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Travis

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« on: August 18, 2007, 10:38:31 am »

I understand the character of God in punishing those who deny their sinful nature.  Yet I cannot understand why such a punishment would deserve eternity in hell.  Think of a friend of yours that is caring and apologizes when commits an offense.  However, he/she does not believe in God or at least the Christian God.  Do you think that person deserves eternity in hell?


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Eric

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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2007, 01:19:43 am »
In order to try to understand hell I have to look at heaven.  Billy Graham said something like this: "Heaven is a perfect place.  If you were to go there, it would become an imperfect place."

The God of the Bible sees everything as being either holy or unholy. Apart from Jesus, even what we see as being "very good" is seen as unholy by God.  The only holy life that God the Father ever saw on this fallen planet was that of his son Jesus. All else on earth is (and was) unholy apart from Jesus.
Heaven is holy, as are its occupants.  Hell is unholy, as are its occupants. If we unite with Jesus we can enter heaven as Jesus did.  Apart from that we remain unholy in God's sight, and will not enter heaven.  

Even if I (probably a pretty decent guy as people go) receive forgiveness from you, it does not erase my sin, because you do not have the authority to do that for my account.  I cannot do that for myself, either, even by doing a good deed to offset the bad. Only God can erase sin from my record.  And even he can only do that by assuming the burden of it himself, which he did.

Now, here is what I reason accounts for the eternality of hell which you have been questioning:  If evil is an absence of good, then hell can be seen as an absence of heaven.  Heaven is where God is, and hell is where God is not.  If God is absent from hell, then God's grace is absent there as well.  Since it is God's grace that enables us to go to heaven, then it is impossible to go from hell to heaven, by God's grace.  If we don't ask for God's grace while it is available to us, and instead wait until it is not available (by the very nature of God-less hell), then we are up the proverbial creek.

Note that Jesus and the Apostles describe that there are degrees of hellishness in hell, matching the severety of each personal case.  





 

 

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Travis

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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2007, 01:48:56 pm »
"Heaven is holy, as are its occupants.  Hell is unholy, as are its occupants. If we unite with Jesus we can enter heaven as Jesus did.  Apart from that we remain unholy in God's sight, and will not enter heaven."

Yes but I think most people when seeing the true implications of their actions, when they face Jesus, would choose to unite with Jesus.  Yet, Jesus says, "too late".  Would run things this way, seems to contradict every element of our hearts, which coincidently enough is supposed to be made in his image.    


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Eric

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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2007, 01:39:05 am »

Travis wrote:  

Yes but I think most people when seeing the true implications of their actions, when they face Jesus, would choose to unite with Jesus.  Yet, Jesus says, "too late".  Would run things this way, seems to contradict every element of our hearts, which coincidently enough is supposed to be made in his image.    



If our hearts were "made in His image" in such a way that God and human beings could be expected to operate the same way, then human beings would not sin.  The fact that we do sin shows that God and humanity are contradictory in their respective behaviors, and their respective hearts are not alike. Remember that God says, "My ways are not your ways."

God is totally merciful on the basis of Christ's sacrifice.  When God's sacrifice for sin is rejected (and rejection by a "nice guy" through indifference to the gospel is still rejection), then God's mercy is being rejected. Reject God's mercy at your peril, my friend.  When you cross over into God's hands, you meet Him with either your sins or without them. Someone who has chosen to reject God's mercy has chosen to hang on to their sins.

Compared to mankind's past, we live in a place and time where almost nobody dies. People put off repentance for their older years, sinning away their younger years. At the same time, this society is virtually saturated with the Gospel. There are radio channels, TV channels, churches, articles, internet sites, Christian bookstores, and Christians sharing their faith everywhere. The Bible is still the best-selling book.  Bibles are in hotel rooms.

"Jesus Saves," says a huge red neon sign towering over the Hollywood skyline.  It has been saying that for years.  Still, Hollywood remains probably the most Godless, sinful city in the U.S..  

God's anger burns over the widespread rejection of His mercy, and so he gives the rejectors over to their sins and their due punishment.  Saying "But I didn't know I would be punished for my sins, please forgive me" when you are appearing before the God you've stiff-armed all your life is not going to move Him to forgiveness.  

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. "   Hebrews 9:27-28

PS  When I say "you" it is in the generic sense.  I don't know if you are unsaved or saved.                


         


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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2007, 10:49:58 pm »

I asked my grandad this once, He put it in really easy terms, We were giving the opertunity to never have to endure earth, and look what happend, adam n eve, well that made it neccisarry for a middle ground, earth, to teach us, and give us the ability to learn and crituiqe our character, we have only once chance to get it right, We must learn to live and love life, and love everything, because if we dont, and we go to heaven in about a trillion years, we'd b bored, or we'd cause chaos. you would be truely unhappy. Remember eternity sounds small, trillions and trillions of years puts it in perspective. If you cant learn to lose the "dark" as my g-dad says, lose the need for material things, and learn to follow god with your heart, and learn to live by your heart, than in a couple of centuries in heaven.... i think you get the point... You only have once chance to want eternity, and want to live and serve for eternity, if you cant learn to do it effeciently, and cant learn to do it, do you expect to go to heaven? also, heaven and hell are like light and dark, to make grey, god would have to mix himself with the devil, in a crued since of saying it, but, that is already in existance, earth. you do have a middle ground to be forgiven for your mistakes as you said with your friend, its here and now. you have 3 realms so to speak, if you sin on earth, and then die, and you tell god, ill b good... what is he suppost to do? think about it... I usually give more basic views of things, but they work.

I'll take the rapture for 100$ alex.

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Daniel Coe

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« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2008, 11:09:07 pm »
I see it very simply: Sinners are punished in hell for eternity because their offense is against an infinite, eternal God. Sinner's offend God infinitely, so they are punished infinitely, but no more so beyond what God's infinite justice requires.
Igystrvigy

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Kix

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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2008, 12:10:47 pm »
Does it matter what I think? If I were to say "My friend does not deserve Hell." does that mean that God would be wrong just because I didn't like it?

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Robin

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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2009, 09:23:59 pm »

When I do something wrong against someone my intentions are not to sin against God. I definitely don't intend any infinite harm against anyone. I think worshiping a Deity while He is tormenting people with intense pain and suffering forever and ever is sick and demented.


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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2009, 08:39:59 pm »

Robin wrote: When I do something wrong against someone my intentions are not to sin against God. I definitely don't intend any infinite harm against anyone. I think worshiping a Deity while He is tormenting people with intense pain and suffering forever and ever is sick and demented.

You have infinitely rejected Christ for your salvation, the only means by which God can restore a person back to Him. Or God could not have created at all. I am glad He created me in this glorious reality of His.

Hell is an infinite place of eternal separation from God according to your own free-choice to be there. Do you really think you will change your mind when you come to the throne of judgment? I don't think so. If you couldn't be convinced now, what makes you think you will change your mind later? Jesus might say something to you like, "I gave you all the grace I could give and all you had to do was choose me, but you refused me. Now the only reason you want to believe in me is because you don't want to go to hell, not because you love me. I have no more grace for you. All the grace I had was given when you were on earth for so many decades. You belong in hell."

You may not want to harm anyone, whatever you mean by that, but I think you do harm yourself, those around you and God because He loves you and you reject Him, you preach falsely, lead people astray and are like a child who disowns his own parents. What love is this?

The excuse you use, selfishly, is to misrepresent the torment you will undergo for eternity being intense pain and suffering as sick and demented, but this suffering is spiritual and the fire is unlike natural fire which burns out. You are relating earthly things to spiritual things inadequately, pompously and arrogantly in your puny brain. You might think to yourself what it will be like when you go to a certain place on earth, but when you get there it is completely different than your preconceived notions and expectations. How much more so when you arrive in Hell! Should you therefore fault God for using as graphic language as possible to try convince you not to go there? Certainly God can't be blamed for your refusal to receive His mercy.

Is it not more like a person who has to be locked up in jail for life because of their crimes? How much more so for eternity in spiritual matters! God is infinitely greater than you so it is amazing that anyone could even be saved, but He provides that salvation through His only begotten Son. No other name under heaven can one be saved, there is no way to the Father except through the Son and unless you confess Jesus as  your Lord and Savior, He will deny you before His Father in Heaven. It is entirely your free-choice as per Molinism.

There is the principle of age of accountability that all children are going to be saved because they were not cognizant enough yet to make the choice. Even though they are born into sin, they are not condemned because they had not had the full choice afforded to them yet.

I recommend you print this out, pray over it tonight as you go to bed, sleep on it, then when you wake up, read it again intently. You may very well be changed forever if you grant God access past that hardened shell of your soulish outerman into your spirit to quicken it with His life.

Looking forward to hearing the good news from you about your new life: of having received forgiveness for all your sins, died on the cross with Christ (for power over sin and self) and resurrected with Him in your spirit in a resurrection like His which only awaits fulfilment bodily when we whom are saved are all resurrected together.
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Robin

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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2009, 05:07:04 pm »
"Hell is an infinite place of eternal separation from God according to your own free-choice to be there. Do you really think you will change your mind when you come to the throne of judgment? I don't think so. If you couldn't be convinced now, what makes you think you will change your mind later?"


I think anybody would change their mind if they came to God's throneroom and He offered eternal bliss over eternal torment.

Every one of them would change their minds. Everyone.

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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2009, 03:11:06 am »

Robin wrote: I think anybody would change their mind if they came to God's throneroom and He offered eternal bliss over eternal torment.

Every one of them would change their minds. Everyone.

Of course this is contrary to the Bible because if God could convince you at the throne to receive bliss He surely would do so and there would be no need for Hell; therefore, we can only conclude that when the unsaved come before the throne they will still reject the salvation provided by God by what Jesus did on the cross.

Put it this way. The person comes before the throne and God asks them why they did not believe in His only begotten Son. Even Jesus asks why did you not accept me?

In response you will have some excuse I am sure. God will respond to that excuse saying that is a false excuse and further state, Don't you know you are still rejecting Me and My way by making excuses for yourself?

Then He will throw you into the Lake of Fire for all eternity, for the sole reason, that is where you want to go, and you can dwell in your own shack and keep repeating to yourself your excuses if you like and remain in that restricted space for the eternally damned.

I know this is hard for you to understand when it makes perfect sense to Christians, but realize at the very least that some people have to be locked up in jail for their entire lives. In the matters of eternity this principle holds true as well with the major difference being in a man made jail you get to cease to exist, but in eternity you don't get to cease to exist for you are made in God's image, and the image of God can never cease to exist.

Knowing this while still rejecting Christ what excuse do you have?
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Robin

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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2009, 06:37:49 am »

I don't reject Christ. I'm an annihilationist.


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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2009, 01:59:49 pm »
Robin wrote: I don't reject Christ. I'm an annihilationist.

Then you reject Christ so you are going to Hell non-annihilated.
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Robin

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« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2009, 06:23:04 pm »

Like I said I don't reject Christ. For God to torment me forever just because I don't believe in the eternal torment of humans is bizarre.


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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2009, 12:59:48 am »
Robin wrote:

Like I said I don't reject Christ. For God to torment me forever just because I don't believe in the eternal torment of humans is bizarre.


Like I said you do reject Christ, because Christ is not an annihilationist.

You will be eternally separatedfrom God in Hell because you worship a false Christ. The Bible says we shall know them by their fruit and yours is annihilantionism. I would suspect that is not all.

Annihilationism is just bizarre; I don't know your God.

I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.