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William

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Salvation
« on: June 06, 2007, 06:16:09 pm »
FIrst I want to as a question to all the Christians here. Do you maintain that there are beliefs that are necessary for salvation? If so, what are they? ALso, must I know these things, or merely believe them?

Second,

    I think that whatever you have to believe  to be saved, you must believe something like the following:
(A) Everyone needs to be saves.
(B) Jesus can save me.

 B will obviously entail something about JEsus's death on a cross being able to save me.

Can anyone explain A and B to me. WHy do I need to be saved and how am I saved by Jesus?

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Harvey

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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2007, 09:47:19 pm »

William wrote: FIrst I want to as a question to all the Christians here. Do you maintain that there are beliefs that are necessary for salvation? If so, what are they? ALso, must I know these things, or merely believe them?

I won't commit to someone having certain beliefs now, but at some point prior to being saved I think that for one to be saved must have a possess a number of beliefs (e.g., a belief in God, a belief in the power of faith, a belief that God saves, a belief in repentance from sin, a belief in the Holiness of God, and, of course, a belief in the person and sacrifice of Christ).

I'm not sure how you define knowledge. But, if you mean as "empirically justified belief," then I'd say no since faith is not empirically justified belief, but I think our beliefs be based soley on faith.

William wrote: I think that whatever you have to believe  to be saved, you must believe something like the following:
(A) Everyone needs to be saves.
(B) Jesus can save me.

B will obviously entail something about JEsus's death on a cross being able to save me. Can anyone explain A and B to me. WHy do I need to be saved and how am I saved by Jesus?


I'm not an expert in theology, so I'm not up to date on all the theological theories. So, much of my perspective is more speculative in nature.

I think that the universe is some kind of Turing machine that will eventually come upon an undecidable problem. When this happens, I think there will be some kind of review of everything that has existed in the universe's past. The objects which have some kind of decidability with regard to their eternal nature, will be "saved"  or "lost." Those objects that lack this kind of decidability will perhaps undergo more decision processes, and the fate of those objects will be decided at some point. If true, then as an object, everyone needs to be saved to avoid being incompatible with God (e.g., moral truth).

This internal belief of being saved by Jesus is important since it makes us "decidable" as being one of the eternal structures that God will seek out and remember. If the logic of sacrificial atonement is sound, and the individual believes that Jesus is eternally with God, and actually is God, and is saved by Jesus' blood, then the decidability criteria will be met. Therefore, their expectations (viz, Heaven) will be satisfied as long as those expectations are not in conflict with God's nature. E.g., no 20,000 virgins if this violates any moral truths.

So, it is very important for those in the world to accept Jesus and his sacrifice. Jesus means "God saves" and those who are grafted onto that branch will be part of a chain that is kept out of the metaphorical fire at the end. However, I don't think we have to wait the end of the universe for this to happen, the nature of time I think is such that we'll experience this moment of judgment immediately upon our natural deaths.

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William

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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2007, 10:57:57 pm »
harvey1 wrote:

I'm not an expert in theology, so I'm not up to date on all the theological theories. So, much of my perspective is more speculative in nature.

I think that the universe is some kind of Turing machine that will eventually come upon an undecidable problem. When this happens, I think there will be some kind of review of everything that has existed in the universe's past. The objects which have some kind of decidability with regard to their eternal nature, will be "saved"  or "lost." Those objects that lack this kind of decidability will perhaps undergo more decision processes, and the fate of those objects will be decided at some point. If true, then as an object, everyone needs to be saved to avoid being incompatible with God (e.g., moral truth).

This internal belief of being saved by Jesus is important since it makes us "decidable" as being one of the eternal structures that God will seek out and remember. If the logic of sacrificial atonement is sound, and the individual believes that Jesus is eternally with God, and actually is God, and is saved by Jesus' blood, then the decidability criteria will be met. Therefore, their expectations (viz, Heaven) will be satisfied as long as those expectations are not in conflict with God's nature. E.g., no 20,000 virgins if this violates any moral truths.

So, it is very important for those in the world to accept Jesus and his sacrifice. Jesus means "God saves" and those who are grafted onto that branch will be part of a chain that is kept out of the metaphorical fire at the end. However, I don't think we have to wait the end of the universe for this to happen, the nature of time I think is such that we'll experience this moment of judgment immediately upon our natural deaths.

  What are the beliefs that one must possess to be saved?
     When I asked if knowledge is necessary for salvation I did not want to commit to any particular theory of justificaiton. Nobody so far as I know thinks that "empirically justified belief" is sufficient, or even necessary for knowledge. You say that beliefs are necessary for salvation. I guess what I want to know is if it is OK to hold those beliefs in an irrational way? Is it OK if it is completely accidental that I hold the correct beliefs for salvation? What if someone were to invent a pill that could make you have all the right beliefs? ANd what if someone put that pill in my water and I became a Christian because of it. Lets say that I become a christian because of this pill. Do I still get to go to heaven? Or lets say that I am just completely irrational and I hold the requisite beliefs for completely crazy, irational reasons, reasons that we would all agree are irational (however you want to chop 'irrational'). Do I get credit for those beliefs on judgment day? Just curious?
      Wow- about the Turing stuff. I guess I just have no idea what your talking about.I guess I can only say that I award you no points. May God ahve mercy on your soul.
 

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Harvey

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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2007, 06:38:50 am »
William wrote: You say that beliefs are necessary for salvation. I guess what I want to know is if it is OK to hold those beliefs in an irrational way? Is it OK if it is completely accidental that I hold the correct beliefs for salvation? What if someone were to invent a pill that could make you have all the right beliefs? ANd what if someone put that pill in my water and I became a Christian because of it. Lets say that I become a christian because of this pill. Do I still get to go to heaven?


If such a pill were possible, then I think the answer is no, you would not be a Christian. Having Christian beliefs is necessary for grace to be bestowed, but it is not sufficient.

William wrote: I guess I can only say that I award you no points. May God ahve mercy on your soul.


Be nice, William. I would like to have a pleasant discussion with you, versus none at all.

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William

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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2007, 01:22:48 pm »
So  'beliefs' per se are not necessary for salvation, knowledge is, right. IT is not enough to hold the requisite beliefs, but one must hold them ina rational way, one must be justified in believing them?



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Harvey

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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2007, 01:39:58 pm »

William wrote:    So  'beliefs' per se are not necessary for salvation, knowledge is, right. IT is not enough to hold the requisite beliefs, but one must hold them ina rational way, one must be justified in believing them?

Of course not. The insufficiency of having certain requisite beliefs does not infer that one must have knowledge. For example, a student cannot just walk into a class where she possesses all the requisite beliefs needed to pass the course, and still expect to pass the course. There are certain actions that the student must perform (e.g., enroll in the college, enroll in the class, take tests, write papers, etc). Similarly, to have grace bestowed one must at least be called by God to be part of the elect, they must repent of their sins and show the fruits of repentance, etc.

Are you a non-Christian theist? Your comments suggest that you view Plantinga highly, but have no interest in Christianity. Is that correct?

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William

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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2007, 02:29:06 pm »
harvey1 wrote:

Quote from: William
  So  'beliefs' per se are not necessary for salvation, knowledge is, right. IT is not enough to hold the requisite beliefs, but one must hold them ina rational way, one must be justified in believing them?

Of course not. The insufficiency of having certain requisite beliefs does not infer that one must have knowledge. For example, a student cannot just walk into a class where she possesses all the requisite beliefs needed to pass the course, and still expect to pass the course. There are certain actions that the student must perform (e.g., enroll in the college, enroll in the class, take tests, write papers, etc). Similarly, to have grace bestowed one must at least be called by God to be part of the elect, they must repent of their sins and show the fruits of repentance, etc.

Are you a non-Christian theist? Your comments suggest that you view Plantinga highly, but have no interest in Christianity. Is that correct?


    No this is not what I meant. I understand that possesing beliefs is a necessary but not suffienient condition of salvation. I understand that there is more than certain cognitive attitides involved in salvation. AS JAmes says-"even the demons believe and they shudder."
    I want to know something diferent. I want to know about the necessary and sufficient conditions of this particular necessary condition (of believing).
    What I was asking is if to meet this necessary condition of believing that it is sufficient to hold these beliefs irationally (say by taking a pill), or if one must also hold these beliefs rationally? YOur comments made me think the latter is true, ie, that one must not only believe the requisite things, but also that one must believe them rationally, ie, that one must know them.
   That is what I meant when I said that one must know and not merely believe. Hope this makes sense.

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Harvey

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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2007, 03:38:59 pm »

William wrote: ...one must not only believe the requisite things, but also that one must believe them rationally, ie, that one must know them. That is what I meant when I said that one must know and not merely believe. Hope this makes sense.

One must believe certain requisite beliefs on sufficient grounds. Sufficiency is not determined by scientific or philosophical standards. To be sufficient our beliefs must be gauged by certain rational standards, by certain emotional standards (i.e., we must be cut to the heart), by certain mental standards (e.g., are we sane and able to soundly know what it is that we believe), and even by certain spiritual standards (e.g., are we genuinely seeking God). God judges the heart, and God's judgment requires God to judge. Salvation is a gift and God is the judge on who will receive that gift.

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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2011, 10:11:19 am »

William  wrote: FIrst I want to as a question to all the Christians here. Do you maintain that there are beliefs that are necessary for salvation? If so, what are they? ALso, must I know these things, or merely believe them?

Second,

I think that whatever you have to believe to be saved, you must believe something like the following:
(A) Everyone needs to be saves.
(B) Jesus can save me.

B will obviously entail something about JEsus's death on a cross being able to save me.

Can anyone explain A and B to me. WHy do I need to be saved and how am I saved by Jesus?

I think first belief or understanding must be that God loves you and has a plan (a good and better one) for your life. Even if you don’t believe you’re worthy or understand how God could love you in light of your behavior and thoughts, you have to accept for the moment that He somehow does

The second or concurrent belief or understanding is admit you’re a sinner…either actively or passively disobeying God. You can’t think that you are sinless or that your sin is insignificant, because all sin, major or minor, creates a separation between God and us and must be removed. unfortunately all our efforts to do this though good works, philosophy, religion etc will fail; some of us doing better than another but all have the same result of not reaching God.

Along with our sense of personal sin there is the nagging fear of judgement and a very uncertain future ahead in regard to the time we must finally meet God. We know deep inside the wrath of God is coming and now is the time He has given us to respond to His Salvation.

At some point someone makes you aware of Jesus’ sacrifice and you must accept that Jesus’ death and blood is the only solution to sin. Jesus bridges the gap between man and God and He alone is the Way the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the father except through Him.

Here is where head knowledge ends the quest for salvation and here is where so many people stop.

It’s not enough to know these things! By the decision of your will you have to personally accept Christ through invitation.

There are only two people who can control your life. Either it’s you who sets at the center of your life and controls things or you surrender that control center to Jesus. If you want to continue the messed up life and separation from God you have been experiencing, then stay as your own master.

On the other hand if your tired of the sin, guilt and worry that you are experiencing in the self-controlled life then you must allow Jesus to be at the center and control everything.

If you (or anyone) wants Jesus at the center of your life then that can happen right now by personally receiving Jesus through prayerful invitation. Words are not so important as the intent of the heart. God knows whether you’re sincere or not.

Inviting Jesus into your heart is personal because God is a person and not just an idea or concept to accept. He is a real person Who at that moment is leaning down very close to you with His arms wide open. This is much more literal than you may think because there is some much around us we do not see or comprehend. This is your first real step of faith and trust by that faith.

God will respond immediately by forgiving all your sins (past present and future) and then come to live inside you, not metaphorically but actually enter into you to dwell.

From this point on you must Walk by faith to follow and obey Jesus to the best of your ability and understanding with the knowledge that Jesus inside us gives us the power to obey and he is 100% for us! And if we slip we can immediately confess our sin and receive forgiveness and cleansing from all sin. Daily reading God’s Word helps us to be more like Him and conform to the image of Christ.

Knowledge always requires an action and decision on our part. They are intertwined together like the spirit and body.  I hope this answers your question. I thiink everyone faces a moment of decision about Jesus, whether they are of religious background or not. I think this best describes the steps to Salvation. It did for me!

- Don


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jagged

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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 04:39:02 am »
G'day William,
I would endorse what Don has said. When it comes to salvation, the Bible is very clear.
We do not choose God, we do not choose our own salvation.
God, clearly chooses those who are to be saved.
Saved from what, you may ask.
Saved from the coming judgement of all mankind.

I know that I did not choose to become a christian.
I know that Jesus Christ chose me, that I have eternal life, and that I fear no condemnation.
I will praise Him forever and ever.
My sin was revealed to me, by the Holy Spirit, otherwise I would not know that I was a sinner.
I confessed my sin, was cleansed from all my sin by Christ's sacrifice on the cross, and have received the GIFT of eternal life.
Christ's resurrection is proof that God exists.
The evidence speaks for itself.

I pray for Christ's return, because I know that I will live forever with Him.
No more pain and suffering, no more tears, no more guilt, no more shame, no more doubt.

Just love, that's it really, love and joy. Forever and ever.

Come Lord Jesus.