Reasonable Faith Forums

Archived => Craig vs Rosenberg => Topic started by: rjonesx on March 22, 2014, 02:49:48 pm

Title: Principle of Sufficient Reason and Quantum Events
Post by: rjonesx on March 22, 2014, 02:49:48 pm
After hearing Rosenberg's statements about alpha decay, it got me thinking about the PSR and whether there are any examples in nature of something seeming to violate the PSR or, if not, if I could imagine something in nature that could violate the PSR.

Rosenberg seemed to indicate that the randomness of the alpha decay was responsible for removing the sufficient reason.

I am a programmer for a good part of the work day, and it occurred to me that Rosenberg seemed to suggest this...

Let's say I have a simple program that looks like this...

echo "Hello World";

Here, I have a program that every time it is run, it prints Hello World. There is a sufficient reason for this occurring. However, let's say I add a little bit of code around it...

if(rand(0,1)==1) {
   echo "Hello World";
}

Voila! I have defeated the PSR. Because a random function (select a random number either 0 or 1 and if it equals 1 then echo "Hello World") dictates the outcome of the script, it no longer has a PSR.

It seems to me that I have a perfectly sufficient reason for the behavior of my program, in fact I can give you the exact design of that program and explain how and why it behaves apparently erratically. Does that not suffice? Is no the same true of alpha decay, or quantum events, or nearly anything in science that is driven in some part by a probability function?

It seems to me that as long as there are necessary conditions under which the event occurs, we have sufficient reason to believe there is an explanation for the event.



Title: Re: Principle of Sufficient Reason and Quantum Events
Post by: rjonesx on March 22, 2014, 08:02:26 pm
Having given more thought to this, it is even more weird. Rosenberg seems to be proposing a Naturalism of the Gaps example. He seems to be presupposing that because science has discovered uncaused things (which it may or may not have), that those uncaused things are physical and naturalistic. It seems to be an awkward twisting to say that because science can't explain something... science!

Title: Re: Principle of Sufficient Reason and Quantum Events
Post by: Irrational on March 23, 2014, 02:03:12 am
The code example is a terrible. It's an example of pseudorandom (a seed is set up at first), not true random.
Title: Re: Principle of Sufficient Reason and Quantum Events
Post by: rjonesx on March 23, 2014, 07:49:00 pm
I am not quite sure why that matters. Let's say that it was truly random and unseeded. It still has a necessary foundation (the code) that must exist in order for the event to occur. Similarly, in quantum mechanics, the laws, vacuum state, etc. are a necessary foundation upon which a probability distribution is laid. Does the interceding layer of randomness take away the sufficient reason is the question I am asking.
Title: Re: Principle of Sufficient Reason and Quantum Events
Post by: angilerna on September 13, 2014, 07:15:16 am
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Title: Re: Principle of Sufficient Reason and Quantum Events
Post by: lfzadra on March 13, 2015, 11:14:37 pm
He seems to be presupposing that because science has discovered uncaused things (which it may or may not have), that those uncaused things are physical and naturalistic.

False. What he is presupposing is that because science has discovered uncaused things, then science has discovered uncaused things. In this case, any reasoning beginning with attempts like "things can't be uncaused" are immediately invalidated. Things CAN occur uncaused and we have the scientific data to prove it.
Title: Re: Principle of Sufficient Reason and Quantum Events
Post by: ParaclitosLogos on March 14, 2015, 05:40:42 am
He seems to be presupposing that because science has discovered uncaused things (which it may or may not have), that those uncaused things are physical and naturalistic.

False. What he is presupposing is that because science has discovered uncaused things, then science has discovered uncaused things. In this case, any reasoning beginning with attempts like "things can't be uncaused" are immediately invalidated. Things CAN occur uncaused and we have the scientific data to prove it.

Please provide the data, that something can come into existence witout a cause.