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mm

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Some qs on the Trinity
« on: March 24, 2008, 11:32:03 am »
Hello,

I have some questions that Ive been struggling with.

1)  How is it that Jesus can be both omniscient and not omniscient at the same time?  I mean I get the 1 essence - 3 persons thing, but if someone has an omnisiscient essence, then they know all dont they?

But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone: Mark 13:32

But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone: Mathew 24:36

2) When Jesus said ''God God why have you forsaken'', was He split from the Father, or from God?  

Thank you & God bless!



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forhisglory

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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2008, 12:26:25 pm »
Great questions traveller. The short answer is that while Jesus is indeed God, He has two natures, a divine nature and a human nature. In His human nature, He had limited knowledge, etc. Check out this article for one perspective:

   http://www.carm.org/diff/Mark13_32.htm

   

   As for question two, don't stake your reputation on this answer, but I would say at that moment He was feeling separation from the Father because He was actually taking upon Himself the sin of the world and was experiencing the separation from the Father that sin causes. Does that make sense?

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mm

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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2008, 03:42:33 pm »
Thanks forhisglory, really appreciate it!

You said: Great questions traveller. The short answer is that while Jesus is indeed God, He has two natures, a divine nature and a human nature. In His human nature, He had limited knowledge, etc. Check out this article for one perspective:
http://www.carm.org/diff/Mark13_32.htm


I read the link, and tbh I'm still confused.  Is it possible for someone to have two contradictory natures at the same time?  

You said: As for question two, don't stake your reputation on this answer, but I would say at that moment He was feeling separation from the Father because He was actually taking upon Himself the sin of the world and was experiencing the separation from the Father that sin causes. Does that make sense?

Yes that makes sense, but is there a reason why he said ''My God'' rather than ''My Father''?  (maybe the translations that I read were wrong?)

thanks again,


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forhisglory

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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2008, 05:46:26 pm »
Hey traveller,

   I totally agree that the hypostatic union, or Christ's two natures in one person, is mind blowing to us. However, I'm glad that God's ways are higher than my ways and that I can't understand every thing about Him. That's not a cop out to dodge the issue, but is simply a fact. With that said, I don't think it's a contradiction for God to add human nature to Himself that culminates in the God-man Jesus. Had God stopped being God and only existed as man, then He'd no longer be God. Then that would be a contradiction to say that a mere man was still God. However to say that God is still God, but added humanity to Himself is not a contradiction. It's a mystery, but not a contradiction. I don't think it's a contradiction because we're not saying Jesus was ONLY a man by nature and He was ONLY God by nature. We're saying He was BOTH God and man by nature because He has two natures. It would be impossible for us to do that, but we're not God. Check out this link as well:

   http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm

   

   As for your second follow up question, I can't say that I can answer that for sure. I'm sure there's a good reason He did that. However, I can say that He called the Father God on more than that one occasion. He said in John 20:17, " Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' " But then in Luke 23:46, before He died on the cross He called the Father Father, and said "Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit." I hope that helps

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bdsimon

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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2008, 12:00:30 pm »
traveller wrote:  I read the link, and tbh I'm still confused.  Is it possible for someone to have two contradictory natures at the same time?

I know that there are different interpretations of this passage, but a straight forward reading of the text below would suggest that we also possess two contradictory natures. Not sure if that helps you any though.

Romans 7:14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.  21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!   So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.


Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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vanhornluke

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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2008, 03:01:37 pm »

Much of the two natures language in Christian theology is confused, so I don't use that language.  Rather, I prefer to say that Jesus was both fully divine (just as divine as the Father) and fully human (just as human as you or me) at the same time.  Does this mean that Jesus was both omniscient and not omniscient at the same time?  No, for non-omniscience is not required to be human.  Thus, even though Jesus was fully human, he was still omniscient.  But then how could he have had a humanlike experience while incarnate?  Good question, and hard to answer.  My preferred suggestion is that much of what Jesus knew he was not consciously aware of (i.e., much of what he knew he knew only subconsciously).  As stated above, much of this is a mystery, but it's not the straightforward contradiction that he both was and was not omniscient.


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ChristianJR4

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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2008, 05:18:06 pm »
Traveller, if your not already aware Dr. Craig has written on this. Please see his article The Birth of God. Also if you have "Philosophical foundations for a Christian World View" the whole of chapter 30, titled "The Incarnation",  is devoted to this issue.

Is it possible for someone to have two contradictory natures at the same time?


Yes, as long as you don't confuse the two natures then it's not contradictory. The contradiction lies in saying that Jesus' divine nature is both human and divine at the same time and in the same sense or vice versa that Jesus' human nature is both human and divine at the same time. But there is nothing contradictory about saying Jesus had both a human and divine nature. Now obviously it's more complicated then that. I'm sure your thinking: "But when you say Jesus, your referring to one of his natures".  The key to understanding this issue logically is by understanding that the human nature and divine nature are united somehow. What are they united in? Well the person (mind) of Jesus. Think of it this way. Jesus' divine nature is comprised of the attributes of deity (Omniscience, Omnipotence etc) and a mind (the mind of Jesus). Jesus' human nature is comprised of the attributes of humanity (physical body and it's other limitations) and a mind.  The uniting takes place with the mind. The mind of the human nature is the same as the mind of the divine nature. This understanding not only resolves a contradiction that may appear here, but it also unites Jesus' person to both natures instead of separating Jesus into two persons (which leads to many other complications).

What about Jesus being limited in knowledge in Mark 13:32? I'll try to provide the short answer but basically you should refer to Craig's article or chapter 30 in his book. It explains this very well. So what's the short answer. Basically it's that Jesus didn't know because the knowledge wasn't in his waking consciouness, but rather in the subliminal self. Think of it like this. Us humans regularly forget things now and then. But that doesn't mean we don't have the knowledge still in our brains. Since Jesus was human, he obviously was subject to human limitations including the limitations of the brain (our minds are expressed through our physical brains). This is my analogy, not Craig's but I think it's a useful one. In sum: Jesus' mind knows all things but since he subjected his mind to the human condition he was like us in that we forget and don't know everything.

I hope this isn't too complicated. But I really suggest you look at Craig's work on this. This is how I came to make sense of this issue by looking at Craig's work on this subject. I strongly suggest you refer there to get a better understanding.


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Daniel Pech

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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2008, 01:38:10 pm »

traveller wrote: How is it that Jesus can be both omniscient and not omniscient at the same time? I mean I get the 1 essence - 3 persons thing, but if someone has an omnisiscient essence, then they know all dont they?

But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone: Mark 13:32

The fact is that Jesus was a man with a Jewish/Shemitic culturo-linguistic habit, rather than with a Greek/Japhethite one. Failing to account for this fact has caused so much doctrinal confusion within Gentile Christianity.

It is only natural to expect that Jesus commonly spoke to his Jewish companions using the cultural jargon of the Jews.

So, in this case in Mark 13, it can be argued that Jesus was speaking with a metaphorical reference to part of the ideal marriage custom of the Jews, in which no one but the father of the groom could decide when the time and conditions were right for the commencement of the marriage. The young groom appreciated his father's wisdom regarding what all was needed to complete the 'marriage hideaway' to which the newlyweds went for the night following the community-supper-and-celebration of the marriage.

In speaking as he did, Jesus' Jewish company would have understood him as giving a profoundly oblique way of saying: 'Not only is the bride and the community not supposed to be forewarned of the exact time, lest the bride herself be tempted to become foolish by that knowledge, but the groom himself does not know; And, since I'm the groom, you'll not get the answer from me."
Believing it to be the most profound game, a man blindly thinks he pits himself against Mother Nature at Checkers, only to find, too late, that She has been playing him at Chess.

Mothers don't go on strike:  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1631277/posts

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Danetone

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Re: Some qs on the Trinity
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2017, 09:31:20 pm »
He was quoting from Psalm 22, which is a Messianic psalm. The first verse of Psalm 22 is "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"
If you read the whole thing, it describes Jesus' whole experience on the cross.

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jayceeii

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Re: Some qs on the Trinity
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2018, 09:42:34 am »
Jesus could best tell us about this, but we can reason that when God Incarnates, He does so as a Person, with the implication that He will need to see His local and world situation, with its people, and with His own sense experiences in memory. Though there may be some advantages to a “stunning revelation” coming into the Lord’s embodied mind seemingly from nowhere, or from far outside His experience, generally the people that would be impressed with this sort of thing, are not worthy companions. They’re making a demand from a low plane for something that will fit their base criteria, whereas the Lord is real and not necessarily interested in meeting these. In general as we see from the Gospels, the words coming through Jesus’ mind bear a different kind of stamp. Sensitive people can see that this is not like how a man (or any created soul), would speak or act.

What you find therefore is that the omniscient Invisible God, places only a tiny fragment of His fuller awareness and knowledge into the mind of the Incarnation. Though the hour of Judgment is certainly known, it is not necessarily beneficial for the Lord to know this. In today’s climate it would result in persecution, for instance, but moreover the date is not too important to the Lord. We have five billion years remaining to us on Earth according to the astronomers, and with these Jesus is concerned, less how it is achieved.

As for 2, the Lord is of one being with the Father, so no split can ever occur. All that happened as Jesus died was the consciousness of the Father that was in that body left it, as would’ve happened at Jesus’ natural death anyway. Jesus likely uttered this statement because He was feeling annoyed He could not continue His ministry, having more to say.