Reasonable Faith Forums

Jesus => Incarnation => Topic started by: Biep on July 29, 2013, 08:45:12 am

Title: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Biep on July 29, 2013, 08:45:12 am
If I understand Jem correctly, she claims that the Bible teaches that all Jesus had to pay was one single perfect physical human life, in exchange for the one Adam forfeited.
So far, as Biblical support, all she has given (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022196.msg1275163906#msg1275163906) is the text "It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Cor 15:45; Gen 2:7), to which I replied in this post (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022196.msg1275164557#msg1275164557).

Now if a Roman Catholic makes a claim that seems to go against the Biblical message, there often is an easy explanation: very broadly stated, the Bible is not their final authority; their magisterium is.  But the magisterium of the Jehovah's Witnesses, for all I know, claims that the Bible is to have the last word - which raises the question: where in the Bible is this doctrine taught?

Christians generally accept that Christ paid on the cross for our sins - and that includes Adam's sin, even though Adam himself already paid for his sin with his life.  The difference appears when the claim is made that one perfect human life is all payment that was needed to buy all of us free.

So, where in the Bible is that doctrine taught?
Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Stephen on July 29, 2013, 09:04:44 am
Also, is there any biblical support from the OT telling us that this is what the Jews expected- a merely "perfect" physical human life?
Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 29, 2013, 09:59:34 pm
Christ explicated, "For even the Son of man came [] to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” - Mark 10:45


This concept of a ransom that needed to be paid is a common theme throughout the Scriptures. The Hebrew noun ko′pher comes from the verb ka·phar′, meaning, basically, “cover,” as in Noah’s covering the ark with tar. (Ge 6:14) Ka·phar′, however, is used almost entirely to describe the satisfying of justice through the covering of or atoning for sins. The noun ko′pher refers to the thing given to accomplish this, the ransom price. (Ps 65:3; 78:38; 79:8, 9) A covering corresponds to the thing it covers, either in its form (as in a material lid, such as the “cover [kap·po′reth]” of the ark of the covenant; Ex 25:17-22), or in its value (as in a payment to cover the damages caused by an injury). (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003640)As a means for balancing justice and setting matters straight with his people Israel, Jehovah, in the Law covenant, designated various sacrifices and offerings to atone for, or cover, sins. (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003640)


With this proem in place we're ready to perlustrate how Christ was a ransom, for whom and why a ransom was needed in the first place. We read at Romans 5:12-19, "Just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.13 For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law.14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam, who bears a resemblance to him that was to come.


15 But it is not with the gift as it was with the trespass. For if by one man’s trespass many died, the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift with the undeserved kindness by the one man Jesus Christ abounded much more to many.16 Also, it is not with the free gift as it was with the way things worked through the one [man] that sinned. For the judgment resulted from one trespass in condemnation, but the gift resulted from many trespasses in a declaration of righteousness.17 For if by the trespass of the one [man] death ruled as king through that one, much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one [person], Jesus Christ.


18 So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, likewise also through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is a declaring of them righteous for life.19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one [person] many will be constituted righteous."


As we all know, Adam sold himself to do evil for the selfish pleasure of keeping continued company with his wife, now a sinful transgressor, so he shared the same condemned standing with her before God. He thereby sold himself and his descendants into slavery to sin and to death, the price that God’s justice required. (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003640)


Having possessed human perfection, Adam lost this valuable possession for himself and all his offspring. (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003640)
The Law, which had “a shadow of the good things to come,” provided for animal sacrifices as a covering for sin. This, however, was only a symbolic or token covering, since such animals were inferior to man; hence, it was “not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats [actually] to take sins away,” as the apostle points out. (Heb 10:1-4) Those pictorial animal sacrifices had to be without blemish, perfect specimens. (Le 22:21) The real ransom sacrifice, a human actually capable of removing sins, must therefore also be perfect, free from blemish. He would have to correspond to the perfect Adam and possess human perfection, if he were to pay the price of redemption that would release Adam’s offspring from the debt, disability, and enslavement into which their first father Adam had sold them. (Compare Ro 7:14; Ps 51:5.) Only thereby could he satisfy God’s perfect justice that requires like for like, a ‘soul for a soul.’—Ex 21:23-25; De 19:21. (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003640)

The strictness of God’s justice made it impossible for mankind itself to provide its own redeemer. (Ps 49:6-9) However, this results in the magnifying of God’s own love and mercy in that he met his own requirements at tremendous cost to himself, giving the life of his own Son to provide the redemption price. (Ro 5:6-8) This required his Son’s becoming human to correspond to the perfect Adam. God accomplished this by transferring his Son’s life from heaven to the womb of the Jewish virgin Mary. (Lu 1:26-37; Joh 1:14) Since Jesus did not owe his life to any human father descended from the sinner Adam, and since God’s holy spirit ‘overshadowed’ Mary, evidently from the time she conceived until the time of Jesus’ birth, Jesus was born free from any inheritance of sin or imperfection, being, as it were, “an unblemished and spotless lamb,” whose blood could prove to be an acceptable sacrifice. (Lu 1:35; Joh 1:29; 1Pe 1:18, 19) He maintained that sinless state throughout his life and thus did not disqualify himself. (Heb 4:15; 7:26; 1Pe 2:22) As a ‘sharer of blood and flesh,’ he was a near kinsman of mankind and he had the thing of value, his own perfect life maintained pure through tests of integrity, with which to repurchase mankind, emancipate them.—Heb 2:14, 15. (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003640)

The Christian Greek Scriptures make clear that the release from sin and death is indeed by the paying of a price. Christians are said to be “bought with a price” (1Co 6:20; 7:23), having an “owner that bought them” (2Pe 2:1), and Jesus is presented as the Lamb who ‘was slaughtered and with his blood bought persons for God out of every tribe, tongue, and nation.’ (Re 5:9) In these texts the verb a·go·ra′zo is used, meaning simply “buy at the market [a·go·ra′].” The related e·xa·go·ra′zo (release by purchase) is used by Paul in showing that Christ released “by purchase those under law” through his death on the stake. (Ga 4:5; 3:13) But the thought of redemption or ransoming is more frequently and more fully expressed by the Greek ly′tron and related terms. (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003640)

Ly′tron (from the verb ly′o, meaning “loose”) was especially used by Greek writers to refer to a price paid to ransom prisoners of war or to release those under bond or in slavery. (Compare Heb 11:35.) In its two Scriptural occurrences it describes Christ’s giving “his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28; Mr 10:45) The related word an·ti′ly·tron appears at 1 Timothy 2:6. Parkhurst’s Greek and English Lexicon to the New Testament says it means: “a ransom, price of redemption, or rather a correspondent ransom.” He quotes Hyperius as saying: “It properly signifies a price by which captives are redeemed from the enemy; and that kind of exchange in which the life of one is redeemed by the life of another.” He concludes by saying: “So Aristotle uses the verb [an·ti·ly·tro′o] for redeeming life by life.” (London, 1845, p. 47) Thus Christ “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (1Ti 2:5, 6) Other related words are ly·tro′o·mai, “loose by ransom” (Tit 2:14; 1Pe 1:18, 19), and a·po·ly′tro·sis, “a releasing by ransom.” (Eph 1:7, 14; Col 1:14) The similarity of the usage of these words with that of the Hebrew terms considered is evident. They describe, not an ordinary purchase or releasing, but a redeeming or ransoming, a deliverance effected by payment of a corresponding price. (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003640)

Though available to all, Christ’s ransom sacrifice is not accepted by all, and “the wrath of God remains” upon those not accepting it, as it also comes upon those who first accept and then turn away from that provision. (Joh 3:36; Heb 10:26-29; contrast Ro 5:9, 10.) They gain no deliverance from the enslavement to Kings Sin and Death. (Ro 5:21) Under the Law the deliberate murderer could not be ransomed. Adam, by his willful course, brought death on all mankind, hence was a murderer. (Ro 5:12) Thus, the sacrificed life of Jesus is not acceptable to God as a ransom for the sinner Adam. (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003640)

But God is pleased to approve the application of the ransom to redeem those of Adam’s offspring who avail themselves of such a release. As Paul states, “as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one person many will be constituted righteous.” (Ro 5:18, 19) At the time of Adam’s sin and his being sentenced to death, his offspring or race were all unborn in his loins and so all died with him. (Compare Heb 7:4-10.) Jesus as a perfect man, “the last Adam” (1Co 15:45), had a race or offspring unborn in his loins, and when he died innocently as a perfect human sacrifice this potential human race died with him. He had willingly abstained from producing a family of his own by natural procreation. Instead, Jesus uses the authority granted by Jehovah on the basis of his ransom to give life to all those who accept this provision.—1Co 15:45; compare Ro 5:15-17. (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003640)

Thus, Jesus was indeed “a corresponding ransom,” not for the redemption of the one sinner, Adam, but for the redemption of all mankind descended from Adam. He repurchased them so that they could become his family, doing this by presenting the full value of his ransom sacrifice to the God of absolute justice in heaven. (Heb 9:24) The entire arrangement manifests Jehovah’s wisdom and his righteousness in perfectly balancing the scales of justice while showing undeserved kindness and forgiving sins.—Ro 3:21-26. (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003640)
Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Asking_A_Question on July 30, 2013, 01:56:53 pm
Dude, learn to use your own words and get to the point: TL; DR.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Biep on July 30, 2013, 04:00:39 pm
Christ explicated, "For even the Son of man came [] to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” - Mark 10:45
Yes - showing that Jesus' soul was worth the price for the sins of many people.
We know that each of us, without Jesus, has his life forfeited, so the value of the life of Jesus covers the values of the lives of many others.
Yet, Jem seemed to claim that Jesus' life was equivalent to just the one life Adam forfeited.
Quote from: Romans 5:12
Just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.
There is no because in the Greek, which has "εφ ω παντες ημαρτον", which literally translates as "at which all sinned", in more idiomatic English: "through whom all had sinned" (in the aorist, so this is not repeated or continual sinning, in which case the imperfect would have been used). 
(If the "ω" is taken as abstract, referring to the preceding fact, then the construction would mean "with the result that", as Fitzmyer has shown (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=4293231) by a survey of the ancient Greek literature.)
Now what can that mean?  Well, the next verse starts with "γαρ" (as always taking the second place in the sentence), which means that an explanation is forthcoming.  So let's read on.
Quote from: Romans 5:13-14
For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam, who bears a resemblance to him that was to come.
Now this is a telling bit: all those who died after Adam but before the Law did not die to pay for their own sins.  Yet they died, as Adams sin was on them - which shows that the life of Adam had not been enough payment, nor were the lives of all those others together.  Which is obvious in a way (finite lives can never pay for an infinite debt), but it is good to see Paul pointing it out.
So, whether it is "through whom" or "with the result that", it is necessarily Adam's sin that is still being paid for.
Quote from: Romans 5:15
But it is not with the gift as it was with the trespass.  For if by one man’s trespass many died, the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift with the undeserved kindness by the one man Jesus Christ abounded much more to many.
Emphasis mine.
Again, the Bible stresses the incomparably greater worth of Jesus' life.
Quote from: Romans 5:16
Also, it is not with the free gift as it was with the way things worked through the one [man] that sinned. For the judgment resulted from one trespass in condemnation, but the gift resulted from many trespasses in a declaration of righteousness.
Again, emphasis mine, and again, the Word stresses the superlative value of Jesus' ransom.
Quote from: Romans 5:17
For if by the trespass of the one [man] death ruled as king through that one, much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one [person], Jesus Christ.
Again my emphasis, and again Jesus' superlative worth. :)
Quote from: Romans 5:18-19
So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, likewise also through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is a declaring of them righteous for life.  For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one [person] many will be constituted righteous.
The point of agreement is rather that both events were single acts by single persons (although Jesus' sacrifice implied His continual non-sinning, whereas Adam only needed one moment of sinning).

Quote from: Maxximiliann
As we all know, Adam sold himself to do evil for the selfish pleasure of keeping continued company with his wife, now a sinful transgressor,
Wait a moment - where do you read that Eve sinned before Adam?  Eve was seduced, but Adam is the first sinner.
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so he shared the same condemned standing with her before God.
Only Adam is thrown out of paradise (Genesis 2:23).  Eve, being married, shared in this fate, but only through Adam.
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He thereby sold himself and his descendants into slavery to sin and to death, the price that God’s justice required.
Ah, here Jem (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022196.msg1275163092#msg1275163092) and you disagree, and you seem to agree with me that the price paid was Adam's spiritual death, the one He incurred on the day he ate from the fruit (Genesis 2:17).  The price for sin is spiritual death - which is why Jesus had to die a spiritual death, a task accomplished well before He died physically (John 19:28-30).  My issue is with Jem's claim that Jesus never died a spiritual death (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6021721.msg1275148352#msg1275148352).

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hence, it was “not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats [actually] to take sins away,” as the apostle points out. (Heb 10:1-4)
Amen - which is why God Himself will give His blood on the altar (Leviticus 17:11)
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He would have to correspond to the perfect Adam and possess human perfection, if he were to pay the price of redemption that would release Adam’s offspring from the debt, disability, and enslavement into which their first father Adam had sold them. (Compare Ro 7:14; Ps 51:5.)
Now here suddenly the reasoning changes.  Up till now we have seen that Jesus' sacrifice is incomparably more valuable than Adam's life.
So this statement is wrong - Jesus' worth had to cover not Adam's worth, but the debt incurred by his sin, plus the debt incurred by the sins of all other people.
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Only thereby could he satisfy God’s perfect justice that requires like for like, a ‘soul for a soul.’—Ex 21:23-25; De 19:21.
Yes, Jem came with that one too.  But read the context: this is about bodily harm, and Adam's sin wasn't bodily harm, but theft and sacrilege.
And, The "an eye for an eye" rule was a restriction of vengeance, and before His death Jesus had already reduced this limit to zero (Matthew 5:38-39), so at the time of His crucifiction this revenge permission no longer existed.

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However, this results in the magnifying of God’s own love and mercy in that he met his own requirements at tremendous cost to himself, giving the life of his own Son to provide the redemption price. (Ro 5:6-8)
As an aside, for a Trinitarian this sounds obvious, but for unitarians this must mean that both Jesus and the Father suffered.  Is that indeed your doctrine?  That makes it even less understandable why Jesus had to suffer.  God was fully able to do this Himself, after all.  But that is rather for another thread.

Were were we..
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This required his Son’s becoming human to correspond to the perfect Adam.
Oh, yes -  the incongruous statement that I started this thread about.  After all the Bible verses showing that Jesus' sacrifice was much more, of much higher worth and value, than Adam's life.

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The Christian Greek Scriptures make clear that the release from sin and death is indeed by the paying of a price.
Agreed.

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Thus Christ “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (1Ti 2:5, 6)
And here we have the other idea again - that Jesus' worth was enough to cover not the price of one life, nor even the penalty for the sins of one, but the penalty for the sins of all.  I am getting confused as to which of the two notions you believe.  (By the way, Jem also wavered, but rather between "the price of the life of Adam" and "the price of the sin of Adam" (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022196.msg1275163906#msg1275163906).  She didn't extend it to the sins of all.

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Under the Law the deliberate murderer could not be ransomed. Adam, by his willful course, brought death on all mankind, hence was a murderer. (Ro 5:12) Thus, the sacrificed life of Jesus is not acceptable to God as a ransom for the sinner Adam.
So, murderers are lost for ever?  Including David and Paul?
And the whole reasoning is awry.  If there is no ransom possible for Adam's sin, then Jesus' couldn't die as a ransom for Adam's sin.

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the scales of justice
Oh, yes - Jem brought up that pagan Roman notion as well.  But for theft (part of Adam's sin), one has to repay more than the amount stolen.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Biep on July 30, 2013, 04:04:19 pm
Actually, I was rather looking for Scriptural support than for a philosophical treatise.

Some verses roughly stating that Jesus had to pay the price of the life of Adam.

Nevertheless thanks for replying.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on July 30, 2013, 08:48:05 pm

you seem to agree with me that the price paid was Adam's spiritual death, the one He incurred on the day he ate from the fruit (Genesis 2:17).
How so?

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plus the debt incurred by the sins of all other people.
We are only discussing Adamic sin, the sin we've all inherited by simply being descendents of Adam and Eve. Deliberate sins we commit ourselves are another matter altogether.

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But read the context
How does it change the fact that the passages in question establishes God's justice as a perfect equivalency?


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I am getting confused as to which of the two notions you believe.
Again, we are only considering Adamic sin.


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So, murderers are lost for ever?  Including David and Paul?

This is a non sequitur.


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If there is no ransom possible for Adam's sin, then Jesus' couldn't die as a ransom for Adam's sin.
Did Adam sin because of his sinful condition. Had Adam inherited sin?
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Biep on August 02, 2013, 02:48:01 pm
you seem to agree with me that the price paid was Adam's spiritual death, the one He incurred on the day he ate from the fruit (Genesis 2:17).
How so?
Because "slavery to sin" is hardly a property of physical death, but clearly a sign of spiritual death.

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Deliberate sins we commit ourselves are another matter altogether.
Of course - but that is part of what Jesus' ransom must cover.  When a sinner comes to Christ, and his personal sins would not be covered by the ransom, he would be as lost as before. 

Quote
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But read the context
How does it change the fact that the passages in question establishes God's justice as a perfect equivalency?
Because
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Again, we are only considering Adamic sin.
All right, it seems I wasn't clear in the OP.  I created this thread because I want to know the extent of what Christ's ransom covered.  Suppose it merely covered Adam's sin - that would be great news for Adam, but not for other sinners.

So a discussion about what Jesus' ransom meant to Adam alone is not the kind of discussion I am interested in.  In fact, I am not looking for discussion - or not directly.  I am looking for Scriptural support for Jem's position (and may of course want to discuss that later).  Jem is in general a lucid and articulate defender of her views, but she has a tendency to quit discussions just when they are going somewhere and getting interesting.  I really hope she will come and explain her position by giving (in her eyes, of course) clear Scriptural support for it.  (Jem, are you reading this?).

So thanks for citing Mark 10:14 and the passage in Romans 5 that show that Jesus' ransom is much greater than the worth of Adam's life, but I knew that already.  I am looking for the opposite position, because I want to evaluate it and see whether there may be something in it.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Biep on August 02, 2013, 02:53:18 pm
I don't want to pursue this further in this thread, but you deserve an answer to your remarks, so here goes..

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So, murderers are lost for ever?  Including David and Paul?
This is a non sequitur.
Why?  If the law doesn't allow for a ransom for murderers, Christ cannot be a ransom for murderers.

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If there is no ransom possible for Adam's sin, then Jesus' couldn't die as a ransom for Adam's sin.
Did Adam sin because of his sinful condition. Had Adam inherited sin?
The law you cite is for post-fall people, so it applies at least to such people.  If it only applies to post-fall people, it doesn't apply to Adam - yet you do apply it to Adam, so you seem to believe it also applies to pre-fall people.

So: does that law apply to Adam?  If so, if no ransom for Adam's sin is possible, Christ could not die as a ransom for Adam's sin.  If not, if it only applies to post-fall murderers such as David and Paul, then for them no ransom is possible.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on August 02, 2013, 08:28:21 pm
you seem to agree with me that the price paid was Adam's spiritual death, the one He incurred on the day he ate from the fruit (Genesis 2:17).
How so?
Because "slavery to sin" is hardly a property of physical death, but clearly a sign of physical death.
First, how is this germane and, two, what in the world are you talking about? How is your affirmation not a fallacious argumentum distinctionis sine differentia?


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Deliberate sins we commit ourselves are another matter altogether.
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Of course - but that is part of what Jesus' ransom must cover.
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When a sinner comes to Christ, and his personal sins would not be covered by the ransom, he would be as lost as before.

But such is a conditional benefit for it is extended only to those who exercise faith in Christ's ransom sacrifice, not automatic and, therefore, not universal.

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But read the context
How does it change the fact that the passages in question establishes God's justice as a perfect equivalency?
Quote

Because

 
  • that law (about bodily injury done) doesn't apply to Adam's case;
Why not?
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by the time Jesus died He had already limited this revenge to zero, and
Argumentum assertio. Please expatiate.


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in cases where such supposed equivalency would show up it doesn't, e.g. by repayment after theft (whichn does apply to Adam's sin).
Argumentum assertio. Please expatiate.

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Suppose it merely covered Adam's sin
Adam's sin was deliberate therefore he could not benefit from the payment of the ransom. It would be like a kidnapper who receives the ransom he demands and, as a result, is exonerated of the kidnapping he committed to get the ransom. God's justice doesn't work that way.
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So thanks for citing Mark 10:14 and the passage in Romans 5 that show that Jesus' ransom is much greater than the worth of Adam's life
Strawman. Try again.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Biep on August 03, 2013, 04:47:55 am
Waiting for Jem.  It seems she left the discussion again, but who knows..
Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Jem on August 09, 2013, 05:02:03 pm
Actually, I was rather looking for Scriptural support than for a philosophical treatise.

Everything that you asked for is in Maxx's post #2

It's all there. No one is expecting you to agree, but a full explanation was furnished.

This is a detailed explanation of our beliefs on the ransom.

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Some verses roughly stating that Jesus had to pay the price of the life of Adam.

When you understand the "ransom" as it applied to God's stated laws, you will see that equivalency is part of God's arrangement. The scales of justice is not a pagan idea...it is Biblical. The image may not be, but the concept certainly is.

"Soul for soul" was part of God's law, just as 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth' demonstrated equivalency. Even if a struggle between men caused an accidental miscarriage or premature death of a foetus, "life for life" was the penalty.
The "soul" (life) that Adam lost, could only be atoned for by an equivalent "soul" (life).

There was now no equivalent soul since sin had entered into the world through the only human lives that existed. (Rom 5:12)
A human soul had to come from outside the now sinful human race to offer to God an equivalent ransom, not for Adam, but for all of his children who inherited sin through no fault on their part.

Adam paid the penalty for his own sin. His wife, having the same penalty imposed for the same act of disobedience, also suffered the same fate....ageing, sickness and eventually physical death. There was no excuse for their disobedience. They made the choice in full knowledge of the stated outcome. Perfect beings do not make mistakes. Eve was deceived, but still disobedient. Adam was not deceived, so his decision to side with his wife was also made in full knowledge of the consequences. They expected no forgiveness, and there is not one expression of remorse from either of them....not one sacrifice offered by them. Abel is the first one to have done so.

In the headship arrangement, Eve was to be in submission to her husband's direction. Did she seek it before making her decision? The scriptures tell us that she was thoroughly deceived, but Adam wasn't. It is his sin that was responsible for the death of the human race that descended from both of them.

Have you ever wondered what would have happened if Adam had not joined his wife in rebellion? We may well have seen a totally different outcome. What if they had both told the devil to "get lost" as Jesus did?

There were three possible outcomes and God allowed his free willed creatures to make their own choices. He had the rest of forever to accomplish his will, so everything played our exactly as each choice would have determined. This is Jehovah living up to the meaning of his name. He will "become" whatever he needs to be in order for his will to be accomplished.

Our position on this point is logical and scriptural and in accord with Jehovah's clearly stated laws.

Read the explanation in post #2 and you will see it clearly.  :)

What else needs to be said?




Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Biep on August 12, 2013, 06:05:03 am
Everything that you asked for is in Maxx's post #2
It's all there. No one is expecting you to agree, but a full explanation was furnished.
Except that it isn't - or at least I don't see it.

I have studied that post once again, but apart from a lot of expatiation, all I can find there is:So I am a bit amazed that you point to this post as if supporting your theory.  But maybe I have completely misunderstood your doctrine.

Elsewhere (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022196.msg1275168757#msg1275168757) you said something about Jesus' body being the price.  Now that is a very different statement.  Imprisonment is payment with my body (but not with my life), whereas capital punishment is payment with my life (but not with my body, which my family may come and collect after the execution).
So maybe I should simply ask you to state your position again, as I have the feeling I am misunderstanding it at a crucial point.
Title: Equity
Post by: Biep on August 12, 2013, 06:27:03 am
I think I see where the "equivalence principle" comes from.  In the Law, one must distinguish loss and guilt.  If I cause a loss, that loss must be compensated - there obviously an equity principle holds.

But that compensation does nothing for my guilt.  If I am guilty, completely separately from the compensation for the loss, a penalty is to be paid.  This penalty is to cover my guilt, and has nothing to do with scales.  If I publicly call you horrible names, the law does not tell you to call me the same names so that we are on equal footing again.  The penalty for guilt exceeds equity (Genesis 12:3; Matthew 5:22), because God's infinite honour is involved.

So, yes, an equal price must be paid for the loss, but that does nothing to cover the guilt - that of Adam and that of all of us who came after.  And that equal price is not just one life: through Adam's sin God lost His whole creation - all of it lies in the evil now.  That is one reason why the whole creation does not suffice as a ransom for one soul - Matthew 16:26.

(As an aside, in Dutch law, returning or compensating for stolen goods is not even in the criminal law.  One must ask the judge specifically to add that to the verdict, or else the goods stay with the thief.  Very principled, but maybe not very practical.)
Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Biep on October 14, 2013, 04:41:18 am
A real pity this thread stopped when I left for Africa.  I had hoped to find some answers here when I returned.
I think, besides the Biblical foundation (verses clearly stating or implying this doctrine), there are three main questions I have concerning the price paid by Jesus.Now these lists of possible answers are clearly not exhaustive, so don't hesitate to answer with options that I haven't listed.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on October 14, 2013, 10:15:06 am
A real pity this thread stopped when I left for Africa.  I had hoped to find some answers here when I returned.
I think, besides the Biblical foundation (verses clearly stating or implying this doctrine), there are three main questions I have concerning the price payed by Jesus.
  • What was being payed?
    • A physical death
    • A spiritual death
    • A body
  • To whom was this price payed?
    • To the Father
    • To satan
  • What did this payment cover?  What was it the price for?
    • Adam's physical life
    • Adam's spiritual life
    • Adam's sin
    • The sins of all believers
    • The sins of all people
Now these lists of possible answers are clearly not exhaustive, so don't hesitate to answer with options that I haven't listed.

1. Christ's blood -
“[Christ] entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place [“heaven itself”] and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us.”—Hebrews 9:12; 1 John 2:2. (Brackets mine)

2. To Jehovah God, the Father -
"Christ entered [] into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us." -Hebrews 9:24 (Brackets mine)

3. "And [Christ] is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s." -1 John 2:2 (Bracket mine)

Jesus gave his life as a propitiatory sacrifice and so appeased, or satisfied, Jehovah God's requirement of perfect justice. On the basis of that sacrifice, the Father could now extend mercy, and he could forgive the sins of those who exercise faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice. (http://bit.ly/19MGDBD)—John 3:16; Romans 6:23.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Biep on October 14, 2013, 03:19:54 pm
  • What was being paid?
  • To whom was this price paid?
  • What did this payment cover?  What was it the price for?
1. Christ's blood -
“[Christ] entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place [“heaven itself”] and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us.”—Hebrews 9:12; 1 John 2:2. (Brackets mine)
All right - I may agree here, depending on how you interpret this.  Do you mean literal physical blood, as in leaving a desiccated body, or 'blood' as in 'soul', 'life' (Leviticus 17:11)?
Jem seems (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022196.msg1275177089#msg1275177089) to mean the latter. (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022408.msg1275171328#msg1275171328)
So we agree the body was not the ransom, is that correct?  For elsewhere Jem seems to imply so (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022196.msg1275168605#msg1275168605) when she writes:
Quote
Jesus had no sin in his physical body.  What he sacrificed was not taken back.
Or here (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6021864.msg1275148785#msg1275148785):
Quote
To be raised in the same body as he died would be to take back his ransom sacrifice.  His body was offered up, he could not take it back.

Quote
2. To Jehovah God, the Father -
"Christ entered [] into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us." -Hebrews 9:24 (Brackets mine)
All right again - here we seem in clear agreement, even though I don't think that verse proves it, as it speaks rather of Jesus' current activities than of His payment.  Anyway, your citing this verse seems to indicate that you don't take 'blood' literally, as here the whole of Jesus is meant, and I seem to remember you believed that (flesh and) blood could not enter heaven.
But again, Jem seems to disagree (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6021864.msg1275151171#msg1275151171), writing:
Quote
The fact that the two realms collided was because of the disobedience of a spirit being who dragged the human race into his own rebellion.  He held us to ransom and our Father paid the price for our release. Does it have to be more complicated than that?

Quote
3. "And [Christ] is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s." -1 John 2:2 (Bracket mine)
Jesus gave his life as a propitiatory sacrifice and so appeased, or satisfied, Jehovah God's requirement of perfect justice. On the basis of that sacrifice, the Father could now extend mercy, and he could forgive the sins of those who exercise faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice. (http://bit.ly/19MGDBD)—John 3:16; Romans 6:23.
And again I agree.
But again, Jem seems to disagree (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6021610.msg1275139757#msg1275139757).  She writes:
Quote
Christ was the exact equivalent of Adam. He had to be to offer his perfect life in exchange for the perfect life that Adam threw away. He is called "the last Adam" for that reason. (1Cor 15:22, 45)
So Jesus' ransom would merely cover Adam's finite life - not even his infinite sin, let alone the sins of the rest of us.
Such a minimal payment would only cover the loss incurred (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022408.msg1275171934#msg1275171934) (and in fact only a negligible part of that), and not even begin to pay for the guilt of Adam, let alone my guilt.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on October 14, 2013, 05:12:37 pm
  • What was being payed?
  • To whom was this price payed?
  • What did this payment cover?  What was it the price for?
1. Christ's blood -
“[Christ] entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place [“heaven itself”] and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us.”—Hebrews 9:12; 1 John 2:2. (Brackets mine)
All right - I may agree here, depending on how you interpret this.  Do you mean literal physical blood, as in leaving a desiccated body, or 'blood' as in 'soul', 'life' (Leviticus 17:11)?
Jehovah God has never been interested in the substance of blood but, rather, in the life it represents as we see at Leviticus 17:11. This is why it is of such extraordinary significance to him.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on October 14, 2013, 05:16:14 pm
2. To Jehovah God, the Father -
"Christ entered [] into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us." -Hebrews 9:24 (Brackets mine)
Quote
All right again - here we seem in clear agreement, even though I don't think that verse proves it, as it speaks rather of Jesus' current activities than of His payment. 
In conjunction with Hebrews 9:12 it's conspicuous that Christ went before the presence of Jehovah God to present the value of his perfect life as ransom for our sins.

Anyway, your citing this verse seems to indicate that you don't take 'blood' literally, as here the whole of Jesus is meant, and I seem to remember you believed that (flesh and) blood could not enter heaven.
It is what we're taught at 1 Corinthians 15:50.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on October 14, 2013, 05:16:37 pm
3. "And [Christ] is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s." -1 John 2:2 (Bracket mine)
Jesus gave his life as a propitiatory sacrifice and so appeased, or satisfied, Jehovah God's requirement of perfect justice. On the basis of that sacrifice, the Father could now extend mercy, and he could forgive the sins of those who exercise faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice. (http://bit.ly/19MGDBD)—John 3:16; Romans 6:23.
And again I agree.

But again, Jem seems to disagree (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/the-cup-of-wrath-6021610.msg1275139757.html#msg1275139757).  She writes:
Quote
Christ was the exact equivalent of Adam. He had to be to offer his perfect life in exchange for the perfect life that Adam threw away. He is called "the last Adam" for that reason. (1Cor 15:22, 45)
Quote
So Jesus' ransom would merely cover Adam's finite life - not even his infinite sin, let alone the sins of the rest of us.
Such a minimal payment would only cover the loss incurred (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/incarnation/merely-one-perfect-phsical-human-life-6022408.msg1275171934.html#msg1275171934) (and in fact only a negligeable part of that), and not even begin to pay for the guilt of Adam, let alone my guilt.

I won't pretend to speak for Jem, however, 1 Corinthians 15:22,45 does call Jesus "the last Adam."

Now, since one man’s sin (that of Adam) had been responsible for causing the entire human family to be sinners, the shed blood of another perfect human (in effect, a second Adam), being of corresponding value, could balance the scales of justice. Because Adam was a willful sinner, he could not benefit. However, because the penalty imposed on all mankind would be paid by someone else, Adam’s offspring could be delivered. (http://bit.ly/15CAdSc)
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Biep on November 01, 2013, 03:46:30 am
I won't pretend to speak for Jem,
Of course.  I had started this thread to discuss her views, which I find plainly confusing.  It is nice of you to try, but I really hope she will come and defend her views.
(But then again, you too seem at times to waver and think Jesus' body was the payment (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022196.msg1275168757#msg1275168757).)

And by the way, I only recently discovered that in reply #7 I once wrote 'physical' instead of 'spiritual', making the sentence nonsense.  You rightly caught that in #9, but at the time I was blind for the error in my quote.  I have since corrected my text.  Sorry.

Recently she wrote (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6023741.msg1275204028#msg1275204028):
Quote
The dead have paid sin's wages and are covered by the sacrifice of Christ (who died for all) so any "unrighteous" dead ones will be resurrected after judgment day to be given a second chance. If these refuse to bring their lives into harmony with God's requirements,  they will experience "the second death" from which there is no resurrection.
This seems to indicate that the value of Jesus' sacrifice was at least equal and opposite to the (negative infinite) value of all sins of all people - as opposed to merely ony finite physical human life (which Adam had already paid - Genesis 5:5).

Quote
however, 1 Corinthians 15:22,45 does call Jesus "the last Adam."
Indeed it does.  Verse 22 explains in what sense they are comparable - the antitype being of the opposite sign of the type - and the context of 45 shows the infinite difference in value.  The first Adam was merely earthly dust, but the second was heavenly.  The first merely had received life; the second had the power to give life (cf. John 5:26).  As with Romans 5:15-17, the passage stresses that the difference is both in the sign (Romans 5:16) and in the magnitude (Romans 5:15).

Quote
Now, since one man’s sin (that of Adam) had been responsible for causing the entire human family to be sinners, the shed blood of another perfect human (in effect, a second Adam), being of corresponding value, could balance the scales of justice. Because Adam was a willful sinner, he could not benefit. However, because the penalty imposed on all mankind would be paid by someone else, Adam’s offspring could be delivered.

There is an equivalence principle in the Bible, though: ones love is equal to what one is willing to suffer for the other (Romans 5:6-8).  Praise be to God Who showed His infinite love for us!
Title: Re: Merely one perfect phsical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on November 01, 2013, 11:45:03 am
And by the way, I only recently discovered that in reply #7 I once wrote 'physical' instead of 'spiritual', making the sentence nonsense.  You rightly caught that in #9, but at the time I was blind for the error in my quote.  I have since corrected my text.  Sorry.

No worries my friend :)

  • If one physical life would have been sufficient, Adam's death would have paid it all, his offspring would not have been under death, at least before the coming of the Law (Romans 5:14).  So the "corresponding value" here must refer to the value of the guilt of Adam.  But that requires a being that, while indeed a perfect human, is at the same time infinitely more than that.
  • There is the pagan Roman concept of the scales of Justice again.  The Law recognises equivalent restitution for a loss, and limit of revenge by bodily harm.  The second doesn't apply here, as God wasn't bodily harmed, and the first was satisfied when the stolen Fruit of Justice was reattached to the tree of Law by Pontius Pilate.  This does nothing to pay for the guilt of mankind - a caught thief doesn't get off by merely returning (the value of) the stolen goods.

That’s the thing, though. It’s not an issue of guilt. God is not punishing us for something we did not do in the Garden of Eden.

The issue, rather, is one of inherited defect. Just as a child from a reckless mother is born with defects (not guilt), we developed the defects of illness, decrepitude and death (and everything else in between) because, after they sinned, our original parents were unable to produce impeccable offspring.

Remember, the moment they ate of the forbidden fruit they began to die.

This is why Psalms 49:7,8 states, "None of [mankind] can ever redeem a brother. Or give to God a ransom for him, (The ransom price for their life is so precious that it is always beyond their reach)" - Psalms 49:7,8 (Bracket mine.)

In other words, no one could buy back, as it were, the perfection Adam and Eve forfeited for us. As such, all of mankind was destined to get sick, grow old and die forever - and rightly so! After all, we were born “defective.”

Now, Jehovah God could have avoided all this by simply making Adam and Eve’s death instantaneous. That way they would not have been able to bear children and the “contamination” would have been contained to them.

But, see, here’s where we begin to see the magnificence and breadth of Jehovah God’s love:

Ask yourself, had Jehovah God done so, would you or I (or anyone else for that matter) have come to exist? Not at all. Jehovah God would have simply started a new bloodline and an entirely different generation of human beings would have been born.

None of us would have ever existed ...

But that’s not even the most amazing part. The amazing part is that ... it didn’t matter! Not in the slightest!

As the Sovereign, Almighty Lord of the Universe, nothing and no one could frustrate his purposes. Jehovah God had intended for mankind to live eternally on Paradise Earth and that’s what was going to happen no matter what! (Genesis 1:27,28; 2:15)

So, instead of starting over, Jehovah chose, instead, to let matters run their course because, in the end, his original purpose for humanity would still be fulfilled regardless!

However, as it stood, we were doomed. Jehovah God understood this better than anyone and so he lovingly intervened making it possible for another perfect human being to be born and disposed to accept the value of his life as the corresponding ransom, or payment, for what Adam forfeited for us - perfect life.

Since only a perfect **human** life was needed Jehovah could have transferred the life of any of his spirit sons - or angels - into Mary's womb to be born as a perfect **human** being (Job 1:6; 38:7; Luke 3:38). That would have satisfied the legal requirement.

Instead he sent us his "only-begotten" son, Michael, who was given the name Jesus upon birth as a **perfect man**. (John 1:18; Matthew 1:21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Jude 9) But why? Why him?

Because Michael - Jesus in his **pre-human** existence - loved us very, very deeply. Proverbs 8:31 tells us that while he worked alongside Jehovah God in his creative acts as his master worker, he “was especially fond of the sons of men." Jesus loved us so much that he happily volunteered to give up his exalted position in heaven, be born a defenseless child and be brought up amongst flawed, imperfect human beings and then be tested to the limit, humiliated, insulted, mutilated and finally murdered all so that we can have the opportunity to be rescued from our slavery to sin and death and, instead, have everlasting life:

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life." - John 3:16,17,36


Thus, Jesus' ransom sacrifice came at extraordinary personal cost to Jehovah God himself. He looked on as he saw his son get insulted, humiliated, beaten, tortured then horrifically, painfully murdered. He looked on – and could do nothing.

For three days his son was dead. Gone …


Now, I don’t know if you have children or not but not even I as a father could not possibly even begin to imagine the heart rending agony Jehovah God felt. But why did Jehovah God allow himself to be put through all of this suffering? In Romans 5:8 he answers -

“God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

Why did Jehovah God do it? Because he loves us.

And with that, the problem was solved. Christ offered up his perfect life - forever renouncing his humanity and all the generations of offspring he was rightly entitled to - so that we could have it instead.

Now THAT’S love! :)

How, then, can we show Jehovah God and Jesus our gratitude for all they've done – and continue to do – for us? By loving them, obeying them and loving one other -

Jesus taught, “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’”% - Matthew 22:37

%“You must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength.” - Deuteronomy 6:5

“This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.” - 1 John 5:3



Jesus also taught, “If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. Whoever does not love me does not observe my words. The word that you are hearing is not mine, but belongs to the Father who sent me." - John 14:23,24

“If you love me, you will observe my commandments. Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. In turn, whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him.” - John 14:15,21



"By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”" - John 13:35

“ If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar.” -1 John 4:20

“By this we have come to know love, because that one surrendered his life for us, and we are under obligation to surrender our lives for our brothers.” - 1 John 3:16



By doing so we can look forward to continue enjoying Jehovah God and Jesus' love - for all eternity.


#I know I went beyond what you asked and took you on several tangents but, the thing is, once I started writing ... I just couldn’t stop :) (Luke 4:18,19)

Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Biep on November 02, 2013, 03:49:40 am
#I know I went beyond what you asked and took you on several tangents but, the thing is, once I started writing ... I just couldn’t stop :) (Luke 4:18,19)
No problem: thanks to computer technology, posts can always be edited - so you can still do the charitable thing and edit out the spam, moving it to a thread of your own if you want.  But something tells me you won't..

Quote
That’s the thing, though.  It’s not an issue of guilt.  God is not punishing us for something we did not do in the Garden of Eden.
So you disagree again with Jem, who appeals to "scales of justice" and the eye-for-an-eye rule, which are about punishment.  I wish she were here to defend her view.  I have little enough energy as it is, and having this thread expand into a whole spectrum of possible views of Jesus' sacrifice is not something I look forward to.

The value of Jesus' sacrifice must be large enough to cover everything it intends to repair, though.  You insist (without Biblical support as far as I know) He didn't die for Adam's sake - but I know He did for mine, so my infinite guilt must be covered - and yours, and hers, and his.
And then there is the buying free of the whole creation (Romans 8:18-23) which is in satan's hands (http:///forums/index.php?topic=6020121.msg1275124410#msg1275124410).

Quote
The issue, rather, is one of inherited defect.
And that is a different aspect again.  Let's call the payment for that the docter's fee.  (Personally I disagree, I think the refiner's fire will do the cleansing, partly in this world, partly when our bodies are glorified (1 Corinthians 3:15), but let's agree for the sake of argument that this, too is paid from Jesus' sacrifice.)

So Jesus' ransom must cover at least:
Code: [Select]
Number of souls saved x ramson price of one soul
Redemption price for the whole of creation
Doctor's fee for Adam (plus for each of us?)
That's the minimum worth of the sacrifice Jesus made, assuming it was effective (as we both believe).  We know that the whole of creation doesn't suffice to pay for one soul (Matthew 16:26).  If we take from Revelation that at least 144.000 people will be saved, then this makes for Jesus having a worth of at least 144.001 creations and then some.
Did I miss anything?
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on November 02, 2013, 06:45:50 am
So you disagree again with Jem, who appeals to "scales of justice" and the eye-for-an-eye rule, which are about punishment.
These are also about equivalence. What was lost, perfect life, could only be redeemed in exchange of the same, perfect life.

As I shared with you earlier, Christ offered up his perfect life - forever renouncing his humanity and all the generations of offspring he was rightly entitled to - so that we could have it instead. (This is immensely significant since his murder was unjust and, consequently, had the right to be resurrected as a man (as was Lazarus, for instance) and even raise a family.)
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on November 02, 2013, 07:21:20 am
You insist (without Biblical support as far as I know) He didn't die for Adam's sake.
Consider the following:

Bernie Madoff pillaged billions of dollars from his investors leaving them destitute (for the sake of illustration). A wealthy benefactor comes onto the scene and, moved by all their suffering, offers to repay what Madoff stole despite it costing him his fortune.

Now, would it be just for this benefactor to also restore Madoff's vast wealth back to him, in effect, rewarding him for his larceny?
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 10, 2019, 12:32:53 pm
If I understand Jem correctly, she claims that the Bible teaches that all Jesus had to pay was one single perfect physical human life, in exchange for the one Adam forfeited.
So far, as Biblical support, all she has given (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022196.msg1275163906#msg1275163906) is the text "It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Cor 15:45; Gen 2:7), to which I replied in this post (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022196.msg1275164557#msg1275164557).

Now if a Roman Catholic makes a claim that seems to go against the Biblical message, there often is an easy explanation: very broadly stated, the Bible is not their final authority; their magisterium is.  But the magisterium of the Jehovah's Witnesses, for all I know, claims that the Bible is to have the last word - which raises the question: where in the Bible is this doctrine taught?

Christians generally accept that Christ paid on the cross for our sins - and that includes Adam's sin, even though Adam himself already paid for his sin with his life.  The difference appears when the claim is made that one perfect human life is all payment that was needed to buy all of us free.

So, where in the Bible is that doctrine taught?
There are deep flaws in all this thinking, whether biblical verses can be dredged up in support of it or not. The major flaw is in applying economic theory to soul status. Men have always understood buying and selling, price and payment, yet there has been no attempt at metaphysical underpinning, no one has noticed the metaphysical underpinning to be missing, and it cannot be done since the metaphysical underpinning does not exist.

The other flaw is considering the Invisible God to be a bargainer, someone looking for a price. The depiction is cold and machine-like, as if God is looking for balances until His Son persuaded Him to show some compassion, for Christ’s sake. Instead Christ is the Face of the Invisible God, showing God’s compassion where no one can say what the Invisible God may be like. Yet compassion is useless, if faced by hatred and aggression.

In general the Invisible God is portrayed in Christianity as having the heart of a slave owner, as seen in this sentence, “The difference appears when the claim is made that one perfect human life is all payment that was needed to buy all of us free.” So far this has not “registered” on anyone’s mind as suspicious and probably wrong, and the Old Testament did portray the Invisible God this way. Maybe He is a tax collector, as well.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 12, 2019, 09:56:34 pm

The major flaw is in applying economic theory to soul status.

Soul status? What does that even mean?
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 13, 2019, 07:40:14 am

The major flaw is in applying economic theory to soul status.

Soul status? What does that even mean?
If you are a Christian, you believe that you have a created soul. Nonetheless as you ask this question, it is evident you have not been thinking, “I have a soul,” or asking yourself, “What are my soul's properties?” These are questions your religion does not address, no one seeming to care about the soul. Since you have no ideation on the question, although it is your own soul at stake, you demand I fill in the blanks, as I shall attempt to do. In general for two thousand years Christians have applied economics to the question of salvation, asserting that there is a “cost” for sin, and saying that Jesus “paid the price for man's sin.” Such statements are utterly devoid of existential content or metaphysical underpinnings, about why we should accept cost structures in relation to the purity or elevation of spirit. The state of “sinfulness” is not defined metaphysically, nor its cure.

As a Christian you come talking about the price of salvation, and I’d counter that salvation cannot be bought. A major flaw is that you are treating the Invisible God like a store owner, a tax collector, or perhaps some kind of karmic machine, meting out punishments for crimes until a “balance” is achieved. This karmic machine was going to keep operating mindlessly, you insist, until the Son agreed to sacrifice Himself, after which all debts are regarded to be cancelled. Your theory about how the soul is purified is indeed a karmic one, that once the punishments are meted, the soul is restored to a state of health. But you add that mankind deserved eternal punishment, from which Jesus gave relief. You are left with the proposition that the Invisible God intends to wave a magic wand, granting the souls purity that otherwise eternal punishment would have provided.

So as a Christian it is upon you to demonstrate the metaphysics underlying your proposition that Jesus has “paid the debt for sins.” First explain the process of incurring a debt, in spiritual terms (soul status). Next explain how the usual mode of punishment restores health to a soul (paying the debt). Finally explain the special dispensation you expect to be granted by the Invisible God, bypassing the usual route of punishment. If you can’t explain these things, you are left proposing that the Christians can enter Heaven with their sin intact. That is to say, you’d be proposing man can remain in a fallen state, in Heaven. If you accept even this, you are saying Heaven will be filled with quarrels, war, jealousy, hatred and crime. Or, are these not a consequence of sinfulness?
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 13, 2019, 11:28:24 am

The major flaw is in applying economic theory to soul status.

Soul status? What does that even mean?
If you are a Christian, you believe that you have a created soul.

You appear to be misinformed. All Christians believe as per Genesis 2:7-

"And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

So, you see, we don't have a soul but are a soul.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 13, 2019, 03:22:41 pm
If you are a Christian, you believe that you have a created soul.

You appear to be misinformed. All Christians believe as per Genesis 2:7-

"And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

So, you see, we don't have a soul but are a soul.
The reason to say “have,” is that although you are a created soul, this is in your depths and you have not seen it! If you have seen your soul, please list its properties and powers. Further, please list the marks of the soul proving it was made by God. This should be rather straightforward for you, if you are a cognoscente, but if you had seen the soul you would not need to engage in theology. You’d know God must exist, from self-knowledge.

You are correct that you are a soul, but are you truly motivated for its salvation? When the soul is seen and it has sufficient bliss, a dreadful angst enters that makes the approach of a true authority, such as Jesus, refreshing like water to a man near dying in a desert. From failure to perceive the soul, men are wrongfully proud, thinking their body to be a secure platform, and this is the source of the persecution of the saints, who must be silent.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 13, 2019, 07:27:50 pm
If you are a Christian, you believe that you have a created soul.

You appear to be misinformed. All Christians believe as per Genesis 2:7-

"And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

So, you see, we don't have a soul but are a soul.
The reason to say “have,” is that although you are a created soul, this is in your depths and you have not seen it! If you have seen your soul, please list its properties and powers.

Since I literally am a soul I see it every single time I look in a mirror.

Quote
Further, please list the marks of the soul proving it was made by God.

If exceptional intellect is required to merely duplicate the breathtakingly daedal designs and systems present in nature then much more the original being replicated. In this way, Creation itself is probative of our Creator's necessary existence.

As Romans 1:20 explicates: “For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward because they are perceived by the things made.” So indisputable is this proof for a wise Creator that the Scriptures simply point out: “The senseless one has said in his heart: ‘There is no Jehovah.’”— Psalms 14:1

Quote
You are correct that you are a soul, but are you truly motivated for its salvation?

Why wouldn't I be? I like being alive :)
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 14, 2019, 02:08:28 pm
If you are a Christian, you believe that you have a created soul.

You appear to be misinformed. All Christians believe as per Genesis 2:7-

"And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

So, you see, we don't have a soul but are a soul.
The reason to say “have,” is that although you are a created soul, this is in your depths and you have not seen it! If you have seen your soul, please list its properties and powers.

Since I literally am a soul I see it every single time I look in a mirror.

Quote
Further, please list the marks of the soul proving it was made by God.

If exceptional intellect is required to merely duplicate the breathtakingly daedal designs and systems present in nature then much more the original being replicated. In this way, Creation itself is probative of our Creator's necessary existence.

As Romans 1:20 explicates: “For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward because they are perceived by the things made.” So indisputable is this proof for a wise Creator that the Scriptures simply point out: “The senseless one has said in his heart: ‘There is no Jehovah.’”— Psalms 14:1

Quote
You are correct that you are a soul, but are you truly motivated for its salvation?

Why wouldn't I be? I like being alive :)
jc: Let us first note that you have failed to supply a metaphysics for the application of economic theory to soul status, that I must therefore take as an admission no such metaphysics exists in Christianity, nor has anyone understand that this is necessary.

mm: Since I literally am a soul I see it every single time I look in a mirror.

jc: This is what you offer in lieu of the requested list of properties and powers? If so, I must understand this to be an admission that your idea is the soul is limited to the body, that the physical properties and powers are all you admit to the soul. In this you are not different from the materialists, who say that biochemistry and nerves explain the mind.

mm: If exceptional intellect is required to merely duplicate the breathtakingly daedal designs and systems present in nature then much more the original being replicated. In this way, Creation itself is probative of our Creator's necessary existence.

jc: This is a small external argument, where I asked you to find the marks in the soul itself of the Creator’s hand, creating it. Your argument won’t persuade the materialists, nor do you have the certainty of knowing God exists that a cognoscente would have.

mm: As Romans 1:20 explicates: “For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward because they are perceived by the things made.” So indisputable is this proof for a wise Creator that the Scriptures simply point out: “The senseless one has said in his heart: ‘There is no Jehovah.’”— Psalms 14:1

jc: You’ve entirely bypassed the issue of soul, that I must understand as an admission you do not know the soul, you do not care about the soul, and no one can tell you about the soul. You cite scripture, but do the ones who wrote this scripture know about the soul? The prophets have presented no evidence they know of it, even to list its basic structures!

mm: Why wouldn't I be? I like being alive

jc: So say all, but you do not seek an authority to reassure you the soul is immortal. For all you or even the angels knows, God intends to destroy the souls one day, or may not even have the power to sustain them eternally. This burning question bothers angels, but not men. Though the soul exists, men have no living connection to it, and are therefore not vitally concerned about their own salvation. These thin tales of religion beguile them.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 14, 2019, 02:17:27 pm


jc: So say all, but you do not seek an authority to reassure you the soul is immortal.

When did I ever claim "the soul is immortal"?
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 14, 2019, 02:20:54 pm




jc: You’ve entirely bypassed the issue of soul, that I must understand as an admission you do not know the soul, you do not care about the soul, and no one can tell you about the soul.


This was already addressed here (https://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022408.msg1275716731#msg1275716731)
.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 14, 2019, 02:46:20 pm




jc: You’ve entirely bypassed the issue of soul, that I must understand as an admission you do not know the soul, you do not care about the soul, and no one can tell you about the soul.


This was already addressed here (https://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022408.msg1275716731#msg1275716731)
.
The sentence in question is, “All Christians believe as per Genesis 2:7-‘And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.’”

I see therefore that you are a reader, not a knower, nor do you have interest in meeting a knower or becoming a knower. Yet you are accepting one cognoscente, which is to say whoever penned this verse, unless you are testifying and admitting that all humans are blind instruments of the Holy Spirit, having no knowledge for themselves.

My point would be that though the word “soul” is mentioned, it is not described in even tiny measure, the practical import of which is that most think only about a bag of gas, which is to say they try to relate ideas of a soul to ideas they have based from the senses. You have read, you decided you believe, but the idea you believe in has no substantive content. You believe you are a soul, but you do not know what a soul is, and do not care.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 14, 2019, 03:09:11 pm




jc: You’ve entirely bypassed the issue of soul, that I must understand as an admission you do not know the soul, you do not care about the soul, and no one can tell you about the soul.


This was already addressed here (https://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/index.php?topic=6022408.msg1275716731#msg1275716731)
.
The sentence in question is, “All Christians believe as per Genesis 2:7-‘And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.’”


My point would be that though the word “soul” is mentioned, it is not described in even tiny measure,

It's all pretty simple really. For instance, was Adam's body a soul before Jehovah God infused it with life energy or after? (cf. Genesis 7:22; Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 14, 2019, 03:27:10 pm

It's all pretty simple really. For instance, was Adam's body a soul before Jehovah God infused it with life energy or after? (cf. Genesis 7:22; Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)
Yes, so now I understand you equate the body with the soul, not believing that there is a spiritual soul that is separable from the body and with parts that religion hasn’t described.

Yet even to say “breathed into,” or “infused with life energy,” are structurally devoid of content. This is no mechanism, it is mere poetry. You have not even known the body.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 14, 2019, 03:37:29 pm

jc: So say all, but you do not seek an authority to reassure you the soul is immortal.
When did I ever claim "the soul is immortal"?
You said you liked to be alive, and if you truly do it becomes inconsistent when you say you don’t care if your existence will continue. From this statement you prove you do not truly like to be alive, which is to say there is nothing deep in you, that reaches for forever.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 15, 2019, 10:09:01 am

jc: So say all, but you do not seek an authority to reassure you the soul is immortal.
When did I ever claim "the soul is immortal"?
You said you liked to be alive, and if you truly do it becomes inconsistent when you say you don’t care if your existence will continue. From this statement you prove you do not truly like to be alive, which is to say there is nothing deep in you, that reaches for forever.

Strawman. Try again.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 15, 2019, 10:15:34 am

It's all pretty simple really. For instance, was Adam's body a soul before Jehovah God infused it with life energy or after? (cf. Genesis 7:22; Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)
Yes, so now I understand you equate the body with the soul, not believing that there is a spiritual soul that is separable from the body and with parts that religion hasn’t described.

Here, let me fix your Strawman-


"Yes, so now I understand you equate the body with it's life force as the soul not just the body itself since a dead body is not a soul, not believing that there is a spiritual soul that is separable from the body and with parts that religion hasn’t described."


Glad I could help :)


(Btw, you do know you can just ask if there's anything about my position you don't understand, right? :) )
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 15, 2019, 10:16:56 am

It's all pretty simple really. For instance, was Adam's body a soul before Jehovah God infused it with life energy or after? (cf. Genesis 7:22; Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)
Yet even to say “breathed into,” or “infused with life energy,” are structurally devoid of content. This is no mechanism, it is mere poetry.

How so?
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 15, 2019, 05:23:46 pm

jc: So say all, but you do not seek an authority to reassure you the soul is immortal.
When did I ever claim "the soul is immortal"?
You said you liked to be alive, and if you truly do it becomes inconsistent when you say you don’t care if your existence will continue. From this statement you prove you do not truly like to be alive, which is to say there is nothing deep in you, that reaches for forever.

Strawman. Try again.
I'm being intentionally terse, but the argument is not a straw man. I'd like to point out further that when you say, “When did I ever claim 'the soul is immortal'?”, what you really mean to say is, “When did I ever claim that I believe 'the soul is immortal'?” You should admit that whether the soul exists or not, and whether it is immortal or not, are not questions you get to decide. You would have to investigate.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 15, 2019, 05:30:11 pm

jc: So say all, but you do not seek an authority to reassure you the soul is immortal.
When did I ever claim "the soul is immortal"?
You said you liked to be alive, and if you truly do it becomes inconsistent when you say you don’t care if your existence will continue. From this statement you prove you do not truly like to be alive, which is to say there is nothing deep in you, that reaches for forever.

Strawman. Try again.
I'm being intentionally terse, but the argument is not a straw man.

So when did I ever claim "the soul is immortal"?
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 15, 2019, 05:36:41 pm

It's all pretty simple really. For instance, was Adam's body a soul before Jehovah God infused it with life energy or after? (cf. Genesis 7:22; Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)
Yes, so now I understand you equate the body with the soul, not believing that there is a spiritual soul that is separable from the body and with parts that religion hasn’t described.

Here, let me fix your Strawman-


"Yes, so now I understand you equate the body with it's life force as the soul not just the body itself since a dead body is not a soul, not believing that there is a spiritual soul that is separable from the body and with parts that religion hasn’t described."


Glad I could help :)


(Btw, you do know you can just ask if there's anything about my position you don't understand, right? :) )
You are interpreting this scripture in a novel way, where most Christians leave it in a fog. Stating explicitly that soul = body + life force, you run aground where Christians hate to run aground, that you have no explanation for the resurrection expected for all dead bodies. In particular, what has God been doing with your individual “life force,” between the time that you die and the expected mass resurrection? Or are you saying you do not have an individual life force, that God will simply breathe into your body and you will reappear, with memories, tendencies, and desires intact? What “stored” these desires? I've been asking you many specific questions, none of which you have answered. Here explain the mechanism of the life force leaving the body then being restored, with memories intact. If you cannot explain this, then explain why your Bible does not explain it. It would seem those you accept as knowers or cognoscenti, gave little evidence of their qualifications, ignoring basic questions.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 15, 2019, 05:44:32 pm

It's all pretty simple really. For instance, was Adam's body a soul before Jehovah God infused it with life energy or after? (cf. Genesis 7:22; Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)
Yet even to say “breathed into,” or “infused with life energy,” are structurally devoid of content. This is no mechanism, it is mere poetry.

How so?
Remember that “life energy” is YOUR interpretation of, “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.” So I could ask your qualifications to interpret it this specific way, where your scripture said BREATH. Are you thinking, “What could it possibly be, but life energy?” If so, tell me the nature of this life energy. What is its source, and what it's duration? Is it spirit, matter, or something like electricity? If you do not know the nature of what you call “life energy,” how is that using the term meaningfully? Again I'm asking questions, waiting for answers, as you stated I could do anytime and you'll respond.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 15, 2019, 06:02:18 pm

It's all pretty simple really. For instance, was Adam's body a soul before Jehovah God infused it with life energy or after? (cf. Genesis 7:22; Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)
Yes, so now I understand you equate the body with the soul, not believing that there is a spiritual soul that is separable from the body and with parts that religion hasn’t described.

Here, let me fix your Strawman-


"Yes, so now I understand you equate the body with it's life force as the soul not just the body itself since a dead body is not a soul, not believing that there is a spiritual soul that is separable from the body and with parts that religion hasn’t described."


Glad I could help :)


(Btw, you do know you can just ask if there's anything about my position you don't understand, right? :) )
In particular, what has God been doing with your individual “life force,” between the time that you die and the expected mass resurrection? Or are you saying you do not have an individual life force, that God will simply breathe into your body and you will reappear, with memories, tendencies, and desires intact? What “stored” these desires? I've been asking you many specific questions, none of which you have answered. Here explain the mechanism of the life force leaving the body then being restored, with memories intact. If you cannot explain this, then explain why your Bible does not explain it. It would seem those you accept as knowers or cognoscenti, gave little evidence of their qualifications, ignoring basic questions.

Concerning the anticipated resurrection of those who have died, Christ Jesus explicated, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life." (John 5:28, 29)

If you notice, Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected. In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated. (cf. Matthew 19:28) Of course this entails storing an unimaginable volume of details, memories, experiences, features, qualities, attributes, genetic data, etc., etc. but this is perfectly feasible for our Almighty Creator. (cf. Isaiah 40:26)

So where is all of the life energy of all those who have died? At  Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read that when someone dies “the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” Accordingly, much like electricity returning to a power supply, upon death a person's life energy or spirit (נְשָׁמָה) (https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002739#h=9:0-9:730) simply returns to he who is the very source of all life, Jehovah God. (Psalm 36:9)

What else can I clarify for you? :)
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 15, 2019, 06:23:48 pm
Concerning the anticipated resurrection of those who have died, Christ Jesus explicated, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life." (John 5:28, 29)

If you notice, Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected. In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated. (cf. Matthew 19:28) Of course this entails storing an unimaginable volume of details, memories, experiences, features, qualities, attributes, genetic data, etc., etc. but this is perfectly feasible for our Almighty Creator. (cf. Isaiah 40:26)

So where is all of the life energy of all those who have died? At  Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read that when someone dies “the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” Accordingly, much like electricity returning to a power supply, upon death a person's life energy or spirit simply returns to he who is the very source of all life, Jehovah God. (Psalm 36:9)

What else can I clarify for you? :)
Again, you are attempting to speak as an authority, proposing a mechanism for where memories would be stored that Jesus did not give! From my perspective the reply is a little humorous, for I have watched the Holy Spirit stepping in to provide “aid” to human thoughts and emotions, as the Christians also testify occurs when they say the Holy Spirit “lives in them.” The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation. You say it is temporary, but really if God is storing everything, “you” no longer exist but in His Mind, which is not real existence.

So answer me this too, if God is going to store all your memories, what about the bad memories? Is He going to restore only good memories, and if so how would you say individuality and free choice have been maintained? What about your negative tendencies? Is God going to obliterate those, and if so why did He allow them in the first place in your current body? You are standing all alone in Christendom with a theory of God storing people in His Mind at death, with which few other Christians would agree.

In fact it appears you generated this theory only in response to my assertions, and that it is not something you know or ever thought about before. It looks like you are attempting to oppose me, for the sake of opposition. This means your mind is writing a story from imagination, not from reality.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 15, 2019, 06:55:14 pm
Concerning the anticipated resurrection of those who have died, Christ Jesus explicated, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life." (John 5:28, 29)

If you notice, Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected. In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated. (cf. Matthew 19:28) Of course this entails storing an unimaginable volume of details, memories, experiences, features, qualities, attributes, genetic data, etc., etc. but this is perfectly feasible for our Almighty Creator. (cf. Isaiah 40:26)

So where is all of the life energy of all those who have died? At  Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read that when someone dies “the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” Accordingly, much like electricity returning to a power supply, upon death a person's life energy or spirit simply returns to he who is the very source of all life, Jehovah God. (Psalm 36:9)

What else can I clarify for you? :)
I have watched the Holy Spirit stepping in to provide “aid” to human thoughts and emotions.

Prove it.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 15, 2019, 06:56:39 pm
Concerning the anticipated resurrection of those who have died, Christ Jesus explicated, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life." (John 5:28, 29)

If you notice, Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected. In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated. (cf. Matthew 19:28) Of course this entails storing an unimaginable volume of details, memories, experiences, features, qualities, attributes, genetic data, etc., etc. but this is perfectly feasible for our Almighty Creator. (cf. Isaiah 40:26)

So where is all of the life energy of all those who have died? At  Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read that when someone dies “the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” Accordingly, much like electricity returning to a power supply, upon death a person's life energy or spirit simply returns to he who is the very source of all life, Jehovah God. (Psalm 36:9)

What else can I clarify for you? :)
The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.

The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 15, 2019, 07:06:00 pm
Concerning the anticipated resurrection of those who have died, Christ Jesus explicated, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life." (John 5:28, 29)

If you notice, Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected. In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated. (cf. Matthew 19:28) Of course this entails storing an unimaginable volume of details, memories, experiences, features, qualities, attributes, genetic data, etc., etc. but this is perfectly feasible for our Almighty Creator. (cf. Isaiah 40:26)

So where is all of the life energy of all those who have died? At  Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read that when someone dies “the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” Accordingly, much like electricity returning to a power supply, upon death a person's life energy or spirit simply returns to he who is the very source of all life, Jehovah God. (Psalm 36:9)

What else can I clarify for you? :)
Quote
So answer me this too, if God is going to store all your memories, what about the bad memories? Is He going to restore only good memories?

Why wouldn't God restore all their memories?

Quote
What about your negative tendencies? Is God going to obliterate those, and if so why did He allow them in the first place in your current body?


Such negative tendencies are the result of the sin we've all inherited from our very first parents, Adam and Eve. (cf. Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12; 7:14-25) Since everything God does is perfect all who are re-created will be free from all of its deleterious effects.

Quote
You are standing all alone in Christendom with a theory of God storing people in His Mind at death, with which few other Christians would agree.

As I've already demonstrated with the Scriptures, this is what Christ taught and all Christians align with Christ's teachings.


Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 16, 2019, 06:49:21 am
I have watched the Holy Spirit stepping in to provide “aid” to human thoughts and emotions.
Prove it.
There's no need to prove it, for the Christians celebrate it continuously. If they rejoice that the Holy Spirit “lives in them,” why should it be remarkable this can be observed by outsiders? Can't you see it? Or are you a Christian who says the Holy Spirit does not live in you? This would be quite a novelty! You would then be admitting you receive no guidance from the Holy Spirit, where every other Christian is saying Jesus has indeed sent “the comforter,” who guides them inwardly from God's Will.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 16, 2019, 06:57:56 am
The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.
The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
You're begging the question, since this is the controversy between us. I say the soul separates from the body at death, you say the life force returns to the Creator with no further relation to the person, and that the Creator retains the memories and personality of the individual, to be restored at a later date. The fact is you do not really know what death is. You're thinking of a dead body, but you do not know what happened to the person inside the body. It is invalid to attempt to make reference to “common knowledge” about death, when this does not exist. Dead bodies are seen, not the inner processes.

You are also unable to provide scriptural support for your ideas, but appear to be making them up as you go along. What you have in the Bible is a collection of poetic verses, open to varied interpretations. No one else has ever stated your theory of “storage by Mind,” but also no one else has ever been challenged to find a solid teaching about the soul in the Bible. It can't be done, so you grasp at straws.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 16, 2019, 07:34:34 am
Quote
So answer me this too, if God is going to store all your memories, what about the bad memories? Is He going to restore only good memories?

Why wouldn't God restore all their memories?

Quote
What about your negative tendencies? Is God going to obliterate those, and if so why did He allow them in the first place in your current body?


Such negative tendencies are the result of the sin we've all inherited from our very first parents, Adam and Eve. (cf. Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12; 7:14-25) Since everything God does is perfect all who are re-created will be free from all of its deleterious effects.

Quote
You are standing all alone in Christendom with a theory of God storing people in His Mind at death, with which few other Christians would agree.

As I've already demonstrated with the Scriptures, this is what Christ taught and all Christians align with Christ's teachings.
mm: Why wouldn't God restore all their memories?

jc: Perhaps you are very young or have had no bad experiences, but I think it is more likely you are opposing me only for the sake of opposition, and failing to think realistically about the tragedies in life.  You are here arguing that people should remember all of their suffering in clear detail, no matter how painful or horrible. I'd have thought that to be a type of hell, and God's mercy would be in forgetting.

mm: Such negative tendencies are the result of the sin we've all inherited from our very first parents, Adam and Eve. (cf. Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12; 7:14-25) Since everything God does is perfect all who are re-created will be free from all of its deleterious effects.

jc: Ah, so it is your theory the negative tendencies will not be restored. The mechanism of purification you are proposing is that God will remember all aspects about the personality, but will reinstate the personality after a period of annihilation without its negative side. I'd call this the “magic wand effect.”

Yet, this is indeed what Christians expect, in varied ways. Some pray to God, “Purify me,” and are sure God will be compelled to respond to such an earnest and holy plea! You'll have to admit you have only poetry to back up your story, and though I'd shudder at the “annihilation” part, who am I to stand in the way of any human attaining purity? If you want purity, though, why don't you try to get it right now? Are you claiming this is an additional flaw of the fall, that you not only do not want purity, but rejoice in your negative tendencies (wickedness)? Yet Christianity presents no mechanisms for seeking purity.

mm: As I've already demonstrated with the Scriptures, this is what Christ taught and all Christians align with Christ's teachings.

jc: You have not done so! You said Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected, but then added your private interpretation not shared by other Christians, that, “In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated.” I've asked a question no one asked before, and your mind is operating extempore, writing a story by imagination while motivated for opposition. If this is not so, show me other places this theory exists.

The issue of the soul has been a gray area in Christianity, and no one has scrutinized it because no one really cares. This is a proof of what I've said, if the soul exists men feel no living connection to it. You obviously feel none, eager to deny it and submit to annihilation of your being! Further here, it can be shown each Christian harbors his own unique brand of Christianity, dissimilar in fine points to the others. On a macro scale the arguing sects form, each convinced they alone are aligned with Christ.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 16, 2019, 08:27:06 am
The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.
The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
I say the soul separates from the body at death, you say the life force returns to the Creator with no further relation to the person, and that the Creator retains the memories and personality of the individual, to be restored at a later date.

I don't say anything since I didn't author the Bible.

That being the case, why should anyone accept you as a better authority than Jehovah God, our Creator?
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 16, 2019, 08:39:34 am

jc: Perhaps you are very young or have had no bad experiences, but I think it is more likely you are opposing me only for the sake of opposition, and failing to think realistically about the tragedies in life.  You are here arguing that people should remember all of their suffering in clear detail, no matter how painful or horrible. I'd have thought that to be a type of hell, and God's mercy would be in forgetting.

You misunderstand since a memory can be divorced from the pain experienced. Just ask mothers who've given birth naturally.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 16, 2019, 08:54:07 am
jc: Ah, so it is your theory the negative tendencies will not be restored. The mechanism of purification you are proposing is that God will remember all aspects about the personality, but will reinstate the personality after a period of annihilation without its negative side.

No, not theory, fact:

"For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." -1 Corinthians 15:22

Christ "gave himself for our sins so that he might rescue us from the present wicked system of things." -Galatians 1:4

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." -John 3:16

"For if by the trespass of the one man [Adam] death ruled as king through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness . .. through the one person, Jesus Christ!" -Romans 5:17 (Bracket mine.)

"For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:23

"Just as through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned . . . so too through one act of justification [Christ's ransom sacrifice] the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. For just as through the disobedience of the one man [Adam] many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person [Christ Jesus] many will be made righteous." -Romans 5:12, 18, 19 (Brackets mine.)
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 16, 2019, 09:12:43 am

jc: You said Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected, but then added your private interpretation not shared by other Christians, that, “In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated.”


On the subject of the Koine terms utilized to describe a burial place or tomb, A. T. Robertson in Word Pictures in the New Testament (1932, Vol. V, p. 87) states: “Taphos (grave) presents the notion of burial (thapto, to bury) as in Matt. 23:27, mnemeion (from mnaomai, mimnesko, to remind) is a memorial (sepulchre as a monument).” Related to mne·meiʹon is the word mneʹma, which has a corresponding meaning, referring also to “a memorial or record of a thing or a dead person, then a sepulchral monument, and hence a tomb.”​—Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1981, Vol. 2, p. 173.

Notably, inscriptions on the tombs of Israelite origin are incredibly rare and, when discovered, typically only have the name. The exceptional kings of Judah left absolutely no extraordinary monuments with their praises and exploits etched thereon, as did the kings of different nations. Accordingly this makes indisputable that the priority of faithful men of ancient eras was that their name remain in the “book of remembrance” discussed at Malachi 3:16.​—cf Ecclesiastes 7:1.

Taking into consideration the foundational concept of commemoration tied to mne·meiʹon, the usage of this expression (and not taʹphos) at John 5:28 concerning the resurrection of “all those in the memorial tombs” is especially apt and contrasts dramatically with the notion of total repudiation as well as effacement from all memory as depicted by Gehenna (https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001642). (Matthew 10:28; 23:33; Mark 9:43) The emphasis placed on burial by the Hebrews is an indication of their concern that they be remembered, principally by Jehovah God in whom they had faith as “the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” (Hebrews 11:1, 2, 6)

Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 16, 2019, 09:30:27 am
I have watched the Holy Spirit stepping in to provide “aid” to human thoughts and emotions.
Prove it.
There's no need to prove it,

"That which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

As such, consider your claims dismissed.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 16, 2019, 09:32:25 am
The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.
The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
I say the soul separates from the body at death.

God promised Adam and Eve, “As for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” (Genesis 2:17)

In turn Satan disaffirmed, “YOU positively will not die.” (Genesis 3:4)

Who do you believe? Jehovah God or Satan?

Are Adam and Eve dead or alive?
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: jayceeii on June 16, 2019, 01:34:25 pm
The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.
The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
I say the soul separates from the body at death, you say the life force returns to the Creator with no further relation to the person, and that the Creator retains the memories and personality of the individual, to be restored at a later date.
I don't say anything since I didn't author the Bible.

That being the case, why should anyone accept you as a better authority than Jehovah God, our Creator?
No, you have said exactly this. Let me quote your original words, that you've been re-quoting but seem to forget at your convenience. If I have not summarized your position accurately, please supply such a summary.
Concerning the anticipated resurrection of those who have died, Christ Jesus explicated, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life." (John 5:28, 29)

If you notice, Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected. In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated. (cf. Matthew 19:28) Of course this entails storing an unimaginable volume of details, memories, experiences, features, qualities, attributes, genetic data, etc., etc. but this is perfectly feasible for our Almighty Creator. (cf. Isaiah 40:26)

So where is all of the life energy of all those who have died? At  Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read that when someone dies “the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” Accordingly, much like electricity returning to a power supply, upon death a person's life energy or spirit simply returns to he who is the very source of all life, Jehovah God. (Psalm 36:9)

Your argument devolves, as I've stated before, into saying the Bible appeared from the Holy Spirit wielding humans as blind instruments, utterly devoid of knowledge themselves. It was human hands that authored the Bible, not God directly. This appears to be a huge area of unclarity in your thinking, though you share this unclarity with Christians generally. You are also wildly incorrect to presume I am attempting to persuade you that I am a better authority than those authoring the Bible, because I see things they didn't see and ask questions they didn't ask. For me it's just a boring Sunday afternoon where I didn't go to church, which like Blake wrote, appear to be dark unhappy dens of some kind.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 16, 2019, 01:44:54 pm

No, you have said exactly this. Let me quote your original words, that you've been re-quoting but seem to forget at your convenience. If I have not summarized your position accurately, please supply such a summary.
Concerning the anticipated resurrection of those who have died, Christ Jesus explicated, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life." (John 5:28, 29)

If you notice, Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected. In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated. (cf. Matthew 19:28) Of course this entails storing an unimaginable volume of details, memories, experiences, features, qualities, attributes, genetic data, etc., etc. but this is perfectly feasible for our Almighty Creator. (cf. Isaiah 40:26)

So where is all of the life energy of all those who have died? At  Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read that when someone dies “the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” Accordingly, much like electricity returning to a power supply, upon death a person's life energy or spirit simply returns to he who is the very source of all life, Jehovah God. (Psalm 36:9)

You're not actually suggesting that I am the author of John, Isaiah, Ecclesiastes, Psalms or Matthew, are you?
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 16, 2019, 01:47:16 pm
You are also wildly incorrect to presume I am attempting to persuade you that I am a better authority than those authoring the Bible.


Which is why you continually fail to persuade.
Title: Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
Post by: Maxximiliann on June 16, 2019, 01:54:30 pm

Your argument devolves, as I've stated before, into saying the Bible appeared from the Holy Spirit wielding humans as blind instruments, utterly devoid of knowledge themselves.

Here, let me fix your Strawman-

"Your argument devolves hinges, as I've stated before, into saying on the Bible appeared from the Holy Spirit wielding humans as blind instruments, utterly devoid of knowledge themselves having been penned by capable amanuenses inspired by Jehovah God's holy spirit to record his thoughts for our benefit and enlightenment.

Glad I could help :)



(Btw, you do know you can just ask if there's anything about my position that goes over your head, right?)