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1
Choose Your Own Topic / O I C Wut U Did Thar
« on: January 18, 2011, 02:21:43 pm »
saibomb wrote: It interests me as to how many atheists, rather than being happy for Digitalos, are attacking his faith.

"I don't know why you have to give credit to God whahah".

NO, you do need to give credit to God. He created the world, he has given us this wonderful opportunity to experience life - and He is the reason why donating anything at all makes sense. So God DOES deserve all the credit in the world. Only arrogance could possibly keep someone from seeing this.


If one sleeps with chickens one's bound to acquire the odour of chicken sh*t! Digitalos has chosen to embrace atheists, so......!

2
Choose Your Own Topic / O I C Wut U Did Thar
« on: January 18, 2011, 02:18:46 pm »
Composer wrote:
Quote from: mwalimu
 
Quote from: Composer

I was responding to mwalimu's ongoing false claims -

mwalimu wrote -

It is blasphemy to spread the LIES about Jesus being some of sort of Divine weakling who would tolerate and even indulge evil! His Words and Actions eloquently expressed the EXACT OPPOSITE! He was fair but stern!

Composer responded: -

Jesus the biblical fraud. (Part 1.)

The earliest Orthodox Jews (Pharisees & Sadducees) recognised from their TORAH (First 5 books of the bible), the fraudulent claims of this biblical Jesus.
 
The Christian misunderstanding is that the messiah, Jesus, died for the sins of the people. The messiah is supposed to be a human sacrifice that is the blood sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sin.

But we are taught in this proven self contradicting bible story book that no one can die for the sins of another. -

In Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV) it specifically says this:

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/) - What Jews believe Point 1.)
 
cf.
 
Fathers must not be put to death for what their children24 do, nor children for what their fathers do; each must be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16) NET story book
 
This was later confirmed by -
 
Ezekiel 18:20 RSV
"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html)  

More so -

Jews correctly also, do not believe in original sin.

IN SHORT... Jews do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. The concept of Original Sin simply states that because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they brought Death into the world. Every human being dies because Adam and Eve committed a sin, and for their sin, all humans are punished with death. However, the Bible describes something entirely different. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because if they remained, they could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would make them IMmortal. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become IMmortal, then they were created mortal to begin with. They did not bring Death into the world, and we don't die because they sinned. As a matter of Biblical fact, the answer to Question One shows that one person cannot die as the punishment for the sins committed by another. We die because Death is a natural part of existence, and has been since from the moment the first human beings were created. That is why God told the animals, before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, to be fruitful and to multiply, since they needed to replace themselves. God also told the same thing to Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit as well. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/) - What Jews believe Point 5.)




I can indeed also start a new thread about this if you wish?



mwalimu wrote:  
This is just DRIVEL - but I have no time to address it in detail now. I'll come to it later.

So far the DRIVEL is exclusively ALL YOURS deary!

Better luck IF you do return and try later and we'll see if you fair any better next time. LOL!







I'm NOT the one claiming that SH*T JUST HAPPENS - FOR NO REASON, dolt! That's YOU and your fellow atheistic boneheads! If that is not DRIVEL, what is? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

3
Choose Your Own Topic / Is God Omniscient ?
« on: January 18, 2011, 02:15:37 pm »
jbiemans wrote: but I can only operate one persona at a time, either the internet one or the normal life.  I cannot operate both at the same time.  Also, if what you are saying is true, why would his knowledge be limited ?  You have to take into account that while the tool may limit the actions of the user, it does not limit the user itself.

Its almost as if you are saying that Jesus is playing an MMO, and due to the limits of the game, while he is in the game he is limited (Ie, you cannot do everything you want inside a game.)  While this could be an interesting anology, it proposes that an limitless being can be forcibly limited.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Right! So when you're on the internet and the phone rings you don't hear it, eh dolt? Sheeeeeeeeesh! You sure you don't need to see a shrink? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

God is the Creator! He DOES NOT destroy! Destruction may be wrought via the misuse of His Power by those with Free Will to whom some of It is entrusted but NEVER by His Will! When God chose to enter into the world He could ONLY do so in a way that would not lead to its destruction - which implies He had to accept the limitations to activity therein - which alone allows earthly beings to survive. Just as the limitations here on the planet to mobility - as compared to outer space - allow us to survive, otherwise we should be wiped out very quickly by ionizing radiation and meteorite bombardment!

To continue the analogy, unless you actually wish to compromise a website, you will try and enter it in the legitimate way - and not force your way in, assuming you have the ability to do so, in a way which will damage it or force its shutdown by its operators who are bound to discover their security has been compromised. So, you're forced to accept the restrictions to your activity on the internet imposed by the websites you're visiting. The same was true for Christ in the flesh.

4
Choose Your Own Topic / Christians, what is your evidence?
« on: January 18, 2011, 02:01:13 pm »
jbiemans wrote:
SH*T JUST HAPPENS - FOR NO REASON - if you wait long enough!

This appears to be your catch phrase.  Here is a challenge, sit perfectly still and wait and see if NOTHING happens at all.  Stuff happens all the time.  Also by "for no reason", I suppose that you mean no externally defined purpose, if this is true then, yes!  Many things happen due to a cause, but with no reason.

Earthquakes have a cause, but no reason or purpose.  They are just the natural result of nature following the rules that it does.  Are you going to say things like rainbows and earthquakes don't just happen - for no reason ?


Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! Here's how Webster's defines "Reason", dolt:

Definition of REASON
1a   : a statement offered in explanation or justification b   : a rational ground or motive c   : a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense; especially   : something (as a principle or law) that supports a conclusion or explains a fact   d   : the thing that makes some fact intelligible : cause

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! Perhaps with some of you atheistic boneheads, it's just a case of a poor command of the language! Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! Reason means CAUSE, dolt! Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

5
Belief without Warrant / Untestable: Why?
« on: January 18, 2011, 01:54:34 pm »
infinitehope wrote: Sir, your laughter is unbecoming. And uncival. You make a great case for not being Christan if thats how Christans treat people with serous questions. My whole eternity is at stake and you mock me because you do not have an answer for me. Sir, I pitty you. Its easy to test any human, or molecules, etc. Yes, we go looking for them. We use a metholigiy to find and TEST them. We cant do that with God. Why not? I'm holding God to the SAME standards as I do anything or everything else. If I (for whatever reasion) did not know who the presendet was, I could find out. If I am not sure what I am made out of, I can find out. We can test anything other then God. We can pretty much deside the issue on big foot, he does not exist. If anyone wants to claim he does, they must prove it with data. Mainly a big foot. Alines have never visitided earth. Anyone that wants to prove that must show evedance of them doing it, any alien artifict could do that, materals, videos, etc.

Spirts are not testable.
Prayer is not testable.
God is not testable.
Nothing supernatural is testable, at all. Why not?
Can anyone answer this simple question with a real answer?



By the way, can you tell me how you've tested for the existence of Space - or does it not exist to you because it is not material? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! You're just a solipsistic buffoon! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

6
Belief without Warrant / Untestable: Why?
« on: January 18, 2011, 01:04:37 pm »
infinitehope wrote: Sir, your laughter is unbecoming. And uncival. You make a great case for not being Christan if thats how Christans treat people with serous questions. My whole eternity is at stake and you mock me because you do not have an answer for me. Sir, I pitty you. Its easy to test any human, or molecules, etc. Yes, we go looking for them. We use a metholigiy to find and TEST them. We cant do that with God. Why not? I'm holding God to the SAME standards as I do anything or everything else. If I (for whatever reasion) did not know who the presendet was, I could find out. If I am not sure what I am made out of, I can find out. We can test anything other then God. We can pretty much deside the issue on big foot, he does not exist. If anyone wants to claim he does, they must prove it with data. Mainly a big foot. Alines have never visitided earth. Anyone that wants to prove that must show evedance of them doing it, any alien artifict could do that, materals, videos, etc.

Spirts are not testable.
Prayer is not testable.
God is not testable.
Nothing supernatural is testable, at all. Why not?
Can anyone answer this simple question with a real answer?



Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! How do you know spirits, prayer, God etc. are not testable? What attempts have you made to examine whether they're testable or not - or are you just relying on atheistic GUT FEELING ? Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Do you even know what YOU MEAN by "supernatural", "spirits", "prayer", and "God"? If not, no wonder you have NO IDEA how to set about testing for them! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah! Or perhaps "supernatural" is just "what I don't know about yet" TO YOU! Again, no wonder you have NO IDEA how to test for things in that category! The problem is YOUR IGNORANCE - NOTHING ELSE! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

7
Choose Your Own Topic / Richard Strawkins [rant]
« on: January 18, 2011, 12:54:34 pm »
idrovetheepb wrote:
UTTER DRIVEL! What you prefer to believe is that SH*T JUST HAPPENED - FOR NO REASON and the Universe emerged, eh? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!


How does one become a mad scientist? Did you have go through some kind of apprenticeship or what?


Don't be silly!

8
Choose Your Own Topic / Is God Omniscient ?
« on: January 18, 2011, 12:52:36 pm »
jbiemans wrote: Your looking at it backwards.  My internet persona has the same knowledge as I have.  It is impossible for me to know something and for my internet persona to not know the same thing.

What you are saying is like saying that my windstar really has a Porsche nature but it cannot express it because it is limited by being in the body of a windstar.  Rather then facing the simple truth, that it actually is a windstar.


Not at all! Your internet persona is you - subjected to the limitations of the internet. There aren't two independent things here - just one! If you perish, so does your internet persona. If your internet persona perishes, you can simply set up another one. But without an internet persona you cannot communicate on the internet! That's about it!

In choosing to incarnate in the flesh, Jesus was subjected to its limits also - with regard to ALL of His Activity in the physical - but ONLY in that regard! No more! His Activity on the Cosmic Scale continued unperturbed - same as you maintain a normal life away from the internet.

9
Choose Your Own Topic / Christians, what is your evidence?
« on: January 18, 2011, 12:44:44 pm »
jbiemans wrote:
I think a child can see that miracles point to the truth of Christianity.  I think a child can see the evidence for design in nature.

and a child can see that a coin under their pillow in the morning points to the truth of the tooth fairy, and easter eggs on easter morning points to the truth of the easter bunny.


It depends how you define "Tooth Fairy" and "Easter Bunny", doesn't it? After all it's not as if they have a standard definition, do they? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah! So what if the child eventually finds out the Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny are just mum and dad, or that mum and dad work for them - how does that invalidate the miracle, to the child's mind, of the tooth under their pillow being replaced by a coin? Perhaps your parents just weren't very good as Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny assistants - and kept getting caught - and so didn't impress you. But why spoil it for others? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! After all when your girlfriend/wife says you're a knight in shining armour you don't take that LITERALLY either, do you? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

But you're right! The Truth of Christianity is NOT dependent on miracles! It is dependent ONLY on It's rationality and capacity to explain events in the Universe! It is CERTAINLY FAR SUPERIOR to the "truth" of Atheism, namely: SH*T JUST HAPPENS - FOR NO REASON - if you wait long enough! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

10
Choose Your Own Topic / logical problem of evil
« on: January 18, 2011, 12:28:57 pm »
Adito wrote:
Perhaps that's what creation is about -- bringing light to the void and filling it with life and meaning...

A perfectly good omniscient all powerful being will eliminate any evil that is not required for some greater good. Since my argument is that no greater good requires evil then it's impossible for a God with those traits to allow evil. Bringing light to the void is all well and good but if evil is an unnecessary part of the void then God, being what He is, would eliminate the evil or find a way to circumvent it.

If so, then God's role and nature is to transform S1 such that there is an emergent world built only on GMPs. The way in which God does so is dependent on what is the greatest good to accomplish this act. Here you cite one possibility, but we don't know if this is the greatest good. If we believe a good and all-powerful God exists, and evil exists, then we're committed to the notion that the greatest good was for God to utilize a world with a potential for evil to accomplish his will.

I've given a clear way for God to create a perfectly good world in either S1 or S2 and shown that no goods require evil. There is no reason to still be committed to the idea of a perfectly good God as well as evil.

You're using conjectures based on what you think would be better.

Would a world that consists of more GMPs than ours but without a single EMP be better? I don't see why this is mere conjecture. It's pretty much an analytic truth.



Do you regard the event of a baby falling on its bottom in its attempts to learn to walk an "evil" event? Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! Evil occurs ONLY when things are done with malicious intent! Errors committed whilst pursuing good intentions are not evil! In fact, through the lessons they teach they foster and strengthen good volition - just as the toddler learns from the experience of each fall, until at last it is able to walk in safety. A "fall on the bottom" of a nation naturally looks like a far more tragic event to the eyes of the ignorant than it really is - just as they travails of a woman about to give birth looks terrible to the faint-hearted and feeble-minded! But it is also true that MUCH that is evil nowadays plagues humanity. But to blame God for it is simply ignorant!

Development is not possible unless there is tolerance of imperfection by the Perfect! Much of God's Creation is devoted to providing good environments where the imperfect can develop towards the Perfect and under the Latter's Influence - as children develop under the influence of their parents. But, despite the best guidance, some children "turn bad"! This is a consequence of the fact that they possess Free Will. When a gift of an automobile is given to a man, for instance, there is always the possibility that he may kill himself with it. But does this justify withholding the gift? And, if the automobile is used responsibly does this possibility need ever manifest?


11
Choose Your Own Topic / logical problem of evil
« on: January 18, 2011, 12:11:00 pm »
_CTD_ wrote:
Quote from: mwalimu
Quote from: Adito

Why does courage require evil? I can think of many examples of courage that make no reference to evil. Consider the student who takes on ever greater challenges without being certain about his eventual success. This takes courage yet it's not necessary that evil be involved. Besides, you're ignoring the supporting argument in favor of no GMPs requiring EMPs. All GMPs are instantiated in our working concept of God but God has no EMPs therefor there cannot be a logically necessary connection between the two.

I didn't understand the rest of your argument about the scoffer. Would you mind restating it in different terms?


Courage DOES NOT require evil. In fact, genuine courage can ONLY EVER be good - and emerges from a strong desire to defend the good!

I think you were reading too rapidly. The scoffer argument being the assertion package it is, I asked how to make courage without evil.

They have claimed to know with certainty (and in the context they need to be able to prove) that no good thing requires evil in any way. Now watch and enjoy as the arrogant claim fails.


I shall indeed watch - closely!

12
Choose Your Own Topic / defense of hell -- fallacy
« on: January 18, 2011, 12:09:31 pm »
lancia wrote:
Quote from: forthelord

Well, not if you are a molinist and accept transworld depravity. If evidence is all they needed to be saved, then they would get that evidence to satisfy them. Intellectual honest nonbelievers who would pursue a relationship with God if they had enough evidence will be convinced before they die. People who go to hell, on this view, would never have accepted Christ. It seems perfectly plausible that these people would only grow in hatred the more they are punished.

Why would anyone accept transworld depravity, except to rationalize their belief that those in hell deserve to be there eternally? Jesus makes it very clear that the entire idea of transworld damnation is false, for he knew that some who died unrepentant would have repented had they witnessed the miracles, i.e., additional evidence (e.g., Matthew 11:21, Luke 10:13).



Why do you think Jesus was referring to miracles (in the traditional sense) here - rather than the miracle of the Word of Truth coming to earth to dwell amongst the Israelites?

13
Choose Your Own Topic / defense of hell -- fallacy
« on: January 18, 2011, 12:06:03 pm »
jbiemans wrote: Here is a though about hell.  Imagine that you are one of the young female children from Jericho.  The isrealities come and distroy your city, killing your whole family, and then take you captive and you must become a slave or a wife to an Isealite.  All this was done under the command of God.

1) Do you think you could ever love that God ?
2) Do you deserve to go to hell because you cannot ?


Don't be stupid! Just because it is claimed in a book  written by the Israelites that God sanctioned their colonisation of the lands of others it DOES NOT follow this was the case! It was just as wrong then as it was when Europeans went on their colonising missions to Africa, Asia, America, and Australasia, for instance. And the same is true for ALL other colonising missions carried out with brute force!

These were raids carried out by bandit states - and were NEVER Divinely sanctioned! Does it not strike you as odd that Moses who had prevailed against the mighty Egyptian Pharaoh and had safely led the Israelites for DECADES in the hostile desert exposed to the dangers of destructive raids by Hittites and Babylonians as well as others did not enter into their so-called "Promised Land" with them? Does this "Promised Land" look to you like it is flowing with milk and honey! Has it ever done so? And how small it is! Certainly, it straddled important ancient trade routes which brought great wealth to whoever controlled it; but is that really all one can expect of a Divine Gift from the Most High?

The true Promised Land is the Spiritual Kingdom on earth in which God's Laws are fully recognised by human beings and adhered to - which would then inevitably bring Paradise on earth - wherever it may be located physically! The Israelites, as happened MANY times under Moses' leadership, sought a quick and easy fulfilment in accordance with their own materialistic ideas, for which they had been MANY times censured by Moses! This led to increasing tension between them and Moses and eventually resulted in a parting of ways! It is not inconceivable that he was even murdered - and then stories made up to explain why this great hero had not led them into the "Promised Land" himself ! Surely, he who had power enough to lead them to safety away from Egypt and persecution under Pharaoh could have led them also far more easily and rapidly to the conquest of Canaan - had he wished to and had God commanded it! But it was not so!

However, the Canaanites were a corrupt people at the time themselves and what struck them from the Israelites was also the hand of Fate! A Fate they had prepared for themselves with their own volition. It is WRONG to blame ANY of it on God!

14
Choose Your Own Topic / Is God Omniscient ?
« on: January 18, 2011, 07:17:29 am »
jbiemans wrote: I thought of a good analogy for this concept this morning:

Imagine if I told you that my mini-van has 2 natures;

1) The nature of being a ford windstar
2) The nature of being a porche boxter.

Since both natures are in the body of the ford windstar, only the properties of the windstar nature can manifest, therefore things that are essential to the boxter nature are unable to manifest (speed, aerodynamics, fuel economy, convertable, etc.).  However once my windstar goes to the scrap yard, I can construct a new boxter body and place the boxter nature in that body allowing it to finally express its nature.

If that sounds silly, then maybe you can understand my problem with using that argument for Jesus.


No! It's more like Jesus had ONLY a Divine Nature but required a human TOOL to be able to work amongst human beings. Just as you are a human being but require an internet persona to be able to work on the internet. If this internet persona which identifies you on the internet becomes invalid for some reason - say it is de-activated - you will no longer be able to be active on the internet with it. That is all. Also, you can only be active with it to the extent that it has been granted access to resources at various locations on the internet. Naturally, you can try and hack your way in - but unless you actually disable or bypass the access control systems, thereby exposing them to other dangers and triggering alarms, you will not be able to access anything with that particular identity.

Of-course you can still access the internet using other personas.

15
Moral Argument / Can objective morality exist without God?
« on: January 18, 2011, 01:20:11 am »
ooberman wrote:
Quote from: joel
Justice is a very frightening topic.
It's only frightening to those who fear.

 For if humanity rejects transcendent morals, then there can no longer be justice.  There can only be power.
Welcome to a universe of only power.  It's not bad - it just is.  (After all, power can be used for Good)

Quote from: jbiemans
Is the law of gravity objective ?

Are any of the laws in physics objective ? (thermodynamics, motion,  conservation of energy, etc).


Yes.  Physical laws apply to everything (so long as we're not dragging quantum nonsense into it again).  I haven't really thought about whether it is possible for them to exist as platonistic ideas.  I would doubt it.  I do believe physical laws are grounded in God.  As in, He made them such as they are, and they are what they are regardless of personal opinions on the matter.  No unanimity of human opinion will change them.

Why assume someone made them?


Great discussion, btw.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah! "Quantum nonsense", eh dolt? You think you can pick and choose which of the physical laws apply? Or escape RESPONSIBILITY for the CONSEQUENCES of ANYTHING you do with power? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!  ALL Natural Laws are the expression of a PRECEDING and DOMINATING State of Existence imposed on a SUBSEQUENT and SUBORDINATE State of Existence. Therefore, Natural Laws are an expression of the property of the Higher State of Existence in the lower! They do not just exist - they are based on the Original State of Existence - God!

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