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Archsage

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« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2011, 02:45:00 pm »
What does free will have to do with the fact that the nature of mankind is sinful? Do we freely choose to have a sinful nature?

If it weren't for the Law, we would not have sin... the Scriptures explained this, you must know about it? Either way, it isn't the sin of the law that condemns us, it's the faith in Christ. We are sinful regardless, yes. But it's the faith in Christ that will wash it all away, and will bring us to God regardless of our nature.

Our nature is sinful. Which is why we tend to will sinful things. But our will is free from any causal restraint -- we don't have to choose sin just because it's a part of our nature. We can, effectively, deny ourselves, pick up our cross daily, and follow Him.
Yes, I do apologize, because I feel so bad for all the sins I commit. If  I could help it, I would do so, but, I can't because I have a sinful  nature.


It's strange that you would apologize for who you are. Most people who apologize tend to seek to change themselves. Else they wouldn't be apologizing! You are a very strange guy, never heard of one like you.

I did grow up a christian, until I was in my twenties went to church every Sunday and I have read the bible.
In  fact, I went to church last Tuesday, and the priest claimed that God  was the creator of everything. But He probably created everything except  me, I was created by the creatures in the Gamma Quandrant
.
See, I knew you were just a little ignorant of what's going on. God hasn't really 'created'/'made' anything (in the way we're using the term) since the 6th "day".  You, and I, and every other human on Earth now, were procreated. were are merely repercussions of Adam. Only Adam and Eve were fashioned (made) by God, and Eve came from Adam and Adam came from the 'dust of the earth'. Neither were created ex-nihilo, but made out of something else.
“It is of dangerous consequence to represent to man how near he is to the level of beasts, without showing him at the same time his greatness. It is likewise dangerous to let him see his greatness without his meanness..."  –Blaise Pascal

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belorg

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« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2011, 10:33:19 am »

Archsage wrote:
What does free will have to do with the fact that the nature of mankind is sinful? Do we freely choose to have a sinful nature?

Our nature is sinful. Which is why we tend to will sinful things. But our will is free from any causal restraint -- we don't have to choose sin just because it's a part of our nature. We can, effectively, deny ourselves, pick up our cross daily, and follow Him.

No, Archsage, we can't do that. At least, maybe you can do that, but I can't. Because it's not in my nature to go against my nature.

Quote
Yes, I do apologize, because I feel so bad for all the sins I commit. If I could help it, I would do so, but, I can't because I have a sinful nature.


It's strange that you would apologize for who you are. Most people who apologize tend to seek to change themselves. Else they wouldn't be apologizing! You are a very strange guy, never heard of one like you.


Oh, but I tend to seek to change myself. In fact, I tried to change myself. But I cannot do it.


See, I knew you were just a little ignorant of what's going on. God hasn't really 'created'/'made' anything (in the way we're using the term) since the 6th "day".  You, and I, and every other human on Earth now, were procreated. we are merely repercussions of Adam. Only Adam and Eve were fashioned (made) by God, and Eve came from Adam and Adam came from the 'dust of the earth'. Neither were created ex-nihilo, but made out of something else.


I see, and the 'something else' was also created out of something else etc. An infinite regress.

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jmischley

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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2011, 11:23:36 am »
Archsage wrote:
See, I knew you were just a little ignorant of what's going on. God hasn't really 'created'/'made' anything (in the way we're using the term) since the 6th "day".  You, and I, and every other human on Earth now, were procreated. were are merely repercussions of Adam. Only Adam and Eve were fashioned (made) by God, and Eve came from Adam and Adam came from the 'dust of the earth'. Neither were created ex-nihilo, but made out of something else.


How do you make sense of Jeremiah 1:5?

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

It seems like at most humans can beget the human animal bodies, but not human rational souls.  How would human souls beget human souls?  Through physical reproduction?  It seems like God at least creates our souls.
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
- Prov 3:5

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Archsage

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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2011, 03:08:06 pm »
No, Archsage, we can't do that. At least, maybe you can do that, but I can't. Because it's not in my nature to go against my nature.


If you cannot deny yourself then you cannot gain salvation:

"23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self?"
- Luke 9:23-25


How do you make sense of Jeremiah 1:5?

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

It  seems like at most humans can beget the human animal bodies, but not  human rational souls.  How would human souls beget human souls?  Through  physical reproduction?  It seems like God at least creates our souls.

I hope I don't have to explain the difference between being 'born of the flesh' and being 'born of the Spirit'.

“It is of dangerous consequence to represent to man how near he is to the level of beasts, without showing him at the same time his greatness. It is likewise dangerous to let him see his greatness without his meanness..."  –Blaise Pascal

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jmischley

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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2011, 03:39:05 pm »

Archsage wrote:

How do you make sense of Jeremiah 1:5?

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

It seems like at most humans can beget the human animal bodies, but not human rational souls.  How would human souls beget human souls?  Through physical reproduction?  It seems like God at least creates our souls.

I hope I don't have to explain the difference between being 'born of the flesh' and being 'born of the Spirit'.



I'm not sure what you're getting at with this.  As I understand it, being born of the flesh refers to our physical birth.  Being born of the spirit refers to "dieing to yourself" and being born anew with an indwelling Holy Spirit, aka being born again.  Are you saying that until we become born again we don't have our own soul?
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
- Prov 3:5

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Archsage

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« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2011, 08:28:09 pm »
I'm not sure what you're getting at  with this.  As I understand it, being born of the flesh refers to our  physical birth.  Being born of the spirit refers to "dieing to yourself"  and being born anew with an indwelling Holy Spirit, aka being born  again.  Are you saying that until we become born again we don't have our  own soul?


No, what I'm saying is that we are not 'of' God, we are of Man (Adam). The Christ was 'of' God, born out of the will of God Himself. The Christ was born sinless. but us? We were not 'made' by God... we were fashioned by the will of the flesh. we are not born 'of' God. We are born in sin and shaped in our iniquities. It is only through Christ that we are born 'of' God:

12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
- John 1:12-13


You are talking about the 'soul', but I don't believe that really means anything. If it weren't for the will of the flesh, of Men, we would not even have a soul -- we would not exist. I think you are misunderstanding the Jeremiah passage to be that God personally created the prophet as he created Adam or Eve. It is more that God is explaining the phenomena of a single unified cell growing into a humanoid shape as His doing -- as He takes credit for all natural phenomena.
“It is of dangerous consequence to represent to man how near he is to the level of beasts, without showing him at the same time his greatness. It is likewise dangerous to let him see his greatness without his meanness..."  –Blaise Pascal

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belorg

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« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2011, 05:49:41 am »

Archsage wrote:
No, Archsage, we can't do that. At least, maybe you can do that, but I can't. Because it's not in my nature to go against my nature.


If you cannot deny yourself then you cannot gain salvation:

"23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self?"
- Luke 9:23-25

"Myself" apparently does not want to be denied, no matter how hard I try.





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Archsage

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« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2011, 06:22:02 pm »
"Myself" apparently does not want to be denied, no matter how hard I try.


Tell me, when you get angry, and you want to hurt somebody, do you always follow through? Or do you deny what is in your heart to do something that you may not "feel" like doing?

Or when you were younger, and your parents to do some chore that you did not want to do, that you did not like to do, didn't you do it anyway? Didn't you deny yourself and do what you would otherwise not do, for the sake of honoring your parent's authority over you?

Or when you really wanted to eat some desert, but you knew that you shouldn't, even though you really, really wanted to, didn't you deny your heart the pleasure?

Or when you, being married or with girlfriend/boyfriend, sees another individual that is insanely attractive, do you not deny the longing, the lust for the other as to stay faithful to your partner?

You act as if 'denying yourself', is some kind of Christian phenomena that is far above you. But I'm sure that you've done it already.


It's not about what "yourself" wants, you still do it. Because there is your "want" and then there is your will.

“It is of dangerous consequence to represent to man how near he is to the level of beasts, without showing him at the same time his greatness. It is likewise dangerous to let him see his greatness without his meanness..."  –Blaise Pascal

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belorg

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« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2011, 02:15:09 am »

Archsage wrote:
"Myself" apparently does not want to be denied, no matter how hard I try.


Tell me, when you get angry, and you want to hurt somebody, do you always follow through? Or do you deny what is in your heart to do something that you may not "feel" like doing?

Or when you were younger, and your parents to do some chore that you did not want to do, that you did not like to do, didn't you do it anyway? Didn't you deny yourself and do what you would otherwise not do, for the sake of honoring your parent's authority over you?

Or when you really wanted to eat some desert, but you knew that you shouldn't, even though you really, really wanted to, didn't you deny your heart the pleasure?

Or when you, being married or with girlfriend/boyfriend, sees another individual that is insanely attractive, do you not deny the longing, the lust for the other as to stay faithful to your partner?

You act as if 'denying yourself', is some kind of Christian phenomena that is far above you. But I'm sure that you've done it already.


It's not about what "yourself" wants, you still do it. Because there is your "want" and then there is your will.


None of these things even suggest that I have ever denied myself. Denying yourself is not some sort of Christian phenomenon, it's a downright contradiction.
What is possible, and that's in fact what you are describing above, is that my 'will' can overrule some other aspect of myself, like (sexual) desire, or anger ...

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Archsage

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« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2011, 06:39:44 am »
Yes, that is called denying yourself -- saying no to what you want, what you think, what you feel.

“It is of dangerous consequence to represent to man how near he is to the level of beasts, without showing him at the same time his greatness. It is likewise dangerous to let him see his greatness without his meanness..."  –Blaise Pascal

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sonny

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« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2011, 08:47:01 am »
Archsage can we go back to this question...
If God made Adam, and he is omniscient, then he knew that we were going to be all sinful and troublesome. Why did he create Adam in the first place? For a bit of fun and conflict?
Or are you saying that he isn't omniscient and he didn't see his invention of free will coming back to bite him?

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belorg

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« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2011, 10:57:47 am »

Archsage wrote: Yes, that is called denying yourself -- saying no to what you want, what you think, what you feel.

That is circular. I feel like I should say no to what I feel, I want to say no to what I want, I think I don't want to think that etc. Or I will something else than what I will.
You can change your mind, but you cannot change yourself.

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jmischley

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« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2011, 03:24:34 pm »
belorg wrote:

Quote from: Archsage
Yes, that is called denying yourself -- saying no to what you want, what you think, what you feel.

That is circular. I feel like I should say no to what I feel, I want to say no to what I want, I think I don't want to think that etc. Or I will something else than what I will.
You can change your mind, but you cannot change yourself.


Hence the depraved state of man without God.  You're right, YOU may not be able to change yourself, and it doesn't much matter, because noone can be good enough to get to Heaven on his own merits.  But you do have a will and a conscience that you may despise your sin and ask Jesus to lead your life.  That is the whole point of Jesus' sacrifice for us.  By His offering, we may accept him, receive the Holy Spirit and eternal life.  And, once you live in the Holy Spirit long enough, your life will be molded to be more like Jesus.  This is the only way to break free from your sinful nature!

See Romans 7:15 into chapter 8.  I'll just paste the chapter 7 verses here for sake of space (from blueletterbible.com):

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.  And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.  As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.  I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.  For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.  For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.  Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.  So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.  For in my inner being I delight in God's law;  but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.  What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?  Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
- Prov 3:5

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Archsage

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« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2011, 03:31:39 pm »
That is circular. I feel like I  should say no to what I feel, I want to say no to what I want, I think I  don't want to think that etc. Or I will something else than what I  will.


Here is the problem with what you just said, you never have feeling A and feeling not-A. For example, you can feel like you want to kill somebody, and feel like you don't want to kill somebody at the same time.

But the feelings both stem from different aspects of your Will. You don't want to kill the guy because he is your friend, but you do want to kill him because he disrespected you. Two aspects of your will are addressed, your will of Love for another, and your will of Pride for yourself (which is why you seek revenge).

The reason why you have a conflict is not because you are about to deny your feelings (which come and go), but because you will end up having to deny your Will in some way.

You should to explore this phenomena further before you continue to argue.

You can change your mind, but you cannot change yourself.

Change yourself? Of course you can't. Nonetheless, you must deny yourself -- it's easier to just say no to your own Will, then to change your Will into something else.
“It is of dangerous consequence to represent to man how near he is to the level of beasts, without showing him at the same time his greatness. It is likewise dangerous to let him see his greatness without his meanness..."  –Blaise Pascal

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jmischley

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« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2011, 03:32:00 pm »

Quote from: Archsage
You are talking about the 'soul', but I don't believe that really means anything. If it weren't for the will of the flesh, of Men, we would not even have a soul -- we would not exist. I think you are misunderstanding the Jeremiah passage to be that God personally created the prophet as he created Adam or Eve. It is more that God is explaining the phenomena of a single unified cell growing into a humanoid shape as His doing -- as He takes credit for all natural phenomena.

Other than the above, I feel like I'm on board with the rest of your response, and I don't see how it conflicts with mine.

But maybe you're right, it does seem like our biggest difference in thought here is about the soul.  What is your take on the soul?  Do we have a soul?  And not just Christians who have accepted the Spirit of Christ and become the Children of God - but even atheists, or babies?  When I say 'soul' I don't mean the Spirit of God within Christians, but a unique individual soul for each human person.
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
- Prov 3:5