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Joshua Theobald

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« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2009, 01:28:01 am »

So Parture would you say that the nature of god is to create beings capable of denying him and then punish them for making such a decision?


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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2009, 01:35:54 am »
janalex1903 wrote: Parture would you say that the nature of god is to create beings capable of denying him and then punish them for making such a decision?

If God created beings who were incapable of denying Him, then where is the free will? They would seem to be more just like robots. Therefore, though God wants everyone to be saved and provides more than adequate general and special grace depending on the circumstances, if you choose to reject His salvation, He still has to do the right thing and send you to Hell.
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Joshua Theobald

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« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2009, 08:20:40 am »
At least all robots would go to heaven.  It would appear from your statement that freewill implies that an unknown percentage of individuals will end up in hell.  That seems awful cruel that for you to "freely" choose heaven others must eternally suffer for your "right to choose".
   Second thing, any "grace" any of us human beings is only arbitrary, meaning that grace will be applied independent of freewill.

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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2009, 03:12:09 pm »
janalex1903 wrote:      At least all robots would go to heaven.  It would appear from your statement that freewill implies that an unknown percentage of individuals will end up in hell.  That seems awful cruel that for you to "freely" choose heaven others must eternally suffer for your "right to choose".

But robots don't satisfy God's heart. God wants a relationship with people made in His image with mind, will and emotion and a spirit of God-consciousness having the functions of intuition, communion and conscience. A robot does not have these characteristics so would be no better than creating pieces on a chess board. If nobody could go to Hell because they were robots this destroys true free will.

The question if people can go to Hell has thus been answered. The question if people do go to Hell is another question. Our free will does not mean anyone, or some unknown percentage, has to go to Hell, but that everyone is given the right to salvation. Everyone actually can be saved because God's grace is sufficient to save everyone; so the only reason someone is not saved is because of their own sovereign choice. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

And if you blame God for the fact that some do choose Hell and not salvation, why are you blaming God for that which is not His fault? Would you have God create nobody to satisfy your blaming urges? God will not prevent a person from being created who will receive Him just because there are some people such as yourself who will reject Him. It is sad that the unsaved go to Hell, but they must be placed somewhere in eternity and evil ways will never be reason to prevent God's greatness and glory in what He can accomplish in His own people.

Second thing, any "grace" any of us human beings is only arbitrary, meaning that grace will be applied independent of freewill.

All grace is specific, detailed and full of purpose. Why misreprent God's grace, bear false witness, and accuse God of things which are not His fault but the fault of those who refuse God? God's grace is in full knowledge of man's free will and in response to man's free will. Praise the Lord!
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Joshua Theobald

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« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2009, 05:36:05 pm »
If nobody could go to Hell because they were robots this destroys true free will.

  The question if people can go to Hell has thus been answered. The question if people do go to Hell is another question. Our free will does not mean anyone, or some unknown percentage, has to go to Hell, but that everyone is given the right to salvation.


   How can people go to hell if they have no option not to go to hell.  Let me point out that you say:

You have infinitely rejected Christ for your salvation, the only means by which God can restore a person back to Him.


    If grace cannot be earned or chosen then how does freewill get me to heaven?  I contend that god created these people with the knowledge that they will end up in hell.  If Peter failed by denying christ 3 times, what makes me think that if god knows I will go to hell that I can freely change that?

In the forum on moral arguement on this site you say:

Just realize that Hell is very much needed by God, because it would be evil of God to let you just cease to exist


Eternity of pain or annihilation...hmmm let me think which is less evil.

   If god is the creator of everything then he is responsible for the actions good or bad, that come from such creations.  The fault for evil existing squarely falls on his shoulder.  Having the power to prevent evil and not doing so makes god culpable for the evil that is done.  Lets take it a step further, if god didn't create evil who did?  Please don't say satan unless you are willing to admit that god didn't create him.   My point is this, that a perfect creator doesn't need evil to justify the love of his creations.  I can just as easily choose ice cream over pie for dessert and in no way does evil play a role in that decision, why then must evil play any role in free will?

And if you blame God for the fact that some do choose Hell and not salvation, why are you blaming God for that which is not His fault?


   Why shouldn't I blame god for the folley of his creations?  Is he not perfect, could he have created us able to choose hell and never get there?  he's perfect right?  It could be that god never intended for everyone to go to heaven.  As Macavelli says "absolute power corrupts absolutely".

    Have you ever noticed that
God's greatness and glory in what He can accomplish in His own people.
usually only occurs to opressed hurt disenfranchised people.  Might it be this is the only whay he can get people to care about him and to reach out to him.  It might be that he creates these scenarios, or "allows them to happen" so that someone might care about him.  He did get pissed at the tower of bable and the cooperation without him.  God's glory is always laid out on the table cloth of humanities blood.  Why should we think him any better than a Myan god?


Let me make one last point
Grace defined by the Meridian Webster dictionary states:

unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification


I would argue that asking for gods help constitues merit.  You might consider it granting favor to a loyal subject.

All grace is specific, detailed and full of purpose
 Purpose would constitute merit.  So either your have defined your term "grace" inappropriately or the statement you made is false.  Because the lack of reason, purpose, or necessity is the defintion of arbirtrary is the exact reason I define as grace as only able to be arbitrary.  Am I missing so modality of grace?

I would contend that
God of things which are not His fault but the fault of those who refuse God? God's grace is in full knowledge of man's free will and in response to man's free will. Praise the Lord!

is gods fault because he created those whom refuse him to do so.  If god is the cause of all causes then he must cause everything.


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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2009, 08:16:23 pm »
I like you asking me these questions because after reading the Bible and having a personal relationship with Christ, it is interesting how easy it is to answer your questions by the Holy Spirit indwelling my spirit. How true it is, His yoke is easy.

janalex1903 wrote:
If nobody could go to Hell because they were robots this destroys true free will.

  The question if people can go to Hell has thus been answered. The question if people do go to Hell is another question. Our free will does not mean anyone, or some unknown percentage, has to go to Hell, but that everyone is given the right to salvation.


   How can people go to hell if they have no option not to go to hell.  Let me point out that you say:

You have infinitely rejected Christ for your salvation, the only means by which God can restore a person back to Him.

If you never accept Christ while still in the body of flesh and blood then you have "infinitely rejected Christ for your salvation." You do have the option as was said, "that everyone is given the right to salvation."

    If grace cannot be earned or chosen then how does freewill get me to heaven?  I contend that god created these people with the knowledge that they will end up in hell.  If Peter failed by denying christ 3 times, what makes me think that if god knows I will go to hell that I can freely change that?

The Bible says your choice is not something earned; faith and works are contrasted. Your choice is afforded to you by God to accept or reject God's resistible grace. God actually does create people knowing they will go to Hell, but not because He made them that way, but because He could foresee their free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints. He creates all people righteously. You can't change God, so asking to change God's decision about you is like asking to change God. That's impossible. God leaves it up to you to decide what you want in this life. He merely responds to your free will, letting you have what you want. It is still possible for you to give your life to Christ before you die.


In the forum on moral arguement on this site you say:

Quote
Just realize that Hell is very much needed by God, because it would be evil of God to let you just cease to exist


Eternity of pain or annihilation...hmmm let me think which is less evil.

Giving you awareness of God in your spirit of God-consciousness and self-consciousness in your soul, but then annihilating you is evil, for think of it. You go through your life knowing you are going to just cease to exist, so all your life live by the idea your alleged creator is going to annihilate you at the end of your few decades on earth. Now that is evil!

God values you. You are not instrumental value to Him (some means to an end), but intrinsic value, that is why He made you in His image. He can't make you cease to exist however much you want to have this suicide of your life.

The other mistake you are making is presuming this "pain" in Hell you are going to have to endure for eternity is like something on earth. Realize the spiritual Hell you are going to exist in for eternity is different, for it is an eternal fire which never burns out, whereas the fire on earth is natural and always eventually burns out. Nonetheless, you have a foretaste of Hell even now, and whatever falsities you refuse to let go of, you can cling onto for eternity in Hell if you like. The verdict comes down upon you and you can keep rationalizing yourself all you like. You surely will for eternity, but there you will be in Hell for all eternity. Sounds like insanity on your part! On God's part it sounds like the right solution to your eternal choice.

If god is the creator of everything then he is responsible for the actions good or bad, that come from such creations.  The fault for evil existing squarely falls on his shoulder.  Having the power to prevent evil and not doing so makes god culpable for the evil that is done.  Lets take it a step further, if god didn't create evil who did?  Please don't say satan unless you are willing to admit that god didn't create him.

Being responsible does not mean He causes you to sin; rather, it means God must righteously respond to it and handle it properly. God will contain evil and even use evil for good, but in time, evil will be locked in Hell and the saved will be with Him in the New City and New Earth.

God does prevent evil, but not on your terms such that no evil could ever exist otherwise we are back to robots which is itself evil and does not allow God to commune with man made in His image. In due proper time, that is to say, God's timing according to spiritual reality, not by your puny brain. There is proper cause and effect in nature, just as there is from the fall in disobedience to the buildup of sin from that fall, to its eventualy and final verdict. This shows God's glory, power, righteousness and might. He is in complete control of the whole thing.

Lucifer is the first author of sin. God created him to have the choice. His choice to refuse God is not God's fault. God merely made him the most perfect angel that ever existed, and sad to say, he brought a 1/3 of the angels in rebellion with him. They will never repent, but you yet still may repent to the cross as a helpless sinner. They knew going in if they rebelled it would be for forever, but your rebellion gives you to the end of your life on earth, after which time, the choice is sealed.

My point is this, that a perfect creator doesn't need evil to justify the love of his creations.  I can just as easily choose ice cream over pie for dessert and in no way does evil play a role in that decision, why then must evil play any role in free will?

Of course God doesn't need evil to justify the love of His creation. But if evil is not allowed to exist, then there is no free will. God can have a creation where there is no evil whatsoever; that is not the issue. The issue is the choice of His creation what they want. There are choices in life where they are not sinful or even selfish such as choosing ice cream over pie. But to have only choices which are never selfish or sinful is to make you a robot nonetheless, that is, a robot who can never rebel. This is not what God wants, for then you are not made in God's image to have the choice to rebel.

See how that works? It is most glorious and a much bigger God than the one you propose.

Quote
And if you blame God for the fact that some do choose Hell and not salvation, why are you blaming God for that which is not His fault?


   Why shouldn't I blame god for the folley of his creations?  Is he not perfect, could he have created us able to choose hell and never get there?  he's perfect right?  It could be that god never intended for everyone to go to heaven.  As Macavelli says "absolute power corrupts absolutely".

The folley of His creation rests on His creation, not God, for God has done all He can to convince you to believe in Him; therefore, if you still reject Him, you are to blame, not God. Blame yourself, not God. God could never have created you to have the choice to go to Hell and prevent you from going there if your heart is set on going there as yours is. Otherwise, that is coercion. God doesn't force you, for He is perfect. God desires and intends for everyone to go to Heaven, but if you refuse His desire and intention, He will not be evil and force you into Heaven with those who do love Him, because it would not be loving to let someone like you who belongs in Hell to be with the saved in Heaven. Just as in the world, we don't let criminals out of jail who belong in jail forever, to protect society. One little sin is
   eternal separation from God because God is infinite, but through Christ He redeems mankind back to Himself, whosoever is willing to receive Him. Think of it this way. God knows your condition, so God provides the means, otherwise He would be to blame. The only question then is, do you accept His solution? Though as a born-again believer, I still sin sometimes and am still selfish sometimes, God provides the conduit for me to go through so that I will attain sinless perfection one day after the 1000 years is finished (which has not started yet) for the commencement of the New City and New Earth. He puts me on the correct path. I am on it. I can't come off it. The issue for me then is do I go on that path unto rewards as an overcomer believer or do I lose the reward of reigning during the 1000 years. In the world absolute power corrupts absolutely because man is a sinner, but God is sinlessly perfect in all regards, so His absolute sovereign power over my sovereignty is always righteous and holy and pure. After all He created me. What is true of man is not true of God so catch phrases that apply to man, simply don't apply to God always.

    Have you ever noticed that
Quote
God's greatness and glory in what He can accomplish in His own people.
usually only occurs to opressed hurt disenfranchised people.  Might it be this is the only whay he can get people to care about him and to reach out to him.  It might be that he creates these scenarios, or "allows them to happen" so that someone might care about him.  He did get pissed at the tower of bable and the cooperation without him.  God's glory is always laid out on the table cloth of humanities blood.  Why should we think him any better than a Myan god?

I am not sure I can make that sweeping statement, because I see God's greatness and glory even in non-disenfranchised people. For example, I don't think Bill Gates is born-again, nor Warren Buffet, but don't they give a lot of money away in their charities? Furthermore, there are some wealthy Christians and they do a great many good works as well. However, since God does respond to the meek and lowly, it only stands to reason He is for those the world is not for. You would expect this of a loving, merciful and gracious God. Those who are well off often don't have need for God. How much better if someone had riches and was obedient to God's will as well, but so often you have to be brought to the point of the down trodden appreciate God instead of relying on your flesh. When you are wealthy it is harder to get into Heaven because there is a tendency to depend on the world and not on God. Now this is not the only way to get someone to receive His salvation, but it is a very very effective way. Many people still come to Christ when they have received every benefit of the world as well.

Did you want to do a comparison of the things wrong with the Myan god and why God of the Bible is the real Creator and trumps the Myan god? We can go through 30,000 religions if you like, but for starters I would encourage you to conside this point. A loving God is an accessible God, and today, over 90% of world religions or views comprise just 4 basic types: Christianity, atheism/agnosticism, Islam and Hinduism/Buddhism. Since nature can't cause itself, atheism/agnosticism are false. Since Islam is about a guy in a cave six centuries later who said Jesus didn't die on the cross, Islam is false. And Hinduism and Buddhism are false since reincarnation doesn't promptly and effectively deal with sin since you get endless reincarnations to come back as a human after you became a chicken. Why did your Myan god fall off the radar? Answer that question and then you might find the answer why he is false. It seems to me the Myan god(s) are like Scientology and Gnosticism where it is said some aliens came to seed the planet to create humans. A loving God would never allow anyone but Himself to create beings with self-consciousness and God-consciousness. Furthermore, Christianity is proven by the resurrection of Jesus which only God could do. Whereas Myans have no such proofs and it is just assumed, plus where do their gods come from? Do they even have an uncreated Creator? God of the Bible says there are no gods, there is no God but Him. And there is no better proof than the multiple attestation in various group settings of the resurrection.

Let me make one last point
Grace defined by the Meridian Webster dictionary states:

Quote
unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification


I would argue that asking for gods help constitues merit.  You might consider it granting favor to a loyal subject.

When you get saved you are not asking God for help, but accepting the help He has already accomplished by His ranson paid on the cross almost 2000 years ago. I love how I can see these points showing I am truly born-again, and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, whereas you can't see it at all. You have a spirit of rebellion, so you argue anything and everything no matter how nonsensical it sounds.

"Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2.9). We are "justified by faith in Christ, and not by works: for by works shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2.16). "Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among people, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4.12). Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14.16). "I am the Lord, and there is no other Savior" (Is. 43.11). "I alone am the one who blots out your sins for my own sake" (v.25). When Jesus saw their faith, he said "friend, your sins are forgiven" (Luke 5.20). "They began thinking, 'Who is this man who speaks blasphemy?' Only God can forgive sins." (Luke 5.21)

Quote
All grace is specific, detailed and full of purpose
 Purpose would constitute merit.  So either your have defined your term "grace" inappropriately or the statement you made is false.  Because the lack of reason, purpose, or necessity is the defintion of arbirtrary is the exact reason I define as grace as only able to be arbitrary.  Am I missing so modality of grace?

God's purpose has merit, certainly. Why would God's merit be inappropriate? There is merit in giving you the choice, but your choice is not merited. Your choice is not a work. It is a gift given to you by God. God pleads for your salvation and in order to do so, you must have free will, which is not merit.

Grace is not arbitrary, but specific, detailed and full of purpose. When God gives man special grace to receive the gospel of salvation, your receiving it is not merited by you, but is simply a choice through grace by faith.

You are simply missing the fact that grace is sufficient and your choice is not a merit and your concience realizes this fact, but you are not listening to your own spirit because it is darkened by the sins of the world which aim to smother up your sensitivity to your inner man. That's why you try everything possible to your imagination to remain in disobedience to God through your petty self and natural man.

I would contend that
Quote
God of things which are not His fault but the fault of those who refuse God? God's grace is in full knowledge of man's free will and in response to man's free will. Praise the Lord!

is gods fault because he created those whom refuse him to do so.  If god is the cause of all causes then he must cause everything.

If God creates those who refuse Him is His fault for their choice to refuse Him, then He should not create anyone at all, but that will hardly do either. Ergo, God created people with choice as morally responsible beings.

God is the cause of free-will, then the free-will has the choice on its own and God would not be the cause of the individual choices of sovereign beings such as you and I. I do not pretend to know how God does this other than to give some details a
   bout it as described by Molinism. Likewise, I can't tell you how God intervened and created the first single celled organism or how He started the big bang with the 10 strings in String Theory and how He can place the whole of the data of the universe in that virtually infinitely small space. Molinism to my knowledge is the best explanation for how God gives us free will and lets us have the choice.
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2009, 03:10:58 pm »

The bottome line: Do you accept the God who can predestinate by foreknowing your free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints (osas)? This is the only way God saves. There is no other way. God only saves one way.

I dare say most calvinists are not born-again and almost all naturalists, atheists and agnostics are going to Hell. I always allow for an exception to the rule under rare circumstances since God's mind is way bigger than mine, I may have overlooked some contingencies and God's grace is immense.

As to other religions and world views which profess a God of sorts, if they are antichrist religions (denying the Uncreated Triune God Who is One Being in 3 Persons Whom are distinct but not separate and the deity of Jesus, fullness of the Godhead bodily, the 2nd Person in the Godhead as proven by the death and resurrection of Jesus), they are unsaved as well.

That's an easy call.

If there was some person on a remote island who never heard of the Bible he could still be saved, for if he looked around his people and rejected their god they worship in idols or whatever, but believed in the Creator of the mountains and the stars, surely he would receive Christ if shown the Word of God. Amen. I take this fact into account since God is all-knowing and foresees all things and choices and contingencies, such as if a person were given a certain amount of grace, would they then accept Christ when they didn't otherwise?

Who said it was God who gives enough grace to know He is He, but provides just enough obscurity if you want to reject Him? And if all God needed to do was given you one more piece of evidence for you to believe in Him, He surely would have done so. Of the 13 settings witnessing Jesus resurrected, that is more than enough. Making the Bible the size of an encyclopedia is not realistic, nor just a few books. 66 books is just perfect, so it is all provided by God as effeciently and effectively as possible. Everything is in just the right spot to convey what needs to be said. It's awesome! It is Jesus Christ.

Since 6 is the number of Satan and 6 is the number of man in the Bible as well (through various proofs), God provides 66 books in His Word showing the Redemptive Design that has the power to separate this union of Satan and man.

I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Craig

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« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2009, 06:48:01 pm »

The bottome line: Do you accept the God who can predestinate by foreknowing your free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints (osas)? This is the only way God saves. There is no other way. God only saves one way.

I dare say most calvinists are not born-again and almost all naturalists, atheists and agnostics are going to Hell. I always allow for an exception to the rule under rare circumstances since God's mind is way bigger than mine, I may have overlooked some contingencies and God's grace is immense.

As to other religions and world views which profess a God of sorts, if they are antichrist religions (denying the Uncreated Triune God Who is One Being in 3 Persons Whom are distinct but not separate and the deity of Jesus, fullness of the Godhead bodily, the 2nd Person in the Godhead as proven by the death and resurrection of Jesus), they are unsaved as well.

That's an easy call.

If there was some person on a remote island who never heard of the Bible he could still be saved, for if he looked around his people and rejected their god they worship in idols or whatever, but believed in the Creator of the mountains and the stars, surely he would receive Christ if shown the Word of God. Amen. I take this fact into account since God is all-knowing and foresees all things and choices and contingencies, such as if a person were given a certain amount of grace, would they then accept Christ when they didn't otherwise?

Who said it was God who gives enough grace to know He is He, but provides just enough obscurity if you want to reject Him? And if all God needed to do was given you one more piece of evidence for you to believe in Him, He surely would have done so. Of the 13 settings witnessing Jesus resurrected, that is more than enough. Making the Bible the size of an encyclopedia is not realistic, nor just a few books. 66 books is just perfect, so it is all provided by God as effeciently and effectively as possible. Everything is in just the right spot to convey what needs to be said. It's awesome! It is Jesus Christ.

Since 6 is the number of Satan and 6 is the number of man in the Bible as well (through various proofs), God provides 66 books in His Word showing the Redemptive Design that has the power to separate this union of Satan and man.



Keep it up Parture...I was uneasy about your doctrinal beliefs at first but now I have grown to actually agree with most of them except the (osas) =P





"You'll never stop at one. Ill take you all on!" - Optimus Prime

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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2009, 12:13:41 am »
Craig wrote: Keep it up Parture...I was uneasy about your doctrinal beliefs at first but now I have grown to actually agree with most of them except the (osas) =P

I love it when people agree on the side of truth. What would convince you in OSAS?

What about this verse?

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand" (Matt. 10.27-29).
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Robin

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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2009, 12:59:00 am »
Parture wrote:
Quote from: Robin

Like I said I don't reject Christ. For God to torment me forever just because I don't believe in the eternal torment of humans is bizarre.


Like I said you do reject Christ, because Christ is not an annihilationist.

You will be eternally separatedfrom God in Hell because you worship a false Christ. The Bible says we shall know them by their fruit and yours is annihilantionism. I would suspect that is not all.

Annihilationism is just bizarre; I don't know your God.


The minimum number of doctrines one has to belive in order to be saved today are:

Human depravity
Christs Deity
God's triunity
Christs humanity
God's unity
The necessity of God's grace
The necessity of faith
Christs atoning death
Christs bodily resurrection

(Norman Geisler in Reasons for Faith edited by Geisler and Meister pp. 99-100)

Once again we see how wrong you are.

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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2009, 04:08:41 am »
Robin wrote: The minimum number of doctrines one has to belive in order to be saved today are:

Human depravity
Christs Deity
God's triunity
Christs humanity
God's unity
The necessity of God's grace
The necessity of faith
Christs atoning death
Christs bodily resurrection

(Norman Geisler in Reasons for Faith edited by Geisler and Meister pp. 99-100)

Once again we see how wrong you are.

And non-annihilationism since a loving God does not murder souls. There are false teachers who follow a false Christ, but we shall know them by their fruit.

I am glad you didn't say total depravity, for that false teaching is a sign of unsalvation also. Geisler has made the mistake of calling himself a calvinist in a very limited sense, though technically, he is against all 5 points of calvinism. I think he was just being amicable, when he shouldn't have, because one should never call oneself a calvinist, since all 5 points are deadly false.

It is my belief and by the Holy Spirit, you are not born-again, because you believe in a god that murders souls. Men may hang men, but God never does. God locks them in jail for life, for their choice was an eternal one. The person still lives and can do things there, but it is lacking God's presence which is exactly what that person wanted. If you are saved, then you are deceived and need deliverance from your mistaken assumptions. If year after year you just can't let go of the false teaching of annihilationalism, that would lead a person to believe in you are not born-again, because you have received the evidence of Scripture, could not explain them away, yet still continued to harbor your independency from God.

Do you believe hell is not annihilation of the soul, but eternal suffering, separation and punishment for the unsaved once they are resurrected to the Great White Throne (after the millennial kingdom) to be judged, then cast into the fire (Rev. 19.20, 20.10,15)? "And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire" (v.14) which is hell. Unlike any natural fire that burns out, this one never does. "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone" (14.10), and "they have no rest day nor night" (v.11), for it "will never burn out" (Matt. 25.41). They "will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out" (Is. 66.23).

If you still believe in annihilation after reading these clear verses, I am not sure how you could do that if you were born-again. Jesus spoke about Hell more than anyone else in the Bible. And that significance is most apparent because once you are made in God's image, He can't annihilate His own image.

I think it would help to investigate the assumptions you hold that cause you to believe in annihilationism which goes against these verses. Don't you trust God's Word? Perhaps what is holding you back is preconceived notions about what Hell is like. If you assume it is something that it is not, such that you are forced believe in annihilationism, that doesn't seem reasonable, now, does it?
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Robin

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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2009, 05:30:32 am »

I believe hell was created for Satan and his demons. Satan and his demons will be tormented forever and ever. Human beings are thrown into to the fire of eternal punishment where their worm never dies and the fire will burn forever and ever without being quenched but they (human beings) will eventually be annihilated.

Do not fear them who can kill the body only rather fear Him who can destroy both the soul and body in hell.  Mathew 10:28


Death and hades gave up the dead who were in them and they were judged each one of them......Death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-14


if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment. 2 Peter 2:5-9


just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Jude 7







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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2009, 04:12:02 pm »
Robin wrote: I believe hell was created for Satan and his demons. Satan and his demons will be tormented forever and ever. Human beings are thrown into to the fire of eternal punishment where their worm never dies and the fire will burn forever and ever without being quenched but they (human beings) will eventually be annihilated.

Hell was created by God. The Bible says so. Since the Bible is proven, this is the proof. Whereas you have no proof for your theory. The verses given in the Bible tell us no annihilation, so since you reject God's Word, realize you are not saved. Satan is just a being, he can't create worlds or dimensions such as Hell. Your theory exposes your teaching as false and without basis against the Word of God. This is how I know you were never born-again, so you shall end up in Hell, where the worm never dies, and never be annihilated.

"Do not fear them who can kill the body only rather fear Him who can destroy both the soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10.28).

"Destroy" here means being disciplined, not be annihilated. The physical body killed does not annihilate the soul, since obvioiusly resurrection takes place.

"Death and hades gave up the dead who were in them and they were judged each one of them......Death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire" (Rev. 20.13-14).

Hades and place of death is Sheol, Abraham's bosom or the bad side of Hades, where people are resurrected from. Some will go from there to Heaven, others such as yourself will go to Hell. Some will not even see death before resurrection.

"...If by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment" (2 Pet. 2.5-9).

Extinction on earth does not equate to extinction in eternity. Punishment until the day of judgment does not mean annihilation after the day of judgment. It just indicates your punishment is happening even as we speak in hearing your condemnation for an eternal separation from God. 2 Peter 2 is talking about "false teachers" just like you. They are the unsaved tares trying to look like the saved wheat.

"And God did not spare the ancient world--except for Noah and his family of seven..." (2 Pet. 2.5) Noah is the 8th to be spared, for 8 is the number of resurrection for the saved which does not preclude resurrection of the unsaved which will take place after the 1000 years to Great White Throne then thrown into Hell. That would be weird if the unsaved were resurrrected, judged and then annihilated. Why bring them back to annihilate them? That's just wishful thinking of sinners.

"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).

This fire does not annihilate your soul, but is your eternal punishment.

"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone" (14.10), and "they have no rest day nor night" (v.11), for it "will never burn out" (Matt. 25.41). They "will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out" (Is. 66.23).

You will never die in Hell, nor will you have any rest. How can you have no rest if you cease to exist?

To repeat, "If you still believe in annihilation after reading these clear verses, I am not sure how you could do that if you were born-again. Jesus spoke about Hell more than anyone else in the Bible. And that significance is most apparent because once you are made in God's image, He can't annihilate His own image."
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Joshua Theobald

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« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2009, 01:48:21 am »
Couple of really quick points, why is it evil to destroy a "bad soul"?

once you are made in God's image, He can't annihilate His own image


but then you also say:

"Do not fear them who can kill the body only rather fear Him who can destroy both the soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10.28).


So can he or can't he....seems to me you are saying both.

It also pretty clearly states that god can as robin says that the soul can be destroyed.  (can destroy both the soul and body) seems pretty clear to me.


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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2009, 02:42:28 pm »

janalex1903 wrote: Couple of really quick points, why is it evil to destroy a "bad soul"?

Because that soul is made in God's image with a spirit of God-consciousness and soul of self-consciousness. Once you are aware of your existence and the knowledge that you were created by an infinitely greater Being than you, this intuitive sense is easily corrupted if you engender false thoughts of an evil Creator, for how horrible it would be if you lived in a creator's sick system, and you have to endure it. A loving God would never allow that. With awareness of Him which we all have on some level, God is responsible to that spirit of awareness in us, so that to hurt the heart you by letting you know you will simply cease to exist then nothing really matters and you are faced with a god that is not loving and does not really value you. You are just a means to an end. But things do matter, there are consequences, not just temporary ones, and God does love you. He cherishes you, every last one of us. So God sees you as not instrumental value, but intrinsic value. If you want to be a bad man (call Jesus a liar, lunatic or whatever), God respects your right, but must put you in Hell, for He would go against His own conscience to annihilate you. For you are made in His image, and His image can never cease to exist.

How you respond to Jesus in this life will determine where you spend eternity. Everyone would perish if it were not for one act of God in Christ. Since God is infinitely greater than us, there is no way we can reconcile even one little sin with him. We can't negotiate it, rectify it or resolve it. Only God can do that and does so through His only begotten Son. It is the most obvious thing in the world to me. To you it should be too, unless you self-exalt yourself, are full of the pride of life and vanity of vanities.

Quote
once you are made in God's image, He can't annihilate His own image


but then you also say:

"Do not fear them who can kill the body only rather fear Him who can destroy both the soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10.28).

Destroy doesn't here mean annihilation, but discipline in the lexicon: "render useless...to perish, to be lost, ruined...to lose...metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell...to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin." You can no longer do damage to the elect because you will be eternally separated from them like a prisoner locked in jail for life.

So can he or can't he....seems to me you are saying both.

Most of your arguments are going to require you misread the Bible. Your other kind of false arguments are because of unclear thinking related not specifically to the Bible but in terms of unclear logic or improper emotion or something nefarious in your conscience as it perceives things, for remember, you are still an unregenerate which means indwelling your inner man, that is your spirit, resides the evil spirit and has not been ousted by the Holy Spirit because you are not born-again, still living in your old man. That's why you read the Bible with a darkened mind. Just realize the Bible does not intend it to be read the way you read it.

It also pretty clearly states that god can as robin says that the soul can be destroyed.  (can destroy both the soul and body) seems pretty clear to me.

If you meant an eternal awareness of conscious separation from God in Hell. But that's not what you mean, because you are controlled by your flesh and misread the Bible. This is why God needs you to die on the cross with Him to render the flesh dead.
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.