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General Discussion => Politics => Topic started by: Fred on February 15, 2020, 09:47:29 am

Title: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Fred on February 15, 2020, 09:47:29 am
Rush Limbaugh was in the news this week for suggesting America isn't ready for a "gay man kising his husband" as President.  I pondered this from my politically liberal, atheist point of view - and it seems to me that this would imply there is still too much anti-gay prejudice in this country - because homosexuality has no bearing on the intellignce, knowledge, or judgment of that man. 

That said, I''m curious of the perspective of evangelicals.  Could you vote for a gay man based on his merits (assume you agree with his policy views and consider him intellectually adequate) and ignore the fact that he's gay - and in a gay marriage? 

If you're tempted to say no, because he's actively sinning and showcasing this sinful lifestyle, consider Trump.
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: TheCross on February 15, 2020, 06:17:12 pm
Rush Limbaugh was in the news this week for suggesting America isn't ready for a "gay man kising his husband" as President.  I pondered this from my politically liberal, atheist point of view - and it seems to me that this would imply there is still too much anti-gay prejudice in this country - because homosexuality has no bearing on the intellignce, knowledge, or judgment of that man. 

That said, I''m curious of the perspective of evangelicals.  Could you vote for a gay man based on his merits (assume you agree with his policy views and consider him intellectually adequate) and ignore the fact that he's gay - and in a gay marriage? 

If you're tempted to say no, because he's actively sinning and showcasing this sinful lifestyle, consider Trump.

Really? I agree that knowledge or intelligence has no bearing upon ones sexuality, but the judgement does.
If you are a homosexually active individual, that is married then your judgement is already not inline with X % of the population, in your case a theistic overwhelming majority, so essentially, your judgement is made.

And please, let’s be abit honest, by being pro-gay, the political shift leans heavily to the left side of the isle, does it not?
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: lapwing on February 17, 2020, 05:59:27 pm
I'm no expert but I would expect quite a few extreme right people in the US are gay.

Which is worse a pussy grabbing lying multiple fornicator (maybe not proved but the question is still valid) or someone in a monogamous homosexual marriage?
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: TheCross on February 18, 2020, 05:48:17 am
I'm no expert but I would expect quite a few extreme right people in the US are gay.

Which is worse a pussy grabbing lying multiple fornicator (maybe not proved but the question is still valid) or someone in a monogamous homosexual marriage?

The latter is worse, while the former is also very bad, fornication is such an old concept that the bible strictly adresses it, meanwhile the latter alters the biblical narrative altogether, confusing and letting ignorant people even further into their mental and sinful chaos by lying to the masses that ”this is ok, it is approved by the bible, god, or X” when it is not approved by anyone apart from the radical progressives.

Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: lapwing on February 18, 2020, 02:23:59 pm
Where does the Bible say that homosexuality is worse than fornication, or lying for that matter?
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: TheCross on February 18, 2020, 07:35:46 pm
Where does the Bible say that homosexuality is worse than fornication, or lying for that matter?

By introducing a word only used when speaking of homosexual activity.

But, thats not what I said now is it?
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: lapwing on February 19, 2020, 04:17:17 am
Your words:
"The latter is worse, while the former is also very bad"

Latter is homosexuality (the sex act)
Former is fornication

Isn't fornication "a word only used when speaking of" heterosexual sex outside of marriage?
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: TheCross on February 19, 2020, 06:14:35 am
Your words:
"The latter is worse, while the former is also very bad"

Latter is homosexuality (the sex act)
Former is fornication

Isn't fornication "a word only used when speaking of" heterosexual sex outside of marriage?

Yes? I’m confused at what your point is, elaborate.
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Mammal on February 19, 2020, 12:27:24 pm
I pondered this from my politically liberal, atheist point of view - and it seems to me that this would imply there is still too much anti-gay prejudice in this country - because homosexuality has no bearing on the intellignce, knowledge, or judgment of that man. 

..Could you vote for a gay man based on his merits (assume you agree with his policy views and consider him intellectually adequate) and ignore the fact that he's gay - and in a gay marriage? 

..consider Trump.
He is doing quite well so far and that seems to point to a yearning for a Trump antithesis..? That being said, apparently not so popular among black voters so I am wondering if it will last.
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: lapwing on February 22, 2020, 05:49:47 am
Your words:
"The latter is worse, while the former is also very bad"

Latter is homosexuality (the sex act)
Former is fornication

Isn't fornication "a word only used when speaking of" heterosexual sex outside of marriage?

Yes? I’m confused at what your point is, elaborate.

You seem to be contradicting (or rowing back from) what you said earlier?

Do you think homosexuality (the sex act) is worse (according to the Bible) than fornication or lying?
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: TheCross on February 22, 2020, 02:22:01 pm
Your words:
"The latter is worse, while the former is also very bad"

Latter is homosexuality (the sex act)
Former is fornication

Isn't fornication "a word only used when speaking of" heterosexual sex outside of marriage?

Yes? I’m confused at what your point is, elaborate.

You seem to be contradicting (or rowing back from) what you said earlier?

Do you think homosexuality (the sex act) is worse (according to the Bible) than fornication or lying?

Yes, the language is much more severe, or is there a verse on fornication that also claims such an act is an abomination?

Do you belive sins are equal?
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: lapwing on February 23, 2020, 05:49:49 am
 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.  Jude 1:7

 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.  Col 3:5

So are you arguing the homosexuals will be put in a hotter part of the eternal fire? It doesn't say so here.
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: TheCross on February 24, 2020, 05:31:57 am
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.  Jude 1:7

 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.  Col 3:5

So are you arguing the homosexuals will be put in a hotter part of the eternal fire? It doesn't say so here.

?

I mean, at some point you REALLY NEED TO START READING WHAT I SAY.

”The latter is worse, while the former is also very bad, fornication is such an old concept that the bible strictly adresses it, meanwhile the latter alters the biblical narrative altogether, confusing and letting ignorant people even further into their mental and sinful chaos by lying to the masses that ”this is ok, it is approved by the bible, god, or X” when it is not approved by anyone apart from the radical progressives.”

Understand? I did not say that hell has multiple layers, or anything close to it, I said that people pushing the gay agenda are doing something much worse than mere fornication, which is altering the biblical message.
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: lapwing on February 25, 2020, 08:14:51 pm
The OP says "gay man" not "gay man pushing the gay agenda" - and again where do you get "pushing the gay agenda" (whatever that means in this case) is a worse sin than fornication (and lying) IN THE BIBLE (I can use capitals as well)?

"Alters the biblical narrative altogether" - really.
Maybe you could justify that - does the Bible have some sections in capitals then?
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: bskeptic on March 02, 2020, 03:31:25 pm
Trump could come out as gay. No problem.

Evangelicals would forgive him for it.

The liberals would despise him for it.
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Maxximiliann on March 05, 2020, 09:49:32 am
Rush Limbaugh was in the news this week for suggesting America isn't ready for a "gay man kising his husband" as President.  I pondered this from my politically liberal, atheist point of view - and it seems to me that this would imply there is still too much anti-gay prejudice in this country - because homosexuality has no bearing on the intellignce, knowledge, or judgment of that man. 

That said, I''m curious of the perspective of evangelicals.  Could you vote for a gay man based on his merits (assume you agree with his policy views and consider him intellectually adequate) and ignore the fact that he's gay - and in a gay marriage? 

If you're tempted to say no, because he's actively sinning and showcasing this sinful lifestyle, consider Trump.

First, loyal followers of Jesus Christ are obligated before God to be wholly devoted to him and his Kingdom, the Theocracy. Their prayers should be for God’s Kingdom, not for the USA, Israel or any other nation. (Matt. 6:10, 33)

In light of what Jesus Christ disclosed as to the identity of the invisible ruler of the world (John 12:31; 14:30) how could a person who is devoted to God’s Kingdom favor one side or the other in a conflict between factions of the world? Had not Jesus said of his followers: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world”? (John 17:16)

The neutrality of the early Christians in relation to the political and military affairs of the world is an established fact of history. It was in harmony with Jesus’ refusal to be made king by the crowds (John 6:15) and with his statement to Pilate that his kingdom was no part of the world. (John 18:36)

Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., in his "Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew" (CX): "We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons, - our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage." (The Ante-Nicene Father, Vol. I. p. 254)

Finally, Christ Jesus  taught, "ἔσωθεν γὰρ ἐκ τῆς καρδίας τῶν ἀνθρώπων οἱ διαλογισμοὶ οἱ κακοὶ ἐκπορεύονται, πορνεῖαι . . .  πάντα. ταῦτα τὰ πονηρὰ ἔσωθεν ἐκπορεύεται καὶ κοινοῖ τὸν ἄνθρωπον."-Mark 7:21,23 As such, Christians reject all forms of πορνεία, homosexuality included. This being the case, how can anyone professing to abide by Christ's lofty moral standards condone or even advocate for any sexually immoral lifestyles?
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Fred on March 05, 2020, 02:35:49 pm
Rush Limbaugh was in the news this week for suggesting America isn't ready for a "gay man kising his husband" as President.  I pondered this from my politically liberal, atheist point of view - and it seems to me that this would imply there is still too much anti-gay prejudice in this country - because homosexuality has no bearing on the intellignce, knowledge, or judgment of that man. 

That said, I''m curious of the perspective of evangelicals.  Could you vote for a gay man based on his merits (assume you agree with his policy views and consider him intellectually adequate) and ignore the fact that he's gay - and in a gay marriage? 

If you're tempted to say no, because he's actively sinning and showcasing this sinful lifestyle, consider Trump.

First, loyal followers of Jesus Christ are obligated before God to be wholly devoted to him and his Kingdom, the Theocracy. Their prayers should be for God’s Kingdom, not for the USA, Israel or any other nation. (Matt. 6:10, 33)

In light of what Jesus Christ disclosed as to the identity of the invisible ruler of the world (John 12:31; 14:30) how could a person who is devoted to God’s Kingdom favor one side or the other in a conflict between factions of the world? Had not Jesus said of his followers: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world”? (John 17:16)

The neutrality of the early Christians in relation to the political and military affairs of the world is an established fact of history. It was in harmony with Jesus’ refusal to be made king by the crowds (John 6:15) and with his statement to Pilate that his kingdom was no part of the world. (John 18:36)

Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., in his "Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew" (CX): "We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons, - our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage." (The Ante-Nicene Father, Vol. I. p. 254)

Finally, Christ Jesus  taught, "ἔσωθεν γὰρ ἐκ τῆς καρδίας τῶν ἀνθρώπων οἱ διαλογισμοὶ οἱ κακοὶ ἐκπορεύονται, πορνεῖαι . . .  πάντα. ταῦτα τὰ πονηρὰ ἔσωθεν ἐκπορεύεται καὶ κοινοῖ τὸν ἄνθρωπον."-Mark 7:21,23 As such, Christians reject all forms of πορνεία, homosexuality included. This being the case, how can anyone professing to abide by Christ's lofty moral standards condone or even advocate for any sexually immoral lifestyles?
It sounds like you would consider a vote for a gay man for President  to be condoning homosexual behavior.

That suggests you would be condoning Trump's behavior if you vote for him.  For example, he has cheated on every wife he's ever had, and he habitually objectifies women. Why condone that?
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Fred on March 05, 2020, 02:44:33 pm
Trump could come out as gay. No problem.

Evangelicals would forgive him for it.

The liberals would despise him for it.
I agree with your point, but not with this example. Liberals tend to support gay rights.  Still, we all tend to feel outrage at the characteristics of the person we oppose.  Thoughtful people will try and develop a principle that they apply to the future. So, for example, evangelicals who accept Trump's behavior should refrain from criticizing analogous behavior in liberal politicians.  Liberals who are outraged by Trump's behavior should be equally unaccepting of such behavior in a liberal.
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Maxximiliann on March 06, 2020, 12:37:38 pm
Rush Limbaugh was in the news this week for suggesting America isn't ready for a "gay man kising his husband" as President.  I pondered this from my politically liberal, atheist point of view - and it seems to me that this would imply there is still too much anti-gay prejudice in this country - because homosexuality has no bearing on the intellignce, knowledge, or judgment of that man. 

That said, I''m curious of the perspective of evangelicals.  Could you vote for a gay man based on his merits (assume you agree with his policy views and consider him intellectually adequate) and ignore the fact that he's gay - and in a gay marriage? 

If you're tempted to say no, because he's actively sinning and showcasing this sinful lifestyle, consider Trump.

First, loyal followers of Jesus Christ are obligated before God to be wholly devoted to him and his Kingdom, the Theocracy. Their prayers should be for God’s Kingdom, not for the USA, Israel or any other nation. (Matt. 6:10, 33)

In light of what Jesus Christ disclosed as to the identity of the invisible ruler of the world (John 12:31; 14:30) how could a person who is devoted to God’s Kingdom favor one side or the other in a conflict between factions of the world? Had not Jesus said of his followers: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world”? (John 17:16)

The neutrality of the early Christians in relation to the political and military affairs of the world is an established fact of history. It was in harmony with Jesus’ refusal to be made king by the crowds (John 6:15) and with his statement to Pilate that his kingdom was no part of the world. (John 18:36)

Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., in his "Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew" (CX): "We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons, - our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage." (The Ante-Nicene Father, Vol. I. p. 254)

Finally, Christ Jesus  taught, "ἔσωθεν γὰρ ἐκ τῆς καρδίας τῶν ἀνθρώπων οἱ διαλογισμοὶ οἱ κακοὶ ἐκπορεύονται, πορνεῖαι . . .  πάντα. ταῦτα τὰ πονηρὰ ἔσωθεν ἐκπορεύεται καὶ κοινοῖ τὸν ἄνθρωπον."-Mark 7:21,23 As such, Christians reject all forms of πορνεία, homosexuality included. This being the case, how can anyone professing to abide by Christ's lofty moral standards condone or even advocate for any sexually immoral lifestyles?
It sounds like you would consider a vote for a gay man for President  to be condoning homosexual behavior.

That suggests you would be condoning Trump's behavior if you vote for him.  For example, he has cheated on every wife he's ever had, and he habitually objectifies women. Why condone that?

It appears you missed the thrust of my rejoinder. Christians don't vote. Like Christ Jesus, our model, we are 'not part of the world just as he was no part of the world' especially since "friendship with the world is enmity with God." (James 4:4; John 17:16)
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Fred on March 06, 2020, 03:49:29 pm

It appears you missed the thrust of my rejoinder. Christians don't vote. Like Christ Jesus, our model, we are 'not part of the world just as he was no part of the world' especially since "friendship with the world is enmity with God." (James 4:4; John 17:16)
.
My Op was directed at that group of people who label themselves "evangelical Christians" and vote (or at least consider voting), regardless of whether or not they fit your particular definition of  "Christian".

As an aside, it's kinda interesting that you apply the term "Christian" so narrowly, particular since Harvey doesn't consider YOU a Christian. 
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Maxximiliann on March 09, 2020, 04:39:55 am

It appears you missed the thrust of my rejoinder. Christians don't vote. Like Christ Jesus, our model, we are 'not part of the world just as he was no part of the world' especially since "friendship with the world is enmity with God." (James 4:4; John 17:16)
.
it's kinda interesting that you apply the term "Christian" so narrowly, particular since Harvey doesn't consider YOU a Christian. 

With the code of conduct he supplied his loyal ones, Christ drew a bright line and then announced that absolutely everyone on the other side is not a Christian.  So wholly devoted to this code would these be that all non-Christian world-views/conduct would be effortlessly recognized.  (Malachi 3:18 cf.  Titus 1:16)

These preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.

Meaning that, just as we are able to distinguish genuine legal tender apart from Monopoly money, any sincere person can make a distinction between a Christian and an Anti-Christian (Satanist).



Harvey is no arbiter of who is a Christian or not.  So if those of any Christian sect, like Harvey himself, are sedulous disciples of Christ then Muhammad was Jewish .  .  . 
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Fred on March 09, 2020, 09:39:21 pm
Harvey is no arbiter of who is a Christian or not. 
Agreed, but neither are you.  As far as I'm concerned, anyone who calls himself a Christian IS a Christian.  It's just a label  and it doesn't have to mean the same thing to everyone.  If you want to understand what someone believes, ask them.
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: TheCross on March 10, 2020, 06:45:46 am
Harvey is no arbiter of who is a Christian or not. 
Agreed, but neither are you.  As far as I'm concerned, anyone who calls himself a Christian IS a Christian.  It's just a label  and it doesn't have to mean the same thing to everyone.  If you want to understand what someone believes, ask them.

Being a label entails that you adhere to specific points that manifest into that said label.
Everyone can claim to be anything if all that it takes is to belive the claim, it’s not a healthy and sound way of looking at things.
It also introduces really wierd concepts, in this case, as christians follow christ, it would mean that a practicing homosexual for example has put his authority above the one which he or she claims to be the authority.
If you find this approach to be reasonable, then so be it, but it is in no way coherent.
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Maxximiliann on March 11, 2020, 02:51:41 am
Harvey is no arbiter of who is a Christian or not. 
Agreed, but neither are you.  As far as I'm concerned, anyone who calls himself a Christian IS a Christian.  It's just a label  and it doesn't have to mean the same thing to everyone.  If you want to understand what someone believes, ask them.

And actions prove why words mean nothing:

Quote
"You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshipping me.’”" -Matthew 15:7-9 (Emphasis mine)

"“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will." -Matthew 7:21 (Emphasis mine)
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: bdsimon on March 11, 2020, 09:14:46 am
Trump could come out as gay. No problem.

Evangelicals would forgive him for it.

The liberals would despise him for it.
This is an underrated comment. In fact, I would say it is a great comment. Everyone says so.
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Fred on March 15, 2020, 10:29:48 am

Being a label entails that you adhere to specific points that manifest into that said label.
OK. In the future, I'll apply Max's points to decide whether or not someone is really a Christian.  So tell me, do you vote?  I need to know this, because Max says Christians don't vote. 
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Maxximiliann on March 16, 2020, 10:50:49 am

Being a label entails that you adhere to specific points that manifest into that said label.
OK. In the future, I'll apply Max's points to decide whether or not someone is really a Christian.  So tell me, do you vote?  I need to know this, because Max says Christians don't vote. 

It appears you missed the thrust of my rejoinder so I'll reiterate. With the code of conduct he supplied his loyal ones, Christ drew a bright line and then announced that absolutely everyone on the other side is not a Christian.  So wholly devoted to this code would these be that all non-Christian world-views/conduct would be effortlessly recognized.  (Malachi 3:18 cf.  Titus 1:16)

That is the benchmark by which all who claim to be Christian need to be measured up against, not what I've said or not said. After all, was I Christianity's founder?
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: TheCross on March 18, 2020, 07:59:04 am

Being a label entails that you adhere to specific points that manifest into that said label.
OK. In the future, I'll apply Max's points to decide whether or not someone is really a Christian.  So tell me, do you vote?  I need to know this, because Max says Christians don't vote.

I have not. Not because I belive it’s right or wrong to vote, I just noticed that it really does not matter what party gains power, as the party system is so corrupt that no change will be able to manifest, this is why I was hoping Trump would go as an independent runner, but he chose to go red.
In any event, I do not agree with Max that christians should ignore everything ungodly in the world, the lord himself tells us to adapt to both in his ”render unto cesear...” he does not say ignore cesear.
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Maxximiliann on March 18, 2020, 09:13:41 am

Being a label entails that you adhere to specific points that manifest into that said label.
OK. In the future, I'll apply Max's points to decide whether or not someone is really a Christian.  So tell me, do you vote?  I need to know this, because Max says Christians don't vote.
I do not agree with Max that christians should ignore everything ungodly in the world, the lord himself tells us to adapt to both in his ”render unto cesear...” he does not say ignore cesear.

Jesus also made clear that his disciples "are no part of the world,  just as [he was] no part of the world." -John 17:15, 16 (Bracket mine.)

That's why Christians, while civic minded and law abiding tax payers, have always been politically neutral and refuse military service.

Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Khaos on March 30, 2020, 03:51:18 pm
Playing devil's advocate as as someone non-religious and therefore from the outside, why exactly did Christ advocate against homosexuality in the first place? Did he do so because he actually believed it to be a person's incorrect choice? An alternate solution is that he had to make concessions to get people to believe in The Bible as that was the only way that it could catch on enough for him to have his religion be efficacious in the day. When someone is too radical for their time, what happens is that they get shunned as a lunatic. Jesus was not truly omnipotent because he chose not to fully exercise that power. If you can answer these questions, you should also be able to answer the one you have.
Title: Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
Post by: Maxximiliann on May 01, 2020, 04:56:45 pm
Playing devil's advocate as as someone non-religious and therefore from the outside, why exactly did Christ advocate against homosexuality in the first place?

Because it was not in accordance with our Creator's purpose for humanity. At Matthew 19;4 Jesus called attention to what was recorded at Genesis 1:27, 28 where it shows that Jehovah God created two genders for the explicit purpose of procreation. This was the only way the first human man and woman could "become many, fill the earth and subdue it." (Genesis 1:28)

Since all sexual activity outside the confines of the marital arrangement contravenes this divine precept, it falls under the category of πορνεία, crass sexual immorality. (Mark 7:21, 23)