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Apologetics and Theology

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depthcharge623

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« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2011, 08:17:55 am »

JohnQuin wrote: When I was a YEC I used to think that it was a good sign that the human condition was slowly degrading.
Oh well so much for that theory.

I think that the number could have been used to signify the importance of individuals.

Since the ages seem to decline post flood event you could speculate that there was a genetic issue with the gene pool being depleted. I think many a biologist might take issue at 900 year old hominids.

It is this kind of issue that make me consider being a generic theist rather than a christian. There just seems to be too much hand waving.


Hahaha, since we're talking about ages and characteristics of men, I mistakingly read that as "Genetic Theism" instead of "Generic Theism" and was about to ask what that was.  Makes more sense now that I read it a second time

Just out of curiosity, what makes a 900 year old hominid any less believable than say Jesus' ressurection?  Or do you believe the latter ito be composed of hand waving too?  

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depthcharge623

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« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2011, 08:24:56 am »
Phanta wrote: Hi, depth.

I believe you. That's fine. Thank you.

Well, personally I am now more conflicted about whether the ages were picked to illustrate a highly ordered universe than when I first posted.

My initial reaction is to state that what you have presented lacks the artfulness that suggests conscious intention that (I think) is present in the formula with which I began this discussion, in particular with the breaking away of Joseph from the pattern, but with his age referencing the prior three as he concludes the book of Genesis. It transcends the realm of simple math into an apparent poetry.

Or not.

The part of me that is now nagging in the direction of it being coincidence due to your presentation is the same part of me that nags when people tell me how their horoscopes turned out. Perfectly.

Phanta


Yes, I see what you mean.  I can't guarantee this, but I think maybe if I wanted to spend the time, I could come up with some model that seems more artistic.  Maybe not though.  

Since you're new to this forum, I thought I would ask what your worldview is?  I actually can't tell based on your approach to this issue.

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Phanta

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« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2011, 09:40:53 am »
My worldview is that I wish to love people and be loved, and that I regret my failures.

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depthcharge623

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« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2011, 12:59:55 pm »

Phanta wrote: My worldview is that I wish to love people and be loved, and that I regret my failures.

I think those would better be described as desires.  A worldview would attempt to establish beliefs which explain why you wish to love people and be loved, what constitutes a "failure" (is it a moral shortcoming?  If so, what is morality and why it so?) and why you regret your "failures."

You could try and exhaustively spell our your entire web of beliefs for me, or you could try and choose a few terms which best describe the lot of them (like atheist, materialist, idealist, pragmatist, deist, theist, Christian, realist, etc).  I think the second method is a bit easier

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Phanta

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« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2011, 01:49:51 pm »
I break from protocols of human exchange when I ask you to accept a deferral in responding to your question. I am in a tender place of struggle to simultaneously transcend baggage and orient myself to the illuminated consideration of ideas. Things are quite a bit darker in the box.

While I am aware that I cannot jump over myself and others as though we do not exist as limited beings, I would love an opportunity to see what is possible when I am given space to explore the ideas I encounter in my studies less hindered by labels and presumptions.

How do you feel about that?

Thank you for considering my request. I understand if this is not an endeavor that this group wishes to accommodate.

Phanta

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wonderer

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« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2011, 01:53:18 pm »

Phanta wrote: I break from protocols of human exchange when I ask you to accept a deferral in responding to your question. I am in a tender place of struggle to simultaneously transcend baggage and orient myself to the illuminated consideration of ideas. Things are quite a bit darker in the box.

While I am aware that I cannot jump over myself and others as though we do not exist as limited beings, I would love an opportunity to see what is possible when I am given space to explore the ideas I encounter in my studies less hindered by labels and presumptions.

How do you feel about that?

Thank you for considering my request. I understand if this is not an endeavor that this group wishes to accommodate.

Phanta

IOW, you are an alabelist.  
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger

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depthcharge623

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« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2011, 01:59:47 pm »

Phanta wrote: I break from protocols of human exchange when I ask you to accept a deferral in responding to your question. I am in a tender place of struggle to simultaneously transcend baggage and orient myself to the illuminated consideration of ideas. Things are quite a bit darker in the box.

While I am aware that I cannot jump over myself and others as though we do not exist as limited beings, I would love an opportunity to see what is possible when I am given space to explore the ideas I encounter in my studies less hindered by labels and presumptions.

How do you feel about that?

Thank you for considering my request. I understand if this is not an endeavor that this group wishes to accommodate.

Phanta


So, then you are undecided and confused, and are here to be exposed to views and the rationale for such views, rather than arguing for or defending certain views?  Did I get it right?

I don't mind that at all.  I sort of gathered that much from what seemed like you "dodging" my initial question.  I just wanted you to be more explicit about it so I could be sure.  

Hope you can learn something here

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Phanta

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« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2011, 02:12:43 pm »
IOW, you are an alabelist.


Hey wonderer. I guess I outed myself.

Labeling and being labeled hasn't been working so well for me lately. It seems to make everyone involved small. As an acquaintance of mine once said, every time I join a group I have to learn to be humble all over again.

So, then you are undecided and confused, and are here to be exposed to  views and the rationale for such views, rather than arguing for or  defending certain views?  Did I get it right?


Yes. Well done.

I don't mind that  at all.  I sort of gathered that much from what seemed like you  "dodging" my initial question.  I just wanted you to be more explicit  about it so I could be sure.


That response emerged from a feeling of vulnerability among strangers. You have put me at ease. Thank you for welcoming my conversation.

Phanta

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Phanta

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« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2011, 02:16:29 pm »
By the way, I also read the term as "genetic theism". chuckle...

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wonderer

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« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2011, 07:56:32 pm »
Phanta wrote:
IOW, you are an alabelist.


Hey wonderer. I guess I outed myself.

Labeling and being labeled hasn't been working so well for me lately. It seems to make everyone involved small. As an acquaintance of mine once said, every time I join a group I have to learn to be humble all over again.

   

   I have a lot of respect for a person being an alabelist, and taking their time in thinking things through until they think they have good reason to use labels to communicate their perspective on things.

   

   These days I'm willing to use a fair number of labels, as a matter of conveience in succinctly communicating my perspective in a broad strokes sort of way.  Such as:

   

   Atheist

   Naturalist

   Materialist

   Physicalist

   Ethical noncognitivist

   

   However, I'm 48 and I took my time and took a hard look at a lot of things in the process of reaching the point where it was of more practical value to use such labels in communicating my perspective than to avoid such labels.

   

   We are all born ignorant, and the world we live in is enormously complex and the amount of human knowledge there is to absorb seems to be growing at an exponential rate. So refraining from committing to a perspective until one has really put time and effort into considering things from a wide variety of perspectives seems emminently reasonable to me.
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger