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Messages - Cletus Nze

31
Apologetics and Theology / Christians, what is your evidence?
« on: January 17, 2011, 12:42:31 pm »
wonderer wrote:

Quote from: brian_g
1. Every contingent fact has an explanation.

What does this even mean?  Are you conflating "cause" with "explanation"?  I'm curious as to whether you have any non-circular support claim.

The universe had a beginning, which implies it didn't have to exist.  The universe can change over time, implies it doesn't have to be the way it is.  We can postulate different universes with different laws and we don't run into contradictions or absurdities.


It appears to me that this assumes an A-theory of time, which does run into contradictions and absurdities with Einstein's relativity.


Such as what "contradictions" and "absurdities"? Do YOU know? Or are you just ignorantly parrotting something you've read on an Atheism website? Pray tell why you think that the Present has not developed from the Past - and that the Future will not develop from the Present! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

32
wonderer wrote:
Quote from: mwalimu
Quote from: wonderer

Quote from: mwalimu
It's presumptuous to demand of God the He helps you as you want and not as is best for you. It will go hard for a child that makes such demands of ANY good parent! Such a child is trying to make the parent into no more than an obliging minion who does its bidding. In the case of God, it probably thinks of Him as its own Aladdin's genie. This are childish expectations that will NEVER receive fulfillment from the Most High!

God grants what is best for His creatures out of His Wisdom, not what suits them or seems pleasant to them at the moment.



And your point is......WHAT?

For he who has eyes to see.



Pah! You think the WHOLE STORY is in just ONE picture? ONLY fools are impressed by such things! To judge aright, you need to know the FULL STORY from beginning to end! You have to be able to answer the question: "HOW did they come to be in that situation in the first place?" Don't just put it down to SH*T JUST HAPPENING - FOR NO REASON! If you're going to do that, you have NO RIGHT to claim you are saying ANYTHING LOGICAL!

33
Apologetics and Theology / logical problem of evil
« on: January 17, 2011, 12:33:49 pm »
tcampen wrote:

I think the issue of perfect foreknowledge comes into play, for if a being with perfect foreknowledge creates a world with potential evil, it is no longer potential - it is actual as a result of that perfect foreknowledge.  Only if the creator honestly does not know whether the potential evil will manifest within the creation does this line have a chance.



Don't be absurd! How can there be foreknowledge of what Free Will will do? How is that possible? Are you expecting MAGIC here? If you give the gift of Free Will, that is equivalent to giving up the ability to regiment what you have so gifted. Ever heard of delegating?

34
Apologetics and Theology / logical problem of evil
« on: January 17, 2011, 12:30:18 pm »
Adito wrote:
If the IS has the potential for evil -- which is not under God's control

An omniscient, omnipotent being is not in control of the initial state of the universe? That doesn't follow. Even if He does not have such control He clearly has control over the IS of those worlds He chooses to create.

I'm not sure I understand your distinction between potential for evil and evil. It seems to be the case that if there's a chance a child may starve in Africa then this is evil. It's also true that if a child is actually starving in Africa then this is also evil. Where's the difference?

If I understand you correctly, it's something along the lines of, "If God paints a blue picture, how could there ever be red in it?"

Something like that. It's more like "If God can paint blue pictures, doesn't like red at all and there's no red in blue then He would never paint a picture with red in it."


Oh shut up! You've been given Free Will! Why do you still need to have your bottom and nose wiped for you? Grow up! Sheeeeeeeesh! Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

35
Apologetics and Theology / Christians, what is your evidence?
« on: January 17, 2011, 12:27:29 pm »
rsmartin wrote:
Quote from: brian_g
Quote from: jbiemans
Argument from contingency.
This argument concludes that there is a necessary being that caused the contingent world.  A necessary being must have necessary essential attributes.  Something that's necessary must have been the case, whereas something that is contingent could have been otherwise.  This being must be all powerful since if it could have been more powerful this property would be contingent.  The same argument works for his knowledge.  If it's knowledge could have been greater, his knowledge would be contingent.

This is a new one to me.  I don't understand why a contingent universe requires a necessary being ??  Isn't it just as possible for there to be a contingent cause for a contingent effect ?

I suppose that it is also theoretically possible that the universe is not contingent but necessary in itself.



There have been a number of different formulations of this argument but it basically works like this:

1. Every contingent fact has an explanation.
2. There are one or more contingent facts.
3. We can put all the contingent facts together and call it the big contingent fact. BCT
4. BCT must be contingent (since it is made up completely of contingent facts.)
5. BCT must have an explanation.  (from 1.)
6. The explanation of BCT must either be a necessary fact or a contingent fact.
7. It cannot be contingent because otherwise it would be in BCT and BCT would explain itself.
8. The explanation of BCT must be necessary.

So I think that answers why there must be a necessary being.  To answer your second question, why couldn't the universe be necessary?  First, when we look at the properties of the necessary being it doesn't match the properties of the universe.  As I pointed out it would have to be all-powerful, since if you could give it more power it would be contingent.  The same with all-knowing.  Second, when we look at the universe we can find evidence that it is contingent, since it could be different.  The universe had a beginning, which implies it didn't have to exist.  The universe can change over time, implies it doesn't have to be the way it is.  We can postulate different universes with different laws and we don't run into contradictions or absurdities.  


Thank you for your efforts in providing the evidence I requested. But this is very abstract philosophy and requires many years of education to correctly understand. Which stands in direct opposition to the teaching that Christianity is a simple religion that even children and illiterate slaves can understand.


Well then how about this: SH*T CAN NEVER HAPPEN - FOR NO REASON - however long you wait! Clear enough?

36
wonderer wrote:

Quote from: mwalimu
It's presumptuous to demand of God the He helps you as you want and not as is best for you. It will go hard for a child that makes such demands of ANY good parent! Such a child is trying to make the parent into no more than an obliging minion who does its bidding. In the case of God, it probably thinks of Him as its own Aladdin's genie. This are childish expectations that will NEVER receive fulfillment from the Most High!

God grants what is best for His creatures out of His Wisdom, not what suits them or seems pleasant to them at the moment.



And your point is......WHAT?

37
wonderer wrote:

Quote from: Lightfoot
wonderer,

by putting all responsibility for human suffering on humans.


I don't think he argued that all responsibility for human suffering was made by humans. There is a lot of suffering including famine that can be avoided and we are to blame.

Because we could improve the situation, but God could not?

Explain to me, how an omnipotent God would not be as much to blame, as any far less than omnipotent human.


Why not FIRST ask how you've come to be in this situation in the first place? Do you think SH*T JUST HAPPENED - FOR NO REASON and you arrived here? Or don't you realise that you can ONLY be where you have been brought by the exercise of your Free Will - or the failure to exercise it when you should have? Even if you've forgotten, or were barely aware of this activity; even if you merely allowed yourself to be irresponsibly swept along unresistingly by others - you remain RESPONSIBLE for ALL THIS!

To be given RESPONSIBILITY is the greatest possible honour - such as is given to a sovereign - but the weight of it will CRUSH whoever does not diligently rise up to bear it bravely and honestly! It is ONLY this ability to bear FULL RESPONSIBILITY for ALL the CONSEQUENCES of his activity that makes Man the ONLY creature with the possibility to become an Image of God! - Which in fully expressing the potentialities of complete freedom in decision-making reflects the Absolute Autonomy of the Almighty! A possibility that can be made manifest ONLY when he actually fulfils his duties in this regard - and not continually tries to avoid RESPONSIBILITY!

38
Omniscience / Matthew 11:21 - Does it defend Molinism?
« on: January 17, 2011, 12:01:18 pm »
Christ's Sacrifice lay ONLY in undertaking the arduous sojourn to this earth - as a good shepherd seeking lost sheep does - in other to rescue mankind from the entanglements arising from the consequences of wrong actions which were threatening to choke them to death - both physically and spiritually! This He came to do by bringing the Word of Truth to mankind in Purity! That  ALONE can bring salvation! His dastardly MURDER helped NO ONE! On the contrary, it brought down a CURSE on mankind, the terrible consequences of which still cast a long shadow over EVERYTHING today!


39
Moral Argument / Demonstrating the existence of Objective Moral Values
« on: January 17, 2011, 11:47:51 am »
It is NOT POSSIBLE to say WHY a thing is right or wrong, OBJECTIVELY, unless there is some ABSOLUTE STANDARD of right and wrong to compare it to. Those who have no awareness of such an ABSOLUTE Standard are simply morally depraved! There are no alternative standards of morality - ONLY ONE! And there are some who are aware of it - and others who suppress it within themselves with irresponsible intellectual tinkering till it can barely be recognised by them. And then, of-course, they become confused as to what is right and wrong - where EVERY NORMAL PERSON of sound mind can IMMEDIATELY judge clearly!

Like the ghoul Mengele, they lose the ability to recognise that the torture and murder of infants can NEVER bring ANYTHING good ultimately for ANYONE! Indeed, they DO NOT bring ANYTHING good in the short-time either - even when they appear to the narrow-minded and morally corrupt to do so!

40
Apologetics and Theology / logical problem of evil
« on: January 17, 2011, 07:14:33 am »

Adito wrote:
And that is why Theists use free will. If God does not allow us to remove his will from our decision making process, we don't have free will.


There's no reason for God to allow us the ability to do evil. God himself is free yet can never do evil  and since he's perfectly good there's nothing objectively good about being able to do evil. God could have made us with a perfect sense of morality such that we would understand evil but never make an evil choice. Therefor freedom could have been preserved and evil prevented.

If it is pre-determined how you will use your Free Will, then you DO NOT HAVE IT AT ALL! Or at any rate are not free to express it! Why this fear of taking responsibility? Get the stabilisers of that bike and learn how to balance yourself! Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

41
Apologetics and Theology / Christians, what is your evidence?
« on: January 17, 2011, 07:10:46 am »

JohnQuin wrote: Is the question what is the verifiable scientific evidence for God's existence?
If so this seems to misunderstand the nature of science. On most definitions science does not deal with the super natural.
Beyond that not even science can guarantee verifiable evidence for it's theories.

Yet some people seem far more willing to accept that things like dark energy and dark matter exist than God. Even though the same sort of deductive reasoning processes is used.
Or are you asking what are the rational arguments for God's existence?

I get a hint that you are running foul of verificationism but I guess I shouldn't jump to conclusions.


Referring to God as "supernatural" creates an air of unreality around Him. That is WRONG! As the Original State of Existence, God is the MOST NATURAL THING POSSIBLE! Indeed He is the Essence of Nature - Nature's Self! For Nature is not merely what can be perceived with the gross physical senses - at the moment - but ALL THAT EXISTS! Referring to God as "supernatural" only helps the false arguments of atheists that God is only imaginary.

42
Apologetics and Theology / Is God Omniscient ?
« on: January 17, 2011, 07:02:45 am »
jbiemans wrote:
Where Free Will is involved, 100% predictability is IMPOSSIBLE!

So prophecy about any human is impossible !  Great, that means that all the prophecy's in the bible that involve people are impossible!  When Jesus said that Peter would deny him three times, it was just a guess, because its impossible to predict human behavior ?

When that human is COMMITTED to a particular direction of development, then prophecies CAN be made about him on that basis. The logic is no different from what obtains ordinarily. There is NO MAGIC in the way the Laws of God - the Laws of the Cosmos - work!

In the specific of Peter, and Judas earlier on, Jesus could CLEARLY see their inner attitudes and intentions which they wouldn't admit even to themselves - at least for a while. There was no magic involved. It wasn't even a miracle. What Jesus did there can be achieved by ANY good psychologist - or just carefully observant person. His greatness is NOT enhanced by spinning fanciful stories around His actions that are not in accord with the Divine (i.e. Natural) Laws. On the contrary!

43
On Guard / Properly Basic Belief
« on: January 17, 2011, 01:13:54 am »
robertfair wrote:

hey SK, thanks for your last posting.  I greatly appreciate the thought you put into that last posting.  There are no "buts."  And to Christ, i believe you are of unestimable value, even more than unestimable.  That is the simple message-RF  



Oh brother! Now blasphemers are of "inestimable value" to Christ? Is this not really a case of converted atheists being of inestimable value to the treasury of your Church? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

44
On Guard / Properly Basic Belief
« on: January 17, 2011, 01:08:03 am »
SceptiKarl wrote: robertfair says:

The bible teaches that the Kingdom of Heaven is within you (Luke 17:21).

robert, perhaps you could give me a few reasons why some two thirds of humanity are NOT Christians. The kingdom of heaven is certainly not within me, nor all those Muslems, Jews, Buddhists, atheists etc. Maybe, just maybe, the good book is not all it's cracked up to be?

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" Exodus 22. 18



Of-course the Kingdom of Heaven is NOT within YOU! What would it want with a blaspheming atheistic bonehead? How could it remain the Kingdom of Heaven if the likes of you were admitted there?

Christ was referring to those who were still inwardly alive spiritually - NOT to the DEAD!



45
On Guard / Kalam CA and our Soul
« on: January 17, 2011, 01:00:06 am »
SceptiKarl wrote:


Hi Robert! "Scofferdom" - now that's a good one! As to "worshipping" on the High Alter of Materialism - I must plead guilty as charged. Just bear in mind that "materialism" means that there is an external (to us) reality which we experience through our senses. That our senses are the only contact with this external world. I know "materialism" has another meaning to do with being money grabbing, but I'm nor using it in that sense. Science bases itself upon a materialistic basis and science has certainly explained a lot more about the world than Christianity ever did. Science has produced the goodies whereby we can communicate on this message board. No doubt, Robert, you visit a doctor if you feel ill and take the treatment s/he advises? All based in science - not on driving demons out of your body, as described in a certain holy book.

Are your senses dependent on you or are you dependent on your senses? Can you act or experience BEFORE existing?

The outer reality of materialism is WHOLLY dependent on the inner Reality of the soul - which is aware of itself and its abilities without the aid of the senses! To try to explain this inner Reality on the basis of relatively paltry physical senses is something that can be expected ONLY of the sort of fool who believes that SH*T CAN JUST HAPPEN - FOR NO REASON! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!


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