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/colossians/2.htm)For all The Fullness of The Deity dwells in him bodily.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (http://biblehub.com/gwt/colossians/2.htm)All of God lives in Christ's body,

King James 2000 Bible (http://biblehub.com/kj2000/colossians/2.htm)For in him dwells all the fullness of the Deity bodily.

American King James Version (http://biblehub.com/akjv/colossians/2.htm)For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

American Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/asv/colossians/2.htm)for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

Douay-Rheims Bible (http://biblehub.com/drb/colossians/2.htm)For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally;

Darby Bible Translation (http://biblehub.com/dbt/colossians/2.htm)For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily;

English Revised Version (http://biblehub.com/erv/colossians/2.htm)for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

Webster's Bible Translation (http://biblehub.com/wbt/colossians/2.htm)For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Weymouth New Testament (http://biblehub.com/wey/colossians/2.htm)For it is in Christ that the fulness of God's nature dwells embodied, and in Him you are made complete,

World English Bible (http://biblehub.com/web/colossians/2.htm)For in him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily,

Young's Literal Translation (http://biblehub.com/ylt/colossians/2.htm)because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 30, 2013, 09:37:17 am
Perhaps He thought it not important enough for people to get that right?
I think you'll find that the answer to this would depend on what is meant by the term "deity" ie. if it meant that Jesus was a heavenly spirit being who resided with his Father before the world was, then no. Jesus would not have denied this. In fact, this was the very point he was making when he claimed that he existed before Abraham.

It should be of significance that we're dealing with a people who were/are monotheistic.
And unitarian.

False.  The Jewish people at the time of Jesus weren't unitarian.  I've documented that in the OP quite a bit.  Feel free to actually read it.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 30, 2013, 05:13:12 pm
Probably back tracking here.

Previously people have said that Jesus was worshiped and accepted worship, some have said Jesus directed all worship to the Father.

This passage came across on my daily scripture thingy on my phone.

Philippians 2:10-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

The bolded part intrigued me. Knowing that some people believe Jesus was not worshiped and directed all worship to the Father, I wanted to know if bowing down is an act of worship? So found some scriptures to look into this further.


Exodus 20:2-6 
“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.  

The above states not to bow down to false Gods, but we bow down to Jesus in the Philippians verse.

The following is an act of bowing down to God in worship.

Psalm 95:6
5The sea is His, for it was He who made it, And His hands formed the dry land. 6Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker. 7For He is our God, And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you would hear His voice,…

I found scripture where people came to worship Jesus.


Matthew 2:2
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Matthew 2:8
8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”

Matthew 2:11
11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 28:9
9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

Matthew 4:8
8 Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship me.”

10 “Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say,


‘You must worship the Lord your God
    and serve only him.’

The above is interesting, it is correct in that Jesus directed worship towards God alone and the act of bowing down is an act of worship. Yet we have scripture above where there are examples of this act directed towards Jesus.

Examples where bowing down is frowned upon.

Acts 25:26
25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

Revelation 22:8-9
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

So in a nutshell, is bowing down worshiping? Is it worshiping in every case, or in some cases.

The above God says you shall not bow down to any other gods. Philippians tells us we will bow down to Jesus. Scripture has people bowing down to Jesus. Scripture has examples of servants refusing worship.

Is the act of bowing down worship?

To me it seems like it is, and if we can only bow down to God, yet do this same act towards Jesus, what would the obvious conclusion be?




Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: False Entity on July 30, 2013, 05:57:16 pm
Thanks for the scriptures AAQ and Snoochies!  :)

I came across this and thought it was interesting.

The Ontological Argument for a Triune God

 Click here  (http://messianicdrew.blogspot.com/2011/03/ontological-argument-for-triune-god.html)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 30, 2013, 07:42:42 pm
...every knee should bow,...

Quote
I wanted to know if bowing down is an act of worship?

I know some will think I'm being picky here but... if you look closely,  you'll notice that the account in Philippians depicts a  bowing of the knee and not bowing down. Which is reminiscent of an act of respect before a king or person of authority on earth(though some would prostrate themselves completely).

Having said that, the Bible often makes use of the term worship in various instances; ie. worshiping God, bowing down before a person or authority or prostration etc. And so it's in the context that we would find the meaning behind  the action. Along these same lines, the fact that Jesus himself bowed down in prayer to his God pretty much seals the deal in terms of who is worshiping who as there can be no two God's worthy of worship from scripture. And so that leaves no alternatives but to conclude that all cases of worship other than directed toward the Father(YHWH) were not in form of worshiping the One True God. - Otherwise, we end enter the realm of polytheism and/or false worship.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 30, 2013, 07:49:03 pm
Quote from: JohnBee
Along these same lines, the fact that Jesus himself bowed down in prayer to his God pretty much seals the deal in terms of who is worshiping who as there can be no two God's worthy of worship from scripture. And so that leaves no alternatives but to conclude that all cases of worship other than directed toward the Father(YHWH) were not in form of worshiping the One True God. - Otherwise, we end enter the realm of polytheism and/or false worship.

This is just a strawman that anybody who understands Trinitarian thought can see immediately.  We don't say that the Father and the Son are two separate gods and thus end up in polytheism.  We say they are the same God, but different persons.  Thus, that argument makes no sense at all.

And here's my comments on Phil. 2.10-11:

Quote
   “10so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,11and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (NWT)
  Phil. 2.10-11 is also an important point. It is obviously a reference back to Isa. 45.23.  Interestingly enough, that grouping of Isaiah is part of the most monotheistic passages in all of the OT and that specific text is talking about YHWH.  Thus, Paul is applying a YHWH text to Jesus and thus indicating that He is God.  The fact that it is to the glory of the God the Father does not in any way change this point.  In fact, if Paul had not put that then he would have seemingly been playing Jesus and the Father off against one another.  Thus, by putting that clause Paul shows that a YHWH text can be applied to Jesus and that Jesus and the Father aren't separate gods.  It therefore follows that Phil. 2.10-11 shows that Jesus is God also.

Any interpretation which says that Phil. 2.10-11 isn't worship must apply the same thing to Isaiah 45.23, which is absurd.  Also, it says every knee will bow, not every other knee.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 30, 2013, 08:05:03 pm
...every knee should bow,...

Quote
I wanted to know if bowing down is an act of worship?

I know some will think I'm being picky here but... if you look closely,  you'll notice that the account in Philippians depicts a  bowing of the knee and not bowing down. Which is reminiscent of an act of respect before a king or person of authority on earth(though some would prostrate themselves completely).

Having said that, the Bible often makes use of the term worship in various instances; ie. worshiping God, bowing down before a person or authority or prostration etc. And so it's in the context that we would find the meaning behind  the action. Along these same lines, the fact that Jesus himself bowed down in prayer to his God pretty much seals the deal in terms of who is worshiping who as there can be no two God's worthy of worship from scripture. And so that leaves no alternatives but to conclude that all cases of worship other than directed toward the Father(YHWH) were not in form of worshiping the One True God. - Otherwise, we end enter the realm of polytheism and/or false worship.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Johnbee.

Psalm 95:6 has both referenced towards God. Bow and kneel before the Lord.

5The sea is His, for it was He who made it, And His hands formed the dry land. 6Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker. 7For He is our God, And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you would hear His voice,…

In Matthew 4:8 Satan himself asks Jesus to kneel before him and worship him.

8 Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship me.”

Also what are your thoughts on the direct passages in Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:8, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9 where it says they directly worshiped Jesus.

Cheers
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 30, 2013, 08:39:09 pm
Quote from: Asking_A_Question link=topic=6022196.msg1275167123#msg1275167123
This is just a strawman that anybody who understands Trinitarian thought can see immediately.  We don't say that the Father and the Son are two separate gods and thus end up in polytheism.  We say they are the same God, but different persons.  Thus, that argument makes no sense at all.
Since it is YHWH Alone that we should worship, are you implying that we would worship a God who he himself has a God?

I don't think we have to look hard to see that there are some serious issues surrounding such reasoning. ie. We worship Jehovah God and He alone. We do not however worship demi-gods or lesser gods in any way shape or form. Whereas what you're suggesting is that we worship a god who is not almighty at all as this god clearly served and worshiped the same God we did. And so for me this is a dead end I'm afraid.

And I want to put out there that you are of course entitled to your own beliefs and or position on matters. Though from where I stand, I don't see any way to circumvent the implications brought about by the notion that Jesus is to be worshiped against the scripture.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 30, 2013, 08:44:20 pm
Again, this is just a misunderstanding on your part.  On my view (and I laid this out in the OP), Jesus is both God and man.  Thus, Jesus was a Jewish man (surprise, surprise, right?).  Hence, to fulfill the Law perfectly and die in our place it would have been idolatry not to worship the Father as a Jewish man. 

Seriously, throwing around words like demi-god and implying that we don't think Jesus is God in the same way that the Father or the Holy Spirit are God, is just absolutely absurd.  Let's not be so silly by strawmanning other's views.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 30, 2013, 08:51:15 pm
Thanks Psalm 95:6 has both referenced towards God. Bow and kneel before the Lord.
Indeed it does. Though in this case(context wise), the account goes-on to specify that the kneeling down is intended with worshiping God(YHWH).

Quote
In Matthew 4:8 Satan himself asks Jesus to kneel before him and worship him.
In this account the context isn't quite as obvious. Though it is becomes clarified when Jesus quotes the OT passage stating that it is Jehovah alone that we should worship. However, what's interesting in this particular account is that Satan was asking Jesus to follow through with an act of submission toward him. ie. Satan being the God of this world. At which point, Jesus goes-on to attribute all things to his God and Father YHWH. And so I find this particular passage to be an exception to the rule as I think Jesus was actually rebuking and schooling Satan by informing him as to who's side he was on, and more importantly... where his loyalties lay.

Matthew 2:2: prostration homage
Matthew 2:8: homage
Matthew 2:11: homage
Matthew 28:9: homage

All of the accounts pertaining to worshiping Jesus while on earth can only be something other than, "Godly worship". And the reason for this is simply where there is no way to reconcile with the commandment that we are to worship Jehovah/YHWH and him alone. To which I'd add, Jesus was no Jehovah while he was on earth(see: Almighty). Which stands in spite of the fact that he was in perfect unity with his Father(YHWH/Jehovah).

And so from what I can see, the issue is a clear cut one. We follow the Bible commandments and everything works out perfectly. However, if/when we deviate, the Bible proves to get messy/contradictory/confusing etc. ie. the Trinity
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 30, 2013, 08:53:53 pm
Again, this is just a misunderstanding on your part.  On my view (and I laid this out in the OP), Jesus is both God and man.  Thus, Jesus was a Jewish man (surprise, surprise, right?).  Hence, to fulfill the Law perfectly and die in our place it would have been idolatry not to worship the Father as a Jewish man.
From where I stand: Jesus was not Almighty, end of story.
And unless you can show that the man/Jesus was Almighty(while he was on earth), then we have nothing to justify breaking commandments. - strawman or not.

And that's my take on things.  - I follow the Bible and take no interest in such deviations myself.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 30, 2013, 09:00:17 pm
Quote from: JohnBee
All of the accounts pertaining to worshiping Jesus while on earth can only be something other than, Godly worship. And the reason for this is simply where there is no way to reconcile with the commandment that we are to worship Jehovah/YHWH and him alone.

Thanks for saying this so clearly.  You start with this presupposition and then interpret the whole bible in light of it.  To put it another way, you assume Unitarianism and then declare that Trinitarianism is not taught because of your assumption.  That's the whole problem.

Quote
From where I stand: Jesus was not Almighty, end of story.
And unless you can show that the man/Jesus was Almighty(while he was on earth), then we have nothing to justify breaking commandments. - strawman or not.

And that's my take on things.
I follow the Bible and take no interest in deviations myself.

Again, let me quote what I said to you earlier:

Quote
So let's see if I have this right.  The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all share the same essence (Matt. 28.19).  Jesus shares the same nature as the Father (John 1.1).  He did not come into existence; He's eternal (John 1.3).  He is God's glorious presence in the flesh (John 1.14).  The lack of an article and theos is used for both the Father and Jesus (John 1.18).  He applies Exodus 3.14 to Himself (John 8.58).  Isaiah saw His glory and spoke about Him which is a reference to where Isaiah saw YHWH (John 12.41).  He is called Lord and God by Thomas and approves (John 20.28-29).  He has equality with the Father (Phil. 2.6).  A YHWH text is applied to Him (Phil. 2.11).  A passage about YHWH and about something that only YHWH does is applied to Him (Heb. 1.10-12).  And Jesus is included in the most famous monotheistic passage from the Old Testament which is about Israel's God (1 Cor. 8.6).  However, that just doesn't quite show that Jesus is God.  Seriously?

The problem is you start with your presupposition of Unitarianism and then want us to show that the Bible teaches Trinitarianism when that is unacceptable to you because of your presupposition.  That's not taking the Bible as it is but how you want it to be.  It should be very telling for you that the question in academic biblical scholarship isn't about whether the Bible teaches whether Jesus is God, but how early it does so (at least Phil. 2 according to the vast majority of scholars).  That's because they don't start with presuppositions that are wholly ungrounded like you are doing.  Hence, you can try to claim that you follow the bible all you want, but all you are doing is interpreting the bible to fit your preconceived notions and that's quite a problem.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 30, 2013, 09:07:50 pm
Quote
Matthew 2:11: homage


Matthew 2:11
11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

Quote
Indeed it does. Though in this case(context wise), the account goes-on to specify that the kneeling down is intended with worshiping God(YHWH).


Psalm 95:6
5The sea is His, for it was He who made it, And His hands formed the dry land. 6Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker. 7For He is our God, And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you would hear His voice,…

How do I explain this to someone whom I hand a Bible to. How do you think they would read it.

In both instances, there is bowing down and worshiping. On one instance it's homage, in another instance it's actual worship.

Would you honestly be ok with someone bowing down and worshiping the Pope for them to say it's just homage?

I guess that is a literal question, can someone bow down and worship the Pope? Why or why not?

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 30, 2013, 09:15:34 pm
... but all you are doing is interpreting the bible to fit your preconceived notions and that's quite a problem.
This could hold if you actually knew my religious path and history. But I think we both know this isn't the case and so I really don't see any meaningful substance in that critique whatsoever.

Whatever the case, as I stated earlier. You are of course entitled to your own choices on matters. Though from where I stand, I see no way to reconcile with the Trinitarian model without compromising on scripture in some way of another. And so for me, the issue a closed one. Though that doesn't mean I won't challenge or share my views whenever the opportunity presents itself. To which I'd add, I do entirely out of compassion for my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. IOW. people need to know that controversial beliefs such as the Trinity are not the only option when it comes to worship God in truth(as Jesus taught).
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 30, 2013, 09:22:39 pm
That's exactly what your own words say.

Also, I don't think one can reject God's self-revelation and be a Christian. Also, it's only controversial to those who start with Unitarian presuppositions, as is quite clear to readers.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 30, 2013, 09:23:35 pm
Matthew 2:11: homage

Consider the following:

Young's Literal Translation (http://biblehub.com/ylt/matthew/2.htm)
and having come to the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and having fallen down they bowed to him, and having opened their treasures, they presented to him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh,

Weymouth New Testament (http://biblehub.com/wey/matthew/2.htm)
He then directed them to go to Bethlehem, adding, "Go and make careful inquiry about the child, and when you have found him, bring me word, that I too may come and do him homage."

Darby Bible Translation (http://biblehub.com/dbt/matthew/2.htm)
and having sent them to Bethlehem, said, Go, search out accurately concerning the child, and when ye shall have found him bring me back word, so that I also may come and do him homage.

Quote
Would you honestly be ok with someone bowing down and worshiping the Pope for them to say it's just homage?[
I think part of the issue here pertains to the type of social behaviors of that time. ie. it was common for people to fall to the ground before others as the Bible so often speaks of. Whereas we really don't see much of this behavior in our time and place today.

However, if someone were to bow down and pay homage to the Pope(as you yourself say) which in turn was called worship, then I'd say this was perfectly acceptable in much the same way a person would bow down before a King(see: falling to the ground, not looking etc).

Quote
I guess that is a literal question, can someone bow down and worship the Pope? Why or why not?
I'd say: Yes. so long as it doesn't imply worshiping said person as God(see: YHWH shares His glory with no one).

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 09:28:15 pm
Perhaps He thought it not important enough for people to get that right?
I think you'll find that the answer to this would depend on what is meant by the term "deity" ie. if it meant that Jesus was a heavenly spirit being who resided with his Father before the world was, then no. Jesus would not have denied this. In fact, this was the very point he was making when he claimed that he existed before Abraham.

It should be of significance that we're dealing with a people who were/are monotheistic.
And unitarian.

False.  The Jewish people at the time of Jesus weren't unitarian.  I've documented that in the OP quite a bit.  Feel free to actually read it.
Since when do the opinions of mere men - scholarly or not - vitiate Jehovah's God's own expressed demands?



"God is only one." -Galatians 3:20


"Jehovah will prove to be one." -Zechariah 14:9


"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us?" -Malachi 2:10


"Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah'."" -Mark 12:29


All these passages make the issue abundantly pellucid. Pre and post Christian witnesses of Jehovah worshipped a Unitarian God because this is what he himself ordained.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 30, 2013, 09:30:00 pm
Literally none of those teach Unitarianism. They all teach monotheism only.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 09:31:34 pm
Probably back tracking here.

Previously people have said that Jesus was worshiped and accepted worship, some have said Jesus directed all worship to the Father.

This passage came across on my daily scripture thingy on my phone.

Philippians 2:10-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

The bolded part intrigued me. Knowing that some people believe Jesus was not worshiped and directed all worship to the Father, I wanted to know if bowing down is an act of worship?
Jesus may have received proskyneō (προσκυνέω) but NEVER latreuō (λατρεύω). What's the difference?


Thayer and Smith - "The New Testament Greek Lexicon" defines this Greek term προσκυνέω (pronounced: pros-koo-neh'-o) as:


(1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence


(2). among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence


(3). in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication


(3).a. used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank -


(3).a.1 to the Jewish high priests
(3).a.2 to God
(3).a.3 to Christ
(3).a.4 to heavenly beings
(3).a.5 to demons


For instance, at John 4:23,24 προσκυνέω is translated "worship" by RSV, YLT, LIT, NJB, NIV, & NEB. However at Matthew 18:26 and Revelation 3:9 they all translate it "bow down." These translators recognize the range of meaning and are perfectly within the bounds of correct translation principles to render it as "worship" when given to God and "bowing down" when given to someone else.


In the Bible προσκυνέω is given to men also - Matthew 18:26; Genesis 33:3,6,7; Exodus 18:7; 1 Samuel 20:42; 24:9. According to Revelation 3:9 Christians will be "worshiped" (KJV Revelation 3:9).


Now, the question is - Since all these humans were "worshiped" does it mean that they were equal to Almighty Jehovah God?




On the other hand, λατρεύω (pronounced: lat-ryoo'-o) denotes the highest worship that is ONLY given to Almighty God. And at Luke 4:8 Jesus himself made it clear that ONLY his God Jehovah was to receive "sacred worship" or λατρεύω:


"And Jesus answered him: "Scripture says—'Thou shalt do homage (προσκυνέω) to the Lord thy God, and worship (λατρεύω) him only.'"--20TH Century NT


"The Lord thy God, shalt thou worship (προσκυνέω), and, unto him alone, render divine service (λατρεύω)."--Rotherham's


"Thou shalt bow (προσκυνέω) before the Lord thy God, and Him only thou shalt serve (λατρεύω).'"--Young's Literal Translation




λατρεύω, which denotes the ultimate sacred worship, is NEVER given to Jesus. True worshipers never give it to anyone other than the Most High God Jehovah.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 09:39:03 pm
Quote from: JohnBee
Along these same lines, the fact that Jesus himself bowed down in prayer to his God pretty much seals the deal in terms of who is worshiping who as there can be no two God's worthy of worship from scripture. And so that leaves no alternatives but to conclude that all cases of worship other than directed toward the Father(YHWH) were not in form of worshiping the One True God. - Otherwise, we end enter the realm of polytheism and/or false worship.
We don't say that the Father and the Son are two separate gods and thus end up in polytheism.
You've made it clear your fairy-tale "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" are not found anywhere in Scripture.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 30, 2013, 09:40:23 pm
Feel free to read the OP big guy. :)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 30, 2013, 09:44:13 pm
It's starting to feel like I need to be a Biblical scholar, theologian and have a masters in Greek interpretation to understand the basic concept of God.

What hope have I to spread the gospel to my friends when the word God has differing meanings, the term worship has 2 different meanings.

What I am reading above is you can worship God and Jesus, but both receive a different kind of worship. What I read is that Jehovah is God Almighty and Jesus is a Mighty God, whom can be both worshiped, but Jehovah God is worshiped differently to Mighty God / Jesus.

I read that God says not to bow down to any other God yet in the same breath we can bow down to Mighty God Jesus as long as we don't worship him as Almighty God, only mighty God.

I read we shall have one God but read we can also have Mighty God Jesus.

What hope is there for anyone when we have to go into so much detail as to understand Greek itself to understand the Gospel because without knowing the original Greek, we will all somehow not understand the message.

Surely........surely God has not made it that hard for us to understand the Gospel that we have to play mental gymnastics to get our head around it.

I'm off to worship the Pope! What does that mean?  :-\
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 09:45:28 pm
On my view (and I laid this out in the OP), Jesus is both God and man. 
Were not interested in your philosophical opinions only God's truth as expressed in his recorded word, The Bible.


“Do not go beyond the things that are written.” - 1 Corinthians 4:6


"Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain+ in the teaching of the Christ does not have God." -2 John 9


Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 09:49:04 pm
Literally none of those teach Unitarianism. They all teach monotheism only.
Argumentum assertio. You’ve done nothing to dispel the arguments presented by Scripture nor the facts that support them. Try again.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 30, 2013, 09:50:21 pm
Exactly. And that's what the bible teaches!

Also, feel free to read the OP which discusses Deuteronomy 6.4-5. The others fall in line as they are allusions to it.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 10:11:29 pm
It's starting to feel like I need to be a Biblical scholar, theologian and have a masters in Greek interpretation to understand the basic concept of God.
Not at all. A good place to start, as John Bee has skillfully demonstrated, is with an accurate translation of the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek Scriptures. A lot of the confusion you're experiencing is easily dismissed when you read a faithful translation of God's thoughts into your native tongue.


Next, identify, locate and worship only alongside authentic Christians. You can only learn truth from those who glorify God by living in harmony with the truth.
Quote
I read that God says not to bow down to any other God yet in the same breath we can bow down to Mighty God Jesus as long as we don't worship him as Almighty God, only mighty God.

 
Jehovah God has ordained that we respect, honor, obey, love and emulate Christ Jesus.

On the other hand, Christ Jesus has instructed that we must render sacred service, pay homage to, pledge allegiance to, revere and venerate his God and Creator, Jehovah.

For example, we should only direct our supplications, entreaties and plaudits to Jehovah God for only he is the Hearer or Prayer. (Psalm 65:2) We must glorify Jehovah God by obeying his laws. This means doing our utmost to be chaste, holy and loving. This also means we must teach those seeking God how to develop a close, personal relationship with him. In other words, we need to show these - using God's Word (not the convoluted philosophies of men) and with our fine example how they must glorify their Creator, the Most High, the Sovereign Lord, The Father, Jehovah God.

See the difference?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 30, 2013, 10:14:13 pm
It's starting to feel like I need to be a Biblical scholar, theologian and have a masters in Greek interpretation to understand the basic concept of God.

My take on this is, if I can learn, anyone can learn... :)

Thing of it is, the word worship is not the only term in the Bible to be used differently in our day. And so to that I'd say, you are well on your way to knowing better. As for the Almighty, Mighty and gods per say(elohim etc) I'd say the best approach to take is to put Jesus' teachings first and foremost and everything will work out just fine. Keeping in mind that Jesus worshiped no one(Holy spirit etc) but his Father(YHWH). And so you really have nothing to worry about. Just follow his lead and everything will be A-OK. 

And you don't have to take my word for it(who am I to say). All you have to do, is ask God for direction, read the Bible(cover to cover) and He will show you the way. True worship needn't be as complicated as people often portrait it to be. One God, one worship. No more, no less, just as Jesus taught.

All this fancy-shmancy extra curricular stuff, it's great for discussions(no doubt), but completely irrelevant when it comes to upholding Jesus' teachings and commandments. Theistic evolution, God's nature etc. all very entertaining, but we should never let it stumble us. The buck stops there if/when it causes us to deviate from the Bible commandments and into the hands of men(see: man-made doctrine).
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 30, 2013, 10:16:38 pm
Snoochies,

Just because people want to twist the clear teaching of the bible, that doesn't mean it isn't true and clear. When people have to claim that all of the scholars are wrong and only their people and their translation is right, that's when you know they are in trouble. Notice that my exegesis conforms with the plain teaching, I just had to show that the plain teaching is plain.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 10:17:25 pm
feel free to read the OP which discusses Deuteronomy 6.4-5.
Again, nobody's interested in your philosophical musings nor those of the individuals you cite only in what the Bible actually teaches. Try again.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 30, 2013, 10:19:09 pm
Again, feel free to read the OP big guy.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: GotTheGift on July 30, 2013, 10:21:17 pm
feel free to read the OP which discusses Deuteronomy 6.4-5.
Again, nobody's interested in your philosophical musings nor those of the individuals you cite only in what the Bible actually teaches. Try again.

Speak for yourself, Max.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 30, 2013, 10:28:58 pm
Thanks.

At the end of the day, I've been a follower of Christ for 10 years now. I have com eout of Bi-Polar disorder and God has really changed my life ALOT. I do surround myself with faithful Christians who have helped me and have helped many people come to know the God I love and follow.

I look to Christ first, as I can't bypass him to get to the Father, I see Christ, I see the Father, he is the one that bridges that gap and through him I am able to receive the Holy Spirit.

I'm not the brightest when it comes to theology. I know I would not know the Father without Christ, he interceded on my behalf.

My main focus in life is not nailing down a Trinitarian view, or wether Jesus was really Michael, or wether he was a demi god that I can worship in a different way to worshiping the Father, my focus is doing what Jesus did, and yes it is correct in what many say, that is to direct my worship towards the Father. My purpose is to share this Christ with others, to let others know what he has done in my life, how it has changed and how he can help change others.

I'm not going to understand it all, and I never will. But maybe there is more important work to be done and many lives that can be changed but might not be if I sit at the cross roads wondering what the difference is between worshiping Jesus and worshiping the Pope is?

I don't think God meant for us to know everything and only then are we saved.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 10:59:33 pm
Thanks.

At the end of the day, I've been a follower of Christ for 10 years now. I have com eout of Bi-Polar disorder and God has really changed my life ALOT. I do surround myself with faithful Christians who have helped me and have helped many people come to know the God I love and follow.

I look to Christ first, as I can't bypass him to get to the Father, I see Christ, I see the Father, he is the one that bridges that gap and through him I am able to receive the Holy Spirit.

I'm not the brightest when it comes to theology. I know I would not know the Father without Christ, he interceded on my behalf.

My main focus in life is not nailing down a Trinitarian view, or wether Jesus was really Michael, or wether he was a demi god that I can worship in a different way to worshiping the Father, my focus is doing what Jesus did, and yes it is correct in what many say, that is to direct my worship towards the Father. My purpose is to share this Christ with others, to let others know what he has done in my life, how it has changed and how he can help change others.

I'm not going to understand it all, and I never will. But maybe there is more important work to be done and many lives that can be changed but might not be if I sit at the cross roads wondering what the difference is between worshiping Jesus and worshiping the Pope is?

I don't think God meant for us to know everything and only then are we saved.
I think I can appreciate your circumstances since - while I do not suffer from Bi-Polar Disorder - I've come horrifyingly close to taking my life on more than one occasion as a result of my two decade long battle with Major Depressive Disorder I incurred as a result of a TBI.


That said, there's no reason why you too can't “thoroughly [] grasp mentally [] what is the breadth and length and height and depth and to know [] that [they] may be filled with all the fullness that God gives.” (Ephesians 3:18,19) (Brackets mine.)


Remember, "God is not a God of confusion" - 1 Corinthians 14:33 (RSV) Recall as well that Jesus commanded, “You must love Jehovah your God [] with your whole mind.’” (Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27) (Brackets mine.)


The fact is that, “not many wise in a fleshly way were called, not many powerful, not many of noble birth; but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put the wise men to shame.” (1 Corinthians 1:26-28) Think back, if you would, to the types of men Jesus chose to be his apostles? Were they the scholars, brain trusts and learned of their time? No. They were simple men; “unlettered and ordinary.” (Acts 4:13)


Why is this such a salient fact? Because if these simple, ordinary men were to obey and 'love Jehovah with their **whole** mind' then they had to **understand** what they were being taught. (Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27) (Emphasis mine.) Hence, the need for logic and reasonableness. In fact, 1st century Christians were admonished to understand, to “thoroughly [] grasp mentally [] what is the breadth and length and height and depth and to know [] that [they] may be filled with all the fullness that God gives.” (Ephesians 3:18,19) (Brackets mine.)


The residents of the ancient city of Beroea, for example, were praised and set as an example for all of us because, when Paul and Silas went to teach them truth, these 'carefully examined the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.' (Acts 17:11) Did Paul criticize them because they tried to reason things out? Did he tell them that their investigation was unnecessary because absolute truth was simply unattainable? Not at all. In fact, he **encouraged** them to make sense of things and wasn't afraid of their scrutiny of what he was teaching them. Why? Because "God is not a God of confusion." As such, they too needed to 'love Jehovah with their **whole** mind'. (1 Corinthians 14:33;Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27) (Emphasis mine.)


In fact, with soooo many people running around sharing their subjective opinions on what Biblical truth is, now more than ever, it is imperative that we “not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.” (1 John 4:1)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 11:09:46 pm
feel free to read the OP which discusses Deuteronomy 6.4-5.
Again, nobody's interested in your philosophical musings nor those of the individuals you cite only in what the Bible actually teaches. Try again.

Speak for yourself, Max.
And with that you too show how divine prophecy is accurately fulfilled: "For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories." -2 Timothy 4:3,4



Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 30, 2013, 11:19:18 pm
Max, you might like my testimony.

Read it here, scroll down the page a little.
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/the-ultimate-testimony-thread-6021963.0.html (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/the-ultimate-testimony-thread-6021963.0.html)

This is what I share. I want you to read it and let me know if what I am sharing is not of God and is false. I can honestly say I haven't been confused by the gospel. Sure there are things I don't understand but I don't believe I have preached a false gospel. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I pray for you in your battle with depression. I have been free from Bi-Polar for over 10 years, the man I was back then is a far cry from the man I am now. :)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 11:35:16 pm

I pray for you in your battle with depression. I have been free from Bi-Polar for over 10 years, the man I was back then is a far cry from the man I am now. :)
That's wonderful! You have no idea how happy I am for you!!! :D Suffice it to say, I envy you my friend! I can't tell you how much I look forward to the day when I will finally be free of this curse.


Still, I can't deny, Jehovah God has made use of this "thorn in my flesh" to reach those who wouldn't be able to be reached otherwise. Still gives me chills when I think about it, hehe  he he :) (2 Corinthians 12:7; 1:3-7)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 30, 2013, 11:49:09 pm

I pray for you in your battle with depression. I have been free from Bi-Polar for over 10 years, the man I was back then is a far cry from the man I am now. :)
That's wonderful! You have no idea how happy I am for you!!! :D Suffice it to say, I envy you my friend! I can't tell you how much I look forward to the day when I will finally be free of this curse.


Still, I can't deny, Jehovah God has made use of this "thorn in my flesh" to reach those who wouldn't be able to be reached otherwise. Still gives me chills when I think about it, hehe  he he :) (2 Corinthians 12:7; 1:3-7)

Thanks Max. I pray that you really do receive and understand the freedom that Christ can give you. Don't believe your depression is from God, definitely not, but know in Christ you can be set free. God takes our weaknesses, struggles and hardships and turns them into something that can give him glory.

I often ask now do I wish I never had bi-polar? Looking back, where would I be without it?

I understand what it feels like to have the shackles tied around you. The moment those chains left me was at a moment of surrender. Until I gave up all of me to Christ, only then was he able to come in and release me from that hell.

I pray for you Max.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 12:11:16 am

I pray for you in your battle with depression. I have been free from Bi-Polar for over 10 years, the man I was back then is a far cry from the man I am now. :)
That's wonderful! You have no idea how happy I am for you!!! :D Suffice it to say, I envy you my friend! I can't tell you how much I look forward to the day when I will finally be free of this curse.


Still, I can't deny, Jehovah God has made use of this "thorn in my flesh" to reach those who wouldn't be able to be reached otherwise. Still gives me chills when I think about it, hehe  he he :) (2 Corinthians 12:7; 1:3-7)

I pray that you really do receive and understand the freedom that Christ can give you.
What ever makes you think I don't? :)


Were it not for Jehovah God's loving care and keeping, I'd be dead several times over  (http://bit.ly/y91Z6u):)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on July 31, 2013, 03:43:20 am
@ Max.

I don't doubt that Christ is with you, watches over you and loves you. But I also know the heavy chains and burdens that comes with depressive illness and from my own experience, I was never free, thats just me though. Can I ask if you are on anti depressants ?

If so I really pray that you can be free from not only the medication but free from the illness altogether, and I know Christ can do this in your life. You have a great testimony to share and help others who are going throuhh the same thing.

God bless :-)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 31, 2013, 06:26:27 am
Quote from: JohnBee
However... if by deity, we mean to say that Jesus is/was God, then I'd point-out that he most certainly denied such a thing. ie. when he was accused of blasphemy(making yourself out to be like God), and the religious leaders threatened to stone him, Jesus flatly denied the charge by pointing out that he only ever claimed to be God's son(no more no less).

You have redefined "flatly denied" here. It is clear that for Jesus "son of God" means far more than being in covenant relationship with God as with OT Israel. Elsewhere he is described as the unique/only begotten Son of God as has been stated many times in this forum.

So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jn 5:16-18 NIV

This is obviously more than what Jews would claim for themselves. The word here for "equal" can mean equal by amount or measure such as the dimensions of New Jerusalem and the same amounts received by the workers in the parable of the vineyard. There is no flat denial here but Jesus is pointing out (from Psalm 82) that beings lesser than Him (whether human judges or heavenly beings) are called "gods" (elohim) by the Psalmist. It is their accusation of blasphemy that is misplaced: Jesus is not denying his deity here.

Col 2:9 and "deity"
Rather than quote different versions look at the Greek: θεότητος or theotetos

Quote
theótēs (a feminine noun derived from 2316 /theós, "God") ... /theótēs ("fullness of deity") expresses God's "essential (personal) deity ... θεότης, θεότητος, ἡ (deitas, Tertullian, Augustine (de civ. Dei 7, 1)), deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead: Colossians 2:9. (Lucian, Icar. 9; Plutarch, de defect. orac. 10, p. 415 c.) [SYNONYMS: θεότης, θειότης: θεότης deity differs from θειότης divinity, as essence differs from quality or attribute; cf. Trench, § ii.; Lightfoot or Meyer on Colossians, the passage cited; Fritzsche on Romans 1:20.]

Quote
deity (n.)  "divine nature;" late 14c., "a god," from Old French deité, from Late Latin deitatem (nominative deitas) "divine nature," coined by Augustine from Latin deus "god," from PIE *deiwos (see Zeus).

Theos, deus, zeus etc. They're such similar words you'd be tempted to think that they refer to the same idea.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 31, 2013, 07:11:53 am
Jn 5:16-18 NIV
When the Jews accused Jesus of making himself equal to God, Jesus defended himself against the false charge in the very next verse(19); "the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing". And so I see no equality here either.

Quote
deity (n.)  "divine nature;" late 14c., "a god," from Old French deité, from Late Latin deitatem (nominative deitas) "divine nature," coined by Augustine from Latin deus "god," from PIE *deiwos (see Zeus).
I personally never argued against Jesus' divinity. Though the term is often taken out of context so as to advance the notion that Jesus is somehow equal to God in some way or another. Whereas in reality, all heavenly beings are divine in nature(just as Jesus is/was).
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 31, 2013, 07:27:16 am
JohnBee,
He said much more in that discourse:
Quote
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
Notice how the Father and the Son are repeatedly equated yet have different roles, Other examples of the use of "just as" are the Pharisee and the tax collector (the Pharisee thanking  God that he wasn't like the tax collector) and the tares of Mt 13 compared to final judgment. So there is a strong idea of equivalence in that word. Jesus is not backtracking but he is explaining his co-equal relationship with the Father.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on July 31, 2013, 07:51:26 am
Notice how the Father and the Son are repeatedly equated yet have different roles...
Yes, I saw that.
One is the God and Father, whereas the other is in complete subjection to said God and Father.

The problem with your presentation is that the quoted passages don't seem to relay all of the information within the account. ie. in your first post, you left out the part where Jesus stated that he couldn't do anything of his own accord. And the second, you again left out the part where Jesus admitted being given authority by his Father and again, his reaffirmation of doing nothing of his own will. And so again, I don't see this working in favor on a co-equality at all as it seems more along the lines of the opposite as Jesus seems to go out of his way to ensure that his accusers are aware that he is NOT claiming equality with GOD at all, but more importantly, assuming his role as the Son who is in full subjection to his God and Father.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Stephen on July 31, 2013, 08:04:20 am
Jesus assuming his role as Son may not however, necessarily preclude Jesus' co-equality of divine nature to the Father.  For consider: creation was done through the Jesus/the Son/The Word (John 1), no one gets to the Father except through Jesus (John 14:6, Ephesians 2:18, Hebrews 7:25), and it took the sacrifice of the person of Jesus himself to redeem mankind.  So we see here that there are things Jesus does that the Father does not do directly, but rather has done only in concert with the Son, whom is a distinct person.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on July 31, 2013, 08:22:08 am
The word λατρεία (latreia) basically means menial service, slave's work.  It was applied to those serving in the Temple, and from there it came to mean service of God.
Jesus came on earth to serve, not to be served, so of course during that period there was no λατρεία of Jesus.  In the end time there will be (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/trinity/the-trinity-is-it-biblical-6021376.msg1275160355.html#msg1275160355), though (follow the links I added in Edit remarks to get the full story without having to wade through Athanasian creed posts).
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 31, 2013, 08:38:06 am
JohnBee,
The "co equality" comes from the Greek word that is translated as "just as". You are using human judgment and prejudice to label the different roles of the Father and the Son as meaning the Son is inferior to the Father. The Greek here does not support you. New Jerusalem has the same length, width and height - there is no differentiation between these three dimensions.

[Note how even our familiar 3 dimensional world points to the Trinity  ;) ]

At least I didn't quote a single verse in #362 implying that was all Jesus said unlike you. Rather I quoted a fuller version starting with your verse, and not omitting any verses. If you want to quote more than feel free to do so but better if it were contiguous. I am fully confident that the Bible tells us that Jesus is fully God.

Where is the phrase "complete subjection" with regard to the Father and the Son apart from in your own head?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 31, 2013, 09:01:29 am
Yes it would be neat if the different Greek words rendered as "worship" in English were consistently directed at different beings but it doesn't work that way. Rather, as Biep says, they bring out different aspects of the concept. So proskuneo has the idea of a physical bowing or obeisance, latreuo has the idea of temple service, sebomai has the idea of awe - a mental attitude and eusebeo has the idea of to act piously.

The most common is proskuneo which is used for worship of the Father (e.g. Jn 4:21) and Jesus (e.g. Mt chap 2; Jn 9:38)

latreuo is used for worship of "God and the Lamb" in Rev 22:3.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 09:07:41 am
Proskuneo also seems to be a technical term in Matthew starting with the temptation of Jesus and finding a huge point when Jesus walks on the water (which recalls Job 9.8 ) and Jesus responding "ego eimi". I've presented my argument that Jesus is God from that passage multiple times with no response (much like this OP).
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 01:03:24 pm
@ Max.

Can I ask if you are on anti depressants ?

If so I really pray that you can be free from not only the medication but free from the illness altogether, and I know Christ can do this in your life. You have a great testimony to share and help others who are going throuhh the same thing.

God bless :-)
Thank you for your concern.


And, to answer your question, yes, I do take medications. Since my illness is the result of a TBI I will most likely be on medications for the rest of my life or until Paradise or until I get a new brain, whichever comes first, h eh ehehe :)


But that's ok. After all, the Apostle Paul was able to contend with his "thorn in the flesh" and so can I. In fact, "most gladly, therefore, will I rather boast as respects my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may like a tent remain over me. For when I am weak, then I am powerful." - 2 Corinthians 12:9,10
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 01:10:49 pm
Jesus assuming his role as Son may not however, necessarily preclude Jesus' co-equality of divine nature to the Father. 

Actually, that's exactly what that means since only The Father, Jehovah, is ontically God -


1 "There is actually to us one God the Father." - 1 Corinthians 8:6
2 "And now, O Jehovah, you are our Father." - Isaiah 64:8
3 "You, O Jehovah, are our Father." - Isaiah 63:16


4 "Is it to Jehovah that YOU keep doing this way, O people stupid and not wise? Is he not your Father[?]" - Deuteronomy 32:6
5 "You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”" - Revelation 4:11
6 "Do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One." - Matthew 23:9


7 "“Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us?" - Malachi 2:10
8 "Know that Jehovah is God." - Psalm 100:3
9 "Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living God." - Jeremiah 10:10
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 01:12:11 pm
None of those verses teach Unitarianism.  Idk how many times I have to tell you this.  Again, the only pertinent verses are based on Deut. 6.4-5 which I went over in the OP.  Feel free to actually read the OP.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Stephen on July 31, 2013, 01:13:39 pm
Jesus assuming his role as Son may not however, necessarily preclude Jesus' co-equality of divine nature to the Father. 

Actually, that's exactly what that means since only The Father, Jehovah, is ontically God -


1 "There is actually to us one God the Father." - 1 Corinthians 8:6
2 "And now, O Jehovah, you are our Father." - Isaiah 64:8
3 "You, O Jehovah, are our Father." - Isaiah 63:16


4 "Is it to Jehovah that YOU keep doing this way, O people stupid and not wise? Is he not your Father[?]" - Deuteronomy 32:6
5 "You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”" - Revelation 4:11
6 "Do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One." - Matthew 23:9


7 "“Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us?" - Malachi 2:10
8 "Know that Jehovah is God." - Psalm 100:3
9 "Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living God." - Jeremiah 10:10

None of those verses refute what I've said. 
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 01:23:59 pm
The word λατρεία (latreia) basically means menial service, slave's work.  It was applied to those serving in the Temple, and from there it came to mean service of God.
Jesus came on earth to serve, not to be served, so of course during that period there was no λατρεία of Jesus.  In the end time there will be (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/trinity/the-trinity-is-it-biblical-6021376.msg1275160355.html#msg1275160355), though (follow the links I added in Edit remarks to get the full story without having to wade through Athanasian creed posts).

Strong's Greek Dictionary by James Strong (1890)
3000 - λατρεύω (latreúō)
from λάτρις (látris) (a hired menial); to minister (to God), i.e. render religious homage
:--serve, do the service, worship(-per).


Greek-English lexicon by John Jeffrey Dodson (2010)
Lemma:   λατρεύω
Part of speech:   Verb
Long definition:   I serve, especially God, perhaps simply: I worship.


As I've already explicated, Christ has never receives λατρεύω. at Luke 4:8 Jesus himself made it clear that only his God Jehovah was to receive "sacred worship" or λατρεύω:


"And Jesus answered him: "Scripture says—'Thou shalt do homage (προσκυνέω) to the Lord thy God, and worship (λατρεύω) him only.'"--20TH Century NT


"The Lord thy God, shalt thou worship (προσκυνέω), and, unto him alone, render divine service (λατρεύω)."--Rotherham's


"Thou shalt bow (προσκυνέω) before the Lord thy God, and Him only thou shalt serve (λατρεύω).'"--Young's Literal Translation




Concordantly, true worshipers never give λατρεύω to anyone other than the Most High God, Jehovah.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 01:30:40 pm
Agreed, and Jesus is YHWH.  As I pointed out multiple times in the OP!
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 05:24:42 pm
Agreed, and Jesus is YHWH.  As I pointed out multiple times in the OP!

Jesus was Jehovah God's very first creation - Proverbs 8:22-31; Colossians 1:15-17. Revelation describes Christ Jesus as “the beginning of the creation by God” and in 1 Corinthians as “the power of God and the wisdom of God” (Revelation 3:14; 1 Corinthians 1:24,30) but NEVER as the Almighty Father, Jehovah God.


At John 20:17 Jesus said to Mary Magdalene: "I am ascending [] to my God and your God." (RS, Catholic edition) (Bracket mine.)


"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." - Ephesians 1:3 (See also 2 Corinthians 1:3; Colossians 1:3; Ephesians 1:17 )


"O my God, my Holy One, you do not die." - Habakkuk 1:12


"God [] resurrected [Jesus]." (Acts 2:24) (Brackest mine.)


"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him." (Revelation 1:1, RS, Catholic edition)


"God exalted this one [Jesus] . . . to his right hand." (Acts 5:31) (Bracket mine.)


"God exalted him [Jesus] to a superior position." (Philippians 2:9) (Bracket mine.)


“Christ [] entered heaven itself, so that he could appear in the actual presence of God." (Hebrews 9:24, JB) (Bracket mine.)






“[Stephen] gazed into heaven and caught sight [] of Jesus standing at God's right hand." (Acts 7:55) (Brackets mine.)


"You [Jesus] loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners." - Hebrews 1:9 (Brackets mine.)


"After that will come the end, when he [Jesus in heaven – Michael the Archangel] will hand over the kingdom to God [] . . . Then the Son himself will be subjected to the One who has subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all."—1 Corinthians 15:24, 28, NJB. (Brackets mine.)


"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." - Ephesians 1:3


“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.” - John 1:18


Jesus himself taught that no "man has seen the Father" - John 6:46.


"The head of the Christ is God" in the same way that "the head of every man is the Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:3)


Jesus said, "The Father is greater than I."—John 14:28, RS, Catholic edition.


"If by one man’s trespass many died, the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift with the undeserved kindness by the one MAN Jesus Christ abounded much more to many." - Romans 5:15


"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a MAN, Christ Jesus." - 1 Timothy 2:5








“In reply Jesus said to [Satan]: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”” - Luke 4:8 (Bracket mine.)


“Jehovah your God you should fear, and him you should serve.” - Deuteronomy 6:13




Jesus taught, “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’” - Matthew 22:37


“[Y]ou must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.” - Deuteronomy 6:5 (Bracket mine.)




Jesus never claimed to be Jehovah God. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way—not in power, not in knowledge, not in age.


In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 05:38:22 pm
Jesus was Jehovah God's very first creation - Proverbs 8:22-31;

Can you give me any type of evidence that Prov. 8 is talking about Jesus beside your own presuppositions?

Quote
Colossians 1:15-17.

Please read the OP before commenting.  I beg you.

Quote
Revelation describes Christ Jesus as “the beginning of the creation by God” and in 1 Corinthians as “the power of God and the wisdom of God” (Revelation 3:14; 1 Corinthians 1:24,30) but NEVER as the Almighty Father, Jehovah God.

Revelation 3.14 was discussed in the OP.  I beg you to read it before commenting.  That's because we don't even believe that Jesus is the Father! If we had a verse saying that Jesus is the Father that would work against our views.  Please read the OP and understand the position you are arguing against.


Quote
At John 20:17 Jesus said to Mary Magdalene: "I am ascending [] to my God and your God." (RS, Catholic edition) (Bracket mine.)


"Blessed be the God [] of our Lord Jesus Christ." - 2 Corinthians 1:3 (Bracket mine.)

Discussed in the OP.

Quote
"O my God, my Holy One, you do not die." - Habakkuk 1:12

Yes, Jesus' divine nature did not die.  Jesus' human body did.

Quote
"God [] resurrected [Jesus]." (Acts 2:24) (Brackest mine.)

Yep, the Father raised Jesus.  Jesus also took up His own life.

Quote
"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him." (Revelation 1:1, RS, Catholic edition)

Yes, the Father.  We don't believe Jesus is the Father.  This really isn't that difficult.

Quote
"God exalted this one [Jesus] . . . to his right hand." (Acts 5:31) (Bracket mine.)


"God exalted him [Jesus] to a superior position." (Philippians 2:9) (Bracket mine.)

Discussed Phil 2.9 in the OP.  Phil. 2.6-11 is a great passage to show that Jesus is God.  Please read the OP.

Quote
“Christ [] entered heaven itself, so that he could appear in the actual presence of God." (Hebrews 9:24, JB) (Bracket mine.)

“[Stephen] gazed into heaven and caught sight [] of Jesus standing at God's right hand." (Acts 7:55) (Brackets mine.)

"You [Jesus] loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners." - Hebrews 1:9 (Brackets mine.)

Yes, Jesus isn't the Father.  You are creating strawmen.

Quote
"After that will come the end, when he [Jesus in heaven – Michael the Archangel] will hand over the kingdom to God [] . . . Then the Son himself will be subjected to the One who has subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all."—1 Corinthians 15:24, 28, NJB. (Brackets mine.)

Lol.  I love your insertion which is completely unwarranted.  Nonetheless, they have different roles.

Quote
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." - Ephesians 1:3

Passages like this were discussed in the OP.

Quote
“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.” - John 1:18

That is talking about the Father.  Also, that's an incorrect translation of monogenes and the only reason you use "god" instead of "God" is because of a presupposition that you are imposing upon the text.

Quote
Jesus himself taught that no "man has seen the Father" - John 6:46.

Jesus isn't the Father!

Quote
"The head of the Christ is God" in the same way that "the head of every man is the Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Jesus said, "The Father is greater than I."—John 14:28, RS, Catholic edition.

Different roles.  Discussed in the OP.

Quote
"If by one man’s trespass many died, the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift with the undeserved kindness by the one MAN Jesus Christ abounded much more to many." - Romans 5:15

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a MAN, Christ Jesus." - 1 Timothy 2:5

Yes, Jesus is both God and man.  This is only due to your ignorance about what we believe.

Quote
“In reply Jesus said to [Satan]: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”” - Luke 4:8 (Bracket mine.)

“Jehovah your God you should fear, and him you should serve.” - Deuteronomy 6:13

Jesus taught, “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’” - Matthew 22:37

“[Y]ou must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.” - Deuteronomy 6:5 (Bracket mine.)

Yep, and Jesus is YHWH.  I pointed to multiple texts on this point in the OP.  Want me to give more?

Quote
Jesus never claimed to be Jehovah God. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way—not in power, not in knowledge, not in age.

In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God.

Mere assertion.

Seriously, I beg you, please do a couple things.  First, try to actually understand our position.  The JWs say we believe things that we don't and it's obvious you follow them.  We don't believe Jesus is the Father, the JWs are incorrect to say we do.  Second, please actually read the OP.  Third, please actually interact with my exegesis after reading the OP.  If you can't do that, then you are just wasting time and space in posting.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 05:53:35 pm
Quote
"O my God, my Holy One, you do not die." - Habakkuk 1:12
Quote
Yes, Jesus' divine nature did not die.  Jesus' human body did.

Strawman. Try again.

Quote
"God [] resurrected [Jesus]." (Acts 2:24) (Brackest mine.)

Quote
Yep, the Father raised Jesus.  Jesus also took up His own life.
Strawman. Try again.

Quote
"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him." (Revelation 1:1, RS, Catholic edition)

Quote
Yes, the Father.
Strawman and a quite comical one at that. By attributing this to The Father you're making an equivalency between The Father and God such that any claim you make that Jesus is God also implies that Jesus is The Father which you claim is false. In effect, you're refuting yourself. Concordantly, the Athanasian Creed is false.

Quote
“Christ [] entered heaven itself, so that he could appear in the actual presence of God." (Hebrews 9:24, JB) (Bracket mine.)

“[Stephen] gazed into heaven and caught sight [] of Jesus standing at God's right hand." (Acts 7:55) (Brackets mine.)

"You [Jesus] loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners." - Hebrews 1:9 (Brackets mine.)
Quote
Yes, Jesus isn't the Father.

Strawman. Try again.

Quote
"After that will come the end, when he [Jesus in heaven – Michael the Archangel] will hand over the kingdom to God [] . . . Then the Son himself will be subjected to the One who has subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all."—1 Corinthians 15:24, 28, NJB. (Brackets mine.)
Quote
Lol.  I love your insertion which is completely unwarranted.  Nonetheless, they have different roles.
Modalism? I thought you rejected this Trinitarian Doctrine.

Quote
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." - Ephesians 1:3
Quote
Passages like this were discussed in the OP.
Where?

Quote
“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.” - John 1:18
Quote
That is talking about the Father. 
Strawman. Try again.

Quote
Jesus himself taught that no "man has seen the Father" - John 6:46.
Quote
Jesus isn't the Father!
You're contradicting yourself. See above.

Quote
"The head of the Christ is God" in the same way that "the head of every man is the Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Jesus said, "The Father is greater than I."—John 14:28, RS, Catholic edition.
Quote
Different roles.
Strawman. Try again.

Quote
"If by one man’s trespass many died, the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift with the undeserved kindness by the one MAN Jesus Christ abounded much more to many." - Romans 5:15

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a MAN, Christ Jesus." - 1 Timothy 2:5
Quote
Yes, Jesus is both God and man. 
Strawman. Try again.



Quote
“In reply Jesus said to [Satan]: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”” - Luke 4:8 (Bracket mine.)

“Jehovah your God you should fear, and him you should serve.” - Deuteronomy 6:13

Jesus taught, “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’” - Matthew 22:37

“[Y]ou must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.” - Deuteronomy 6:5 (Bracket mine.)
Quote
Yep, and Jesus is YHWH.

Argumentum assertio does not a substitute for actual evidence make. Sorry, try again.

Quote
Jesus never claimed to be Jehovah God. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way—not in power, not in knowledge, not in age.

In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God.
Quote
Mere assertion.
False. These are salient facts firmly buttressed by the scriptures you insist on strawmanning.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 31, 2013, 06:02:48 pm
So Maxximilian,

The Father is God - agreed
Jesus was fully man while on earth - agreed

"my God"
Since you don't seem to have read the OP I'll quote it for you to make it easier for you

Quote from: AAQ
Thus, the fact that He says “my God” only shows that He was a devout Jewish man, which was necessary for Him to be the sacrifice for our sins.  It then follows that the fact that Jesus says “my God” in reference to the Father in no way shows that Jesus is not God the Son.
  Further, the fact that Jesus had returned to heaven at this point does not matter either.  When He returned to heaven He did not all of the sudden lose His human nature.  Thus, this part of the verse is perfectly consistent with Trinitarian thought too.  The analysis of this verse also covers times when Paul says things like “the God and Father of Jesus.”
So I hope that will put an end to this endless and tedious stuck gramophone repetition of the same verses over and over again. Try interacting with AAQ's argument above instead.

Oh, and as AAQ says, mainstream Christians don't believe that Jesus is the Father   so maybe you can take that particular cracked record off the turntable as well and we can progress this discussion constructively.

John 1:18 "the only begotten God" Who is meant there?

"You must love Jehovah your God" Mt 22;37 by the same token e.g.: "I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Jehovah Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another" 1 Cor 1:10  (both use kyrios)

You also seem to have redefined "strawman" (another tedious stuck record) as someone saying something with which you disagree. It actually means "misrepresentation of an opponent's position", so if someone states their own belief (e.g. Jesus is God and man) that is not a "strawman".
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 06:16:37 pm
Yeah, this is just beyond ridiculous.  Thanks lapwing.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Born Again on July 31, 2013, 06:35:25 pm
The title question of this topic perhaps first needs another answer, namely, that Jesus must be God (and man), otherwise salvation isn't even possible.

Suppose there are three persons, A, B, and C. C has sinned, and A asks B to die for C. In so doing, A is able to express his love for C, and C is also able to answer the demand of the law, but all this will be rather unjust to B. I have sinned, and God causes Christ to die for me. Thus is manifested the love of God toward me, and in addition I have met the requirement of the law. Yet will it not be highly unrighteous to Christ? Only when Christ is both man and God at the same time can it be truly just. First of all, then, we need to know what is forgiveness. To forgive presupposes a loss to the forgiver through the offense of the forgiven. For instance, if someone owes you ten dollars and you forgive him, it automatically means that you suffer the loss of ten dollars. In God’s plan of redemption, Christ should not be a third party. If He be a third party, God would be being unjust to Christ since Christ has no sin and hence is not subject to death. The Bible tells us that men have sinned and God is offended. So what is involved is the relation between God and men. To ask a third party to die as a substitute may perhaps fulfill the law’s demand on men as well as fulfill God’s righteousness, but this will be most unjust to that third party. Only because Christ is simultaneously God and man can this substitution be termed just. 'Wherewith shall I come before Jehovah, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt-offerings, with calves a year old? will Jehovah be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?' (Micah 6.6,7) Here it is stated that if we sin against God, it is futile to offer calves and rams. All kinds of offerings are of no avail, not even the firstborn ones of our bodies. Christ, therefore, must be God who is himself being offended. For only in this way will He not become a third party. Because Christ is God, the work of redemption is justified. Stating it conversely, since the work of redemption is just, Christ must be God, since only the offended can ever forgive the offender. Who can ever then say that forgiveness is unrighteous? Because Christ is God and He is the One being sinned against, He is therefore able to forgive us. Consider these two verses: 'The commandment, which was unto life, this I found to be unto death' (Rom. 7.10); 'The wages of sin is death' (6.23). These passages cause us to see that unless a person keeps all the laws perfectly he must die. In order to make us live, the Lord himself needs to suffer the penalty of sin, which is death. Nevertheless, it is said in 1 Timothy 6.16 that God '[alone] hath immortality'; and hence, for Christ to die as our substitute He must simultaneously be man. And in His body as a man He died for us. So that we can rightly say this: He is God, therefore He has the possibility of saving men.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 31, 2013, 06:53:24 pm
+1 I thought I'd put in the first of the many applauds you will receive here with posts like that. Welcome to the forum - good name!  :)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 31, 2013, 07:46:33 pm
So Maxximilian,

The Father is God - agreed
Jesus was fully man while on earth - agreed

"my God"
Since you don't seem to have read the OP I'll quote it for you to make it easier for you

Quote from: AAQ
Thus, the fact that He says “my God” only shows that He was a devout Jewish man, which was necessary for Him to be the sacrifice for our sins.  It then follows that the fact that Jesus says “my God” in reference to the Father in no way shows that Jesus is not God the Son.
  Further, the fact that Jesus had returned to heaven at this point does not matter either.  When He returned to heaven He did not all of the sudden lose His human nature.  Thus, this part of the verse is perfectly consistent with Trinitarian thought too.  The analysis of this verse also covers times when Paul says things like “the God and Father of Jesus.”

Since you are claiming that Jesus went back to heaven with his "human nature", I am assuming that you have scriptural evidence for this?

Jesus' flesh was sacrificed. He was not raised "in the flesh" he was raised "in the spirit". (1 Pet 3:18) He was a spirit before he came to earth and returned to spiritual form when he went back to his Father. How does human form or nature exist in heaven? Where is the scripture that says so?

Quote
So I hope that will put an end to this endless and tedious stuck gramophone repetition of the same verses over and over again. Try interacting with AAQ's argument above instead.

It would be good if you could see the ridiculous nature of your own argument.

1 Cor 15:42-45...."So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."
(ASV)

Do you see any room for believing that Jesus was raised as anything but a spirit? Do you see that those who go to heaven will be in the same sort of body? Humans cannot live in heaven. (1 Cor 15:50)

Quote
Oh, and as AAQ says, mainstream Christians don't believe that Jesus is the Father   so maybe you can take that particular cracked record off the turntable as well and we can progress this discussion constructively.

John 1:18 "the only begotten God" Who is meant there?

"Mainstream" is no indication that any belief is correct. Was Jesus "mainstream"? Were any of his disciples?
"Few" are on the road to life...that rules out anything "mainstream". (Matt 7:13, 14)

John 1:18 proves that Jesus was not "the God", Jehovah. Since "the God" cannot be "begotten", as is demonstrated by many translations that render that verse "only begotten Son"; that it is speaking about a lesser god-like being in the person of the Word. It was the Word who became flesh....not "the God", Jehovah.

Quote
"You must love Jehovah your God" Mt 22;37 by the same token e.g.: "I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Jehovah Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another" 1 Cor 1:10  (both use kyrios)
Ha ha,  ;D  proving what? That both are identified in the scriptures as "Lord"? You must be joking! Even Sarah called Abraham "Lord". (Gen 18:12) "Lord" is a title, not a designation that belongs exclusively to God and Christ. Even the title "god" does not belong to the true God exclusively. Its meaning is applied to others in scripture, including false gods.

"For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." (1 Cor 8:5,6 NASB)

How far from Paul's words are your statements of belief? Trinitarians ignore the scriptures that disagree with their understanding about who "God" really is. They force this three in one persona on the true God when there is no one who shares godship with "the only true God" (John 17:3) Nowhere is Jesus called the "only true God"...not once.

Quote
You also seem to have redefined "strawman" (another tedious stuck record) as someone saying something with which you disagree. It actually means "misrepresentation of an opponent's position", so if someone states their own belief (e.g. Jesus is God and man) that is not a "strawman".

If the stated belief is itself a strawman then Maxx is perfectly correct. Trinitarian belief is a gross misrepresentation of who God is. It is taking worship that rightfully belongs exclusively to the Father and making the son an equivalent deity to his superior Father. That is blasphemy!

It is AAQ who also has a strawman fetish.....way before Maxx arrived here.  :-\
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 07:47:10 pm
So Maxximilian,

The Father is God - agreed
Jesus was fully man while on earth - agreed

"my God"
Since you don't seem to have read the OP I'll quote it for you to make it easier for you

Quote from: AAQ
Thus, the fact that He says “my God” only shows that He was a devout Jewish man, which was necessary for Him to be the sacrifice for our sins.  It then follows that the fact that Jesus says “my God” in reference to the Father in no way shows that Jesus is not God the Son.
  Further, the fact that Jesus had returned to heaven at this point does not matter either.  When He returned to heaven He did not all of the sudden lose His human nature.  Thus, this part of the verse is perfectly consistent with Trinitarian thought too.  The analysis of this verse also covers times when Paul says things like “the God and Father of Jesus.”
How does that dispose of all those passages in Ephesians, Colossians and Corinthians, to just name a few, that allude to the Father and God of Christ in heaven (not as a Hebrew man)?

Quote
"I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Jehovah Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another" 1 Cor 1:10

Nice try. Here's what 1 Corinthians 1:10 actually says:
Παρακαλῶ δὲ ὑμᾶς ἀδελφοί, διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἵνα τὸ αὐτὸ λέγητε πάντες καὶ μὴ ᾖ ἐν ὑμῖν σχίσματα ἦτε δὲ κατηρτισμένοι ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ νοῒ καὶ ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ γνώμῃ.

Legerdermain is one thing but naked fraud? Careful, your absolute desperation is starting to show ...

Just out of curiosity, is your last name Madoff?

Quote
You also seem to have redefined "strawman" 
Not at all since the deliberate misrepresentation of the scriptures I cited also constitutes strawmanning.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 08:01:09 pm
The title question of this topic perhaps first needs another answer, namely, that Jesus must be God (and man), otherwise salvation isn't even possible.

Suppose there are three persons, A, B, and C. C has sinned, and A asks B to die for C. In so doing, A is able to express his love for C, and C is also able to answer the demand of the law, but all this will be rather unjust to B. I have sinned, and God causes Christ to die for me.
Hello and welcome! :)


As much as it pains me, I'm forced to point out that what you've presented is an argumentum reductio ad absurdum fallacy. Here's why. (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/incarnation/merely-one-perfect-phsical-human-life-6022408.msg1275166733.html#msg1275166733)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 31, 2013, 08:13:45 pm
Quote from: Born Again
The Bible tells us that men have sinned and God is offended. So what is involved is the relation between God and men. To ask a third party to die as a substitute may perhaps fulfill the law’s demand on men as well as fulfill God’s righteousness, but this will be most unjust to that third party. Only because Christ is simultaneously God and man can this substitution be termed just. 'Wherewith shall I come before Jehovah, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt-offerings, with calves a year old? will Jehovah be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?' (Micah 6.6,7) Here it is stated that if we sin against God, it is futile to offer calves and rams. All kinds of offerings are of no avail, not even the firstborn ones of our bodies. Christ, therefore, must be God who is himself being offended. For only in this way will He not become a third party.
Welcome from me too BA.

But I must also protest about your argument.   :(

It is based on a twisting of scripture and assumptions that the scriptures themselves do not make.

Why were the Israelites told to sacrifice animals with blood offerings to God if they were unacceptable?

Where does it ever suggest in scripture that Jesus must be God to offer his life for mankind? You are making these assumptions based on proving your trinity doctrine.

Abraham was asked to offer Isaac and we see the pictorial portrayal of God sacrificing his "only begotten son" in this event....we see the willingness of both parties in carrying out God's request. Abraham did not argue that the sacrifice was too great and Isaac was a young man and his father was well over 100 years old. There was no resistance on the part of the son, just a willingness to do what was asked since it was a direct command of God. All of the promises for the future of the human race rested on Isaac, yet Abraham was willing to obey a seemingly impossible request and rely on God's righteousness to satisfy his own perfect justice and to fulfill his purpose in connection with his promises. (Heb 11:17-19)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 31, 2013, 08:16:45 pm
Nice try. Here's what 1 Corinthians 1:10 actually says:
Παρακαλῶ δὲ ὑμᾶς ἀδελφοί, διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἵνα τὸ αὐτὸ λέγητε πάντες καὶ μὴ ᾖ ἐν ὑμῖν σχίσματα ἦτε δὲ κατηρτισμένοι ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ νοῒ καὶ ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ γνώμῃ.
Legerdermain is one thing but blatant fraud? Careful, your absolute desperation is starting to show ...

I think you missed the point of what he is saying. You said this:

Jesus taught, “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’” - Matthew 22:37

You translated the word "κυρίου" as Jehovah in this verse. Now, I'm going to give the Greek version of the verse then the NWT translation of it. I'm then going to highlight the Greek word in question and how it is translated in these two verses in red. My comments will be bracketed and teal. Check this out:

Quote
1 Corinthians 1:10
Παρακαλῶ δὲ ὑμᾶς ἀδελφοί, διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἵνα τὸ αὐτὸ λέγητε πάντες καὶ μὴ ᾖ ἐν ὑμῖν σχίσματα ἦτε δὲ κατηρτισμένοι ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ νοῒ καὶ ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ γνώμῃ.

Quote
1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I exhort ​YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord [Correct] Jesus Christ that ​YOU​ should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among ​YOU, but that ​YOU​ may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.

Quote
Matthew 22:37
ὁ δὲ ἔφη αὐτῷ· ἀγαπήσεις κύριον τὸν θεόν σου ἐν ὅλῃ καρδίᾳ σου καὶ ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ ψυχῇ σου καὶ ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ διανοίᾳ σου·

Quote
Matthew 22:37
He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah [LOLWUT???] your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’

In reality, the word just means master/lord. But, the translation I used above (the  NWT) renders it as "Jehovah" in certain verses and "lord" in other verses. Some other translations make this mistake as well, to be fair.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 08:24:52 pm
Quote from: Jem
He was not raised "in the flesh" he was raised "in the spirit". (1 Pet 3:18)

This is incorrect, Jem.  I know people have already been over this with you but I guess I'll do it this time around.  First, the very word for resurrection means a bodily resurrection.  Thus, the very fact that it is called a resurrection all over the New Testament means that Jesus was bodily raised.  Second, any honest person will say that 1 Peter 3.18 is one of the most difficult passages to interpret so I'm hoping you are willing to say the same.  I find it very telling that JWs pin a huge doctrine on such a difficult passage which is exactly what cults do.  Nonetheless, let's look at the verse.

First, the verse does not say he wasn't raised in the flesh so it's not like that is in there.  Nonetheless, the relevant portion is this: "but being made alive in the spirit." (NWT)  The Greek says, " ζῳοποιηθεὶς δὲ πνεύματι·" (transliterated, zoopoietheis de pnemati).  Literally translated as "being made alive but in/by the spirit."  Thus, the last word can either mean in or by and to settle that one must look elsewhere.  Hence, since resurrection is talking about a bodily resurrection and other verses clearly have a bodily resurrection in mind, the best rendering would be "but being made alive by the spirit" which poses no challenge at all for a bodily resurrection.

As to 1 Cor. 15, notice that the thing sown is the thing raised.  Thus, the material body is sown and raised but it is sown because it is corruptible but raised because it is incorruptible.  The notion that Paul was talking about an immaterial resurrection is rightly laughed at by scholars. Again, "raised" literally means physical resurrection.  I can go into more detail about how "spiritual body" doesn't mean immaterial if need be.

You have still failed to interact with my showing you that monogenes does not mean only begotten like you continue to claim.  That's in the OP.

As to 1 Cor. 8.5,6, I already showed you that that passage shows that Jesus is God.  Do you need me to repost it?  I will do so just for you:

Quote from: Asking_A_Question
"there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him." (NWT)

Notice the phraseology of 1 Cor. 8.6, "one God...one Lord..."

Let's look at Deut. 6.4 (LXX): ...κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν κύριος εἷς ἐστιν (transliterated, kurios ho theos hemon kurios heis estin.

Now look at the Greek of 1 Cor. 8.6:
ἀλλ᾿ ἡμῖν εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατὴρ
   ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν,
καὶ εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς
   δι᾿ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι᾿ αὐτοῦ.
Or, transliterated:
all' hemin heis theos ho pater
   ex hou ta panta kai hemeis heis auton,
kai heis kurious Iesous Christos
   di hou ta panta kai hemeis di autou.
And estin is carried over from verse 5.

Thus, we see Paul use all of the words of the shema but rearrange it to include Jesus.  Hence, Paul is taking the most monotheistic passage that talks about Israel's one true God and saying both the Father and Jesus belong in there.  Therefore, Paul is saying that Jesus is God while not saying that Jesus is another god, but the same God as the Father, yet they are separate.  With all of that in mind, 1 Cor. 8.5-6 is another passage that shows that Jesus is God.

Jem, I offer the same invitation to you that I did to Max.  Seriously, I beg you, please do a few things.  First, try to actually understand our position.  The JWs say we believe things that we don't and it's obvious you follow them.  We don't believe Jesus is the Father, the JWs are incorrect to say we do.  Second, please actually read the OP.  Third, please actually interact with my exegesis after reading the OP.  If you can't do that, then you are just wasting time and space in posting.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 31, 2013, 08:51:55 pm
I think you missed the point of what he is saying. You said this:

Jesus taught, “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’” - Matthew 22:37

You translated the word "κυρίου" as Jehovah in this verse. Now, I'm going to give the Greek version of the verse then the NWT translation of it. I'm then going to highlight the Greek word in question and how it is translated in these two verses in red. My comments will be bracketed and teal. Check this out:

Quote
1 Corinthians 1:10
Παρακαλῶ δὲ ὑμᾶς ἀδελφοί, διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἵνα τὸ αὐτὸ λέγητε πάντες καὶ μὴ ᾖ ἐν ὑμῖν σχίσματα ἦτε δὲ κατηρτισμένοι ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ νοῒ καὶ ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ γνώμῃ.

Quote
1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I exhort ​YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord [Correct] Jesus Christ that ​YOU​ should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among ​YOU, but that ​YOU​ may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.

Quote
Matthew 22:37
ὁ δὲ ἔφη αὐτῷ· ἀγαπήσεις κύριον τὸν θεόν σου ἐν ὅλῃ καρδίᾳ σου καὶ ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ ψυχῇ σου καὶ ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ διανοίᾳ σου·

Quote
Matthew 22:37
He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah [LOLWUT???] your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’

In reality, the word just means master/lord. But, the translation I used above (the  NWT) renders it as "Jehovah" in certain verses and "lord" in other verses. Some other translations make this mistake as well, to be fair.

(Deuteronomy 6:5) "And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force."(NWT)

"and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (ASV)

(Joshua 22:5) "Only be very careful to carry out the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of Jehovah commanded YOU by loving Jehovah YOUR God and by walking in all his ways and by keeping his commandments and by cleaving to him and by serving him with all YOUR heart and with all YOUR soul.”
(Matthew 22:37) He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’
" (NWT)

"Only take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of Jehovah commanded you, to love Jehovah your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul." (ASV)

(Luke 10:27)" In answer he said: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole strength and with your whole mind,’ and, ‘your neighbor as yourself.’” (NWT)

"And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." (ASV)

Now what do you see Curt? Who is "the Lord thy God"? Are we in any doubt?

If the NT writers quote Jesus using OT scripture and "YHWH" (Jehovah) is there in the original...what do you see as a glaring omission in the rendering of Luke 10:27?

You are falling for a very old trick. Who was it that managed to get the divine name removed from the word of God? How many times was it removed? Almost 7,000 times! That is a huge substitution considering that there is not one sanction from the author of the Bible to remove it even once.  :-\
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 08:55:42 pm
Nice try. Here's what 1 Corinthians 1:10 actually says:
Παρακαλῶ δὲ ὑμᾶς ἀδελφοί, διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἵνα τὸ αὐτὸ λέγητε πάντες καὶ μὴ ᾖ ἐν ὑμῖν σχίσματα ἦτε δὲ κατηρτισμένοι ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ νοῒ καὶ ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ γνώμῃ.
Legerdermain is one thing but blatant fraud? Careful, your absolute desperation is starting to show ...

I think you missed the point of what he is saying. You said this:

Jesus taught, “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’” - Matthew 22:37

You translated the word "κυρίου" as Jehovah in this verse.
Strawman. You're obviating the fact that Jesus was quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 which reads, "וְאָ֣הַבְתָּ֔  אֵ֖ת  יְהוָ֣ה  אֱלֹהֶ֑יךָ  בְּכָל־  לְבָבְךָ֥  וּבְכָל־  נַפְשְׁךָ֖  וּבְכָל־  מְאֹדֶֽךָ׃"


See where it says יְהוָ֣ה. This is God's personal name, Jehovah. As such, Jesus didn't say LORD when he recited that text, he said יְהוָ֣ה.

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 08:57:01 pm
Ah, so if an OT passage is quoted and it uses YHWH, then we should insert it into the NT, right?  So like Rom. 10.13 which is talking about Jesus and it's quoting Joel 2.32 which has the name YHWH.  Thus, Paul is saying that Jesus is YHWH.  If you are going to follow such a translation philosophy, then at least be consistent.

Nonetheless, is there a single NT manuscript that uses the Tetragrammaton?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 09:05:09 pm
Jesus was bodily raised.
For your next trick, try and make this scripture disappear:

"If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam [Jesus] became a life-giving spirit." - 1 Corinthians 15:44,45. (Bracket mine.)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 09:07:34 pm
So like Rom. 10.13 which is talking about Jesus and it's quoting Joel 2.32 which has the name YHWH.  Thus, Paul is saying that Jesus is YHWH. 
Strawman. Try again.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 31, 2013, 09:10:39 pm
Nice try. Here's what 1 Corinthians 1:10 actually says:
Παρακαλῶ δὲ ὑμᾶς ἀδελφοί, διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἵνα τὸ αὐτὸ λέγητε πάντες καὶ μὴ ᾖ ἐν ὑμῖν σχίσματα ἦτε δὲ κατηρτισμένοι ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ νοῒ καὶ ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ γνώμῃ.
Legerdermain is one thing but blatant fraud? Careful, your absolute desperation is starting to show ...

I think you missed the point of what he is saying. You said this:

Jesus taught, “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’” - Matthew 22:37

You translated the word "κυρίου" as Jehovah in this verse.
Strawman. You're obviating the fact that Jesus was quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 which reads, "וְאָ֣הַבְתָּ֔  אֵ֖ת  יְהוָ֣ה  אֱלֹהֶ֑יךָ  בְּכָל־  לְבָבְךָ֥  וּבְכָל־  נַפְשְׁךָ֖  וּבְכָל־  מְאֹדֶֽךָ׃"


See where it says יְהוָ֣ה. This is God's personal name, Jehovah. As such, Jesus didn't say LORD when he recited that text, he said יְהוָ֣ה.

First off, stop using "Straw Man". This was not a Straw Man in any way, shape, or form. Incorrect perhaps, and that's fair, but it's not a straw man. It's only a straw man when I misrepresent your position, but I did no such thing. All I did was quote you, I never said that you had any position. I said that the translation of that one verse was incorrect, nothing more, and thus is definitely is not a straw man (as I did not ascribe to you any specific position). You're using these terms incorrectly and far too frequently, you should give it a rest lol.

It doesn't matter what he was quoting, necessarily. The Greek says what it says. The Greek word used here was Lord, not Jehovah. Say what you will, but it is actually still a mistranslation. Feel free to believe that the Greek should read as saying Jehovah, but that's not what the text says and is factually an incorrect translation of what it actually says.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 31, 2013, 09:24:14 pm
Quote from: AAQ
Jem, I offer the same invitation to you that I did to Max.  Seriously, I beg you, please do a few things.  First, try to actually understand our position.  The JWs say we believe things that we don't and it's obvious you follow them.  We don't believe Jesus is the Father, the JWs are incorrect to say we do.  Second, please actually read the OP.  Third, please actually interact with my exegesis after reading the OP.  If you can't do that, then you are just wasting time and space in posting.

I was a trinitarian once, don't tell me I don't understand. You believe that Jesus and his Father make up the person of one god. That is NOT taught anywhere in scripture. The holy spirit is even further removed from this false teaching.

Let's try this again.....

1 Cor 15:42-45...."So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."
(ASV)

Jesus is raised "a life giving SPIRIT".

Flesh and blood are designed to live on earth, not in heaven. The fact that Jesus manifested or "appeared" to his disciples after he died, means that he could disappear as well, which he did right in front of their eyes. He had to manifest in a fleshly body because the law forbade them from engaging in spiritism of any sort. (Deut 18:10-12)

When angels appeared to God's servants in times past, it was always in human form. (or in visions or dreams) Yet these angels were not humans. After the flood of Noah's day, there is no record of demons materializing human form again. So communicating with spirits is communicating with demons.

I do not see any room for believing that Jesus was raised as anything but a spirit? Do you see that those who go to heaven will be in the same sort of body as Christ? Will they also be God? Humans cannot live in heaven. (1 Cor 15:50) A complete transformation is required before they can dwell in the presence of the Father.

" But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at His coming, those who belong to Christ. " (1 Cor 15:20-23 HOLMAN)

Christ was not the first person to be resurrected. Yet he is called the "firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" How is Christ's resurrection, and hence 'those who belong to him' different to the resurrection that all Jews believed in?

They had belief in the resurrection, but not the one Jesus was talking about. The disciples did not understand that Jesus was going to heaven and that they were going there too. This was not a Jewish belief or expectation. It took the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost to implant a desire to go to heaven.

Quote
So like Rom. 10.13 which is talking about Jesus and it's quoting Joel 2.32 which has the name YHWH.  Thus, Paul is saying that Jesus is YHWH.

Now that is twisting the night away! :P Since Paul was quoting the OT....and the OT said Jehovah, he was indeed referring to the Father. We are instructed to place Father, son and holy spirit in their rightful place.
WE can call on Jehovah's name and we certainly honor the name of Jesus the Christ. Can you show me where we are called to honor the name of nameless the holy spirit? If holy spirit is a person, where is his personal name? And why is it that we need no knowledge of "him" in order to gain everlasting life? (John 17:3)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 09:34:53 pm
It doesn't matter what he was quoting
Yeah, it does for what he was quoting is what he was saying. Jesus said "Jehovah", not "LORD."




And, not to put too fine a point on it but, any and all misrepresentations of your opponents statements are strawmen. Thus, your accusation that I was mistranslating "kyrios" as "Jehovah" is a flagrant strawman.


Here's a thought. The next time you get that sudden overwhelming urge to put words in my mouth resist it with all your might and, instead, ask me what I meant.


Just a thought ...
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 09:38:53 pm
Jesus was bodily raised.
For your next trick, try and make this scripture disappear:

"If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam [Jesus] became a life-giving spirit." - 1 Corinthians 15:44,45. (Bracket mine.)

If by this you mean actually exegete the passage instead of allowing you to read your own ideas into it, then I'm willing to do that.  Let's start with a couple notes of context.  First, 1 Cor. 15 presupposes a bodily resurrection simply due to the term "raised."  Second, the "natural" vs. "spiritual" body is actually more accurate as "body animated by our fallen human nature" and "body animated by the Spirit".  Thus, the whole passage presupposes a bodily resurrection and we must keep that in mind.  Further, 1 Cor. 15 is a passage about eschatology (end times) since it is talking about the reality of the bodily resurrection, etc.  Thus, this passage needs to be understood as an eschatological rather than a Christological passage to keep in line with Paul's thought. Lastly, this is also a much debated passage so we need to keep that in mind.  Nonetheless, Paul is carrying on his distinction between a body animated by our fallen human nature and a body animated by the Spirit.  He is trying to explain how those two things can be.  Thus, he quotes Gen. 2.8 which is using the same terminology as the body animated by our fallen human nature.  Jesus is contrasted with that as the one who is a life giver and has a body animated by the Spirit.  That would be the most natural understanding of the verse.  Again, it's a difficult verse for sure, but that seems to be the best interpretation.

I find it very telling that the JW doctrine is based upon the most obscure and difficult passages instead of clear teachings like resurrection meaning bodily raised or Luke 24.39.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 09:46:35 pm
I was a trinitarian once, don't tell me I don't understand.

If you say so.

Quote
You believe that Jesus and his Father make up the person of one god.

D'oh! I thought you understood!  The Son and the Father are the same being or share the same essence (God), but are not the same person.  So apparently you don't understand.  JWs have brainwashed you to believe that we think they are the same person when we don't.  They first quote creeds showing that we don't think that and then on the next page say that we do think that!  That's dishonest Jem.  They're lying to you.

Quote
Let's try this again.....

1 Cor 15:42-45...."So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."
(ASV)

Jesus is raised "a life giving SPIRIT".

I addressed that passage above.

Quote
Flesh and blood are designed to live on earth, not in heaven. The fact that Jesus manifested or "appeared" to his disciples after he died, means that he could disappear as well, which he did right in front of their eyes. He had to manifest in a fleshly body because the law forbade them from engaging in spiritism of any sort. (Deut 18:10-12)

You are ignoring the plain teaching of Scripture Jem.  The Bible teaches a bodily resurrection which is abundantly clear by the very term itself!

Quote
Humans cannot live in heaven. (1 Cor 15:50) A complete transformation is required before they can dwell in the presence of the Father.

"Flesh and blood" is a well known Jewish idiom that means our fallen human nature.  That's what the verse is saying.

Quote
" But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at His coming, those who belong to Christ. " (1 Cor 15:20-23 HOLMAN)

Christ was not the first person to be resurrected. Yet he is called the "firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" How is Christ's resurrection, and hence 'those who belong to him' different to the resurrection that all Jews believed in?

What?  Jews believed in a bodily resurrection and that's the type of resurrection that Jesus had.  In fact, that's what the very term means!

Quote
They had belief in the resurrection, but not the one Jesus was talking about. The disciples did not understand that Jesus was going to heaven and that they were going there too. This was not a Jewish belief or expectation. It took the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost to implant a desire to go to heaven.

That's different than a bodily resurrection.

Quote
Now that is twisting the night away! :P Since Paul was quoting the OT....and the OT said Jehovah, he was indeed referring to the Father. We are instructed to place Father, son and holy spirit in their rightful place.
WE can call on Jehovah's name and we certainly honor the name of Jesus the Christ. Can you show me where we are called to honor the name of nameless the holy spirit? If holy spirit is a person, where is his personal name? And why is it that we need no knowledge of "him" in order to gain everlasting life? (John 17:3)


Uh, the natural antecedent is obviously Jesus.  It's your presuppositions that is reading that into the text.  Notice the obvious parallel in Romans 10.9.  Thus, Romans 10.13 is talking about Jesus and it calls Him YHWH.  The Holy Spirit shares the same name as the Father and the Son (Matt. 28.18-20).

Apparently I need to say this again. Seriously, I beg you, please do a few things.  First, try to actually understand our position.  The JWs say we believe things that we don't and it's obvious you follow them.  We don't believe Jesus is the Father, the JWs are incorrect to say we do.  Second, please actually read the OP.  Third, please actually interact with my exegesis after reading the OP.  If you can't do that, then you are just wasting time and space in posting.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 09:50:39 pm
Can I also point out that we don't even know the vowels for YHWH/JHVH/YHVH/etc.  Thus, at best, "Jehovah" is a made up name that they are claiming.  However, it's well known that it is an erroneous rendering of the Tetragrammaton (the name for the four consonants we have).  I find that sort of ironic.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 31, 2013, 09:53:27 pm
Yeah, it does for what he was quoting is what he was saying. Jesus said "Jehovah", not "LORD."

That still doesn't matter, because it's still a mistranslation. Firstly, not every quote is precise/exact. You're assuming that Jesus quoted it precisely, but you have no evidence he did. Instead, you have every single manuscript which renders it as lord as opposed to Jehovah. It follows that the evidence points towards lord being what Jesus actually said.

But, again, that's all irrelevant. No matter what, even if that is what you think he said, that is not what it says in Greek. Thus, to translate such a verse as Jehovah when it blatantly says lord, it is in fact a mistranslation. It is an error in translation. It is an incorrect translation. It may be true that this is what Jesus said, that's possible, but it is factually inaccurate as a translation of the Greek. Remember, translations take what one text says in one language and change it to corresponding words in another language. This is a mistranslation of the manuscripts, and that is a fact.

Quote
And, not to put too fine a point on it but, any and all misrepresentations of your opponents statements are strawmen. Thus, your accusation that I was mistranslating "kyrios" as "Jehovah" is a flagrant strawman.

Ugh. When you're reading an English translation of the bible, and you use a translation that translates a certain word incorrectly, you're using an incorrect translation. You can say, "well, I did it because I think Jesus would have used Jehovah's name here", but that's still a mistranslation of what the text says. As such, you were mistranslating it, and that's just a fact.

Now, I never meant to say (as I should think it's obvious) that you literally translated the Greek to English and translated it incorrectly. You probably did not translate the NWT. Instead, it should be obvious that I'm saying you're using a translation that is incorrect.

Quote
Here's a thought. The next time you get that sudden overwhelming urge to put words in my mouth resist it with all your might and, instead, ask me what I meant.

It's a good thing I haven't done such a thing.

Quote
Just a thought ...

Must have been painful for you to have. OH SNAP! (I'm just kidding, trying to lighten the mood lol).
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 10:07:49 pm
Yeah, it does for what he was quoting is what he was saying. Jesus said "Jehovah", not "LORD."
It follows that the evidence points towards lord being what Jesus actually said.

That's because you don't know the kind of man Jesus was.


Quote
that's still a mistranslation of what the text says
Argumentum reductio ad absurdum since there are no extant originals of the Gospels. Only through the operation of the holy spirit can translators accurately render the writings of God's amanuensis as first recorded.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 10:10:52 pm
Can I also point out that we don't even know the vowels for YHWH/JHVH/YHVH/etc.  Thus, at best, "Jehovah" is a made up name that they are claiming.  However, it's well known that it is an erroneous rendering of the Tetragrammaton (the name for the four consonants we have).  I find that sort of ironic.
The same can be argued for all the names in the Bible. You don't think Jesus' friends and family actually called him "Jesus" do you? Why do you call him "Jesus" then?



Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 10:14:48 pm
Can I also point out that we don't even know the vowels for YHWH/JHVH/YHVH/etc.  Thus, at best, "Jehovah" is a made up name that they are claiming.  However, it's well known that it is an erroneous rendering of the Tetragrammaton (the name for the four consonants we have).  I find that sort of ironic.
The same can be argued for all the names in the Bible. You don't think Jesus' friends and family actually called him "Jesus" do you? Why do you call him "Jesus" then?

Ah, so you agree then?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 31, 2013, 10:15:23 pm

That's because you don't know the kind of man Jesus was.

Baseless assertion. I may very well know more about what kind of man he was.

Quote
Argumentum reductio ad absurdum since there are no extant originals of the Gospels. Only through the operation of the holy spirit can translators accurately render the writings of God's amanuensis as first recorded.

Think what you will, you use the Greek manuscripts for your translations, until they no longer suit you. Taxi-cab. Further, it's still a mistranslation, and that's still a fact, and I'm still factually correct.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 10:16:13 pm
Jesus was bodily raised.
For your next trick, try and make this scripture disappear:

"If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam [Jesus] became a life-giving spirit." - 1 Corinthians 15:44,45. (Bracket mine.)

If by this you mean actually exegete the passage instead of allowing you to read your own ideas into it, then I'm willing to do that.  Let's start with a couple notes of context.  First, 1 Cor. 15 presupposes a bodily resurrection simply due to the term "raised."  Second, the "natural" vs. "spiritual" body is actually more accurate as "body animated by our fallen human nature" and "body animated by the Spirit".  Thus, the whole passage presupposes a bodily resurrection and we must keep that in mind.  Further, 1 Cor. 15 is a passage about eschatology (end times) since it is talking about the reality of the bodily resurrection, etc.  Thus, this passage needs to be understood as an eschatological rather than a Christological passage to keep in line with Paul's thought. Lastly, this is also a much debated passage so we need to keep that in mind.  Nonetheless, Paul is carrying on his distinction between a body animated by our fallen human nature and a body animated by the Spirit.  He is trying to explain how those two things can be.  Thus, he quotes Gen. 2.8 which is using the same terminology as the body animated by our fallen human nature.  Jesus is contrasted with that as the one who is a life giver and has a body animated by the Spirit.  That would be the most natural understanding of the verse.  Again, it's a difficult verse for sure, but that seems to be the best interpretation.

I find it very telling that the JW doctrine is based upon the most obscure and difficult passages instead of clear teachings like resurrection meaning bodily raised or Luke 24.39.
That was some pretty mental gymnastics you just performed!


On the other hand, the passage could just mean exactly what it says especially since Jehovah God is exemplified as possessing an immaterial spirit body himself. (John 4:24; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 1 Timothy 1:17; Hebrews 11:27)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 10:18:23 pm
Glad you didn't interact with any of the points at all.  In fact, like I said, the obvious thing when approaching that specific verse is that Jesus was bodily resurrected.  That's exactly what Paul means.  Thus, that's the clear teaching and 1 Cor. 15.45 is the unclear verse.  Further, you didn't show any flaw whatsoever in what I said.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 31, 2013, 10:19:24 pm
That was some pretty mental gymnastics you just performed!


On the other hand, the passage could just mean exactly what it says especially since Jehovah God is exemplified as possessing an immaterial spirit body himself. (John 4:24; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 1 Timothy 1:17; Hebrews 11:27)

Those were some spectacular mental gymnastics, Max. See, other people can make useless assertions too :/.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 10:25:30 pm

That's because you don't know the kind of man Jesus was.

Quote
Baseless assertion. I may very well know more about what kind of man he was.
Jesus loved his Father deeply and, as such, honored and glorified him every way he could. Remember, he taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified." (Matthew 6:9) In prayer to Jehovah God he also said, "I have made your name manifest." (John 17:6)


As such, the belief that Jesus would obscure God's name in any way instead of honoring it belies your claim of knowing him at all.


It also undercuts your Trinitarian teachings further eroding what little credibility you had. After all, you can't teach anything about someone you don't even know.




Quote
Argumentum reductio ad absurdum since there are no extant originals of the Gospels. Only through the operation of the holy spirit can translators accurately render the writings of God's amanuensis as first recorded.

Quote
Think what you will, you use the Greek manuscripts for your translations, until they no longer suit you. Taxi-cab. Further, it's still a mistranslation, and that's still a fact, and I'm still factually correct.

Really? Prove the original Gospels writers mendaciously supplanted Jehovah's name with "kyrios" when quoting form those passages that expressly employed it.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 10:29:32 pm
Max,

You believe the NWT is somehow spectacularly translated from the autographs which we do not possess?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 10:32:33 pm
you didn't show any flaw whatsoever in what I said.
Was Jem's masterful refutation of your sophistic exegesis fuzzy in any way? Why not ask her to guide you from your confusion? I'm sure she'd be more than happy to do so with the same great patience and love she's always displayed :)




Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 31, 2013, 10:33:52 pm
Jesus loved his Father deeply and, as such, honored and glorified him every way he could. Remember, he taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified." (Matthew 6:9) In prayer to Jehovah God he also said, "I have made your name manifest." (John 17:6)


As such, the belief that Jesus would obscure God's name in any way instead of honoring it belies your claim of knowing him at all.

Right, just for the record, none of those were necessarily referencing his actual name. Name can mean a lot of things in these cases, including identity or reputation (e.g. I want to make a name for myself). So, those verses provide you no real support. Beyond that, whatever.

You're content to add into the bible what you think it said. Me? I'll just read the bible and see what it says. You'll use the manuscripts until you don't like what they say, then they're wrong. Whatever, that's fine. It's still factually a mistranslation. I never said it was incorrect, as it may be, but it is still a mistranslation.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 10:35:33 pm
you didn't show any flaw whatsoever in what I said.
Was Jem's masterful refutation of your sophistic exegesis fuzzy in any way? Why not ask her to guide you from your confusion? I'm sure she'd be more than happy to do so with the same great patience and love she's always displayed :)

Uh, Jem didn't interact with my exegesis at all...
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 10:36:54 pm
Max,

You believe the NWT is somehow spectacularly translated from the autographs which we do not possess?
I'm saying it's translation was guided by Jehovah God's holy spirit because only we practice the one true religion, the one Jesus himself practiced and preached:


“It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” -Luke 4:8


"Jehovah your God you should fear, and him you should serve." -Deuteronomy 6:13
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 31, 2013, 10:38:16 pm
Max,

You believe the NWT is somehow spectacularly translated from the autographs which we do not possess?
I'm saying it's translation was guided by Jehovah God's holy spirit because only we practice the one true religion, the one Jesus himself practiced and preached:


“It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” -Luke 4:8


"Jehovah your God you should fear, and him you should serve." -Deuteronomy 6:13

Prove it.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 10:40:01 pm
Max,

So is the translation perfect?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on July 31, 2013, 10:41:54 pm
It is the original autographs of the Scriptures we have that are considered inspired, not what Jesus may or may not have said. That's a variant on the red letter fallacy. So that means the Greek NT which does not use the tetragrammaton.

Thanks Curt. I thought my point was pretty obvious. If you're going to translate kyrios as Jehovah then you need to be consistent. Kyrios means "Lord" not Jehovah. Maxx is redefining Greek because of prejudice.

Quote from: Curt
The Greek word used here was Lord, not Jehovah. Say what you will, but it [Jehovah] is actually still a mistranslation.

Quote from: Jem
Since you are claiming that Jesus went back to heaven with his "human nature", I am assuming that you have scriptural evidence for this?
Jesus is still fully man and fully God in heaven. Stephen saw him as the "son of man" in Acts 7:56 and Jesus is described as "like a son of man" in heaven (Rev 1:13). He will drink wine again with his disciples (Mt 26:29)

This being raised a spiritual body in Corinthians is a misnomer as well. The same Greek word is used in the same book for the manna from heaven which the Israelites ate in the wilderness: "spiritual food". That food had physical reality - "spiritual" relates to its miraculous or God given nature! Jesus ate food after the resurrection and his body bore the marks of his crucifixion.

Quote from: Jem
Mainstream" is no indication that any belief is correct.
I didn't claim that but neither does it indicate the opposite. I was simply defining what I was saying. You're being overly critical Jem.

Quote
"Few" are on the road to life...that rules out anything "mainstream". (Matt 7:13, 14)
Directed to the Jews of Jesus' day. I'll go with the multitude that "no man can number".

Quote
Nowhere is Jesus called the "only true God"...
More being overly prescriptive. Deal with the scriptures as they are and try to do proper exegesis.

Quote
If the stated belief is itself a strawman
So you don't understand the term either. "Strawman" is about how you represent another's words: it's got nothing to do with what you believe.

Quote
How does that dispose of all those passages in Ephesians, Colossians and Corinthians, to just name a few, that allude to the Father and God of Christ in heaven (not as a Hebrew man)?
Still refusing to respond to the OP then?

Quote
Just out of curiosity, is your last name Madoff?
A clear sign of desperation Maxximiliann

Note that 1 Cor 15:45 is contrasting Adam's soul or psyche with Jesus' pneuma or spirit. It's not comparing physical with spiritual but two different life giving forces.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 10:52:38 pm
You're content to add into the bible what you think it said.
Argumentum assertio does not a substitute for actual evidence make. You need to prove the original Gospel recordings mendaciously used kyrios instead of Jehovah everywhere his name properly appeared. Sorry, try again.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 10:59:23 pm
It is the original autographs of the Scriptures we have that are considered inspired
Which are nonextant. That's my point!


It takes, then, guidance from Jehovah God's holy spirit to properly render God's thoughts as first recorded by his amanuensis. All evidence points to the reality that Jesus and his disciples readily and freely used God's personal name, Jehovah especially since we can find it today throughout the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures Jesus and the first century witnesses of Jehovah used.


 
Quote
Still refusing to respond to the OP then?
Argumentum ad lapidem. You’ve done nothing to dispel the arguments presented nor the facts that support them. Try again.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 11:04:16 pm
Max,

So is the translation perfect?
If by perfect you mean definitive, authoritative, superlative, exemplary and consummate, then, yes.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 11:08:42 pm
Max,

So is the translation perfect?
If by perfect you mean definitive, authoritative, superlative, exemplary and consummate, then, yes.

So would one error discredit it and show JWs to be false?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 11:12:27 pm
Max,

You believe the NWT is somehow spectacularly translated from the autographs which we do not possess?
I'm saying it's translation was guided by Jehovah God's holy spirit because only we practice the one true religion, the one Jesus himself practiced and preached:


“It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” -Luke 4:8


"Jehovah your God you should fear, and him you should serve." -Deuteronomy 6:13

Prove it.
Happily!



Jesus taught that the definitive way to identify the true worshipers of God was to examine their fruit. Jehovah's Witnesses are “no part of the world,” are not divided by race or culture, and display ‘love among themselves.’ (John 13:35; 17:16; Acts 10:34, 35) Rather than killing one another, they are willing to die for one another.—1 John 3:16. In fact, no other religion as multi-culturally diverse and global as the Jehovah's Witnesses enjoys the same warm brotherly love that they sincerely express for one another.


Instead of being "intolerant and divisive," true religion, based on the Bible, is "broadly inclusive." The apostle Peter said: "God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him."—Acts 10:34, 35. With over 7.5 MILLION+ members in 239 lands (http://bit.ly/pHfvRj) we are a worldwide brotherhood united in loving, peaceful worship of Jesus' God, Jehovah. The love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness and faith you'll experience there is so deep, profound and moving it's palpable. It's like being in Paradise.  (http://bit.ly/14S7GGK)








The Encyclopedia of Early Christianity states: “The early church saw itself as one new humanity in which previously hostile groups, Jews and Gentiles, could live together in one body of peace.” Jehovah’s Witnesses also are a peace-loving international brotherhood—truly a new world society. (Ephesians 2:11-18; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 3:13) When the chief security officer of the Pretoria Show Grounds in South Africa saw how Witnesses of all races met there peaceably as convention delegates, he said: “Everyone was and is courteous, people speaking nicely to one another, the attitude displayed the past few days—it all testifies to the calibre of the members of your society, and that all live together like one happy family.” - “They Keep On Walking in the Truth”


“It is noteworthy that even these reliable contemporaries [Czech and Slovak Jewish survivors] have with marked admiration testified in favor of prisoners from among Jehovah’s Witnesses. ‘They were very courageous people, who were always helping us in whatever way they could, although running the risk of execution,’ many commented. ‘They prayed for us, as though we belonged to their family; they encouraged us not to give up.’” - “Severočeský Deník”


“All through my sickness [the Witnesses] were diligent nurses. I could not have wished for better care, especially under camp conditions. Jehovah’s Witnesses consider it their duty to help everyone, regardless of religion or nationality.” - “Women in Soviet Prisons”


“They refuse any form of violence and without rebelling put up with the many trials inflicted on them because of their beliefs . . . How different the world would be if we all woke up one morning firmly decided not to take up arms again, whatever the cost or the reason, just like Jehovah’s Witnesses!” - “Andare Alle Genti”


“I have come to the conclusion that if Jehovah’s Witnesses were the only ones living on the earth, wars would cease to exist, and the only duties of the policemen would be to control traffic and to issue passports.” - “Gyűrű”


“Suffice it to say that if all the world lived by the creed of the Jehovah Witnesses there would be an end of bloodshed and hatred, and love would reign as king!”- “The Sacramento Union”


“The work of Jehovah’s Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practised by Jesus and his disciples . . . All are brothers.” - “The Encyclopedia Canadiana”




Of the very first Christians many were forced to acknowledge, "See, said they, how they love one another, and are ready to lay down their lives for each other." (Tertulian, Apology c. 39) The facts shows that the same can be said of Jehovah's Witnesses today.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 31, 2013, 11:13:27 pm
Max,

So is the translation perfect?
If by perfect you mean definitive, authoritative, superlative, exemplary and consummate, then, yes.

So would one error discredit it and show JWs to be false?
That would depend on the nature and severity of the error.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 11:15:16 pm
Like how JWs shun and don't talk to anyone who disagrees on a single point? How you can't deviate on the slightest thing without having the "love" taken away. Right...
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 11:16:04 pm
Max,

So is the translation perfect?
If by perfect you mean definitive, authoritative, superlative, exemplary and consummate, then, yes.

So would one error discredit it and show JWs to be false?
That would depend on the nature and severity of the error.

So it's not perfect then? If it is, the answer to my previous question is yes.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on July 31, 2013, 11:22:57 pm
You're content to add into the bible what you think it said.
Argumentum assertio does not a substitute for actual evidence make. You need to prove the original Gospel recordings mendaciously used kyrios instead of Jehovah everywhere his name properly appeared. Sorry, try again.

No I don't, because I never said Jehovah wasn't used in the original Gospel recordings. I find it very possible and certainly plausible that it was. But, you're the one insisting that the surviving manuscripts (which you rely on for everything you know about Christianity) are wrong. The burden is on the one making the claims. The burden is on you, so try again.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on July 31, 2013, 11:48:19 pm
Ah, so if an OT passage is quoted and it uses YHWH, then we should insert it into the NT, right?  So like Rom. 10.13 which is talking about Jesus and it's quoting Joel 2.32 which has the name YHWH.  Thus, Paul is saying that Jesus is YHWH.  If you are going to follow such a translation philosophy, then at least be consistent.

AAQ, do you read Romans 10 and not see a clear distinction that Paul uses to refer to the Father and to his Lord Jesus? He differentiates quite clearly.

"Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
(Rom 10:1-7)

When you have a substitution for the divine name, you can read verse 13 without knowing that Paul is actually quoting from Joel, where the tetragrammaton was in the original text. It is those calling upon the name of "Jehovah" (Yahweh YHWH or its equivalent in your language) that will be saved.


Quote
Nonetheless, is there a single NT manuscript that uses the Tetragrammaton?

And that is a valid reason in your estimations for excluding the most divine name in existence? You prefer to carry on an unauthorized Jewish superstition, rather than use the divine name that was stated in God's word by Jehovah himself, almost 7,000 times?

Read the Psalms alone and see how many times the divine name is mentioned by the writers. (Psalm 83:18 KJV)

Read Ex 3:15 and see how Jehovah wanted his precious name to be known throughout all generations.

Weak translations produce weak doctrine, which in turn produce weak Christians.

Omitting the divine name and substituting a title, confuses the identity of the true God and leads people away from him.  He has no equals.

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 31, 2013, 11:52:40 pm
Quote from: Jem
When you have a substitution for the divine name, you can read verse 13 without knowing that Paul is actually quoting from Joel, where the tetragrammaton was in the original text. It is those calling upon the name of "Jehovah" (Yahweh YHWH or its equivalent in your language) that will be saved.

Uh, this didn't interact with what I said at all.  All you are saying is "only the Father is YHWH therefore the verse can't be about Jesus."  That's called reading your own views into the text instead of letting the text speak for itself. Again, notice the obvious parallel between Romans 10.9 and 10.13.  Verse 9 says we must confess "Jesus is Lord".  Verse 10 reemphasizes the confession.  Verse 11 cites Isaiah 28.16 with the "him" obviously referring back to Jesus, the one being confessed. Verse 12 says that the same Lord is Lord of all (which is obviously referring to Jesus since He has already been called Lord and He is the antecedent).  Verse 13 starts with "for" which means "because".  Thus, verse 13 is about the person in view in verse 12, which is Jesus.  Hence, verse 13 is about Jesus and it uses YHWH.  Thus, Jesus is YHWH.

Again, Jem, we don't even know the vowels to the name.  It's a made up name.  You are abiding by a manmade name for God and acting like you are the righteous one.  In fact, we know the usage of "Jehovah" is erroneous.  That's irony at its finest.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on August 01, 2013, 12:11:28 am
Again, Jem, we don't even know the vowels to the name.  It's a made up name.  You are abiding by a manmade name for God and acting like you are the righteous one.  In fact, we know the usage of "Jehovah" is erroneous.  That's irony at its finest.
So all the Bibles that use the name Jehovah are erroneous in your view?
That being said, what is your position on Yahweh? Made-up name or given to man by God?

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 12:12:16 am
You're content to add into the bible what you think it said.
Argumentum assertio does not a substitute for actual evidence make. You need to prove the original Gospel recordings mendaciously used kyrios instead of Jehovah everywhere his name properly appeared. Sorry, try again.

No I don't, because I never said Jehovah wasn't used in the original Gospel recordings. I find it very possible and certainly plausible that it was. But, you're the one insisting that the surviving manuscripts (which you rely on for everything you know about Christianity) are wrong. The burden is on the one making the claims. The burden is on you, so try again.
Responderunt interrogavit. Next!
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 12:15:22 am
Max,

So is the translation perfect?
If by perfect you mean definitive, authoritative, superlative, exemplary and consummate, then, yes.

So would one error discredit it and show JWs to be false?
That would depend on the nature and severity of the error.

So it's not perfect then? If it is, the answer to my previous question is yes.
Responderunt interrogavit. Next!
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 12:16:23 am
Again, Jem, we don't even know the vowels to the name.  It's a made up name.  You are abiding by a manmade name for God and acting like you are the righteous one.  In fact, we know the usage of "Jehovah" is erroneous.  That's irony at its finest.
So all the Bibles that use the name Jehovah are erroneous in your view?
That being said, what is your position on Yahweh? Made-up name or given to man by God?

I'm not sure what you mean by the bibles being erroneous.  I think that choice is a mistake, but that doesn't mean the Bible can't be used or isn't good in every other area as a translation (although I personally wouldn't use it).

Same position on all names that are conjectured for the Tetragrammaton.  I know where they come from and why someone would think they are good solutions, but I just don't think we have any idea and thus I prefer not to make one up.  Definitely a minority position and I realize that, but I find it to be the position with the most intellectual integrity. 
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 12:18:04 am
Responderunt interrogavit. Next!

No you didn't.  However, I'm guessing by that response you are admitting it's not perfect but not willing to say so.  Good to know.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: JohnBee on August 01, 2013, 12:37:28 am
I'm not sure what you mean by the bibles being erroneous...
In your previous comment you attacked Jem's position by claiming that she was using the made-up erroneous name( Jehovah) to ascribe to the original Hebrew name. And so I'm wondering what your position is toward the Bibles that make/or made use of the name Jehovah in them? and more importantly... if you feel the same way about the name Yahweh? And why?

Quote
Same position on all names that are conjectured for the Tetragrammaton.  I know where they come from and why someone would think they are good solutions, but I just don't think we have any idea and thus I prefer not to make one up.  Definitely a minority position and I realize that, but I find it to be the position with the most intellectual integrity.
It's all about the effort at this point. On the one side, we have those seeking to fulfill the scriptures(ie. John 17:26, Hebrews 12:10-12, John 17:11, Acts 2:21, 39, etc), while on the other, we have those stating that we are not entitled to even try. :/

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 12:42:56 am
In your previous comment you attacked Jem's position by claiming that she was using the made-up erroneous name( Jehovah) to ascribe to the original Hebrew name. And so I'm wondering what your position is toward the Bibles that make/or made use of the name Jehovah in them? and more importantly... if you feel the same way about the name Yahweh? And why?

I was pointing out the irony of claiming superiority when the name is made up.  Again, I think both are unwarranted names and thus shouldn't be used.  The Bibles that do so would be mistaken on that point.

Quote
It's all about the effort at this point. On the one side, we have those seeking to fulfill the scriptures(John 17:26, Hebrews 12:10-12, John 17:11, Acts 2:21, 39, etc), while on the other, we have those stating that we are not entitled to even try. :/

Right, you are all of the sudden the good people who are trying to fulfill the scriptures while I'm saying you aren't entitled to even try.  Save me the victim mentality.  The fact of the matter is we have no idea.  Period.  End of conversation.  That's a fact, like it or not.  Thus, if you want to make up names til the cows come home, you are perfectly entitled to do so (whoops, I'm supposed to be the bad guy!).  However, let's not pretend like the name has any validity or as if it's the morally superior position to make up a name and claim it's God's name and that He revealed it.  That's actually called lying and lying isn't "seeking to fulfill the scriptures" last time I checked.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 01:03:58 am
That's actually called lying and lying isn't "seeking to fulfill the scriptures" last time I checked.
Then again, what would you know about truth? You and Curt claim to be brothers in Christ, yet, worship different gods while both authoritatively claiming support for them in the Scriptures.


It's like an Abbott and Costello skit! Ridiculous!
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 01:05:26 am
What are you even talking about?  Dude, you're becoming more and more delusional across time.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on August 01, 2013, 02:18:45 am
Quote from: Jem
Why were the Israelites told to sacrifice animals with blood offerings to God if they were unacceptable?
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. Gal 3:24 NASB
The eventual aim was Jesus but without the OT sacrifices, his death on the cross wouldn't have meant to us what it does mean.

Quote from: Jem
Since Paul was quoting the OT....and the OT said Jehovah, he was indeed referring to the Father.
Wrong! Read the passage not just the one verse!
9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved
Rom 10:9-13 NASB
It is crystal clear that "Lord" in this passage is the Lord Jesus.

Quote from: Maxximiliann
there are no extant originals of the Gospels.
This statement has zero value. Should we rather trust your prejudiced opinion of what Jesus said. We don't have the originals of the Hebrew scriptures either yet you don't question "Jehovah" in Dt 6:5. Double standards. The oldest extant Hebrew OT MSS are much later than the oldest Greek NT MSS. The Massoretes only go back to around AD 500. In both cases we make use of established principles of textual criticism to recover the original text with a high degree of accuracy.

Quote from: Maxximiliann
All evidence points to the reality that Jesus and his disciples readily and freely used God's personal name, Jehovah especially since we can find it today throughout the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures Jesus and the first century witnesses of Jehovah used.
This view doesn't correspond with the facts:
Quote
Here we have an admission that the Tetragrammaton does not appear in any Greek New Testament manuscript. That is a fact that very few Jehovah's Witnesses have been told. Rather, we are offered two items for supporting why the Tetragrammaton should be there. One is a fragment from the book of Deuteronomy in Greek, which has the Sacred Name, and the other is Origen's comment on his "Hexapla". Keep in mind first of all, that both examples here cited are no longer extant versions of the Old Testament, whereas what is actually being defended is the insertion of the Tetragrammaton into the New Testament, so it is a moot point to begin with. Also, remember that the two allegedly supporting documents are translations, which the beginning of the forward made a point to relegate to the permanent status of uninspired literature.

What makes it even more difficult for the Watchtower in this matter is when we consider the sources there are citing. Origen clearly states that the Septuagint, which was by and large the Old Testament of the Christian church, did not have the Tetragrammation. Column 2, which did, he only refers to as an anonymous "transliteration into Greek". It was very likely a transliteration that was not at all accepted by the Christian church. This is particularly obvious considering that the columns 3 and 4, translations by Aquila and Symmachus, were actually created for the purpose of refuting the church's claim to fulfilled messianic prophecies. The text in Column 2 may also have been created for that purpose. This is also supported by Origen's comments that the appearance of the tetragrammaton in that text was "not in today's Hebrew [characters], but in the most ancient ones." The Name was not even in a contemporary Hebrew script. Rather it would appeared in proto-Hebrew characters. (It would have appeared as .) This delve into antiquity is reminiscent of Aquila's version, which, despite the fact that it was made in the 2nd century, tried to give the appearance that it was an ancient manuscript. It is possible that Column 2 was actually the working notes for Aquila's or Symmachis' translation. It could very well be the case that the Fouad papyri also falls into that category. Most scholars accept it as being a creation of the 2nd century, which means that it also could have be created as an "anti-missionary" tome, rather than an accepted document of the church. .

What we are left with then, is no Greek manuscripts of the New Testament at all, and no Greek translations of the Old Testament containing the Divine Name, save a few fragments of questionable origin. To use the Divine Name in the New Testament, therefore, one must deal with the contradictory evidence from over 5,000 Greek NT manuscripts and fragments, with not a single manuscript to support it. The insertion of the Divine Name by the NWT is presumption bolstered by faulty logic
For one to insist that the Divine Name was once there, but has now been removed is a dangerous position. Just imagine: If we are hypothesizing that the Tetragrammaton was completely expunged from thousands of New Testament manuscripts, and blotted out from the practice of the church within a generation of the end of the apostolic era, why should we trust any thing from these horribly altered manuscripts? Everything could very well be corrupt. Moreover, if the Divine Name could be substituted in the New Testament scripture so easily, why would anyone think that YHWH was an accurate representation of the Name God revealed to Moses? With so many fewer manuscripts in existence, a far longer period between the autographs and our extant copies of the Old Testament, we could be all but positive that YHWH is likewise just an artificial substitute for whatever the real name was.

Although this scenario may sound somewhat absurd, this isn't far from what is being suggested. Not only are all of the New Testament manuscripts considered "corrupt" by the NWT committee, but even the Old Testament texts are subject to the arbitrary opinions of the committee. In the appendix of the 1961 New World Translation (pg. 1452), the translators proudly proclaim that they changed the Hebrew word "Adonay" (Lord) into "Jehovah" 134 times without any Hebrew manuscript support. This was done on the basis that "Jewish Sopherim claimed they altered the Hebrew text". On page 1453, the committee takes credit for replacing "Elohim" with "Jehovah" seven times on the same grounds. Yet, they freely admit that they ignore the "Sopherim corruption" concept when it comes to another dozen texts that a Sopherim allegedly changed.

from http://neirr.org/Tetragrammaton.htm
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on August 01, 2013, 03:10:47 am
Like how JWs shun and don't talk to anyone who disagrees on a single point? How you can't deviate on the slightest thing without having the "love" taken away. Right...

Where do you get this stuff? Straight off an anti JW website no doubt.  ::)

We do not shun people for disagreeing. We are able to ask our elders for clarification on any doctrine we wish. We are encouraged to pray and to research our questions for ourselves.

Just as the first Christians were not permitted to interpret scripture for themselves but relied on the governing body of older men in Jerusalem to adjudicate on all matters, so JW's have a central governing body who determine our beliefs. No one is forced to accept them. It takes serious Bible study for a person to decide that they wish to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses in the first place. No one undertakes baptism without first taking in all the knowledge they need to make the decision to dedicate their lives to Jehovah as disciples of his son.

It is only when someone wants to stir up contentions and divisions within the congregations by promoting their own ideas, that action will be taken to prevent an individual from causing trouble. Expelling troublemakers, apostates and immoral people is solidly based on scripture and if you knew scripture, you would know that. (Prov 6:16-19; 2 John 8-11, 1 Cor 5:11-13)

You have not one single clue as to what it means to be a witness of Jehovah. They have been in existence for thousands of years.

After describing the faithful course of many pre-Christian men and women of faith, Paul goes on to say in Heb 12:1...."Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us"  That "great cloud of witnesses" were not witnesses of Jesus, but witnesses of Jehovah. (Isa 43:10,11)

Resorting to personal attacks on my brothers will not answer the questions that I know Christendom cannot answer by claiming that Jesus is Almighty God. The majority in Christendom accept the trinity....the majority, Jesus said, are on the wrong road.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on August 01, 2013, 03:12:56 am
Happily!



Jesus taught that the definitive way to identify the true worshipers of God was to examine their fruit. Jehovah's Witnesses are “no part of the world,” are not divided by race or culture, and display ‘love among themselves.’ (John 13:35; 17:16; Acts 10:34, 35) Rather than killing one another, they are willing to die for one another.—1 John 3:16. In fact, no other religion as multi-culturally diverse and global as the Jehovah's Witnesses enjoys the same warm brotherly love that they sincerely express for one another.

Prove that Jehovah's Witness show this love. The little I have seen of Jehovah's Witness is far from loving. The stories I've heard from people who escaped the indoctrination of the organization say it's not the paradise it may seem like. You've now taken on an even larger burden of proof, fulfill it or your whole case falls apart.

Further, there are many groups that have a worldwide presence, are relatively unified on doctrine, and so on. Methodists, for example, are generally quite unified, and they place a very high emphasis on love. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methodism#Theology_and_liturgy) Methodists are also organized and spreading the message, which is apparent considering the vast growth it's having in Asia and Africa.

Quote
Instead of being "intolerant and divisive," true religion, based on the Bible, is "broadly inclusive." The apostle Peter said: "God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him."—Acts 10:34, 35. With over 7.5 MILLION+ members in 239 lands we are a worldwide brotherhood united in loving, peaceful worship of Jesus' God, Jehovah. The love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness and faith you'll experience there is so deep, profound and moving it's palpable. It's like being in Paradise.

The World Methodist Council boasts 75 million+ members around the globe, in 132 countries around the world.


Quote
The Encyclopedia of Early Christianity states: “The early church saw itself as one new humanity in which previously hostile groups, Jews and Gentiles, could live together in one body of peace.” Jehovah’s Witnesses also are a peace-loving international brotherhood—truly a new world society. (Ephesians 2:11-18; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 3:13) When the chief security officer of the Pretoria Show Grounds in South Africa saw how Witnesses of all races met there peaceably as convention delegates, he said: “Everyone was and is courteous, people speaking nicely to one another, the attitude displayed the past few days—it all testifies to the calibre of the members of your society, and that all live together like one happy family.” - “They Keep On Walking in the Truth”

So too are the Methodists. They value peace so much, in fact, that it's a center piece of their teachings. The highest honor bestowed by Methodists around the world is, in fact, a peace prize! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Methodist_Council#Peace_award)

Quote
“It is noteworthy that even these reliable contemporaries [Czech and Slovak Jewish survivors] have with marked admiration testified in favor of prisoners from among Jehovah’s Witnesses. ‘They were very courageous people, who were always helping us in whatever way they could, although running the risk of execution,’ many commented. ‘They prayed for us, as though we belonged to their family; they encouraged us not to give up.’” - “Severočeský Deník

“All through my sickness [the Witnesses] were diligent nurses. I could not have wished for better care, especially under camp conditions. Jehovah’s Witnesses consider it their duty to help everyone, regardless of religion or nationality.” - “Women in Soviet Prisons”


“They refuse any form of violence and without rebelling put up with the many trials inflicted on them because of their beliefs . . . How different the world would be if we all woke up one morning firmly decided not to take up arms again, whatever the cost or the reason, just like Jehovah’s Witnesses!” - “Andare Alle Genti”


“I have come to the conclusion that if Jehovah’s Witnesses were the only ones living on the earth, wars would cease to exist, and the only duties of the policemen would be to control traffic and to issue passports.” - “Gyűrű”


“Suffice it to say that if all the world lived by the creed of the Jehovah Witnesses there would be an end of bloodshed and hatred, and love would reign as king!”- “The Sacramento Union”

Very cool, doesn't mean you're special, at all. We're not here for you to brag about how cool your church is. Please only bring up things directly relevant to why your church is the only right one.

Quote
Of the very first Christians many were forced to acknowledge, "See, said they, how they love one another, and are ready to lay down their lives for each other." (Tertulian, Apology c. 39) The facts shows that the same can be said of Jehovah's Witnesses today.

This could be said for many denominations and cults as well (especially cults, lol).
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on August 01, 2013, 03:26:49 am
Quote from: Jem
Why were the Israelites told to sacrifice animals with blood offerings to God if they were unacceptable?
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. Gal 3:24 NASB
The eventual aim was Jesus but without the OT sacrifices, hid death on the cross wouldn't have meant to us what it does mean.

??? What are you talking about? The animal sacrifices were a temporary blood sacrifice that atoned for Israel's sin whilst they awaited their Messiah. His rule was to set Israel free to become the "kingdom of priests and a holy nation". The freedom Jesus offered them was not political so they rejected him.

Quote
Quote from: Jem
Since Paul was quoting the OT....and the OT said Jehovah, he was indeed referring to the Father.
Wrong! Read the passage not just the one verse!
9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved
Rom 10:9-13 NASB
It is crystal clear that "Lord" in this passage is the Lord Jesus.

"The LORD" in verse 13 is the same LORD that Joel spoke about. Joel wrote the tetragrammaton in that verse...it wasn't Jesus, it was Jehovah.

Joel clearly says..."And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered"
(ASV)

Quote
Quote from: Maxximiliann
there are no extant originals of the Gospels.
This statement has zero value. Should we rather trust your prejudiced opinion of what Jesus said. We don't have the originals of the Hebrew scriptures either yet you don't question "Jehovah" in Dt 6:5. Double standards. The oldest extant Hebrew OT MSS are much later than the oldest Greek NT MSS. The Massoretes only go back to around AD 500. In both cases we make use of established principles of textual criticism to recover the original text with a high degree of accuracy.

And you know the reason why the tetragrammaton was substituted by a title in the OT. You support the erroneous tradition of faithless Jews over Jesus' clear statements about his Fathers name? Your choice. But Jesus didn't say "Hallowed be thy title"  ::)


Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on August 01, 2013, 04:59:46 am
Jem,
I think you are close to making real progress.

Quote from: lapwing
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.  Gal 3:24 NASB
The eventual aim was Jesus but without the OT sacrifices, his death on the cross wouldn't have meant to us what it does mean.

Quote from: Jem
The animal sacrifices were a temporary blood sacrifice that atoned for Israel's sin whilst they awaited their Messiah. His rule was to set Israel free to become the "kingdom of priests and a holy nation". The freedom Jesus offered them was not political so they rejected him.

These two statements are not contradictory but complementary i.e. both are true. Gal 3:24 is from the Bible.

Quote from: Jem
The LORD" in verse 13 is the same LORD that Joel spoke about. Joel wrote the tetragrammaton in that verse...it wasn't Jesus, it was Jehovah.
Again you're nearly there. I'll cite the passage again and add where Jesus is referred to.

9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” [Jesus] and believe in your heart that God raised him [Jesus]from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him [Jesus] will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord [Jesus]is Lord of all [Jesus] and richly blesses all who call on him [Jesus], 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord [Jesus=Jehovah] will be savedRom 10:9-13 NASB

You're absolutely right that Joel meant Jehovah. Paul knew this of course. In this passage Lord means Jesus and the whole point of the Joel quotation is that Paul is applying it to Jesus. So one can conclude that Paul thought that Jesus was Jehovah and so should we since this is the inspired word of God. At no point in this passage does Paul indicate he is talking about someone different. Believe what the Bible says.

Quote
And you know the reason why the tetragrammaton was substituted by a title in the OT.
Don't you mean the NT?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 07:34:19 am
What are you even talking about? 
You and Curt preach a contradictory teaching, one that even contradicts Scripture. It cannot, therefore, be truth but falsehood.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 07:41:12 am
Quote from: Maxximiliann
there are no extant originals of the Gospels.
This statement has zero value.
So, instead, we are to believe the Gospel writers mendaciously supplanted God's name with "LORD"wherever it appeared in the Hebrew Scriptures.


Pray for God's holy spirit then reflect on what you're claiming ...
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 07:58:15 am
Happily!



Jesus taught that the definitive way to identify the true worshipers of God was to examine their fruit. Jehovah's Witnesses are “no part of the world,” are not divided by race or culture, and display ‘love among themselves.’ (John 13:35; 17:16; Acts 10:34, 35) Rather than killing one another, they are willing to die for one another.—1 John 3:16. In fact, no other religion as multi-culturally diverse and global as the Jehovah's Witnesses enjoys the same warm brotherly love that they sincerely express for one another.

Quote
Prove that Jehovah's Witness show this love.
Simple, go visit the Jehovah's Witnesses in your area at your local Kingdom Hall and see for yourself.


Quote
relatively unified on doctrine
Is that like how a woman can be kinda pregnant?


Quote
They value peace so much, in fact, that it's a center piece of their teachings.
Which is why Methodists refuse military service, right?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 08:01:13 am
So one can conclude that Paul thought that Jesus was Jehovah and so should we
Which contradictory version of the Trinity are you defending, AAQ's, Curt's or a different one altogether?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on August 01, 2013, 08:30:34 am
Jesus taught that the definitive way to identify the true worshipers of God was to examine their fruit. Jehovah's Witnesses are “no part of the world,” are not divided by race or culture, and display ‘love among themselves.’ (John 13:35; 17:16; Acts 10:34, 35) Rather than killing one another, they are willing to die for one another.—1 John 3:16. In fact, no other religion as multi-culturally diverse and global as the Jehovah's Witnesses enjoys the same warm brotherly love that they sincerely express for one another.
Sounds like a fair description of the Mennonites to me.  Except that they extend this love to all others, and refuse to hurt or harm others even when attacked.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on August 01, 2013, 08:34:59 am
Quote
If the stated belief is itself a strawman
So you don't understand the term either. "Strawman" is about how you represent another's words: it's got nothing to do with what you believe.
Sorry, Lapwing, but you don't get it.

They have full and perfect knowledge of God's will and intention, so reading a passage different from how God-and-the-JWs read it is wilful misrepresentation of God-and-the-JWs' position.

After all, you could have asked the JWs and they would gladly have explained the true meaning of the passage to you, couldn't you?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on August 01, 2013, 08:58:50 am
No I don't, because I never said Jehovah wasn't used in the original Gospel recordings. I find it very possible and certainly plausible that it was.
Hi Curt,

I disagree about the plausibility.  That would imply God had not preserved His Word from corruption - even if the originals were still to turn up, their content would have been completely unavailable for some 2000 years.

And how would all those disparate churches and sects have conspired to expunge the Name?  Remember that our oldest manuscripts are way older than any world-wide organised church, and that all manner of sects with divergent views and their own manuscripts had sprung up - e.g. the Marcionites.
We have manuscripts from many different traditions and wide geographic divergence, and none of them have the least indication that a change on this front has occurred.  (Many manuscripts have asterisci and obeli to indicate that variants exist, or marks from the various correctors.)

On the contrary, the fact that Marcion, who died in 160, could claim that the OT God was not the NT God shows that the Tetragrammaton was not in the NT (or at least in the writings that he recognised).  If anything, the orthodox opposition to him would rather have led to it being inserted than it being expunged from the NT text.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 10:37:10 am
Like how JWs shun and don't talk to anyone who disagrees on a single point? How you can't deviate on the slightest thing without having the "love" taken away. Right...

Where do you get this stuff? Straight off an anti JW website no doubt.  ::)

Actually, I've never even visited one.  Further, it's kind of ironic that you get stuff from JWs themselves so much but act like other people can't use websites.

Quote
We do not shun people for disagreeing.

Right, all of the people are just lying.  Maybe Raymond Franz would be an important person to bring up.

Quote
We are able to ask our elders for clarification on any doctrine we wish. We are encouraged to pray and to research our questions for ourselves.

Yep, and if you come to a different conclusion on the slightest matter, then you are kicked out.

Quote
Just as the first Christians were not permitted to interpret scripture for themselves but relied on the governing body of older men in Jerusalem to adjudicate on all matters, so JW's have a central governing body who determine our beliefs. No one is forced to accept them. It takes serious Bible study for a person to decide that they wish to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses in the first place. No one undertakes baptism without first taking in all the knowledge they need to make the decision to dedicate their lives to Jehovah as disciples of his son.

And this gets to the heart of the matter.  Ultimately, it doesn't matter what the bible says or what proper exegesis says since the governing body told you what to believe.  You've been given your orders and you'll follow them whether the bible gets in the way or not.

Quote
It is only when someone wants to stir up contentions and divisions within the congregations by promoting their own ideas, that action will be taken to prevent an individual from causing trouble. Expelling troublemakers, apostates and immoral people is solidly based on scripture and if you knew scripture, you would know that. (Prov 6:16-19; 2 John 8-11, 1 Cor 5:11-13)

Again, disagreeing on the slightest matter gets you kicked out.  Exactly what I said.

Quote
You have not one single clue as to what it means to be a witness of Jehovah. They have been in existence for thousands of years.

False.  The founder was Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916).  To say anything else is dishonest.

Quote
After describing the faithful course of many pre-Christian men and women of faith, Paul goes on to say in Heb 12:1...."Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us"  That "great cloud of witnesses" were not witnesses of Jesus, but witnesses of Jehovah. (Isa 43:10,11)

lol, right.  They didn't believe in the ridiculous things you did. It's quite clear that Paul, John, etc. didn't deny that Jesus is God like you do.  Thus, I guess they aren't part of you guys.

Quote
Resorting to personal attacks on my brothers will not answer the questions that I know Christendom cannot answer by claiming that Jesus is Almighty God. The majority in Christendom accept the trinity....the majority, Jesus said, are on the wrong road.

There were no personal attacks, only facts.  What questions?  The ones you presented are either strawmen or have been answered.  Let's not pretend like they haven't.  Jesus said the majority of christians were on the wrong road?! When did He even say the word Christians?  I want it to say exactly "the majority of Christians are on the wrong road" in English in fact.  Anything else will not do!  (Here I'm parodying you if you didn't catch on.)  The fact is the bible speaks for itself that Jesus is God and you have yet to engage the OP at all (and you probably didn't read it).
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Biep on August 01, 2013, 01:54:03 pm
Responderunt interrogavit.
Huh?
"They have answered; he has interrogated"?

Sorry, but what is that supposed to mean?  Do you mean "sic respondeo quod rogavisti", or "quod rogavisti adhinc responsus est", or something else?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on August 01, 2013, 04:00:01 pm
Hi Biep
It comes in Gen 43:7 where Joseph's brothers report to Jacob being questioned by Joseph.

Quote from: Biep
Sorry, Lapwing, but you don't get it.
They have full and perfect knowledge of God's will and intention, so reading a passage different from how God-and-the-JWs read it is wilful misrepresentation of God-and-the-JWs' position.
After all, you could have asked the JWs and they would gladly have explained the true meaning of the passage to you, couldn't you?
Have you got a part playing Winston Smith in 1984! LoL.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on August 01, 2013, 04:07:20 pm
Simple, go visit the Jehovah's Witnesses in your area at your local Kingdom Hall and see for yourself.

Not near one, and literally every single Jehovah's Witness I've met online was anywhere from moderately unpleasant to can't even stand to be around. The anecdotal evidence I have of Jehovah's Witness certainly does not corroborate your claim that they are loving. Furthermore, I've seen some of the deconversion stories where people leave Jehovah's Witness. They further reinforce the notion that Jehovah's Witness aren't exactly a paradise.

Quote
Is that like how a woman can be kinda pregnant?

False analogy.

Quote
Which is why Methodists refuse military service, right?

That is left up to each Methodist.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on August 01, 2013, 04:07:55 pm
Maxximiliann,

Quote
You and Curt preach a contradictory teaching, one that even contradicts Scripture. It cannot, therefore, be truth but falsehood.
You've given up the argument now then?

Quote
So, instead, we are to believe the Gospel writers mendaciously supplanted God's name with "LORD"wherever it appeared in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Or we could believe that the NT writers were not as stupidly psychotic about a made up name (Jehovah) as you are. Rather they got on with love and obedience ... oh and God inspired them to write the NT.

Quote
Which contradictory version of the Trinity are you defending, AAQ's, Curt's or a different one altogether?
You're getting more and more desperate.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 04:15:07 pm
Jesus taught that the definitive way to identify the true worshipers of God was to examine their fruit. Jehovah's Witnesses are “no part of the world,” are not divided by race or culture, and display ‘love among themselves.’ (John 13:35; 17:16; Acts 10:34, 35) Rather than killing one another, they are willing to die for one another.—1 John 3:16. In fact, no other religion as multi-culturally diverse and global as the Jehovah's Witnesses enjoys the same warm brotherly love that they sincerely express for one another.
Sounds like a fair description of the Mennonites to me.  Except that they extend this love to all others, and refuse to hurt or harm others even when attacked.
How long have you been a Mennonite?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: lapwing on August 01, 2013, 04:15:22 pm
Hi Curt,

Quote
I want it to say exactly "the majority of Christians are on the wrong road" in English in fact.  Anything else will not do!
Laugh of the day - thanks Curt.

I want it to say "Now look you misguided people in Christendom, I'm God right. Yeah Jesus was quite a guy but if you think I'm going to share my throne with Him then you've got me completely wrong. Heaven isn't some kind of love in, it's dog eat dog, or should that be God eat God? Now where's that Holy Spirit power light switch so that I can find my lost thunderbolt"
That's the JW model of heaven. Thank goodness it's not true.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 04:39:40 pm
Simple, go visit the Jehovah's Witnesses in your area at your local Kingdom Hall and see for yourself.

Not near one.
Do you drive?


Quote
The anecdotal evidence I have of Jehovah's Witness certainly does not corroborate your claim that they are loving.
Did you compare this evidence with the hard facts I've shared with you?


Quote
That is left up to each Methodist.
So instead of practicing "one faith", speaking in agreement, being free from divisions and 'being fitly united in the same mind and the same line of thought', "Christ exists divided" among you. (Ephesians 4:3,5; 1 Corinthians 1:10,13)


Like I said, poisonous fruit from a rotten tree ... (Revelation 2:14-16)



Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 04:40:56 pm
Lol.  So unless you are brainwashed to not disagree with your rulers on the slightest thing, then that shows you aren't Christians...right!

I'm just still waiting for someone to actually engage my exegesis.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 04:43:44 pm
Maxximiliann,


Quote
Which contradictory version of the Trinity are you defending, AAQ's, Curt's or a different one altogether?
Quote
You're getting more and more desperate.

Argumentum ignoratio elenchi. Do try and stay on point.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on August 01, 2013, 04:47:33 pm
Simple, go visit the Jehovah's Witnesses in your area at your local Kingdom Hall and see for yourself.

Not near one, and literally every single Jehovah's Witness I've met online was anywhere from moderately unpleasant to can't even stand to be around.

Funny, but the first Christians were not exactly well received either. Something about Jesus saying that his disciples would be "hated" and "spoken against" because of doing what Jesus and his apostles did. They spoke the truth with boldness and exposed the false teachings of the Pharisees. They were not exactly welcomed with open arms. (1Thess 2:2-4; John 15:18-20; Acts 28:22)  :o

Quote
The anecdotal evidence I have of Jehovah's Witness certainly does not corroborate your claim that they are loving. Furthermore, I've seen some of the deconversion stories where people leave Jehovah's Witness. They further reinforce the notion that Jehovah's Witness aren't exactly a paradise.

Ever been on the receiving end of a disgruntled "ex"? Did they paint you as the good guy?

Read Paul's words about the effect of discipline on those God cared enough about to correct them....(Heb 12:7-11)

There is little to no discipline administered in the churches today. If there was, you would hear the outcry all over the world. The result is churches full of hypocrites who sit there knowing that they are continuing to break God's laws and are getting away with it...or so they think.  :-\

We implement the Scriptural recommendation to keep the congregation spiritually and morally clean. The shepherds are authorised by God to "judge" those "inside" the congregations whilst He judges those "outside". (1 Cor 5:9-13)

How many churches do you know of who follow this scriptural recommendation? If they did, the churches would be empty.  :(

Quote
Quote
Which is why Methodists refuse military service, right?

That is left up to each Methodist.

Scriptural commands are not left up to the individual.

"Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you" is not negotiable. (Matt 5:43-48; 1John 4:20,21)

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Keith_ on August 01, 2013, 04:51:31 pm
458 Posts and this one simple little question isn't resolved yet??
I wish I had time to read all the posts between the one I made and #458. :)
-Keith
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 04:55:17 pm
458 Posts and this one simple little question isn't resolved yet??
I wish I had time to read all the posts between the one I made and #458. :)
-Keith

Well, to shorten your time, nobody has responded to my exegesis.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on August 01, 2013, 04:56:42 pm
Funny, but the first Christians were not exactly well received either. Something about Jesus saying that his disciples would be "hated" and "spoken against" because of doing what Jesus and his apostles did. They spoke the truth with boldness and exposed the false teachings of the Pharisees. They were not exactly welcomed with open arms. (1Thess 2:2-4; John 15:18-20; Acts 28:22)  :o

Jem, I wasn't saying Jehovah's Witness were poorly received, I said they acted poor. In my experiences with you and Max, for example, you've both been incredibly rude, judgmental, dogmatic, and unwilling to give your opponent a fair chance. Jem, that's not me receiving you poorly, that you behaving poorly, there's a very fine and important different.

Quote
Ever been on the receiving end of a disgruntled "ex"? Did they paint you as the good guy?

Ever heard of a business that didn't paint themselves as the good guy? The sword cuts both ways.

Quote
Read Paul's words about the effect of discipline on those God cared enough about to correct them....(Heb 12:7-11)

How is this relevant?

Quote
There is little to no discipline administered in the churches today. If there was, you would hear the outcry all over the world. The result is churches full of hypocrites who sit there knowing that they are continuing to break God's laws and are getting away with it...or so they think.  :-\

Okay... That doesn't mean Jehovah's Witness aren't just another minor cult of false teachers serving Satan. That's what we're discussing here, why are you correct? Tearing down some of the other churches does nothing to make your church correct.

Quote
We implement the Scriptural recommendation to keep the congregation spiritually and morally clean. The shepherds are authorised by God to "judge" those "inside" the congregations whilst He judges those "outside". (1 Cor 5:9-13)

Jem, try to stay on topic please.

Quote
How many churches do you know of who follow this scriptural recommendation? If they did, the churches would be empty.  :(

Ugh...

Quote
Scriptural commands are not left up to the individual.

"Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you" is not negotiable. (Matt 5:43-48; 1John 4:20,21)

Is that your only scriptural evidence? Seriously? Ugh.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Keith_ on August 01, 2013, 05:05:50 pm
458 Posts and this one simple little question isn't resolved yet??
I wish I had time to read all the posts between the one I made and #458. :)
-Keith

Well, to shorten your time, nobody has responded to my exegesis.
What's the post number?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 05:07:28 pm
458 Posts and this one simple little question isn't resolved yet??
I wish I had time to read all the posts between the one I made and #458. :)
-Keith

Well, to shorten your time, nobody has responded to my exegesis.
What's the post number?

The OP (the first three posts in the thread).
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on August 01, 2013, 05:18:19 pm
James 1:19

19 My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,


Just a friendly reminder. Am showing love to both sides here.  ;)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on August 01, 2013, 05:31:52 pm
Quote from: Maxx
You and Curt preach a contradictory teaching, one that even contradicts Scripture. It cannot, therefore, be truth but falsehood.
You've given up the argument now then?

Are you serious?  :o The very scriptures you quote are proof for the opposing argument. You will have to do better than that.

Quote
Quote
So, instead, we are to believe the Gospel writers mendaciously supplanted God's name with "LORD"wherever it appeared in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Or we could believe that the NT writers were not as stupidly psychotic about a made up name (Jehovah) as you are. Rather they got on with love and obedience ... oh and God inspired them to write the NT.

Now just supposing for a moment that JW's teach the truth and promote the name (in English) that God gave to his people, (YHWH) Christians all over the world say the divine name in their own language....hundreds of them...does God reject all of them too? Should we rewrite the whole Bible in English and all those other languages because people like you have a problem with pronunciation? How many English Bibles would need to be discarded because there was no "J" names in Hebrew?  ???

All the "J" names, including Jesus are false according to your reasoning. Where is your protest about Jesus' name? According to you, he is God, yet you do not baulk at his name in English. Strange eh?

Quote
Quote
Which contradictory version of the Trinity are you defending, AAQ's, Curt's or a different one altogether?
You're getting more and more desperate.

He made a valid point. Trinitarians cannot even agree on their own beliefs. Which version of the trinity do you support? Seriously....

Please wake up.  :(
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 05:32:49 pm
Still waiting for you to engage my exegesis, Jem.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on August 01, 2013, 05:49:47 pm
James 1:19

19 My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,


Just a friendly reminder. Am showing love to both sides here.  ;)
love ya Snooch   :-* thanks for the reminder.  ;)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on August 01, 2013, 06:14:39 pm
James 1:19

19 My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,


Just a friendly reminder. Am showing love to both sides here.  ;)
love ya Snooch   :-* thanks for the reminder.  ;)

No worries :)

Look at the end of the day, wether you love the Lord your God or wether you love Jehovah your God, to me you are all directing your love to the same deity. I may be wrong, but from where I am sitting, you all love God and I hate the bitterness that is going on.

Again I'm probably out of place but and not up to scratch yet again on theology or greek literature, but the message that is being portrayed seems to be the same, and there are alot of hurting people in the world who could really use the message that is being portrayed and who could really use the Lord/Jehovah/God in their life right now.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 06:25:42 pm
They reject God though. They reject who Jesus really is. There's Also no debate as they have yet to even interact with my exegesis.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 06:31:33 pm
458 Posts and this one simple little question isn't resolved yet??
I wish I had time to read all the posts between the one I made and #458. :)
-Keith
Allow me to summarize: This is what the Bible actually teaches -

Jesus never claimed to be Jehovah God. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way—not in power, not in knowledge, not in age.


In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God.


Time and again, Jesus showed that he was a creature separate from God and that he, Jesus, had a God above him, a God whom he worshiped, a God whom he called "Father." In prayer to God, that is, the Father, Jesus said, "You, the only true God." (John 17:3) At John 20:17 he said to Mary Magdalene: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (RS, Catholic edition) At 2 Corinthians 1:3 the apostle Paul confirms this relationship: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." Since Jesus had a God, his Father, he could not at the same time be that God.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 06:34:17 pm
The majority of those passages or ones like them are addressed in the op. The others are strawmen or bad exegesis (like proverbs 8 ). I've also explained them to you with no response. That's called invincible ignorance.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 06:43:21 pm
Funny, but the first Christians were not exactly well received either. Something about Jesus saying that his disciples would be "hated" and "spoken against" because of doing what Jesus and his apostles did. They spoke the truth with boldness and exposed the false teachings of the Pharisees. They were not exactly welcomed with open arms. (1Thess 2:2-4; John 15:18-20; Acts 28:22)  :o

Quote
Jem, I wasn't saying Jehovah's Witness were poorly received, I said they acted poor. In my experiences with you and Max, for example, you've both been incredibly rude, judgmental, dogmatic, and unwilling to give your opponent a fair chance. Jem, that's not me receiving you poorly, that you behaving poorly, there's a very fine and important different.
Yet, everyone who even appears to agree with you is polite, agreeable, open-minded and fair-minded ...


Hey, at least you're honest about your prejudice ...


Quote
That doesn't mean Jehovah's Witness aren't just another minor cult of false teachers serving Satan.
Careful now. “Anyone pronouncing the righteous one wicked [is] something detestable to Jehovah.” - Proverbs 17:15.
[/size]
Quote
[/size]Is that your only scriptural evidence? Seriously? Ugh.
Argumentum ad lapidem. You've done nothing to dispel the argument presented nor the facts that support it. Try again.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on August 01, 2013, 07:29:54 pm
Yet, everyone who even appears to agree with you is polite, agreeable, open-minded and fair-minded ...

I never once said that, stop putting words in my mouth. I have not been reading the vast majority of their posts and so cannot vouch for their behavior.

Quote
Hey, at least you're honest about your prejudice ...

What prejudices?

Quote
Careful now. “Anyone pronouncing the righteous one wicked [is] something detestable to Jehovah.” - Proverbs 17:15.

I could say the same to you. I've been called a pawn of Satan by more than one Jehovah's Witness (two of which are in this conversation). You seem to be able to dish it, but not take it.

Quote
Argumentum ad lapidem. You've done nothing to dispel the argument presented nor the facts that support it. Try again.

Do I have to? You do realize that me and Jem have had this exact conversation before, right? You do realize that I did engage her on the topic, right? Of course not, you're interjecting into a conversation to defend your buddy, you didn't think things through first or bother to guess at why I might not engage on the issue.

Max, if there's one thing that can be said of me that is positive, it's that I always try to engage my opponent's claims. Every verse you've given (to me) I've at least tried to respond to (successfully or not, that's up to you). The reason I'm not responding to Jem is because, frankly, last time we had this conversation she insulted me and I don't want to go there again. Basically, a self-defense discussion turned into a discussion on whether or not people should own guns. This prompted Jem to make a statement along the lines of "you're an American, there's no point in discussing this with you".
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 07:51:45 pm
I've been called a pawn of Satan by more than one Jehovah's Witness (two of which are in this conversation).
"Wounds from a sincere friend are better than many kisses from an enemy." -Proverbs 27:6


Despite what you may think, it not for the profound love we have for our fellowman we would not be exerting ourselves as much as we do to share the Good News of God's Kingdom with as many individuals as possible.


In effect, all we desire is for you to sincerely evaluate the fruit your church produces along with the rest of Christendom and compare it with the fruitage Christ indicated his sedulous followers would necessarily produce.


Have you ever done so?


Quote
You do realize that I did engage her on the topic, right?
No, I was not aware. Can you link me to that thread? :)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 07:55:19 pm
I love how what the bible teaches about this topic is now being ignored.  Maybe that's a sign of seeing that all is lost on that front for them (which is also confirmed by no interaction with my exegesis even in the other thread where I narrowed it down to one passage).
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on August 01, 2013, 08:19:28 pm
Quote from: Curt
What prejudices?

LOL  ;D

Quote
I've been called a pawn of Satan by more than one Jehovah's Witness (two of which are in this conversation). You seem to be able to dish it, but not take it.

Hmmm, must be another JW on here that I don't know about.... ???

Since when have I ever personally called you anything?

Quote from: Curt
The reason I'm not responding to Jem is because, frankly, last time we had this conversation she insulted me and I don't want to go there again.

Oh, big bad Jem  (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-taunt015.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) Good grief! 

I have difficulty with this kind of attitude from women, let alone grown men. I'm sorry if the Aussie directness comes off as insulting....I can assure you, that I am not here to insult anyone. You have done your own fair share of insulting Curt, but I guess you haven't noticed that because I have not responded like a girl.  (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sad025.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Quote
Basically, a self-defense discussion turned into a discussion on whether or not people should own guns. This prompted Jem to make a statement along the lines of "you're an American, there's no point in discussing this with you".
That hit a nerve, did it?

Actually what I pointed out was that America's love affair with weapons is somewhat of an ingrained thing from birth, left over from the Wild West, and that it was pointless trying to have a rational discussion about gun ownership with someone who is brainwashed about a subject that no other civilized country seems to the same kind of attitude about. Jesus said 'if you live by the sword, you will die by the sword'....America is proof of that. Check the stats.   :(
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 08:31:06 pm
Lol.  "left over from the wild west" What a joke as a statement of historical fact.  Also, good job taking Jesus' statement completely out of context.  Congrats.

Still waiting on you to engage my exegesis.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 08:54:50 pm
Also, good job taking Jesus' statement completely out of context. 
Falsum crimen de fallacia:

The neutrality of the early Christians in relation to the political and military affairs of the world is an established fact of history. It was in harmony with Jesus’ refusal to be made a king by the crowds (John 6:15) and with his statement to Pilate that his kingdom was no part of the world. (John 18:36)


Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., in his "Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew" (CX): "We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons, - our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage." (The Ante-Nicene Father, Vol. I. p. 254)








In his treatise "The Chaplet, or De Corona" (XI), when discussing "whether warfare is proper at all for Christians," Tertullian (c. 200 C.E.) used the scriptures to show the unlawfulness of a military life itself, concluding, "I banish from us the military life." (The Ante-Nicene Father, 1957, Vol. III. pp. 99,100)


The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes (p. 333) says: "A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C. E], no Christian became a soldier, and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service."


The Early Church and the World by C. J. Cadoux (pp. 275, 276) says: "It will be seen presently that the evidence for the existence of a single Christian soldier between 60 and about 165 A.D. is exceedingly slight; . . . up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least, no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism."


A Short History of Rome, by G. Ferrero and C. Barbagallo (p. 382) says: "In the second century, Christianity . . . had affirmed the incompatibility of military service with Christianity."


Our World Through the Ages, by N. Platt and M. J. Drummond (p. 125) says: "The behavior of the Christians was very different from that of the Romans. . . . Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers."


The New World’s Foundations in the Old, by R. and W. M. West ( p. 131) says: "The first Christians thought it was wrong to fight, and would not serve in the army even when the Empire needed soldiers."


"Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177," by F. P. G. Guizot, in the book The Great Events by Famous Historians (edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246) says: "The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service."


Finally, the famous historian Edward Gibbon wrote in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (Vol. I, p. 416): "While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes."


Their stand was also in harmony with one of the things that Jesus said would identify his true followers, the love that they would display toward one another. (John 13:34, 35) This love was to be shown without regard to race or nationality, since God is not partial. (Acts 10:34, 35) It was even to be shown toward those that hated them. (Mat. 5:44, 45) This was to be a serious matter, for the apostle John later wrote that if someone claimed to love God, yet hated his spiritual brother, he was a liar. (1 John 4:20) Most religions today preach love and peace, yet Jesus showed that actions were more important than words, saying that no matter what a person claimed you would recognize him by the "fruits" that he bore. (Mat. 7:13 - 23)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 08:56:46 pm
That didn't respond to what I said at all.  Also, still waiting for you to engage my exegesis in the OP.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on August 01, 2013, 09:01:25 pm
Lol.  "left over from the wild west" What a joke as a statement of historical fact.  Also, good job taking Jesus' statement completely out of context.  Congrats.

Still waiting on you to engage my exegesis.

AAQ, do what you did with John 20:28 and take the scriptures one at a time. You might get what you want instead of continually whining about "your" exegesis. OK? It's too much to respond to all at once.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 09:02:51 pm
Lol.  "left over from the wild west" What a joke as a statement of historical fact.  Also, good job taking Jesus' statement completely out of context.  Congrats.

Still waiting on you to engage my exegesis.

AAQ, do what you did with John 20:28 and take the scriptures one at a time. You might get what you want instead of continually whining about "your" exegesis. OK? It's too much to respond to all at once.

You haven't even responded to my exegesis on John 20.28 so it looks like your strategy wouldn't work.  Nonetheless, you are free to engage any of them. 
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on August 01, 2013, 09:07:45 pm

You haven't even responded to my exegesis on John 20.28 so it looks like your strategy wouldn't work.  Nonetheless, you are free to engage any of them.

Yes I did,  http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/john-20.2729-focusing-single-passage-6022444.msg1275167648.html#msg1275167648 (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/john-20.2729-focusing-single-passage-6022444.msg1275167648.html#msg1275167648)

How much "engagement" would you like?  ???
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 09:18:42 pm

You haven't even responded to my exegesis on John 20.28 so it looks like your strategy wouldn't work.  Nonetheless, you are free to engage any of them.

Yes I did,  http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/john-20.2729-focusing-single-passage-6022444.msg1275167648.html#msg1275167648 (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/john-20.2729-focusing-single-passage-6022444.msg1275167648.html#msg1275167648)

How much "engagement" would you like?  ???

And absolutely none of it engaged my exegesis at all.  That's clear for anyone to see.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on August 01, 2013, 09:26:18 pm
"Wounds from a sincere friend are better than many kisses from an enemy." -Proverbs 27:6


Despite what you may think, it not for the profound love we have for our fellowman we would not be exerting ourselves as much as we do to share the Good News of God's Kingdom with as many individuals as possible.

Yeah, that doesn't matter. Such insults will not help me see the truth.

Quote
In effect, all we desire is for you to sincerely evaluate the fruit your church produces along with the rest of Christendom and compare it with the fruitage Christ indicated his sedulous followers would necessarily produce.

Have you ever done so?

My church produces well, in my opinion, compared to the rest of Christendom and various Christian cults. Of course I'm biased, but that's my opinion.

Quote
No, I was not aware. Can you link me to that thread? :)

This was months ago, I'd have to search through my thousands of posts in my post history. Is it really necessary? Jem will probably recall our discussion about gun laws in specific, ask her if you do not believe me. Or, search through my post history (probably 600+ posts back) using the keyword "Jem" and look at one of our dialogues. You'll find it eventually.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on August 01, 2013, 09:27:45 pm
Excuse my ignorance here Jem.

When Thomas states "my Lord and my God" Do you interpret this as 'My Lord' referencing Jesus 'and my God' to reference Jesus as a lesser god?

If anyone were to say to me 'my God', should I need to ask what God that is, the true one or the lesser one?

Jesus states here “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” using the Father at the start so we know what this means.

Should Thomas have also said that to clarify exactly what he meant?

Again, I understand 'there are many gods' but we are to have one God. I'm not sure how many Christians go around saying they believe in many gods or even if that is ok by Christian standards.

Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 09:29:16 pm
Yeah Paul is saying that people claim many gods there.  It's possibly recalling a regular Jewish thought that the pagan gods were actually demons in disguise.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on August 01, 2013, 09:36:18 pm
LOL  ;D

Care to let the rest of us in on the thing which you find hilarious? I never once said that the people on my side behave any better than the people on the other side. In fact, I never even said that I behave better than Jehovah's Witness. So, pray tell, what prejudice do I have that is lol worthy?

Quote
Hmmm, must be another JW on here that I don't know about.... ???

Since when have I ever personally called you anything?

Multiple times in past conversations. That's not a stretch. You frequently talk about how Trinitarians are worshiping a false God and that any worship directed anywhere but towards God is towards the devil. Thus, you say we worship the devil. You also say we're being used by Satan.

Quote
I have difficulty with this kind of attitude from women, let alone grown men.

What kind of attitude? I don't like having discussions with people who are unpleasant to have discussions with.

Quote
I'm sorry if the Aussie directness comes off as insulting....I can assure you, that I am not here to insult anyone. You have done your own fair share of insulting Curt, but I guess you haven't noticed that because I have not responded like a girl. 

I know that full well. I never once claimed I acted any better than anyone else. But, there is a stark difference, Jem. I don't call people pawns of Satan or things like that. If I am rude to anyone, it's only in response to their rudeness. That doesn't justify it, but it's true.

Quote
That hit a nerve, did it?

Yes, it's bigotry. That is a bigoted comment, no different than "you're a black person, you can't understand".

Quote
Actually what I pointed out was that America's love affair with weapons is somewhat of an ingrained thing from birth, left over from the Wild West, and that it was pointless trying to have a rational discussion about gun ownership with someone who is brainwashed about a subject that no other civilized country seems to the same kind of attitude about. Jesus said 'if you live by the sword, you will die by the sword'....America is proof of that. Check the stats.   :(

Right, that's bigotry. You're assuming that because I was born in America, that therefore I'm not capable of rationally discussing the issue. Oh no, he's an American, he obviously can't be right about guns, or have a decent reason for his thoughts about them.

I could have said: "Who am I kidding? You're a women, you're too emotional to have a rational discussion about guns." That is precisely equal to what you've said to me.

For the record, gun ownership has nothing to do with the wild west. You don't have a clue. Firstly, the wild west was only in the west (that's why it's called the wild west), and yet gun ownership is celebrated all over the USA. In reality, the desire for guns is more probably due to:

1) Wanting protection from the government, as the USA (looking back at its founding) has a bad history with governments.
2) Seeing the crime rate present in the USA, wanting self protection.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on August 01, 2013, 09:41:18 pm

You haven't even responded to my exegesis on John 20.28 so it looks like your strategy wouldn't work.  Nonetheless, you are free to engage any of them.

Yes I did,  http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/john-20.2729-focusing-single-passage-6022444.msg1275167648.html#msg1275167648 (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/john-20.2729-focusing-single-passage-6022444.msg1275167648.html#msg1275167648)

How much "engagement" would you like?  ???

And absolutely none of it engaged my exegesis at all.  That's clear for anyone to see.

You know what AAQ, I think John nailed it when he said....that people “may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God”  (John 20:31)

"but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. (NASB)

"But these are written so that you may believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God,[a] and by believing you may have life in His name." (HOLMAN)

"But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name." (Douay-Rheims)

Here was John's perfect opportunity to reveal the Christ as "God Almighty" but he didn't....he said that Jesus was "the Son of God". Jesus identified himself as "God's son".
Being the son, doesn't make him God. He was divine....a god-like "mighty one" but he is not and never will be God Almighty.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 09:44:35 pm
Notice you haven't engaged the actual text. Everybody knows John 20.28 is the penultimate passage of John and consummates the whole book so it's rather important.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on August 01, 2013, 10:02:17 pm
Excuse my ignorance here Jem.

When Thomas states "my Lord and my God" Do you interpret this as 'My Lord' referencing Jesus 'and my God' to reference Jesus as a lesser god?

Given that the term "god" could apply even to mere humans in positions of authority, we cannot get carried away with a term that was not exclusively used of the Father, or the son. There were often other defining words used with reference to "the true God" "Jehovah God" "The Sovereign Lord Jehovah" "Jehovah of Armies" None of those expressions are used with reference to the son. There is NO "God the Son" written anywhere in scripture....there is no "God the Holy Spirit" either. Those are pure fantasy.

Quote
If anyone were to say to me 'my God', should I need to ask what God that is, the true one or the lesser one?
That expression is heard way too often these days.  ::) People who say that are making an exclamation, not claiming that someone is a deity. If someone from another country came and heard people use that expression as they do in the west, what would they think if it wasn't a common expression in their language?

Quote
Jesus states here “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” using the Father at the start so we know what this means.

Should Thomas have also said that to clarify exactly what he meant?

Again, these are the words of a man who was shocked at what he was seeing. Do you think he stopped to think about the words that popped out of his mouth? What do we say when something unexpected or shocking happens? What if it was an expletive that we didn't intend? Do we stop to analyze what we say before we say it under those circumstances? These words of Thomas are over analyzed and lept upon by trinitarians as if they cancel out all the scripture that proves Jesus isn't God.  :-\

A trinitarian spin is put on his words.

Quote
Again, I understand 'there are many gods' but we are to have one God. I'm not sure how many Christians go around saying they believe in many gods or even if that is ok by Christian standards.

Back in their day, when a different language was spoken, how can you know Snooch. They didn't speak English and Thomas would not have been blaspheming by calling a mortal man, "God" in any sense that would make Jesus the Almighty. No faithful Jew would do that. 
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 10:05:27 pm
Exactly. No Jew would blaspheme like that yet Thomas called Jesus "the God of me". He called Jesus that! Thus, Jesus is God.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Jem on August 01, 2013, 10:09:54 pm
Quote
Exactly. No Jew would blaspheme like that yet Thomas called Jesus "the God of me". He called Jesus that! Thus, Jesus is God.

Thomas was not exhibiting faith at the time.

Notice you haven't engaged the actual text. Everybody knows John 20.28 is the penultimate passage of John and consummates the whole book so it's rather important.

Penultimate? ??? Are you serious? There is no penultimate scripture describing a doctrine that only about 1700 years old? Jews did not believe in a triune God and still don't.

John said "But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name."

Why didn't John say it outright then? That "Jesus Christ is Almighty God"? He didn't say it because it isn't true.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 10:12:37 pm
Thomas wasn't exhibiting faith? Then why did Jesus commend him for believing?

It's not 1700 years old. It's almost 2000 as it goes back to Jesus and the apostles. Also, you are making demands for things you know not to be there. What Greek phrase are you looking for?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Snoochies on August 01, 2013, 10:13:36 pm
Excuse my ignorance here Jem.

When Thomas states "my Lord and my God" Do you interpret this as 'My Lord' referencing Jesus 'and my God' to reference Jesus as a lesser god?

Given that the term "god" could apply even to mere humans in positions of authority, we cannot get carried away with a term that was not exclusively used of the Father, or the son. There were often other defining words used with reference to "the true God" "Jehovah God" "The Sovereign Lord Jehovah" "Jehovah of Armies" None of those expressions are used with reference to the son. There is NO "God the Son" written anywhere in scripture....there is no "God the Holy Spirit" either. Those are pure fantasy.

Quote
If anyone were to say to me 'my God', should I need to ask what God that is, the true one or the lesser one?
That expression is heard way too often these days.  ::) People who say that are making an exclamation, not claiming that someone is a deity. If someone from another country came and heard people use that expression as they do in the west, what would they think if it wasn't a common expression in their language?

Quote
Jesus states here “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” using the Father at the start so we know what this means.

Should Thomas have also said that to clarify exactly what he meant?

Again, these are the words of a man who was shocked at what he was seeing. Do you think he stopped to think about the words that popped out of his mouth? What do we say when something unexpected or shocking happens? What if it was an expletive that we didn't intend? Do we stop to analyze what we say before we say it under those circumstances? These words of Thomas are over analyzed and lept upon by trinitarians as if they cancel out all the scripture that proves Jesus isn't God.  :-\

A trinitarian spin is put on his words.

Quote
Again, I understand 'there are many gods' but we are to have one God. I'm not sure how many Christians go around saying they believe in many gods or even if that is ok by Christian standards.

Back in their day, when a different language was spoken, how can you know Snooch. They didn't speak English and Thomas would not have been blaspheming by calling a mortal man, "God" in any sense that would make Jesus the Almighty. No faithful Jew would do that.

You're not seriously saying that Thomas was exclaiming "my God" like a teenage girl who sees Justin Beiber walk down the street are you.  :-\

You did say earlier he was referencing Jesus by calling him 'my God', i am just guessing you believe he was referencing a lesser God. I've not seen in scripture where any of the first Christians ever referenced other lesser gods, but were against them.

That's not me coming from any trinitarian thought, it's just what I read. Remember I never grew up in any Church to have any of that doctrine behind me.

But Justin Beiber, seriously ;)
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 11:05:28 pm

You're not seriously saying that Thomas was exclaiming "my God" like a teenage girl who sees Justin Beiber walk down the street are you.  :-\

You did say earlier he was referencing Jesus by calling him 'my God', i am just guessing you believe he was referencing a lesser God. I've not seen in scripture where any of the first Christians ever referenced other lesser gods, but were against them.

That's not me coming from any trinitarian thought, it's just what I read. Remember I never grew up in any Church to have any of that doctrine behind me.

But Justin Beiber, seriously ;)
I don't follow. How does any of this change the fact that Jesus is not God but God's son as clearly stated over and over and over again throughout the Scriptures?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 11:07:33 pm
Quote
In effect, all we desire is for you to sincerely evaluate the fruit your church produces along with the rest of Christendom and compare it with the fruitage Christ indicated his sedulous followers would necessarily produce.

Have you ever done so?

My church produces well, in my opinion, compared to the rest of Christendom and various Christian cults. Of course I'm biased, but that's my opinion.
What evidence led you to such a conclusion?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 11:12:09 pm
Son of God does not contradict Jesus being God. That's just to misunderstand what is meant by the title.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Curt J. O'Brian on August 01, 2013, 11:21:46 pm
Quote
In effect, all we desire is for you to sincerely evaluate the fruit your church produces along with the rest of Christendom and compare it with the fruitage Christ indicated his sedulous followers would necessarily produce.

Have you ever done so?

My church produces well, in my opinion, compared to the rest of Christendom and various Christian cults. Of course I'm biased, but that's my opinion.
What evidence led you to such a conclusion?

My experiences with my church and the statistics involving our number of members around the world.
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 11:39:01 pm
Excuse my ignorance here Jem.

When Thomas states "my Lord and my God" Do you interpret this as 'My Lord' referencing Jesus 'and my God' to reference Jesus as a lesser god?

Given that the term "god" could apply even to mere humans in positions of authority, we cannot get carried away with a term that was not exclusively used of the Father, or the son. There were often other defining words used with reference to "the true God" "Jehovah God" "The Sovereign Lord Jehovah" "Jehovah of Armies" None of those expressions are used with reference to the son. There is NO "God the Son" written anywhere in scripture....there is no "God the Holy Spirit" either. Those are pure fantasy.

Quote
If anyone were to say to me 'my God', should I need to ask what God that is, the true one or the lesser one?
That expression is heard way too often these days.  ::) People who say that are making an exclamation, not claiming that someone is a deity. If someone from another country came and heard people use that expression as they do in the west, what would they think if it wasn't a common expression in their language?

Quote
Jesus states here “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” using the Father at the start so we know what this means.

Should Thomas have also said that to clarify exactly what he meant?

Again, these are the words of a man who was shocked at what he was seeing. Do you think he stopped to think about the words that popped out of his mouth? What do we say when something unexpected or shocking happens? What if it was an expletive that we didn't intend? Do we stop to analyze what we say before we say it under those circumstances? These words of Thomas are over analyzed and lept upon by trinitarians as if they cancel out all the scripture that proves Jesus isn't God.  :-\

A trinitarian spin is put on his words.

Quote
Again, I understand 'there are many gods' but we are to have one God. I'm not sure how many Christians go around saying they believe in many gods or even if that is ok by Christian standards.

Back in their day, when a different language was spoken, how can you know Snooch. They didn't speak English and Thomas would not have been blaspheming by calling a mortal man, "God" in any sense that would make Jesus the Almighty. No faithful Jew would do that.

You're not seriously saying that Thomas was exclaiming "my God" like a teenage girl who sees Justin Beiber walk down the street are you.  :-\

You did say earlier he was referencing Jesus by calling him 'my God', i am just guessing you believe he was referencing a lesser God. I've not seen in scripture where any of the first Christians ever referenced other lesser gods, but were against them.

That's not me coming from any trinitarian thought, it's just what I read. Remember I never grew up in any Church to have any of that doctrine behind me.

But Justin Beiber, seriously ;)
After dismissing the claims of Christ's resurrection, Thomas was now face to face with his dead teacher brought back to life who suddenly appeared out of nowhere while they were in a locked room.


Can you even begin to imagine how utterly and completely stupefied he was when he realized who was standing before him?


I'm surprised he said anything intelligible at all!
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 11:42:27 pm
Quote
In effect, all we desire is for you to sincerely evaluate the fruit your church produces along with the rest of Christendom and compare it with the fruitage Christ indicated his sedulous followers would necessarily produce.

Have you ever done so?

My church produces well, in my opinion, compared to the rest of Christendom and various Christian cults. Of course I'm biased, but that's my opinion.
What evidence led you to such a conclusion?

My experiences with my church and the statistics involving our number of members around the world.
Since it permits its members to commit murder - provided, of course, that they do so under the mandate of their country's political leader - I must ask, are other unrepentant sinners allowed to continue being members of the church or are they excommunicated? If so, how many have been excommunicated since you became a member?

What is your church's official position on homosexuality and gay members?

How big is it's clerical class?
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 01, 2013, 11:44:09 pm
Son of God does not contradict Jesus being God. That's just to misunderstand what is meant by the title.
Right, the same way a square is a circle but not a circle ...


Put some thought into your replies ...
Title: Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on August 01, 2013, 11:45:31 pm
After dismissing the claims of Christ's resurrection, Thomas was now face to face with his dead teacher brought back to life who suddenly appeared out of nowhere while they were in a locked room.


Can you even begin to imagine how utterly and completely stupefied he was when he realized who was standing before him?


I'm surprised he said anything intelligible at all!

This doesn't interact with the passage at all.  Thomas said those things to Jesus.  Second, Thomas would not have blasphemed (as Jem agrees) and he was not rebuked for blaspheming by Jesus or John.  Moreover, Jesus commended Thomas for his belief but his belief was his statement "the Lord of me and the God of me."  Thus, Jesus was saying that statement was not blasphemy and that it was a statement of faith and it was made to Jesus.