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General Discussion => Political Threads => Topic started by: bskeptic on November 22, 2020, 03:02:48 am

Title: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: bskeptic on November 22, 2020, 03:02:48 am
Opinion on the British Labour Party:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/textbased/news/text-8973859/PAUL-EMBERY-Labour-never-win-power-stops-hating-working-class.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/textbased/news/text-8973859/PAUL-EMBERY-Labour-never-win-power-stops-hating-working-class.html)
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: noncontingent on November 22, 2020, 07:20:39 am
The left is the same everywhere and for the same reasons.

A pox on the lot of them.
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: lapwing on November 22, 2020, 07:13:08 pm
"Hate" - really?

This tendency to heighten divisions by using overblown (and ridiculous) language is detrimental to human society and wellbeing

Story selected  by the newspaper which supported Hitler and the Nazis in the 1930s (fact) and has always supported the Tories at General Elections since WW2

(https://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/5/4/1272980216414/Party-support-in-general--004.jpg)
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: bskeptic on November 23, 2020, 01:15:47 am
"Hate" - really?

This tendency to heighten divisions by using overblown (and ridiculous) language is detrimental to human society and wellbeing

Story selected  by the newspaper which supported Hitler and the Nazis in the 1930s (fact) and has always supported the Tories at General Elections since WW2

(https://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/5/4/1272980216414/Party-support-in-general--004.jpg)


So you're picking on the use of one word, and the source which published the article...

Your normal rubbish I see.
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: lapwing on November 23, 2020, 05:44:35 am
The "one" word is in the headline - it's the key word in the headline. .

I see you quickly descend to personal insult.
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: noncontingent on November 23, 2020, 11:45:37 am
Differences between the left and the right.

The left defines itself as "people who need to help people".

The right defines itself as "people who want to help people stop needing help"

The left doesn't believe that minorities are as capable of following the law and competing in the marketplace as whites.

The right does.

The left doesn't believe that people know how to run their own lives w/o government interference and indoctrination.

The right does.

The left is against freedom for the individual.

The right is for individual freedom.

The left doesn't feel there should be accountability for bad decisions.

The right does.

The left thinks everyone is equally capable of all things and if there aren't equal numbers then someone put his thumb on the scales.

The right thinks everyone is legally capable of trying to do all things, but not necessarily succeeding as individuals differ in interests and abilities.

The left thinks all cultures are equally valid.

The right doesn't.

The left thinks historical slavery was an evil, but only white people were to blame.

The right thinks historical slavery was an evil, but believes that the blacks who sold blacks to the slave traders as well as the muslims who enslaved more people for a longer time are as culpable (see also todays' China)
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: lapwing on November 26, 2020, 06:36:51 pm
So many over generalisations in  just one post - mostly nonsense

e.g. "The left is against freedom for the individual" vs Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: noncontingent on November 26, 2020, 08:14:30 pm
So many over generalisations in  just one post - mostly nonsense

e.g. "The left is against freedom for the individual" vs Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite

The French revolution was leftist mob action
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: bskeptic on November 27, 2020, 05:47:59 am
The "one" word is in the headline - it's the key word in the headline. .


One word in a headline, even if arguably exaggerated, doesn't mean it's a bad piece of analysis. Rather, you're nitpicking. Language is sometimes a bit exaggerated to make a point.

That, and you're attacking a publisher rather than the content of the article. Obvious fallacy of a response.

Quote
I see you quickly descend to personal insult.

As you're giving nothing of substance, as per normal, I just pointed this out. Yes, that's slightly personal I guess. But for the most part, it's fair to be dismissive of your post.

You're the one that started attacking sources when it means next to nothing here. So er, you can't really complain if I give you a taste of your own medicine. I quickly "descended" because you *started* on that level!
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: lapwing on November 27, 2020, 02:11:02 pm
The publisher selects material - in this case for a political purpose,

At least I quoted from the article - so far you have not contributed any substance from it apart from the link and that it's about the Labour Party.
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: lapwing on November 27, 2020, 02:49:01 pm
So many over generalisations in  just one post - mostly nonsense

e.g. "The left is against freedom for the individual" vs Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite

The French revolution was leftist mob action

Liberty is a synonym for freedom. Glad to see you admit you were wrong.
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: Fred on November 30, 2020, 09:35:39 am
This reminds me of problems the Democratic party had in the 1960s.  Up until the mid-60s, the party had a segregationist wing and a "liberal" wing.  After Johnson pushed through civil rights legislation, the segregationists departed. My formerly Democratic cousins in rural central Texas told me they were voting for Republicans because the "Democrats did too much for the n***ers". 
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: a on November 30, 2020, 09:49:06 am
"Hate" - really?

This tendency to heighten divisions by using overblown (and ridiculous) language is detrimental to human society and wellbeing

Story selected  by the newspaper which supported Hitler and the Nazis in the 1930s (fact) and has always supported the Tories at General Elections since WW2

(https://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/site_furniture/2010/5/4/1272980216414/Party-support-in-general--004.jpg)
Hitler was quite popular globally in the 30s. If you were alive then, odds are you'd like him too. Jordan Peterson has good material on this.
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: a on November 30, 2020, 09:50:49 am
Differences between the left and the right.

The left defines itself as "people who need to help people".

The right defines itself as "people who want to help people stop needing help"

The left doesn't believe that minorities are as capable of following the law and competing in the marketplace as whites.

The right does.

The left doesn't believe that people know how to run their own lives w/o government interference and indoctrination.

The right does.

The left is against freedom for the individual.

The right is for individual freedom.

The left doesn't feel there should be accountability for bad decisions.

The right does.

The left thinks everyone is equally capable of all things and if there aren't equal numbers then someone put his thumb on the scales.

The right thinks everyone is legally capable of trying to do all things, but not necessarily succeeding as individuals differ in interests and abilities.

The left thinks all cultures are equally valid.

The right doesn't.

The left thinks historical slavery was an evil, but only white people were to blame.

The right thinks historical slavery was an evil, but believes that the blacks who sold blacks to the slave traders as well as the muslims who enslaved more people for a longer time are as culpable (see also todays' China)

The right isn't a thing. It's a negation. To be right is simply to be non-left. You won't find a consistent thread across the right. But broadly speaking I think you're right here.
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: lapwing on December 01, 2020, 04:46:19 am
Hitler was certainly popular for  time in Germany and Austria - he got elected and Austrians waved swastikas when the Nazis rolled in

Less popular among the left in the UK  given how the Nazis treated socialists, trade unionists and communists.
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: AgapeFire on December 01, 2020, 05:41:30 am
This reminds me of problems the Democratic party had in the 1960s.  Up until the mid-60s, the party had a segregationist wing and a "liberal" wing.  After Johnson pushed through civil rights legislation, the segregationists departed. My formerly Democratic cousins in rural central Texas told me they were voting for Republicans because the "Democrats did too much for the n***ers".
I hope they didn't tell you that recently. 

Thomas Frank (most known for What's the Matter with Kansas?) documents the Democrats' decades-long betrayal of the American working class in his 2016 book, Listen Liberal.  After their loss in 1968 to Richard Nixon, an internal struggle within the party began to brew between the working class and union members vs. the more academic, intellectual elite types.  Over time (and probably largely influenced by 1970's campaign finance law changes that essentially legalized corporate political bribery in the U.S.), the more white collar, academic elitist faction won out and it's made the party a mostly moderate, corporatist entity ever since.  The needs of the working class are largely ignored and even trampled on oftentimes. 

Nowadays, they focus on identity politics, while doing little the fight back against the oppressive, oligarchic rule of the elites/rich in the U.S.  Much of the Progressive Caucus isn't even progressive.  lol.

Some of that's changed recently with the Berniecrat movement.  You have Our Revolution/Justice Democrats/Brand New Congress running progressive (no corporate money backing allowed) candidates to try to win back the Democratic Party from its corporatist elected officials.  AOC is obviously the most notable of this bunch.

-AF

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formerly:  wlcgeek; keegclw; and GodLovesU - Hopefully, fourth time's a charm when it comes to remembering login info.!
Title: Re: Modern Left Hates the Working Class?
Post by: noncontingent on December 01, 2020, 08:31:57 am
So many over generalisations in  just one post - mostly nonsense

e.g. "The left is against freedom for the individual" vs Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite

The French revolution was leftist mob action

"They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to depravity. For a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him." - 2 Peter 2:19

Liberty is a synonym for freedom. Glad to see you admit you were wrong.