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Joshua Theobald

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« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2009, 05:46:52 am »
Because that soul is made in God's image with a spirit of God-consciousness and soul of self-consciousness. Once you are aware of your existence and the knowledge that you were created by an infinitely greater Being than you, this intuitive sense is easily corrupted if you engender false thoughts of an evil Creator, for how horrible it would be if you lived in a creator's sick system, and you have to endure it.


This is the point I continue to make all the time.

Since God is infinitely greater than us, there is no way we can reconcile even one little sin with him. We can't negotiate it, rectify it or resolve it. Only God can do that and does so through His only begotten Son.


Since we have no choice in how god decides how then does freewill play a part in gods decision?  For example, a prisoner on death row asks for a pardon.  The person(s) considering a pardon do no do this arbitrarily they have reasons as to why or why not (i.e. Merit).  Even the act of asking is an action of merit. As on many forums from this site merit does not grant us this pardon.  This implies that our freewill has nothing to do with our eternal predestination.

This seems to be an opinion of yours.
A loving God would never allow that. With awareness of Him which we all have on some level, God is responsible to that spirit of awareness in us, so that to hurt the heart you by letting you know you will simply cease to exist then nothing really matters and you are faced with a god that is not loving and does not really value you


    Do you have scripture or some other context to back the claim that god does not destroy souls?  What value can a soul have if it exists in a place where god "cannot" or will not look/go to commune with such "non-elected" souls?

for He would go against His own conscience to annihilate you. For you are made in His image, and His image can never cease to exist.


    Again I think this is pure speculation.  I would also argue that being made in his image does not mean I am his image and therefore can be destroyed.  Just like a Picasso original would not be damaged by destroying a print of such a painting.

    When will you be publishing the interpreted works of "The Bible for Unregenerate Indwelling Sinners"?  I would like to know so that I might correctly understand the bible.

Most of your arguments are going to require you misread the Bible. Your other kind of false arguments are because of unclear thinking related not specifically to the Bible but in terms of unclear logic or improper emotion or something nefarious in your conscience as it perceives things, for remember, you are still an unregenerate which means indwelling your inner man, that is your spirit, resides the evil spirit and has not been ousted by the Holy Spirit because you are not born-again, still living in your old man. That's why you read the Bible with a darkened mind. Just realize the Bible does not intend it to be read the way you read it.


    If the bible cannot be interpreted by sinners and "enlightened people" like your self have a direct line to heaven, what purpose or need is there for a bible?  What could be in a book that the "Holy spirit" couldn't impart to you?

    Personally people who revert to personal attacks instead of a logic or fact based argument usually means they have no good refutation.  I won't take offense at the personal slams you put in your posts, but I must say that the thinking you exhibit on here resembles many aspects of a cult like following.  Please be careful as many of these "group thought" and "higher purpose" groups take advantage of people and repairing your life takes years.




Quote:
Quote:
once you are made in God's image, He can't annihilate His own image


but then you also say:

Quote:
"Do not fear them who can kill the body only rather fear Him who can destroy both the soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10.28).

Destroy doesn't here mean annihilation, but discipline in the lexicon: "render useless...to perish, to be lost, ruined...to lose...metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell...to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin." You can no longer do damage to the elect because you will be eternally separated from them like a prisoner locked in jail for life.


  How can you assign 2 meanings to the word destroy in this sentence.  It can mean one thing for the body but not the soul?  I would like to point out that rendering a soul useless means removing any value.  If a soul has been rendered valueless by god why could he then not destroy it? Maybe your version of the bible is clearer than mine?


eternal awareness of conscious separation from God in Hell


In context of Matt 10.28, If the meaning of destroy according to you means,
eternal awareness of conscious separation from God in Hell.


This would apply to both ours souls and bodies.  I would argue that the "eternal awareness of conscious" from my body is a false notion.


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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2009, 04:45:18 pm »
janalex1903 wrote: This is the point I continue to make all the time.

How so?

Since we have no choice in how god decides how then does freewill play a part in gods decision?  For example, a prisoner on death row asks for a pardon.  The person(s) considering a pardon do no do this arbitrarily they have reasons as to why or why not (i.e. Merit).  Even the act of asking is an action of merit. As on many forums from this site merit does not grant us this pardon.  This implies that our freewill has nothing to do with our eternal predestination.

God decided already by choosing those in His infinite foreknowledge who by their freewill accept His Son. People who come to Christ don't come to Christ by asking, but by grace through faith. The Bible considers this distinct from works or merit. Therefore, our freewill has everything to do with our predestination, because this is the condition God puts forth and requires of us as sovereign freewilled human beings made in His image.

The only reason you are going to Hell is because you are condemned already. In other words, given your admittance you want to remain as you, the verdict is condemnation.

This seems to be an opinion of yours.

Maybe it is your opinion it is an opinion of mine, whereas I believe the evidence is clear that the Creator who is uncreated would be eternally existing, but man was not, so there is an infinite difference. Therefore, even one small iota of disobedience is eternal separation. So if God is a loving God, He would provide the means of reconciliation and this has never been done before in history except through Jesus. And this is proven by His resurrection which no human being has ever been able to find an alternative natural explanation for.

Do you have scripture or some other context to back the claim that god does not destroy souls?  What value can a soul have if it exists in a place where god "cannot" or will not look/go to commune with such "non-elected" souls?

Yes, the verses talking about Hell and which say nobody shall ever die there.

"And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire" (v.14) which is hell. Unlike any natural fire that burns out, this one never does. "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone" (14.10), and "they have no rest day nor night" (v.11), for it "will never burn out" (Matt. 25.41). They "will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out" (Is. 66.23).

How can God commune with someone who doesn't want fellowship with God? Likewise, how can God cause you to cease to exist when He made you in His image? You are a perfect representation of the beauty of God with freewill and all. That would be like, in our human terms of understanding, killing all puppies and dogs, man's best friend.

Again I think this is pure speculation.  I would also argue that being made in his image does not mean I am his image and therefore can be destroyed.  Just like a Picasso original would not be damaged by destroying a print of such a painting.

I think when the Bible says you are made in His image, it means you are made in His image. We are not a print of God, but an image of God, the difference being, an image is a reflection and His reflection is always there because He is always there. Whereas a print is just a copy of God Himself.

It goes contrary to the evidence to believe in annihilationism or suicide of self as the reason was already given, which you could not challenge; that being, once you are aware of God's existence and self, it hurts the heart to know nothing really matters and you will just cease to exist anyway. Furthermore, in this life, lots of sins don't get punished, but with the afterlife it is most assuredly dealt with. This is justice and fairness. Once you know your Creator, He will never let that hurt in your heart exist because He promises resurrection, even for the damned such as yourself, so you are without excuse in rejecting Him. Of course that is the reason, but the proof ultimately is the proof of the resurrection of Jesus which you couldn't find fault with. His resurrection points to everyone's resurrection, even yours.

When will you be publishing the interpreted works of "The Bible for Unregenerate Indwelling Sinners"?  I would like to know so that I might correctly understand the bible.

I am not sure what an unregenerated indwelling sinner is!? You are an unregenerate, a sinner, who has the evil spirit indwelling his spirit. The Bible for you is the 66 books of the Bible. I bet because you are too selfish and self-centered, you will go through the rest of your life never reading it all through from beginning to end slowly and sincerely, conscientiously and thoughtfully. The Bible is the proof itself. I gave you the verses pertaining to your questioning, so the burden of the proof is now on you.

If the bible cannot be interpreted by sinners and "enlightened people" like your self have a direct line to heaven, what purpose or need is there for a bible?  What could be in a book that the "Holy spirit" couldn't impart to you?

The Bible can be understood on some level to help lead you to Christ, for the Bible is the Word of God given to do just that. With each amount of grace, from common grace to special grace, grace abounds, leaving you without excuses. The Holy Spirit imparts all these things, why thing it is some other spirit? All things are possible through Christ.

Personally people who revert to personal attacks instead of a logic or fact based argument usually means they have no good refutation.  I won't take offense at the personal slams you put in your posts, but I must say that the thinking you exhibit on here resembles many aspects of a cult like following.  Please be careful as many of these "group thought" and "higher purpose" groups take advantage of people and repairing your life takes years.

You are aware though the position the Bible takes about your eternal destination right? That's all I am saying. By the proofs given they lead to the finding of your damnation in Hell for all eternity. One should not talk about the evidence and avoid the consequences which you seem to want to do. This reflects the kind of person you want to be. Your choice. How you respond to Jesus in this life determines how you spend eternity. God gives you just enough evidence to know He is real and just enough obscurity to reject Him if you wish in order to preserve authentic genuine freewill.

Think of yourself as in a cult, of a higher purpose group and engaged in atheism group thought to take advantage of people and repairing your life is not something you can do. It will be God's doing when you let go of your independency from Him. What could be the reason for your attitude? Even though you can find nothing in nature that happens all by itself proving the uncreated Creator, you still cling to your selfishness and sin nature and not admitting something is wrong with you because of pride and fear of letting go of control of you. It is no more complicated than that. How can the doctor heal you if you don't even admit you have boils growing on your face? How blind you have become not accepting you are a sinner in need of salvation which only the uncreated Creator can give. How can you heal yourself when you are the cause of the problem? Do you think you are God and you can solve all problems yourself? That takes exceedingly fantastic arrogance! on par with Satan himself.

How can you assign 2 meanings to the word destroy in this sentence.  It can mean one thing for the body but not the soul?  I would like to point out that rendering a soul useless means removing any value.  If a soul has been rendered valueless by god why could he then not destroy it? Maybe your version of the bible is clearer than m
   ine?


There is only one meaning assigned to the word destroy in this sentence.

"Do not fear them who can kill the body only rather fear Him who can destroy both the soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10.28).

Nothing dies in Hell. Physical death is nothing compared to an eternal conscious awareness of separation from God in Hell. It's talking about people who try to kill the body, the very body that is to be resurrected. Turning off your computer does not render it useless, for you can turn it back on. God of the Bible does destroy the body, just not in the way you think, for it is destroyed in Hell in your resurrection. The Bible is clear, nobody dies in Hell where you are going, so don't you think it is disingenuous of you to misread the Bible? Maybe the reason you contradict yourself by misreading clear passages of Scripture talking about no annihilation is because you are not searching God out with all your heart and soul and instead are merely seeking to disprove the Bible come Hell or highwater? So be it! In other words, you are not coming forward with an honest heart.

Does it make more sense Matt. 10.28 would agrees with Rev. 14.10? or that they should contradict each other? If they are reconcilable as orginally intended, then you are simply being dishonest with yourself in misreading the Bible. The issue is not whether the Bible is itself wholly in agreement with itself. The issue is whether you accept it's proof. That's why it is important for you and I to find some common ground to build from. Is there anything you can agree on about these 12 facts that almost all skeptical scholars agree? As well the 4 Step Proof for God?

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.

2. He was buried.

3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.

4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).

5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).

6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.

7. The resurrection was the central message.

8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.

9. The Church was born and grew.

10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.

11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).

12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

To reiterate, "destroy" doesn't here mean annihilation, but discipline in the lexicon: "render useless...to perish, to be lost, ruined...to lose...metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell...to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin." You can no longer do damage to the elect because you will be eternally separated from them like a prisoner locked in jail for life.

This would apply to both ours souls and bodies.  I would argue that the "eternal awareness of conscious" from my body is a false notion.

In Hell, you have a resurrected body. Just as you have awareness of your body now, your soul (mind, will and emotion) now, and your spirit (functions of intuition, communion and conscience) now, so shall you have in Hell. What a deplorable state you are in and the life you want to live separated from God and calling Jesus a liar every day of your life, even for eternity.
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Craig

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« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2009, 04:53:13 pm »
Good response Parture. You brought out what seems to be most of the key facts in the Ressurrection apology in Christianity. Have you read Habermas' minimal facts approach? It is quite brilliant!
"You'll never stop at one. Ill take you all on!" - Optimus Prime

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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2009, 04:57:19 pm »

Craig wrote: Good response Parture. You brought out what seems to be most of the key facts in the Ressurrection apology in Christianity. Have you read Habermas' minimal facts approach? It is quite brilliant!

That's where I got the 12 points from. Habermas is my favorite scholar. From what I understand, Gary is going to be publishing quotes from most skeptical scholars about these 12 items from nearly the last half century. Over 95% of skeptical scholars believe the disciples truly believe they saw Jesus resurrected. Though they have no natural explanation that fits the data.

How many resurrection appearances do you count Craig? I count 13. I was trying to think how to lead Antony Flew to Christ now that he is convinced like Stephen Hawkings that there must be a God. What do you think?
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Craig

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« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2009, 05:41:18 pm »
Stephen Hawking is a theist now? Or a deist like Flew?

I thought he was agnostic.

"You'll never stop at one. Ill take you all on!" - Optimus Prime

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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2009, 01:09:28 am »
Craig wrote: Stephen Hawking is a theist now? Or a deist like Flew?

I thought he was agnostic.

I took his quote he is a deist, not agnostic.

These prominent scientists and scholars can't deny the evidence.

Theoretical Physicist, Stephen Hawkings said, "It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in just this way except the act of a God who intended to create beings like us."

Dr. Paul Davies (Professor of Natural Philosophy) has moved from atheism to conceding that, "The laws of physics seem themselves to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design." There are over 800 variables making life on another planet in the universe impossible. And he said, "[There] is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all. It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature's numbers to make the universe. The impression of design is overwhelming."

Professor of Astronomy, George Greenstein said, "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency--or rather Agency--must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"

Dr. Arnold Penzias, 1978 Nobel Prize winner in Physics, said, "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing...one with a very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life and one which has an underlying (one might say 'supernatural') plan."  

And in just a few hours on the cross on our planet in our solar system in our galaxy among 200 billion galaxies in the universe, Jesus died for our sins to give us eternal life whosoever is willing to receive it.

I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Bill Clute

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« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2009, 02:51:25 pm »
Parture-

Do you have a source/reference for the Hawkings quote?  I'd like to use it in some Sunday School classes I teach but I like to have references to back up the quotes.
Truth is sacred and if you tell the truth too often nobody will believe it.  - G.K. Chesterton
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. - attributed to Joseph Goebbels
To give truth to him who loves it not is only to give him more plentiful mat

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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2009, 03:37:50 pm »
billclute wrote: Do you have a source/reference for the Hawkings quote?  I'd like to use it in some Sunday School classes I teach but I like to have references to back up the quotes.

Stephen Hawking, 'A Brief History of Time', p.127
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Joshua Theobald

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« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2009, 01:59:45 am »

I think the level of self induced delusion has reached a level at which all logic and reason has left this forum.  While I don't mind a debate, one based upon grounds such as yours Parture fail more profoundly the more you post.  Such a climate leads to a poor discussion.  Good luck with your thread.


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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2009, 04:32:31 am »
janalex1903 wrote: I think the level of self induced delusion has reached a level at which all logic and reason has left this forum.  While I don't mind a debate, one based upon grounds such as yours Parture fail more profoundly the more you post.  Such a climate leads to a poor discussion.  Good luck with your thread.

Then why can't you show it? Perhaps your are knowingly projecting your own condition.

Delusion would be to believe something contrary to the evidence, such as:
  • meaninglessly thinking the universe always existed or it just happened all by itself, violating the law of cause and effect and exponential progression of conscience;
  • despite almost all skeptical scholars saying the disciples were being genuine, the disciples lied and they would go to their deaths as martyrs telling a lie. Pray tell, who does that?;
  • even though this is as strong a legal case as you can muster in a court room, there is somehow some way some unknown as yet undiscoverd natural explanation after almost 2000 years for the bodily resurrection appearances of Jesus Christ;
  • you can do anything you like, even the most heinous crimes, without any more consequence than your physical, soulical and spiritual death in this life and just cease to exist. So you hope! But this is contrary to what you intuitively know and what your conscience is telling you that no sin goes unpunished, for sin leads to death and the second death, an eternal separation from God; unless, you receive the reconciliation God provides through His only begotten Son who paid for the sins of the whole world, including yours.

A reasonable person would conclude you are going to Hell for calling Jesus a liar or whatever other excuse you will try for. How you respond to Him in this life determines how you live out in eternity.

Why not give in to the truth, where the evidence leads you, if you don't know how to fight it anymore other than to not think about it or not respond to it? Amen.
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Bill Clute

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« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2009, 11:00:21 am »
Parture-
Stephen Hawking, 'A Brief History of Time', p.127


Thanks but I don't see that quote on page 127 of "A Brief History of Time".  Could you double check your source?
Truth is sacred and if you tell the truth too often nobody will believe it.  - G.K. Chesterton
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. - attributed to Joseph Goebbels
To give truth to him who loves it not is only to give him more plentiful mat

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Joshua Theobald

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« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2009, 04:32:53 pm »
In this forum I never argued there was no god.  What I am arguing is that your so called god does not possess a nature of goodness from the perspective of humanity as a whole.
    What that means is that god can play favorites and can command people to kill women children, ask for human sacrifices, allow the sons of god to bed the daughter of humanity, or any other thing we might consider heinous to us.  Essentially its his ball and he can choose to do with it what he wants.
    From a human perspective, he does not care about everyone, and the atrocities done in gods name abound everywhere.

Now lets get on to your points.

meaninglessly thinking the universe always existed or it just happened all by itself, violating the law of cause and effect and exponential progression of conscience;


 Not all Atheist follow the same thought processes.  First and foremost thinking the universe always existed or that it was made by and uncaused cause is the same thing as saying that god always existed and he created the universe.  All of these concepts violate causality.  The fact the decision by whomever to imagine a being and a non-place/non-time is a poor way to force this into logic.  At the point someone decides to do this, any imaginary concept becomes viable so long as it maintains self consistency.    Hence the reason most Christians including WLC miss the point of the spaghetti monster argument.  It is a poorly constructed argument but the thought behind it, I find valid.

 
despite almost all skeptical scholars saying the disciples were being genuine, the disciples lied and they would go to their deaths as martyrs telling a lie. Pray tell, who does that?;

 People do this all the time.  I don't think the disciples thought what they were doing was a lie at all, but delusion and a charismatic leader have lead many people to their deaths.  We can start as far back as Joan of arc, the civil war, Mayans, Incas, leaders of any of the World wars.  We could get specific and talk about Waco, or Jones town.  Pick your poison.

even though this is as strong a legal case as you can muster in a court room, there is somehow some way some unknown as yet undiscovered natural explanation after almost 2000 years for the bodily resurrection appearances of Jesus Christ;


Whatever...this doesn't even merit discussion.  Should we entertain the quest for Atlantis or the lochness monster?  What about UFO's?  Seriously move on to a more viable topic.

you can do anything you like, even the most heinous crimes, without any more consequence than your physical, soulical and spiritual death in this life and just cease to exist. So you hope! But this is contrary to what you intuitively know and what your conscience is telling you that no sin goes unpunished, for sin leads to death and the second death, an eternal separation from God; unless, you receive the reconciliation God provides through His only begotten Son who paid for the sins of the whole world, including yours.

  Can and should are 2 very distinct things,  why would i believe that harming other people will bring me joy?  Nothing leads to instability more so than violating other people... I'm glad you think atheists are amoral destroyers of humanity....We are not, we just see things differently than you.  Yes I've heard all the preaching for the past 30 years, you reminding really isn't impressive nor does it scare me.  I will end up where I end up, god already knows that and you nor I will ever have any effect upon changing my predestination.  I spent 16 years in Christianity in every possible type of church looking for god, praying, asking for his forgiveness.  It all fell on deaf ears or maybe it was pointless to begin with.  Either way I could see the charade going on and the lack of response was a quiet deafness.  If there was a god who wanted to save some, he does not want me.  If the bible is even remotely true someone must have been created to fill, Cain or Lamech shoes for this time, maybe that is my function.

 
A reasonable person would conclude you are going to Hell for calling Jesus a liar or whatever other excuse you will try for. How you respond to Him in this life determines how you live out in eternity.
Why not give in to the truth, where the evidence leads you, if you don't know how to fight it anymore other than to not think about it or not respond to it? Amen.


Sorry I'm not one to go quietly in the night, but do not suppose that everyone was created for the purpose of have a choice between heaven and hell.  To think that if god exists, and I can force my will over gods, is foolish, but when you lack any alternative you must turn and head into doing the impossible even if that means you will fail.

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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2009, 11:49:01 pm »

billclute wrote: Parture-
Stephen Hawking, 'A Brief History of Time', p.127


Thanks but I don't see that quote on page 127 of "A Brief History of Time".  Could you double check your source?

Scores and scores of websites confirm it is on page 127 of 'A Brief History of Time', and people have lots to say about it. Maybe you have another version but it is definitely in 'A Brief History of Time', in Chapter 8, 'The Origin and Fate of the Universe'.

It's kind of funny because Hawkings is suggesting an uncreated Creator simply using a God of Gaps theory, when most Christian apologists don't use this theory. Just because there is a gap in the data is no reason to suppose God exists. Though I am sure many use this approach it is not one I subscribe to nor should Hawkings. It's like saying, just because Hawkings is not smart enough therefore God must exist. That's illogical for the determining factor then becomes Stephen and not God's proof of Himself such as the fact that nothing in nature happens all by itself, but always has a cause, so the universe must have a cause and can't cause itself, logically speaking.
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

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Troy Brooks

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« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2009, 12:34:36 am »
janalex1903 wrote:      In this forum I never argued there was no god.  What I am arguing is that your so called god does not possess a nature of goodness from the perspective of humanity as a whole.
    What that means is that god can play favorites and can command people to kill women children, ask for human sacrifices, allow the sons of god to bed the daughter of humanity, or any other thing we might consider heinous to us.  Essentially its his ball and he can choose to do with it what he wants.
    From a human perspective, he does not care about everyone, and the atrocities done in gods name abound everywhere.

So are you saying you believe there is an Intelligent Designer? Or are you saying you don't know or possibly could be?

Since God has always shown Himself to be righteous and holy, any bearing false witness against Him can't change that from a sinner accusing Him. That by the way violates Step 3 of the 4 Step Proof for God.

The burden of the proof falls on you since you make various accusations. Just saying so doesn't make it so. Think of this as a court of law and you are trying to make your case. So far, your case would be thrown out because you have no evidence for your accusations.

 Not all Atheist follow the same thought processes.  First and foremost thinking the universe always existed or that it was made by and uncaused cause is the same thing as saying that god always existed and he created the universe.  All of these concepts violate causality.  The fact the decision by whomever to imagine a being and a non-place/non-time is a poor way to force this into logic.  At the point someone decides to do this, any imaginary concept becomes viable so long as it maintains self consistency.    Hence the reason most Christians including WLC miss the point of the spaghetti monster argument.  It is a poorly constructed argument but the thought behind it, I find valid.

Thinking the universe always existed is not the same thing as saying God always existed, because God is not the universe. The only thing that violates causality is saying the universe can happen all by itself when in nature we see cause and effect. Being purely logical, if the universe can't cause itself, there is only one possibility, which is, there must be an uncaused cause Who intelligently designed. Any other idea proves to be just fantasy to get around this fact. Your monster argument fails because we know spaghetti is a natural product, part of nature. Monster's are evil, but the Designer who is always existing would be holy. And the act of flying is part of nature, which itself has a cause. Your argument is destroyed by showing your monster, part of your fantasy life, has a cause which so happens to be your hostility to God.

People do this all the time.  I don't think the disciples thought what they were doing was a lie at all, but delusion and a charismatic leader have lead many people to their deaths.  We can start as far back as Joan of arc, the civil war, Mayans, Incas, leaders of any of the World wars.  We could get specific and talk about Waco, or Jones town.  Pick your poison.

I am glad you admit at the very least they truly believed in what they were doing, but do you also agree they truly believed they saw Jesus resurrected and that is why they set up the churches?

Where do multipe groups in multiple settings under multiple conditions claim they saw the same person physically resurrected who they know died? People have individual hallucinations, but nothing in modern psychology can be found for cases of many same group hallucinations (13 groups in the Bible over 40 days), let alone even one group hallucinations.

So if the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus resurrected and you can't find a natural explanation, let that be the proof Jesus is God.

Whatever...this doesn't even merit discussion.  Should we entertain the quest for Atlantis or the lochness monster?  What about UFO's?  Seriously move on to a more viable topic.

Why leave anything off the table? Why shut your mind down? You want to move on but the very proof of God is in the eyewitness accounts of the resurrected Jesus whom they could touch and talk, the very person they spent three years with in His ministry. My point is this, Christianity is making a claim and proves it by His resurrection, but if you can't find fault with it, then you can't find fault with Christianity on this basis. Furthermore, this claim is different than Atlantis, lochness monster and UFO's, since you have to provide the documentation of claims of seeing them like Christianity does for the resurrection of Jesus. And as for the lochness monster and UFO's these are things seen at a distance so they can easily be explained by natural phenomena. There would need to be archaeological evidence for the city of Atlantis, like we have archaelogical evidence for things in the Bible. Furthermore, there is no religio-historical context as is the case for the 40 authors over 1500 years prophesying the coming Messiah and the New Testament writings.

Can and should are 2 very distinct things,  why would i believe that harming other people will bring me joy?  Nothing leads to instability more so than violating other people... I'm glad you think atheists are amoral destroyers of humanity....We are not, we just see things differently than you.  Yes I've heard all the preaching for the past 30 years, you reminding really isn't impressive nor does it scare me.  I will end up where I end up, god already knows that and you nor I will ever have any effect upon changing my predestination.  I spent 16 years in Christianity in every possible type of church looking for god, praying, asking for his forgiveness.  It all fell on deaf ears or maybe it was pointless to begin with.  Either way I could see the charade going on and the lack of response was a quiet deafness.  If there was a god who wanted to save some, he does not want me.  If the bible is even remotely true someone must have been created to fill, Cain or Lamech shoes for this time, maybe that is my function.

Atheists reject God which is a reflection of their eternal separation from God and selfish independency, despite the evidence that nothing in nature happens all by itself. God predestinates by foreknowing your free-choice, so it all depends on you as sovereign freewilled human being made in His image, otherwise it would be coerced and unloving to condemn you if you didn't have the choice. In the Bible God offers salvation, pleads with all and dies for all, so whosoever is willing can receive Him by the grace of God through faith. God loves you and wants to save you and it hurts His Heart to see you perish. God did not want Cain to do what He did, nor does He want you to call Him a liar. You are a sinner and the god of this world has blinded your mind from receiving the gospel. Your approach was all wrong. You said you were searching for God all these years. I contend that you were not, otherwise, you would have found Him. Therefore, you did not come to Him with an honest heart, so you put up a wall between Him and you. Nobody is to blame here but you. The proof convincts you, because you couldn't find fault for the proof of the resurrection, the proof of the uncreated Creator, yet you still remain as you are. If you were intellectually honest, you will give into this evidence.

Sorry I'm not one to go quietly in the night, but do not suppose that everyone was created for the purpose of have a choice between heaven and hell.  To think that if god exists, and I can force my will over gods, is foolish, but when you lack any alternative you must turn and head into doing the impossible even if that means you will fail.

Your assumptions are what keep you separated from God, but if God says He died for all and pleads with all
   , then that is what He said, and it is merely up to you trust His loving words. You are not forcing your will over God, but complying with the option He gives you. That's what He wants otherwise you are just an automaton and God of the Bible can certainly do better than that.

What we have established here is God has given you the choice and the choice you have employed is to reject God on your unfounded mistaken assumptions. So you misrepresent God of the Bible to reject God of the Bible. Again, this violates Step 3 of the 4 Step Proof for God. You are arguing against some god, but it is not God of the Bible. It is a great sin to bear false witness.
I believe in our being tripartite, osas arminian (molinism), gap restoration, partial rapture and biblocality.

14

Bill Clute

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« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2009, 11:39:25 am »
Parture-

I found the Hawking quote you refer to on page 131.  I wouldn't take that quote, though, to conclude that he is now a believer.  First, the book is 20 years old.  Second, throughout the book he throws out numerous ideas and what the consequences might be from those ideas.  He doesn't necessarily say that he believes in them.  As the link you provided points out, the quote you listed is given in the context that the hot big bang theory is accepted.  He then goes on to give other theories as if he isn't ready to accept the hot big bang theory.  When reading the book I got the impression that he is agnostic with deist leanings.

There may be hope, though.  I have heard Ravi Zacharias say that Hawking has been attending church regularly in Cambridge.  I don't know how old that report is, though.  I had heard that his wife was a Christian but I believe they divorced a year or two ago.  He may have been attending with her and now that they are divorced no longer does...or maybe he has continued.  Who knows?
Truth is sacred and if you tell the truth too often nobody will believe it.  - G.K. Chesterton
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. - attributed to Joseph Goebbels
To give truth to him who loves it not is only to give him more plentiful mat