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ElliottNYC

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« on: March 13, 2010, 05:03:49 pm »
C.S. Lewis wrote something I liked:  "The door to hell is always locked from the inside."  

   

   If that's the case, could a person in hell get out?  Unlock the door?  Decide to change?

   

   It seems some people in life are in a self-created hell, they've rejected God and love and friendship and other good things.  But they can still turn around and change if they will it!  Can people in hell decide to turn around?

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Ken Chen

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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2010, 11:17:52 pm »
Can you cite that quote? I'd like to see the context CS Lewis said that in.

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Bill Clute

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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2010, 06:56:58 am »

I wouldn't take the quote too far.  I think he was simply saying that the person responsible for putting someone in "Hell" is the person.

Truth is sacred and if you tell the truth too often nobody will believe it.  - G.K. Chesterton
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. - attributed to Joseph Goebbels
To give truth to him who loves it not is only to give him more plentiful mat

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Joachim Reiß

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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2010, 01:53:38 pm »
As far as I can remember I think it is a quote from "The Problem of Pain".

Bill Craig actually says something similar in the debate "Craig vs. Bradley: How Can a Loving God Send People to Hell?"

However I am not able to reconstruct the whole argument. As far as I can remember I was quite convinced that it is a sound one.

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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2010, 03:14:08 pm »
Quote from: ElliottNYC
C.S. Lewis wrote something I liked:  "The door to hell is always locked from the inside."  

If that's the case, could a person in hell get out?  Unlock the door?  Decide to change?

No, it's locked from the inside--nobody could escape the flames. In Revelation 1:18 we read that only Jesus Christ has the keys of death and Hades(intermediate Hell where all the lost go and remain until the White Throne Judgment) because he conquered death and Hell and resurrected on the third day.

In Luke 16:19-31, we read the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Lazarus was and a beggar who will lay near the Rich Man's gate daily full of sores as the dogs licked him. He logged to eat even the crumbs that fell off the Rich Man's table and was starving to death. On the other hand, the Rich Man lived a lavished life and didn't suffer anything and always had a full stomach.

The name of the Rich Man is unknown, so let us name him, Mosiah. Now
Mosiah was a tax collector(just like Matthew) who will rob poor people what they'd live on because they didn't pay their taxes.

He will go into homes and drive out people and took the bounty. Also, when he finished with his crooked work, will have banquets with kings in the area. Since he was rich, will buy the most expensive wines, foods and also women for entertainment.

One day while in a king's palace, as he was drinking from a golden cup, suddenly he had a heart attack, collapsed on the floor and lay their dead.

The people mourn for his death but what he was about to experience in the afterlife will changed his mind forever.

Ironically, Lazarus also died near his gate and angels came and took him to Abraham's bosom(Paradise) were now he will be in comfort without no suffering.

But Ananias, well, went to Hades and what he saw and felt is a preview for those who died without faith in God in OT and in NT faith in Jesus Christ until the end.

Now in Hades experienced the following things:

1.
Mosiah was tormented because of the intense heat felt all over his body(v.23).
2.
Mosiah found out there was no water and thirsted(v.24).
3.
Mosiah regretted for the life he lived while on earth(v.25).
4.
Mosiah could see Lazarus at Abraham's bosom and it was blocked(v.26).
5.
Mosiah asks Abraham to warn his brothers but were skeptical(v.27-30).

In Mark Jesus says "Where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched"

So, we could add a sixth one,
Mosiah felt worms through out his body literally eating his flesh.

Jesus said "and the fire is not quenched" so that means is happening, right now.

Those are the things people will go through who have denied God, Jesus Christ and the Gospel that would've delivered them from that place.

It seems some people in life are in a self-created hell, they've rejected God and love and friendship and other good things.  But they can still turn around and change if they will it!  Can people in hell decide to turn around?

As we found out with the above, I think not, but there has been cases where people were clinically pronounced dead and experienced Hell. Some of them returned back and were born-again. They gave an account similar like in Luke, how Hell felt like an oven and heard millions of screams and gnashing of teeth. The place is horrible! Also, in pitch darkness were surrounded by evil people who will shout in their face, beat them up, scratch them and bite them without mercy or remorse.

People who believe Hell is a place of fun and excitement and will drink and play pool with their buddies or have sex with beautiful women, have been deceived by the father of lies, Satan.

There's are no friends just an army of enemies, no love but hate, no comfort but torment, no good but pure evil.

That is the reality of Hell where everyone goes who denies Jesus Christ.


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Craig

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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2010, 05:15:47 pm »
I think the doctrine of hell is one of the most misunderstood doctrines in Christianity. I reject the idea of eternal torment or separation of God. I embrace the idea that hell is a holding place for the wicked until the final Great White Throne judgment when they are brought to God for the final sentence of death: death is death. They will be annihilated. This view is not common in Christianity yet because so many people have taught the "eternal hell" view for far too long. Whether its true or not, its now the current accepted tradition and many people's minds are made up.

Eternal life is a gift only God gives..those who have not accepted Christ and believed will experience the death that came from the curse on Adam. Death is not seperation from God, death is the cessation of being. Both physical and spiritual.

a good article to read: http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/6.htm

also I think Greg Boyd embraces this view as well and gives a talk on it...you might can find it on youtube.

Thats my view on it.

edit: heres his sermon on it...pretty good I thought. http://www.whchurch.org/content/page_910.htm
"You'll never stop at one. Ill take you all on!" - Optimus Prime

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Jonathan Kim

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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2010, 05:25:58 pm »
If what Craig says is true, then the most common opposition to the Doctrine of Hell will be solved: "How could God punish one eternally for finite sins?". Another common response was that sin is not finite, because it is done against an infinitely great being (God). However, I found that response to be unconvincing.

I'll look more into your view Craig. Thanks for the links!
The prophecies, the very miracles and proofs of our religion, are not of such a nature that they can be said to be absolutely convincing. But they are also of such a kind that it cannot be said that it is unreasonable to believe them. Thus there is both evidence and obscurity to enlighten some and c

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Craig

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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2010, 05:35:09 pm »
ubi2002 wrote: If what Craig says is true, then the most common opposition to the Doctrine of Hell will be solved: "How could God punish one eternally for finite sins?". Another common response was that sin is not finite, because it is done against an infinitely great being (God). However, I found that response to be unconvincing.

I'll look more into your view Craig. Thanks for the links!


I have answered the "sin is not finite, because its against an eternal being" etc. response with this:

we are not condemned for what we do...we are condemned for who we are. Its not what man does that determines what happens to him in the next life but instead who he is. What he does is a symptom of who he is. Sins do not send us to hell, our lack of life inside will send us there. If my view is correct, we are really spiritually dead and do not have eternal life in us until we accept the gift of eternal life from Jesus..then we will have that life which will last through death. Remember, much of early Christianity was influenced by the Greeks and their philosophy.
"You'll never stop at one. Ill take you all on!" - Optimus Prime

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Jonathan Kim

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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2010, 07:20:13 pm »

Oh, I thought it was more in the lines of this: "Men are punished to their deservings for the finite time in Hell before they are anhilated" Wouldn't this work in your view as well?

The prophecies, the very miracles and proofs of our religion, are not of such a nature that they can be said to be absolutely convincing. But they are also of such a kind that it cannot be said that it is unreasonable to believe them. Thus there is both evidence and obscurity to enlighten some and c

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JohnBee

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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2010, 06:55:05 am »
Wow... it sounds like someone actually read the bible
Having researched the material, I too have come to the same conclusion.

Craig wrote: I think the doctrine of hell is one of the most misunderstood doctrines in Christianity. I reject the idea of eternal torment or separation of God. I embrace the idea that hell is a holding place for the wicked until the final Great White Throne judgment when they are brought to God for the final sentence of death: death is death. They will be annihilated. This view is not common in Christianity yet because so many people have taught the "eternal hell" view for far too long. Whether its true or not, its now the current accepted tradition and many people's minds are made up.

Eternal life is a gift only God gives..those who have not accepted Christ and believed will experience the death that came from the curse on Adam. Death is not seperation from God, death is the cessation of being. Both physical and spiritual.

a good article to read: http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/6.htm

also I think Greg Boyd embraces this view as well and gives a talk on it...you might can find it on youtube.

Thats my view on it.

edit: heres his sermon on it...pretty good I thought. http://www.whchurch.org/content/page_910.htm
N.B. Trolls are neither interested nor committed to the truth!

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Cletus Nze

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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2011, 03:44:16 pm »
ElliottNYC wrote: C.S. Lewis wrote something I liked:  "The door to hell is always locked from the inside."  

If that's the case, could a person in hell get out?  Unlock the door?  Decide to change?

It seems some people in life are in a self-created hell, they've rejected God and love and friendship and other good things.  But they can still turn around and change if they will it!  Can people in hell decide to turn around?


By the time you arrive in Hell you've burned ALL your boats! You've thrown away the key with which you locked the door from the inside! It is far too late for you then!

However, AT ANY TIME BEFORE THAT, it is possible to turn back and avoid Hell. But once there, there is NO WAY BACK! It is the spiritual/psychic equivalent of a black hole!
Pursue Truth - with rigour and vigour!

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Archsage

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« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2011, 06:23:00 pm »
Mind you all, this is nothign but "middle knowledge" (as I believe it's called), information that is ultimately unnecessary for our lives, secular or spiritual. Either way, I think the poster  here, Craig, has said it best in this post:
I have answered the "sin is not finite, because its against an eternal being" etc. response with this:

we  are not condemned for what we do...we are condemned for who we are. Its  not what man does that determines what happens to him in the next life  but instead who he is. What he does is a symptom of who he is. Sins do  not send us to hell, our lack of life inside will send us there. If my  view is correct, we are really spiritually dead and do not have eternal  life in us until we accept the gift of eternal life from Jesus..then we  will have that life which will last through death. Remember, much of  early Christianity was influenced by the Greeks and their philosophy.

This is true. Our actions are only a reflection of our very nature. Remember, it is God who 'knows' and therefore judges the hearts and minds (the very nature) of mankind, while we only really 'know' the actions. (which is why we are warned not to judge people themselves, lest we be judged and naturally be found guilty).

The Nature of mankind is sinful. Which is why, apart from our Christ -- apart from our Savior, we will be found guilty. In fact, there is nothing we alone can do to be innocent, but our faith and trust in God and the Christ will vindicate us. That is why Christ is necessary for salvation. Hell isn't a place for people's actions. It's a place for the very nature of creation.

“It is of dangerous consequence to represent to man how near he is to the level of beasts, without showing him at the same time his greatness. It is likewise dangerous to let him see his greatness without his meanness..."  –Blaise Pascal

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belorg

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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2011, 05:35:37 am »
Archsage wrote:
This is true. Our actions are only a reflection of our very nature. Remember, it is God who 'knows' and therefore judges the hearts and minds (the very nature) of mankind, while we only really 'know' the actions. (which is why we are warned not to judge people themselves, lest we be judged and naturally be found guilty).

The Nature of mankind is sinful. Which is why, apart from our Christ -- apart from our Savior, we will be found guilty.


How did this perfect, all-knowing and all-powerful God manage to mess things up so much?

In fact, there is nothing we alone can do to be innocent, but our faith and trust in God and the Christ will vindicate us. That is why Christ is necessary for salvation. Hell isn't a place for people's actions. It's a place for the very nature of creation.



Sorry, but my 'nature' is such that I cannot want to have trust in God.
So, I am going to burn in hell because God created me for the sole purpose of watching me burn in hell. Nice guy, this God of yours.

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Archsage

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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2011, 06:41:03 pm »
How did this perfect, all-knowing and all-powerful God manage to mess things up so much?

This question of yours comes from a misunderstanding. God did not mess things up -- remember, His is not the only free will in existence.

Sorry, but my 'nature' is such that I cannot want to have trust in God.
So,  I am going to burn in hell because God created me for the sole purpose  of watching me burn in hell. Nice guy, this God of yours.

You are apologizing?

And God did not 'create' you. It's funny, only non-Christians (and those who grew up in a Christian home but never went to the Church, or read a Bible or prayed) would ever say something as foolish as that.
“It is of dangerous consequence to represent to man how near he is to the level of beasts, without showing him at the same time his greatness. It is likewise dangerous to let him see his greatness without his meanness..."  –Blaise Pascal

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belorg

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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2011, 10:16:12 am »

Archsage wrote:
How did this perfect, all-knowing and all-powerful God manage to mess things up so much?

This question of yours comes from a misunderstanding. God did not mess things up -- remember, His is not the only free will in existence.

What does free will have to do with the fact that the nature of mankind is sinful? Do we freely choose to have a sinful nature?



Quote
Sorry, but my 'nature' is such that I cannot want to have trust in God.
So, I am going to burn in hell because God created me for the sole purpose of watching me burn in hell. Nice guy, this God of yours.

You are apologizing?


Yes, I do apologize, because I feel so bad for all the sins I commit. If I could help it, I would do so, but, I can't because I have a sinful nature.

And God did not 'create' you. It's funny, only non-Christians (and those who grew up in a Christian home but never went to the Church, or read a Bible or prayed) would ever say something as foolish as that.


I did grow up a christian, until I was in my twenties went to church every Sunday and I have read the bible.
In fact, I went to church last Tuesday, and the priest claimed that God was the creator of everything. But He probably created everything except me, I was created by the creatures in the Gamma Quandrant.