Because that soul is made in God's image with a spirit of God-consciousness and soul of self-consciousness. Once you are aware of your existence and the knowledge that you were created by an infinitely greater Being than you, this intuitive sense is easily corrupted if you engender false thoughts of an evil Creator, for how horrible it would be if you lived in a creator's sick system, and you have to endure it.
Since God is infinitely greater than us, there is no way we can reconcile even one little sin with him. We can't negotiate it, rectify it or resolve it. Only God can do that and does so through His only begotten Son.
A loving God would never allow that. With awareness of Him which we all have on some level, God is responsible to that spirit of awareness in us, so that to hurt the heart you by letting you know you will simply cease to exist then nothing really matters and you are faced with a god that is not loving and does not really value you
for He would go against His own conscience to annihilate you. For you are made in His image, and His image can never cease to exist.
Most of your arguments are going to require you misread the Bible. Your other kind of false arguments are because of unclear thinking related not specifically to the Bible but in terms of unclear logic or improper emotion or something nefarious in your conscience as it perceives things, for remember, you are still an unregenerate which means indwelling your inner man, that is your spirit, resides the evil spirit and has not been ousted by the Holy Spirit because you are not born-again, still living in your old man. That's why you read the Bible with a darkened mind. Just realize the Bible does not intend it to be read the way you read it.
Quote:Quote:once you are made in God's image, He can't annihilate His own imagebut then you also say:Quote:"Do not fear them who can kill the body only rather fear Him who can destroy both the soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10.28).Destroy doesn't here mean annihilation, but discipline in the lexicon: "render useless...to perish, to be lost, ruined...to lose...metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell...to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin." You can no longer do damage to the elect because you will be eternally separated from them like a prisoner locked in jail for life.
eternal awareness of conscious separation from God in Hell
eternal awareness of conscious separation from God in Hell.
janalex1903 wrote: This is the point I continue to make all the time.
Since we have no choice in how god decides how then does freewill play a part in gods decision? For example, a prisoner on death row asks for a pardon. The person(s) considering a pardon do no do this arbitrarily they have reasons as to why or why not (i.e. Merit). Even the act of asking is an action of merit. As on many forums from this site merit does not grant us this pardon. This implies that our freewill has nothing to do with our eternal predestination.
This seems to be an opinion of yours.
Do you have scripture or some other context to back the claim that god does not destroy souls? What value can a soul have if it exists in a place where god "cannot" or will not look/go to commune with such "non-elected" souls?
Again I think this is pure speculation. I would also argue that being made in his image does not mean I am his image and therefore can be destroyed. Just like a Picasso original would not be damaged by destroying a print of such a painting.
When will you be publishing the interpreted works of "The Bible for Unregenerate Indwelling Sinners"? I would like to know so that I might correctly understand the bible.
If the bible cannot be interpreted by sinners and "enlightened people" like your self have a direct line to heaven, what purpose or need is there for a bible? What could be in a book that the "Holy spirit" couldn't impart to you?
Personally people who revert to personal attacks instead of a logic or fact based argument usually means they have no good refutation. I won't take offense at the personal slams you put in your posts, but I must say that the thinking you exhibit on here resembles many aspects of a cult like following. Please be careful as many of these "group thought" and "higher purpose" groups take advantage of people and repairing your life takes years.
How can you assign 2 meanings to the word destroy in this sentence. It can mean one thing for the body but not the soul? I would like to point out that rendering a soul useless means removing any value. If a soul has been rendered valueless by god why could he then not destroy it? Maybe your version of the bible is clearer than m ine?
1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
2. He was buried.
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
7. The resurrection was the central message.
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
9. The Church was born and grew.
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).
To reiterate, "destroy" doesn't here mean annihilation, but discipline in the lexicon: "render useless...to perish, to be lost, ruined...to lose...metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell...to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin." You can no longer do damage to the elect because you will be eternally separated from them like a prisoner locked in jail for life.
This would apply to both ours souls and bodies. I would argue that the "eternal awareness of conscious" from my body is a false notion.
Craig wrote: Good response Parture. You brought out what seems to be most of the key facts in the Ressurrection apology in Christianity. Have you read Habermas' minimal facts approach? It is quite brilliant!
Craig wrote: Stephen Hawking is a theist now? Or a deist like Flew?I thought he was agnostic.
These prominent scientists and scholars can't deny the evidence.
Theoretical Physicist, Stephen Hawkings said, "It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in just this way except the act of a God who intended to create beings like us."
Dr. Paul Davies (Professor of Natural Philosophy) has moved from atheism to conceding that, "The laws of physics seem themselves to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design." There are over 800 variables making life on another planet in the universe impossible. And he said, "[There] is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all. It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature's numbers to make the universe. The impression of design is overwhelming."
Professor of Astronomy, George Greenstein said, "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency--or rather Agency--must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"
Dr. Arnold Penzias, 1978 Nobel Prize winner in Physics, said, "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing...one with a very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life and one which has an underlying (one might say 'supernatural') plan."
And in just a few hours on the cross on our planet in our solar system in our galaxy among 200 billion galaxies in the universe, Jesus died for our sins to give us eternal life whosoever is willing to receive it.
billclute wrote: Do you have a source/reference for the Hawkings quote? I'd like to use it in some Sunday School classes I teach but I like to have references to back up the quotes.
I think the level of self induced delusion has reached a level at which all logic and reason has left this forum. While I don't mind a debate, one based upon grounds such as yours Parture fail more profoundly the more you post. Such a climate leads to a poor discussion. Good luck with your thread.
janalex1903 wrote: I think the level of self induced delusion has reached a level at which all logic and reason has left this forum. While I don't mind a debate, one based upon grounds such as yours Parture fail more profoundly the more you post. Such a climate leads to a poor discussion. Good luck with your thread.
A reasonable person would conclude you are going to Hell for calling Jesus a liar or whatever other excuse you will try for. How you respond to Him in this life determines how you live out in eternity.
Stephen Hawking, 'A Brief History of Time', p.127
meaninglessly thinking the universe always existed or it just happened all by itself, violating the law of cause and effect and exponential progression of conscience;
despite almost all skeptical scholars saying the disciples were being genuine, the disciples lied and they would go to their deaths as martyrs telling a lie. Pray tell, who does that?;
even though this is as strong a legal case as you can muster in a court room, there is somehow some way some unknown as yet undiscovered natural explanation after almost 2000 years for the bodily resurrection appearances of Jesus Christ;
you can do anything you like, even the most heinous crimes, without any more consequence than your physical, soulical and spiritual death in this life and just cease to exist. So you hope! But this is contrary to what you intuitively know and what your conscience is telling you that no sin goes unpunished, for sin leads to death and the second death, an eternal separation from God; unless, you receive the reconciliation God provides through His only begotten Son who paid for the sins of the whole world, including yours.
A reasonable person would conclude you are going to Hell for calling Jesus a liar or whatever other excuse you will try for. How you respond to Him in this life determines how you live out in eternity.Why not give in to the truth, where the evidence leads you, if you don't know how to fight it anymore other than to not think about it or not respond to it? Amen.
billclute wrote: Parture- Stephen Hawking, 'A Brief History of Time', p.127Thanks but I don't see that quote on page 127 of "A Brief History of Time". Could you double check your source?
Scores and scores of websites confirm it is on page 127 of 'A Brief History of Time', and people have lots to say about it. Maybe you have another version but it is definitely in 'A Brief History of Time', in Chapter 8, 'The Origin and Fate of the Universe'.
janalex1903 wrote: In this forum I never argued there was no god. What I am arguing is that your so called god does not possess a nature of goodness from the perspective of humanity as a whole. What that means is that god can play favorites and can command people to kill women children, ask for human sacrifices, allow the sons of god to bed the daughter of humanity, or any other thing we might consider heinous to us. Essentially its his ball and he can choose to do with it what he wants. From a human perspective, he does not care about everyone, and the atrocities done in gods name abound everywhere.
Not all Atheist follow the same thought processes. First and foremost thinking the universe always existed or that it was made by and uncaused cause is the same thing as saying that god always existed and he created the universe. All of these concepts violate causality. The fact the decision by whomever to imagine a being and a non-place/non-time is a poor way to force this into logic. At the point someone decides to do this, any imaginary concept becomes viable so long as it maintains self consistency. Hence the reason most Christians including WLC miss the point of the spaghetti monster argument. It is a poorly constructed argument but the thought behind it, I find valid.
People do this all the time. I don't think the disciples thought what they were doing was a lie at all, but delusion and a charismatic leader have lead many people to their deaths. We can start as far back as Joan of arc, the civil war, Mayans, Incas, leaders of any of the World wars. We could get specific and talk about Waco, or Jones town. Pick your poison.
Whatever...this doesn't even merit discussion. Should we entertain the quest for Atlantis or the lochness monster? What about UFO's? Seriously move on to a more viable topic.
Can and should are 2 very distinct things, why would i believe that harming other people will bring me joy? Nothing leads to instability more so than violating other people... I'm glad you think atheists are amoral destroyers of humanity....We are not, we just see things differently than you. Yes I've heard all the preaching for the past 30 years, you reminding really isn't impressive nor does it scare me. I will end up where I end up, god already knows that and you nor I will ever have any effect upon changing my predestination. I spent 16 years in Christianity in every possible type of church looking for god, praying, asking for his forgiveness. It all fell on deaf ears or maybe it was pointless to begin with. Either way I could see the charade going on and the lack of response was a quiet deafness. If there was a god who wanted to save some, he does not want me. If the bible is even remotely true someone must have been created to fill, Cain or Lamech shoes for this time, maybe that is my function.
Sorry I'm not one to go quietly in the night, but do not suppose that everyone was created for the purpose of have a choice between heaven and hell. To think that if god exists, and I can force my will over gods, is foolish, but when you lack any alternative you must turn and head into doing the impossible even if that means you will fail.