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Timothy Campen

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The Christ Myth Fallacy
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2011, 02:56:40 am »

tcampen wrote:
Quote from: Kam86
Tcampen,
              from reading your posts I suspect that means you believe the odds He never existed were quite low.  I guess my only gripe would be we have early documents recording the ressurection, we dont have any early Christ myth sources
.

Well, if Christ was a myth created sometime after 33AD, it wouldn't make much sense for there to be writings from 33AD about how Christ was a myth would there?  And I wouldn't call the earliest writings about the man Jesus at least a generation after he was said to have lived particularly early.  Furthermore, I wouldn't expect much of anyone to give a rat's a** about Christianity in the 1st Century to take the time to debunk it, especially in writing. And even if such an obscure writing did exist, I wouldn't expect it to survive Theodosius-like sentiments of the Church anyway.

Still, I don't see any particular reason to think the man Jesus who inspired the early christian movement did not exist. I'm no Muslim, but I find it hard to believe Mohammed did not exist. I'm no pagan, but the notion that Caesar crossed the Rubicon does not seem to offend anything about how I know of the world or how people operate.

But I can empathize with individuals who dont believe in a personal God, having a hard time believing the resurrection.  First we would have to mount a convincing case for a personal God( which I believe there is, but I understand opinnions differ on this matter) then we would have to examine the documents with an open mind with respect to miracles or divine interventions.

I agree - a prior theological commitment can be a prerequisit to finding certain claims tenable. I have observed people overwhelmingly find the miracles of their own faith uniquely credible, while the miracles of others' faiths unable to withstand "reasonable" scrutiny.   Perhaps I'm just looking at this coincidence wrong, but I'm not so sure such an open minded approach to examining miracles is even possible, particularly when one's spiritual identity and reason for living depends on the truth of their own miracle claim (and the non-truth of the other guy's).
I raise a pint to WLC and all of you, even if I often disagree.  For I am convinced thoughtful people can disagree without being disagreeable.

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keith eure

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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2011, 03:03:03 am »
Tcampen,
              First, thanks for your response, however one disagreement.  Paul's epistles are generally recognized across the board to have been written 15( evangelical answer) to 25( skeptic answer) years after Jesus' death.  that hardly constitutes a generation.  I'm also not suggesting that we need Christ myth documents prior to written documents of the New Testament, I'm merely asking for some within 500 or even 1000 years.  That isnt nearly the caricature of my argument you created( im not mad by the way lol)  the earliest Christ myth allegations come from a gentleman named baeur(sp?) in the 18th century.

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keith eure

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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2011, 12:42:01 am »
Tcampen,
              I did a little research on the topic to make sure my assertions were correct( admittedly this should have been the other way around lol)
A)There is a consensus in scholarship that Paul's epistles were written between 49- 64 ad.

B)  The earliest writings about the potential of the nonexistence of Jesus were in the late 1790's by two french philosophers, who received some support from Bauer, I believe a German theologian in the early 1800's( not sure whether he was German?), I'm doing this naively from memory of what I just read.
C) There is a virtual consensus in New testament scholarship that Jesus of Nazareth existed as a historical figure, this is not a debate at all.
D) There are absolutely zero pre Christian source for these false parallels of mythological characters.


In conclusion it is safe to say that if there was serious belief that Jesus of Nazareth did not exist serious scholarship would of turned up a little sooner than over 1750 years after the founding of Christianity and the earliest writings about him.  That doesn't strike anyone else as bizarre?  Specifically considering that the earliest writings about  Jesus were in circulation during the lifetime of individuals who were alive to know the truth of the matter.  

The Christ Myth theory is an modern Internet phenomena that is a product of cognitive dissonance.

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brent arnesen

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« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2011, 12:54:13 pm »
Kam86 wrote: A)There is a consensus in scholarship that Paul's epistles were written between 49- 64 ad.
no there isn't, and there is certainly a question as to which were really written by Paul, and there is extreme discussion about what he meant.  Either way, Paul never met Jesus in person - he saw a "vision".  you can't use Paul as a source to establish the reality of Jesus as a real, living breathing person.

B)  The earliest writings about the potential of the nonexistence of Jesus were in the late 1790's by two french philosophers, who received some support from Bauer, I believe a German theologian in the early 1800's( not sure whether he was German?), I'm doing this naively from memory of what I just read.
I went over this and am surprised you still use it.  It took Einstein to come up with RElativity, before that - for millions of years - no one on Earth ever realized it.  Just because the theory is developed late doesn't make it untrue.
Consider how long the Greek Gods were believed to be true?
C) There is a virtual consensus in New testament scholarship that Jesus of Nazareth existed as a historical figure, this is not a debate at all.
So, your defense to the debate about Jesus as a historical person is the assertion that there is no debate?
D) There are absolutely zero pre Christian source for these false parallels of mythological characters.
Untrue again.

The Christ Myth theory is an modern Internet phenomena that is a product of cognitive dissonance.

Consider for a moment that you are the one with cognitive dissonance.  How would you rectify your situation? Read more apologetic authors?
God is not maximally powerful if he lacks the ability to provide the proper evidence of His existence to me.  If I, a mere mortal, can overcome His desire to know me, then He is not God. God the Father? He's not apparent to me!

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brent arnesen

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« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2011, 01:09:23 pm »
Kam86 wrote: Tcampen,
              First, thanks for your response, however one disagreement.  Paul's epistles are generally recognized across the board to have been written 15( evangelical answer) to 25( skeptic answer) years after Jesus' death.  that hardly constitutes a generation.  I'm also not suggesting that we need Christ myth documents prior to written documents of the New Testament, I'm merely asking for some within 500 or even 1000 years.  That isnt nearly the caricature of my argument you created( im not mad by the way lol)  the earliest Christ myth allegations come from a gentleman named baeur(sp?) in the 18th century.

A generation is about 30 years, more or less.
God is not maximally powerful if he lacks the ability to provide the proper evidence of His existence to me.  If I, a mere mortal, can overcome His desire to know me, then He is not God. God the Father? He's not apparent to me!

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brent arnesen

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« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2011, 01:14:30 pm »
Also, Kam86, Jesus, whether he  existed or not is a Myth.  If he was real, he is real and a Myth.  He meets the requirements for being a mythic figure.  Did he walk on water?  Who knows, who cares, the important thing is the meaning that people find in his life and death - his Hero's Journey  - his tale.  The Logos.  The Story.
The meaning you find in the life of Jesus is a myth - it's a structure that is found in every Hero in myth.
This doesn't prove that he didn't exist as is sketched out in Palestinian religious documents, but it is to say that whether you like it or not, Jesus is a myth, and may have actually existed.
BTW, do you believe the Jesus that existed is accurately and perfectly described in the Bible?  If not, which parts do you believe are less credible?
God is not maximally powerful if he lacks the ability to provide the proper evidence of His existence to me.  If I, a mere mortal, can overcome His desire to know me, then He is not God. God the Father? He's not apparent to me!

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keith eure

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« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2011, 01:30:46 pm »
Ooberman I suggest listening to the interview between the infidel guy and Bart erhman again, most of your false assertions get addressed exactly.  I think watching that should open your eyes specifically considering an agnostic with no dog in the fight vehemently disagrees with all of your posturing.

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keith eure

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« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2011, 01:43:37 pm »
Furthermore I'm troubled by your continued reliance on the false analogy about Einstein and theory of relativity.  Advances in technology and experimentation can lead to new scientific discovery,  historical figures are reliant on testimony and testimony can't change, so your presenting a terribly analogy.  Also as I stated previously paul asserts himself to both have had a vision and to have met with Peter and James( eye witness) so his testimony is solid.  You can turn a blind eye and play the were not sure game like Reggie did and you see how silly erhman made him look.

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keith eure

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« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2011, 05:12:45 pm »
Above, the Infidel Guy (Reggie) interviews agnostic Bible scholar Bart Ehrman. One interesting thing about the interview is that it’s clear Reggie has been listening to too many atheist apologists rather than actually becoming a student of history and historical method.

   

   I see this quite often among both skeptics and believers. They familiarize themselves with how apologists for either side use logic and evidence in the context of a very narrow debate about atheism vs. theism, while being relatively oblivious to the larger picture. This is obvious above when, for example, Ehrman has to explain to Reggie that “we have more evidence for Jesus than we have for almost anybody from his time period.”

   

   This focus on Christian apologetics or atheistic apologetics is a real handicap. I realize that for many people the atheism vs. theism debate is but a passing interest. But for those who spend as much time on it as I do, it’s really important to make sure your introduction to logic and epistemology and historical method and philosophy does not come solely to you through the lens of atheism vs. theism. There are bigger lessons to be learned here.

   

   

   With all due respect this really reminds of your approach with respect to this topic matter

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keith eure

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« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2011, 05:14:02 pm »
The above quote was from Luke M over at commonsense atheism

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keith eure

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« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2011, 09:49:58 pm »
Also my statements about the dates of pauls epistles are concurrent with modern new testament scholarship, please if your going to attempt to refute my statement use more than your opinions

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keith eure

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« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2011, 01:08:09 am »
Ooberman I study this stuff for my masters I'm pretty well aware of what the majority of new testament scholarship views as the dates of the Pauline epistles, your opinnion certainly doesn't override there's or even mine in this area.  Your going to have to come harder than saying there isn't with no support.  Furthermore  there are only 2 Pauline epistles that thereis any doubt about authorship and the information compiled by the other 11 accurately portrays the traditional beliefs of Paul, so you are just presenting a red hering by suggesting that a minutiae of scholarship doubt the authorship of 2 or 3 max of his epistles.

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tony torres

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« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2011, 12:39:42 am »

Can someone help me with this? im wrestling with the reliability of the gospels! any help would be greatly appreciated! here's the article that I find alot of truth in...Are the gospel writers the slightest bit reliable? http://www.anatheist.net/articles/christianity/eyewitness-to-jesus-the-gospel-authors/


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keith eure

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« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2011, 08:37:46 pm »
Hey Tony the truth of the matter is the individuals who wrote the Gospels were incredibly accurate in all of their non theological references, that can be compared in the secular world.  Their are some doubts as to who wrote the gospels, but keep in mind they are only from atheists and skeptics in general.  The earliest church traditions have these men ackowledged as the writers and honestly I dont understand why they would name Luke who they knew did not witness Jesus as an author if they were trying to prove some theological point.  Why wouldnt they have just named it after another disciple if they were so concerned with portraying the image of Jesus with built in apologetic.  I just dont understand the logic behind that.  

      I read the article you posted and honestly found nothing interesting in it, I noticed the author conveniently leaves out Paul's epistles which deify Jesus more than any other document in the New testament and by the way were in circulation within 20 years of Jesus life.  the man who wrote the argument was clearly ignorant to all of Paul's writings which do give us a great deal of knowledge about the deity of Jesus.  Obviously his not to versed in scripture.

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Msheekha

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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2011, 05:47:27 pm »
Kam, love your work brother.
The Assyrian Church of the East, the Church of martyrs.