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Archived => Eternity => Topic started by: faithfulserver on August 04, 2013, 10:33:14 pm

Title: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 04, 2013, 10:33:14 pm
What is the view of Reasonable Faith, i.e. William Lane Craig, about salvation for eternity; in other words, after a person is born-again does Craig and the proponents of this site believe eternal life (initial salvation, new birth, regeneration of the spirit) can be lost?

I know the Roman Catholics, Wesley, lots of other denominations and probably the vast majority of Christendom believe that a person who is saved can lose salvation and still go to Hell.

I believe just as person can only be born of the flesh once, they can only be born-again once and have eternal life once. In other words, a person can't be born-again, lose salvation, gain it back, then lose it again, etc. God simply would not save that person in the first place if salvation could be lost, i.e. salvation by works lest anyone should boast.


Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: False Entity on August 04, 2013, 10:57:32 pm
It isn't always a one-time thing. You must commit and maintain this relationship with God until death, which can be hard.

I was "saved" at age 8, yet have since lost my faith and remain a skeptic as of now. However, I believe that if one is TRULY saved, that it is impossible to lose it. I would say most Christians haven't experienced a true rebirth.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 04, 2013, 11:55:46 pm
It isn't always a one-time thing. You must commit and maintain this relationship with God until death, which can be hard.

I was "saved" at age 8, yet have since lost my faith and remain a skeptic as of now. However, I believe that if one is TRULY saved, that it is impossible to lose it. I would say most Christians haven't experienced a true rebirth.

Just my two cents.
I understand that is your view, but the question put forth, What view of Reasonable Faith and William Lane Craig?

How do you reconcile your view with Eph. 2.9 "not of works lest anyone should boast" and those born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28)?

Since salvation is not of works and you claim you are not saved now then you were never saved at 8 either, nor is age 8 anywhere near the age of accountability for genuine authentic conversion. I would put that free choice somewhere in the teens.

Could it be said that you had a faith in a faith and a false Christ that could be lost so it was not the faith that could never be lost in the one true Jesus?

Are you contradicting yourself when you said "if one is TRULY saved, that it is impossible to lose it" and "It isn't always a one-time thing. You must commit and maintain this relationship with God until death, which can be hard" work?






Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: False Entity on August 05, 2013, 01:39:54 pm
I can't answer for the people of RF or for WLC, these are merely the forums where general people talk about things.

I don't think that reconciling is needed. I believe that if someone is truly saved, that it cannot be lost; one is saved by grace.

Notice that when I said I was "saved", I put quotations around it. You are right, I was not truly saved, I just assumed I was for the wrong reasons, and was not able to think for myself.

I was not saved, however I and everyone around me thought I was. In reality, I only accepted Christ because I had the fear of Hell drilled into me by my family.

Had I died at age 8, I believe God would have been just and let me get a "free-ride" so to speak, because I could not be held accountable at such a young age.

When one is truly saved, I believe it cannot be lost. Why would it be lost? If one is so faithful I hardly see how they could ever doubt or go against God. But your every day Christian may not be truly saved, but they may think that they are, like I did in the past.

If one is very unsure of God, yet remains faithful, I still believe that they are saved, even though they might have doubts.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: Stephen on August 05, 2013, 02:08:41 pm
From Craig's "Defenders" podcasts:

This question would be: what about a person who claims to have been a Christian – claims that he has tasted the Holy Spirit and known God – and then walks away from it and apostatizes and throws Christ out of his life? There are really two views about this. The one view is that he wasn’t really regenerate in the first place. He wasn’t really born again – he just had an emotional experience or went forward at an altar call, but he never really had that inner witness of the Holy Spirit. The other view would be that that person really was a regenerate Christian, he knew the Holy Spirit, but because of sin in his life he hardened his heart against the Holy Spirit and finally cast Jesus Christ out of his life and committed apostasy. This is what the author of the book of Hebrews warns about in chapters 6 and 10 – about those who have tasted the goodness of the Lord and the power of the Holy Spirit and the age to come, and then they commit apostasy. On that view they have lost their salvation. They have thrown Christ out of their life.

If you were to ask me what do I think – I tend to believe the latter. I think that if you take these warnings in Hebrews seriously, it suggests that a person, a born-again Christian, can commit apostasy and throw Christ out of his life and lose salvation. That is why I said earlier that the witness of the Holy Spirit isn’t indubitable, it is not irresistible, we can grieve the Holy Spirit through sin, we can quench the Holy Spirit by refusing to submit our lives to him, and, I think, ultimately, the Scripture teaches that you can cast the Holy Spirit out of your life by committing apostasy and renouncing Jesus Christ. The Scripture has very stern warnings about that. But again, I want to repeat, one’s views on the question of “eternal security” or “perseverance of the saints” doesn’t affect whether or not [belief in] the God of the Bible is properly basic. Whichever view you take, you can still maintain on the basis of the witness of the Holy Spirit that someone who has the witness of the Holy Spirit and attends to it can know with confidence that Christianity is true because the Holy Spirit gives him assurance that it is true.


Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defenders-2-podcast/transcript/s4-28#ixzz2b7hsyVrM (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defenders-2-podcast/transcript/s4-28#ixzz2b7hsyVrM)
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 05, 2013, 08:05:49 pm
Craig is wrong about Heb. 6 and 10. Someone who comes close to the door of salvation but doesn't enter in was never born-again to begin with. It would have been better they never knew Jesus similar to what is said in 2 Pet. 2.21. This interpretation reconciles with John 10.28 which says a person born-again "they shall never perish." Perhaps Craig blocks this passage out of his awareness.

Can a person be born-again, again, and again? I think that makes God look foolish if it were true that He doesn't have the foresight or power to know whom to give His life too (open theism). Plus, it violates initial salvation not by works lest anyone should boast. Craig boasts in his flesh to be able to remove it or keep it in his own strength.

A person who gives their life to Christ receives the Jesus who keeps, knowing and accepting we can't keep it ourselves. Otherwise, one is filled with the pride of life.

Grieving the Holy Spirit should not be construed as losing the Holy Spirit. That's over-assuming. The Holy Spirit still indwells the believer, but the believer is behaving carnally. As Paul said, there are both carnal and spiritual Christians which shall be rewarded. The Holy Spirit is irresistible only in the sense that He keeps His elect because this is Whom His elect gave their life to, that is, to be kept.

If you worship a false Christ of salvation by works, you wouldn't be saved. When you come before the Great White Throne you won't repent, and in the New City and New Earth there is no sin.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: Stephen on August 06, 2013, 08:05:09 am
A few issues then:

1) To whom then is Paul/the wuthor of Hebrews, addressing when warning of falling away?  It seems clear to me that he is addressing feloow believers, warning them not to fall away, and not those whom have already chosen to be outside of God's saving grace.

2) Taking in context, 2 Peter 2:20-21 says "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them (emphasis mine)."
It here again, seems clear to me Peter is dicussing those whom have truly known Christ and were accepting of his sacrifice for them, but subsequently denied him by submitting to the ways of the world.  So if anything, this seems to affirm Craig's case.

3) John 10:28 need not be problematic, for indeed those who are truly in Christ will not fall away; no powers can possibly interupt or revoke this gift of God upon one making the conscious choice to accept it.

4) If we have been given free will, why can we not always return to our Father's house, whereupon he will most certainly rejoice in our return (Prodigal Son)?  Are we only given one chance at repentance, given on this logic our mere sinning continually even under the care of salvation, makes God "look foolish?"  Should he not also have the power to direct stop or prevent us from doing so?  Why doesn't he then?

5) Why think choosing salvation over death is by work?  If God has given us free will, I see no issue here nor any compromise of God's sovereignty.  After all, God asks us as well commands us to do a great many things such to affect change, such as pray, repent, and do missionary work- why have us do these things if God already has selected before creation those whom will be saved?  Is our life then, just an elaborate farce?
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: Imperfect SBG on August 06, 2013, 09:36:48 am
John 3:36
 
'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.'

Matthew 7:21

'Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.'

2 John 1:6

'And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.'

Luke 10:27

'He answered: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind" ; and "love your neighbor as yourself."'

John 14:15

'If you love me, you will obey what I command.'

John 14:23-24

'Jesus replied, 'If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.'

2 John 5:2-3

'This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands...'


Salvation is a free gift, to be sure. Christ's sacrifice ensured our opportunity to seek life in heaven someday, and without His perfect sacrifice, there would be no hope for such a life with Him and the Father in heaven.

However, I believe the Word makes clear the fact that love is an action. 2 John 5:2-3 defines love as obeying God's commands. The adverse is true, I believe - to disobey His commands is to not love Him. ***NOTE*** - I am not saying every time you disobey the Lord you do not love Him. However, continuously disobeying with an unrepentant heart is a very dangerous place to be.

I guess the bottom line would be that if one were once 'saved', but did not obey God's commands, I would question the sincerity of one's salvation.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 06, 2013, 05:27:42 pm
A few issues then:

1) To whom then is Paul/the wuthor of Hebrews, addressing when warning of falling away?  It seems clear to me that he is addressing feloow believers, warning them not to fall away, and not those whom have already chosen to be outside of God's saving grace.
When someone backslides, falling away, they don't fall away all the way.

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2) Taking in context, 2 Peter 2:20-21 says "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them (emphasis mine)."
It here again, seems clear to me Peter is dicussing those whom have truly known Christ and were accepting of his sacrifice for them, but subsequently denied him by submitting to the ways of the world.  So if anything, this seems to affirm Craig's case.
Having this knowledge, coming to the door, yet not entering in to be saved is most problematic.

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3) John 10:28 need not be problematic, for indeed those who are truly in Christ will not fall away; no powers can possibly interupt or revoke this gift of God upon one making the conscious choice to accept it.
You have made it problematic because by your account those who you claim lose salvation in actuality were never saved to begin because they were never "truly in Christ" you said. The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). The choice to receive Christ to kept is a real free choice.

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4) If we have been given free will, why can we not always return to our Father's house, whereupon he will most certainly rejoice in our return (Prodigal Son)?  Are we only given one chance at repentance, given on this logic our mere sinning continually even under the care of salvation, makes God "look foolish?"  Should he not also have the power to direct stop or prevent us from doing so?  Why doesn't he then?
You have been given free will to accept the God who keeps and never lets His own fall away. You are given your whole life to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated; the question is if you have really done so to be kept from then on. God doesn't look foolish that man sins or is selfish after being saved because we are told to bear our cross daily. We have our whole life to overcometh, but what matters is we have the right starting point if truly once saved always saved. Those who don't, don't have that assurance. God never coerces your obedience.

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5) Why think choosing salvation over death is by work?  If God has given us free will, I see no issue here nor any compromise of God's sovereignty.  After all, God asks us as well commands us to do a great many things such to affect change, such as pray, repent, and do missionary work- why have us do these things if God already has selected before creation those whom will be saved?  Is our life then, just an elaborate farce?
Choosing salvation over death is not by work but in your own strength to keep it is by work to boast of. God's sovereignty to keep His elect always is truly great. God does not ask us to pray, repent and do missionary work to keep saved. That's the faith of other religions of the world. God selects before the foundation of the world, foreknowing our free choice, why then does it offend you that good works should follow the new birth? Life, indeed, would be an elaborate farce if you could engage in work to lose salvation when no work could satisfy God to receive eternal life.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 06, 2013, 05:42:09 pm
John 3:36
 
'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.'
Obey is accepting the gospel, not works.

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Matthew 7:21

'Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.'
This kingdom is the millennial kingdom reign to reign as kings and priests (Rev. 20.4-6) for overcomer believers. Non-overcomer believers don't receive this reward of Rev. 2.26,27.

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2 John 1:6

'And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.'
Good works follow the new birth by the work of the cross, consecration and power of the Spirit indwelling. A consequence of being a carnal Christian is not being first raptured or returning with Christ to reign during the millennial kingdom.

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Luke 10:27

'He answered: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind" ; and "love your neighbor as yourself."'
Amen. It does not say if you do not, you will go to Hell for a Christian already has eternal life. Just as you can be born physically only once, you can be born-again no more than once. You worship a false Christ otherwise.

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John 14:15

'If you love me, you will obey what I command.'
If you are in Christ the Holy Spirit will draw you to obey so don't resist.

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John 14:23-24

'Jesus replied, 'If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.'
There is a propensity for the saved to do God's will when before they could not.

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2 John 5:2-3

'This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands...'
Good works flow from the new birth, but the good works themselves don't give initial salvation, nor can they lose eternal life.

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Salvation is a free gift, to be sure. Christ's sacrifice ensured our opportunity to seek life in heaven someday, and without His perfect sacrifice, there would be no hope for such a life with Him and the Father in heaven.
This free gift of salvation is given to those who search God out with all their heart and soul. Sadly, many refuse His gift.

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However, I believe the Word makes clear the fact that love is an action. 2 John 5:2-3 defines love as obeying God's commands. The adverse is true, I believe - to disobey His commands is to not love Him. ***NOTE*** - I am not saying every time you disobey the Lord you do not love Him. However, continuously disobeying with an unrepentant heart is a very dangerous place to be.

The first command to obey, not a work, is to accept what Jesus did on the cross. The Bible draws the distinction between works and faith; they are not the same. Distinguish between accepting His love and a Christian who once saved can backslide and be unloving at times, not without consequence, though does not lose eternal life.

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I guess the bottom line would be that if one were once 'saved', but did not obey God's commands, I would question the sincerity of one's salvation.
You could not only question their salvation, but you should also consider they are saved, but are simply backsliding. The Bible allows for this - this is a constant warning throughout Scripture. And even discusses the consequence which are rewards, both the reward of being first raptured and the reward of returning with Christ to reign on earth 1000 years. Non-overcomer believers lose this reward. 1000 years is a long time to miss out on this blessing before the New City and New Earth commence.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: Stephen on August 06, 2013, 07:38:05 pm
What issue is backsliding then if it is nevertheless not possible to lose one's salvation?  I would grant that backsliding does not necessarily mean one falls all the way, but nor does that imply it not being still possible either, it seems to me.

Perhaps it is true as well that those who "lose salvation" never truly had it to begin with, but again, who are Paul and Peter addressing when warning of this potential to fall away?  For if those that are elect cannot possibly fall, aren't then these warnings, along with acts of prayer, witnessing, and repentance, all superfluous?

Are all people elected?  Has God opened the way for all to share in his eternal goodness?
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 06, 2013, 07:57:57 pm
What issue is backsliding then if it is nevertheless not possible to lose one's salvation?  I would grant that backsliding does not necessarily mean one falls all the way, but nor does that imply it not being still possible either, it seems to me.
Backsliding has consequences as was said loss of rewards. Go to John 10.28 to see someone who is born-again, that is, accepting Christ as Lord and Savior atoning for sins on the cross "they shall never perish". Therefore William Lane Craig has a false idea in his head that salvation is by works like all other religions but distinctly is not Christian.

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Perhaps it is true as well that those who "lose salvation" never truly had it to begin with, but again, who are Paul and Peter addressing when warning of this potential to fall away?  For if those that are elect cannot possibly fall, aren't then these warnings, along with acts of prayer, witnessing, and repentance, all superfluous?
That is entirely illogical and self-contradictory to say someone who was saved lost salvation but never truly had it to begin with. You are either saved or not saved. You cannot be both saved and never saved. Warnings to overcometh are unto rewards for believers, not to keep oneself from being unsaved. Salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast.

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Are all people elected?  Has God opened the way for all to share in his eternal goodness?
Not all people are elected. God elects those whom He foreknew their free choice to accept Him. God has opened the way for all to share in his eternal goodness if they accept His saving grace.

The implication of all this, of course, is many who believe they accept Christ of initial salvation by works are in actuality worshiping a false Christ.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: Stephen on August 06, 2013, 08:06:46 pm
Backsliding has consequences as was said loss of rewards. Go to John 10.28 to see someone who is born-again, that is, accepting Christ as Lord and Savior atoning for sins on the cross "they shall never perish". Therefore William Lane Craig has a false idea in his head that salvation is by works like all other religions but distinctly is not Christian.

Loss of what rewards?  I also fail to see how, if we have been sovereignly given free will, that acceptance of God's gift is in any way "salvation by works."  No one that believes this thinks salvation is possible without utter dependence upon God's good grace and mercy upon us.

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That is entirely illogical and self-contradictory to say someone who was saved lost salvation but never truly had it to begin with. You are either saved or not saved. You cannot be both saved and never saved. Warnings to overcometh are unto rewards for believers, not to keep oneself from being unsaved. Salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast.


Yes I understand that, as it was just a manner of speaking (note the quotes).  But you didn't address the real relevant questions there.

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Not all people are elected. God elects those whom He foreknew their free choice to accept Him. God has opened the way for all to share in his eternal goodness if they accept His saving grace.

Then I don't understand- what power does God's presumably subsequent act of election have, if those with free will have already accepted him and his grace?  What does it actually do under this scenario?
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 06, 2013, 08:23:58 pm
Loss of what rewards?  I also fail to see how, if we have been sovereignly given free will, that acceptance of God's gift is in any way "salvation by works."  No one that believes this thinks salvation is possible without utter dependence upon God's good grace and mercy upon us.
The loss of rewards such as reigning with Christ 1000 years as was already said. Freely choosing Christ is not works, for faith and works are contrasted; rather, it is in keeping oneself saved by their works which is the lie. No man has such strength or the ability to entirely depend on God so a man who claims he does is already deceived. No amount of dependence on God from one's self can keep oneself saved. What you can do to be saved is give your life to the Jesus who keeps and never lets go. Only then will you be born-again.

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Yes I understand that, as it was just a manner of speaking (note the quotes).  But you didn't address the real relevant questions there.
A 'manner of speaking' is not what you truly believe? How confusing. Satan is the author of confusion. So the problem remains you can't say a person was never really saved who was born-again otherwise being born-again is meaningless.

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Then I don't understand- what power does God's presumably subsequent act of election have, if those with free will have already accepted him and his grace?  What does it actually do under this scenario?
He has accepted those whom He foreknew, but they have not accepted Him until they have actually done so.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: False Entity on August 06, 2013, 10:41:13 pm
If God elected those that freely chose to follow him, then they are not elected. For there to be a select few that are elected, there cannot be salvation open to all.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 06, 2013, 10:46:11 pm
If God elected those that freely chose to follow him, then they are not elected. For there to be a select few that are elected, there cannot be salvation open to all.
They are elected because God foreknew their free choice that's why He elected them. Salvation is open to all, but sadly only a few accept Him to be elected.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: False Entity on August 06, 2013, 11:05:55 pm
So, did God elect us before we made the choice or afterwards?

There's a difference between God knowing something, and God acting upon something.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 06, 2013, 11:19:43 pm
So, did God elect us before we made the choice or afterwards?

There's a difference between God knowing something, and God acting upon something.
God being outside of time and space sees all things instantly so He sees all free choices and elects on that basis.

God acts to declare the elect because He foreknows who receives Him.

Pretty simple actually.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: Imperfect SBG on August 07, 2013, 06:26:12 am
James 2:14-25,

'14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?'

While not placing primary emphasis on works, it seems to me as if James is citing the importance of both faith and works in tandem.
Let us consider Judas Iscariot, a man who walked with Jesus, prayed with Jesus, fellowshipped with His people, presumably teaching and healing, performing miracles in the name of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 10:1

'Jesus called together his twelve disciples. He gave them the power to force out evil spirits and to heal every kind of disease and sickness...'

Was Judas Iscariot covered in salvation? After he betrayed Jesus and took his own life, was he still covered in salvation?


Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 07, 2013, 04:11:48 pm
James 2:14-25,

'14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Faith without works is dead, referring to it being ineffective or unproductive, but the person, nonetheless, is saved, for he has eternal life and believed in God's only begotten Son for forgiveness of sins and received eternal life.

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18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?'
Faith without works will be unrewarded, but faith with works will be rewarded. Sum it up by saying "faith was completed by his works" which does not say faith without works sends one to perdition. Faith is followed by works, not the other way around. Why was Abraham saved? Because he "believed God" not because he worked for it. A person is justified by faith for eternal life and would further be justified by his works unto rewards. Rahab was justified by her faith. Her works that followed flow from that faith. People misuse these Scriptures all the time, but James, obviously, is talking about works that flow from faith rather than receiving initial salvation or keeping oneself saved by works. What pride man has! No man has that power, for God is infinitely greater than us. Only God can keep His elect, and to be one of His elect you would need to accept this God and not the one you worship now which saves by works like Roman Catholics, Muslims, Hindus and Mormons teach.

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While not placing primary emphasis on works, it seems to me as if James is citing the importance of both faith and works in tandem.
Let us consider Judas Iscariot, a man who walked with Jesus, prayed with Jesus, fellowshipped with His people, presumably teaching and healing, performing miracles in the name of Jesus Christ.
The reason James doesn't place primary emphasis on works is because works can't save you. All it can do is reward you. Whereas faith, as contrasted from works, can save you, that is, give eternal life. Take Judas Iscariot who performed many works but was still not saved. It's because works cannot redeem you for forgiveness of sins to receive eternal life and be called a child of God.

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Matthew 10:1

'Jesus called together his twelve disciples. He gave them the power to force out evil spirits and to heal every kind of disease and sickness...'

Was Judas Iscariot covered in salvation? After he betrayed Jesus and took his own life, was he still covered in salvation?
Judas was never saved to begin with. Calling a disciple, the person must receive it by faith. Who can say the exact moment when the 11 Apostles were actually saved and given a new life. Was it after Jesus' first speech or 10th speech? (Salvation is not irresistibly imposed as taught by the heresy of Calvinism). Suicide is the surest way to Hell so Judas was not saved and never was, for salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast. Suicide is a work that flows from the evil spirit so Judas never had life. John 10.28 is clear those who were saved "they shall never perish". A false Christ will teach otherwise.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: Imperfect SBG on August 08, 2013, 06:48:16 am
Interesting...

Would you assert, then, that one who believes in Jesus is free to live a life of their own choosing, so long as they never stop believing in Him? That even though the demons believe in the name of the Lord, and they have faith in His promises - which for us leads to hope and salvation, and for them it is their greatest fear - they are covered in salvation for believing in Jesus?

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The first command to obey, not a work, is to accept what Jesus did on the cross.

I do not believe works are what saves you - only Jesus' sacrifice on the cross can do that.

All throughout Scripture, God demonstrates His love for us - I believe we are to follow His example.

James 1:22

'Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.'

4:17

'Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.'

As you already know, sin separates us from God. I agree the bible allows for backsliding, but there are numerous warnings against living blatant sin-filled lives.

Jesus' message to us when He walked the earth was "...'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.'"

What would be the fate of those who believed in Jesus but did not repent?
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 08, 2013, 12:04:45 pm
Interesting...

Would you assert, then, that one who believes in Jesus is free to live a life of their own choosing, so long as they never stop believing in Him? That even though the demons believe in the name of the Lord, and they have faith in His promises - which for us leads to hope and salvation, and for them it is their greatest fear - they are covered in salvation for believing in Jesus?
You are still speaking of a false Christ, a wrong Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible asserts a person who gives their life to Christ is giving their life to the God who keeps since we couldn't keep ourselves saved. Do you see the pride and self-aggrandizing (misplaced) nature of always having an out-clause. That is not truly entering into a relationship with Jesus. Demons have no access to the cross of salvation or any means by which to be saved. The reason a Christian is saved is because he came to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. Knowing Jesus is God and receiving what He did for us are two different things.

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I do not believe works are what saves you - only Jesus' sacrifice on the cross can do that.

All throughout Scripture, God demonstrates His love for us - I believe we are to follow His example.

James 1:22

'Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.'

4:17

'Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.'

As you already know, sin separates us from God. I agree the bible allows for backsliding, but there are numerous warnings against living blatant sin-filled lives.

Jesus' message to us when He walked the earth was "...'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.'"

What would be the fate of those who believed in Jesus but did not repent?
When you quote James 1.22 "Do what it says" to try to bolster your belief that if you don't do what it says after already being saved you can lose salvation, you are altering the meaning of this verse and are believing in the lie held by all other religions of salvation by works which is what you boast of. James 1.22, rather, is affirming to believers who already have eternal life to walk therein and that there are consequences. The consequence, of course, is not loss of life, but loss of rewards.

Every believer who has ever lived has subsequently sinned and been selfish even though they were saved. They don't go to Hell because they sinned though they do lose rewards if they have not repented of specific sins. Living blatant sin-filled lives has one of two possibilities: either the person was never saved to begin with or is a very carnal Christian. Understand though a Christian will not sin so much that he becomes a mass murderer or is a great fornicator that sort of thing. The Holy Spirit will restrain a believer from much.

You asked what would be the fate of those who believed in Jesus but did not repent? If you don't repent to the cross to receive what Jesus did then you were never saved to begin with. Realize you are not born-again because you worship a false Christ, a different Jesus, one who does not teach John 10.28 that those who are saved "they shall never perish." I am saved and have the assurance nothing can separate me from God not even my flesh for it has died on the cross with Christ, and my spirit has been permanently quickened with His life. You don't have this gift. You boast in your own strength which is the epitome of someone going to Hell.

Please don't be offended by the fact that I know this about you, but give your life to the Jesus I am telling you about in the word of God. I implore you!
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: Imperfect SBG on August 08, 2013, 01:31:54 pm
I am curious what you are referring to as 'loss of rewards' for those with unrepentant sin.

To what rewards do you refer?

I appreciate your passion - it fires me up to read what you type! Your comments have driven me to seek the wisdom of God through prayer and His Word.

Yet please do not place words in my mouth - I have only stressed the importance of acting on our faith, not just saying we believe then doing nothing to advance the kingdom of God. Though I have no need of justifying myself to you, I will assure you I have not once claimed works alone can save anyone. Reread my comments - you will not find that statement anywhere. Again, please do not put words in mouth.

I do not believe works bring about salvation. I believe salvation leads to doing .

I would say I agree with you in this - if someone claims to have faith in their own salvation, yet does nothing in response to that salvation, I would question if they were ever really saved to begin with.


Hear me in this as well: I boast not of my own strength. I do not believe my deeds have any merit in and of themselves - the only merit they possess is that they would glorify God and point others to Him.

I cannot think of any examples of men or women throughout the Word who accepted Jesus and did nothing in response to that acceptance - again, I am not saying that what they did do in response to their salvation saved them, only that their salvation caused them to act - because of their salvation, they became doers of the Word.

And no, I am not offended by what you think you know about me.

You are bold in your words - I pray you continue to be bold for the sake of Jesus!




Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 08, 2013, 02:18:33 pm
I am curious what you are referring to as 'loss of rewards' for those with unrepentant sin.

To what rewards do you refer?
For example, "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father" (Rev. 2.26,27).

Not all Christians, therefore, receive this reward as you know Paul said, there are both carnal and spiritual Christians. Still both Christian. Still both saved. But only overcomers receive the reward of reigning over the nations for 1000 years as kings and priests (Rev. 20.4,5b,6), before the New City and New Earth commence.

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I appreciate your passion - it fires me up to read what you type! Your comments have driven me to seek the wisdom of God through prayer and His Word.

Yet please do not place words in my mouth - I have only stressed the importance of acting on our faith, not just saying we believe then doing nothing to advance the kingdom of God. Though I have no need of justifying myself to you, I will assure you I have not once claimed works alone can save anyone. Reread my comments - you will not find that statement anywhere. Again, please do not put words in mouth.
I have not judged you for "just saying [you] believe then doing nothing to advance the kingdom of God" nor have I accused you of claiming "works alone can save anyone" so don't put words in my mouth. Don't be like Satan that great false accuser. What I have said is that you rely on salvation by works to keep yourself allegedly saved which of course is a lie and the faith of most other religions of the world. Christianity, however, is distinct in contrasting initial salvation by faith not by works lest anyone should boast. In all honesty I feel like I am talking to a zombie. The truth is I am talking to someone whose spirit is dead to God that's why you come across to me this way. No amount of convincing will convince you. What you need to do is search God out with all your heart and soul only then will you find the God who when He intelligently saves in His infinite foreknowledge saves one time and lets no man puck the saved out of His hand so that "they shall never perish." You say they can perish. God says they can't. You worship a false Christ. Repent and give your life to the One True God Christ Jesus. Just as you are born physically once only, you can only be born of God once, not twice, not three times or more. This takes humility to accept before God will save you.

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I do not believe works bring about salvation. I believe salvation leads to doing .

I would say I agree with you in this - if someone claims to have faith in their own salvation, yet does nothing in response to that salvation, I would question if they were ever really saved to begin with.
I have never accused you of "believing works bring about salvation" so why go down that line of argument? Nor have I accused you of believing salvation does not "lead to doing." You are so confused! When you claim you can keep yourself saved and possibly lose salvation, it shows you don't know Jesus but worship a false Christ. A person who thinks he can lose salvation was never saved to begin with. It's easy to see for one who has life.

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Hear me in this as well: I boast not of my own strength. I do not believe my deeds have any merit in and of themselves - the only merit they possess is that they would glorify God and point others to Him.
You can say you don't boast of your own strength, but the reality is that you do, for you claim you are saved and yet can lose salvation when the Bible says a person who is saved can never lose it.

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I cannot think of any examples of men or women throughout the Word who accepted Jesus and did nothing in response to that acceptance - again, I am not saying that what they did do in response to their salvation saved them, only that their salvation caused them to act - because of their salvation, they became doers of the Word.

And no, I am not offended by what you think you know about me.

You are bold in your words - I pray you continue to be bold for the sake of Jesus!
Our discussion is not about whether someone does no good acts once saved, but those acts and a change of mind can lead one to be unsaved after being saved. Someone who is truly saved would never change his mind or in his strength deny the salvation received. Even if someone were saved and being unfaithful, God is faithful to keep His elect.

Your god is unable to do this so God of the Bible trumps your god every time.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: Imperfect SBG on August 08, 2013, 02:29:31 pm
What have I said to lead you to assume that I believe works are what keep me saved?
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 08, 2013, 02:46:38 pm
What have I said to lead you to assume that I believe works are what keep me saved?
There is no assuming by me recognizing you said, consistent with the rest of your comments, "Let us consider Judas Iscariot, a man who walked with Jesus, prayed with Jesus, fellowshipped with His people, presumably teaching and healing, performing miracles in the name of Jesus Christ."

You are clearing saying Judas was saved then was not. Such is impossible though.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: Imperfect SBG on August 09, 2013, 09:18:36 am
faithfulserver - I want to thank you again for helping me to grow in my knowledge of the Word!

2 Timothy 3:16

'All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness...'

I took part in this discussion to further my own understanding of the Word, and to maybe have a positive impact on someone else's understanding of the Word as well, in accordance with this passage.

I have sought out much in the Bible because of this conversation, and for that I am grateful - meditating on the Word daily has a great impact on our daily lives!

I came across Galatians 3 - I believe this chapter, especially the first few verses, is very useful in this conversation.

Praise God that when we ask for wisdom He is faithful to provide!

Salvation comes by faith in Jesus the Christ - 'For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works...' Ephesians 2: 8-10

We are not saved by anything we do, or by our own power - we are saved by God's grace!

I pray we would never forget from whom our salvation came; I pray, too, that we would be doers of the Word, and not just hearers.


May God bless you all.


Side note: faithfulserver, you have raised a curiosity for me, that is, the salvation of the 12. When were they saved? 

Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 09, 2013, 02:57:19 pm
Salvation comes by faith in Jesus the Christ - 'For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works...' Ephesians 2: 8-10

We are not saved by anything we do, or by our own power - we are saved by God's grace!

Side note: faithfulserver, you have raised a curiosity for me, that is, the salvation of the 12. When were they saved?
Only 11 were saved. Judas never gave his life to Christ.

If you believe you are saved and that you can lose salvation, I can confidently say you have never been saved.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: faithfulserver on August 29, 2013, 10:23:44 pm
That would be a weird kind of salvation if you get saved (born-again) as a child of God then unborn then born-again again, then unborn again, etc. What kind of God is that? Not the God of the Bible.

Whereas my God saves once for always in His infinite foreknowledge whom to give His life to.

William Craig doesn't know this God. That much is clear.

Let's worship the God we give our lives to who keeps since we don't have the strength to keep ourselves saved except William Lane Craig does. Pride begets the fall.
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: JohnnyZ on March 08, 2020, 02:57:05 pm
The Bible teaches that God elected individuals to salvation based on nothing other than His sovereign decision (Romans 9:15-16, Ephesians 2:8-9). A person is not saved by his works. That's a gospel that cannot save.

Someone who is truly saved cannot lose his salvation because God, and God only, is in charge of salvation. Read John 6:37 and 6:44 (and many other verses). And, by nature, no person wants God's salvation plan. Everyone tries to work their way into Heaven unless and until God truly saves them, at which point the person becomes born again and rests in Christ (stops working for their salvation; Hebrews 4:10).
Title: Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
Post by: jayceeii on March 11, 2020, 08:00:42 am
The Bible teaches that God elected individuals to salvation based on nothing other than His sovereign decision (Romans 9:15-16, Ephesians 2:8-9). A person is not saved by his works. That's a gospel that cannot save.

Someone who is truly saved cannot lose his salvation because God, and God only, is in charge of salvation. Read John 6:37 and 6:44 (and many other verses). And, by nature, no person wants God's salvation plan. Everyone tries to work their way into Heaven unless and until God truly saves them, at which point the person becomes born again and rests in Christ (stops working for their salvation; Hebrews 4:10).
This is indeed the “magic formula” that has driven the Christian religion for 2000 years, and many the humans who have found a surface repentance through this formula, though none the humans who have found a deep repentance. It’s basically a formula for falling asleep, after the Buddha insisted it was man’s role to awaken. The Christians cannot be unseated, because their minds are closed and self-centered, beyond the reach of rational argumentation. Jesus asked the shepherds to help Him, and the corral they built is sturdy.

Nonetheless this grand façade is full of awful cracks, and must tumble eventually with a maturing race. The first crack I’d emphasize here, is that the “born again” experience is extremely ill-defined, with no one checking to be sure God (perhaps as Jesus) will agree that the experience has been genuine. If a man thinks he has been born again, but God says he has not been born again, then the man is not fit for Heaven as he vainly imagines. Christians make no attempt to bring Heaven to Earth, admitting they don’t want Heaven.

The second crack I’d emphasize is that there is no possibility of disentangling this formula from a cavalier and destructive attitude to the globe, regarding the planet as disposable, sure that God has something better. If Earth is God’s best thing Christians are disappointed, and not interested in God or Heaven any more. Minds that accept this formula unquestioningly have a cartoonish view of the world, ignoring its resource limitations. They’d destroy Heaven, or any planet, never satisfied whatever they’re given.

The hypothesis Christians would be happy in Heaven is disproved because they are not happy on Earth. The reasons they list for dissatisfaction amount to little more than whining, since it is a splendid globe with magnificent bodies. True citizens of Heaven would already be trying to make Earth a heavenly place. The society could have been arranged as Christians muse would give them satisfaction, with all things at their disposal without needing money. They don’t arrange it this way, to keep an edge on the neighbor.

In short, the Bible has been an excuse for man to simply follow his instincts while ignoring consequences to the planet God made and sustains, opposing the power of the Creator with an almost equally matched destructive power. It will eventually be called infernal, by those who wish to preserve the Earth. Human civilization has been like a high speed commuter train, and God hasn’t stood in the way of human self-will in the religions. Highly displeasing to God, men build their house on the sand of false promises.