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Craig vs Krauss

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absolute8888

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Re: Dr. Craig vs. Lawrence Krauss
« Reply #135 on: September 01, 2013, 08:57:53 pm »
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How do you know what false religion is?  You are certain you are right.  A muslim is certain he is right.  Who is to judge which is false?
You misapprehend. The issue is not one of conviction but of evidence. I know the Bible is of God because of all the evidence. A muslim, on the other hand, has no evidence the Qur'an is nothing more than any other ordinary book. Zero, zip, zilch, nada!


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I am open to anything.
Does this include the existence of God because, you say you're agnostic but you act like a militant gnostic atheist.


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Tell me how you feel about people who don't believe what you do.
While there are some who don't possess the ken I've been fortunate to gather for all these years, there are others (perhaps even including you?) who simply refuse to follow the evidence. For those who make this choice I respect it as such, their choice. It has no incumbency on me or my life. After all, I'm just the messenger. My only obligation is to expose you to the truth, not obligate you to accept it.


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You have no idea what your take is on objective morality.
Speak for yourself. I'm doing more than fine on my own, thank you very much.

You are lost mate.  To claim certainty in the existence of God and then certainty in the existence of the Christian God...is proof of just how lost you are.  I don't know what else to say.

I am against people pretending to know things they can't possibly know.  That is it.  And I have explained such many times to you before.

If the evidence of Christianity was as strong as the evidence for electricity, there would not be the kind of debates and issues we all have been having for a long time now.  No reasonable and rational person denies the existence of electricity...therefore you are claiming that no reasonable and rational person denies Christianity.

Arrogance, indoctrination, bias, confusion, and dishonesty at it's finest.

And in terms of morality.  I'm doing just fine myself.  But that wasn't the question.  You continue to dodge the question concerning objective morality.

I have to jump in here because there is some confusion on both sides.

I believe there is a misconception by some Christians and non Christians on how people believe.

Christians dont "believe" because someone showed us one last piece of evidence that finally convinced us this was all true. This isnt Columbo. Its not a detective mission.

If we treat belief in Christ as the collecting of data, piecing together clues, and then finally obtaining just enough to put us over the hump, we leave ourselves open to that one piece of new evidence that debunks our theory.

For instance there is no scale being tipped in favor of the fact that " I am alive"--that "I am Real". You may not be real----I cannot know that with absolute certainty but there are some truths that we can know without doing tests.

What the christian poster(above), may not not fully understand is that God has placed Christ as a fact in his mind. It cannot be unbelieved. It is as solid as the fact that is in our minds that "I am alive".

We dont pray to a God who "might" be there. The only point that this exists is when a person first turns to God in the name of Christ. This is the leap of faith. For most it is not a leap that God exists. Every single culture that has ever existed throughout history has seen using logic and reasoning that we could not be here without a creator. The leap is---is Christ who he said he was? When we ask that and pray that if its true we will follow him---God puts that truth--as FACT--in the human mind. It cannot be unknown. No matter how many things have gone on in my life---this truth has never wavered because its even more solid as a piece of information in my mind as my own name. After all, my parents could have lied to me about my name--but Jesus Christ was exactly who he said he was.

This cannot be based on a detective mission. No fact is as solid as this in my mind. What philosophy and reasoning show is WHY has the overwhelming majority of humans believed in a higher power? Is it because they didnt understand lightening as atheists would childishly believe? Of course not..it is because they make the logical conclusions, almost instantly, that Craig points out in his lectures.

Of all the people who I've talked to that dont believe in God, not one has ever answered yes to this question.....

Have you ever thought to ask God Himself what the truth is?

They search for clues, have arguments with themselves, debating back and forth pros and cons, but never ask God. But why? Well, its usually because they think they're smarter than the supposed God of this world. In other words, "I can think of a better plan than this--so there cant be a God to ask anyway."

Dont you think that would block communication with God?  :) Think about it..."I dont understand the plan...so there's no God." Isnt one of the definitions of God that he is infinitely smarter than us? Does a dog ever realize why we sent him outside to poop? You see suffering and think..I've got better plan. Doesn't a dog think he has a better plan than us too? Haven't we seen Man's grand plan enough to know we dont have clue?

It takes humility to admit we might not be as wise as we think we are. It takes a child like attitude to say, "God...help me understand. If you are real, help my mind understand it." If you drop your shields He will put it as a fact in your head. Its not about clues or data.

Yes, there is testimony. People have died for it instead of suicide bombed for it. And yes, there are more copies of the Bible on earth than any other book. But ask God himself. That is the answer-- hear the testimony and ask God. No clever arguments will achieve what only God can do.

The vehicle God choose was not to put a burden on you---but HIM. We cant be perfect because have the freewill to think anything we want..(so its possible to choose.) We deserve to be punished for our behavior but God stepped in and took that punishment for us. All he asks is you accept that. His plan is like nothing man would think up. Man would make it hard..God made it as easy as it could be. Accept his offer and live forever. I say, where do I sign up? Man's idea would be to go on CNN. But God reveals the true state of a human heart by requiring child-like faith. Remember, they killed Christ when they saw him and all the great things he did.

So seeing makes no difference because God knows who you are regardless of what you see.

The atheist search for "Proof" is not found in data, but in asking God about Christ. God transforms the mind...not data. It must be accepted that the appeal to authority goes to God. It is Normal to believe in God. The question isnt if there is a God--but who is He? Arguing against his existence is abnormal. Usually  reasoned by those who whose brains cannot detect purpose. When you look at all the things you must deny to sustain your delusion--freewill, beauty, morals, obvious design, something from nothing etc---it becomes a task for fools grasping at straws. Atheism has become so embarrassing at this point its a wonder why they just dont throw up their hands and say..."just because". Thats far more acceptable than these terrible arguments.

 This isnt about being smart. I have an IQ that is in the top 5% in the country. Paul, who also was a hater of the truth, was very intelligent, but considered it worthless in the end.

1 Corinthians 1

 18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

19For it is written:
   "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
      the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[c]

 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

1 Corinthians 2

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

His point is you can research all the live long day and it will all be just text on a page unless God reveals it to you. So now that you've done your research, ask God for the truth. Lower your shields

I  point out the sheer ignorance of the idea that scientists are the pinnacle of human intelligence. High IQ's permeate humanity throughout every walk of life. For scientists to claim They are the pinnacle of human wisdom is laughable. It is one thing to be able calculate and quite another to have wisdom. In many cases its the almost autistic ability to calculate above the norm that also causes the very social dysfunction of compulsively only seeing the tree and completely missing the forest that plagues many in the fields of origins.

They are not the pinnacle of human wisdom--they are simply one segment of employment in our world. Its an occupation, not a high priest of the universe.

So just to sum up ...These arguments for the existence of God are for the abnormal thinker only.. No normal thinker needs convincing as he must deny that he is even real person with free opinions.. Christ cannot be known as fact through data alone but real Christians do know him as fact through the mind of God.


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Maxximiliann

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Re: Dr. Craig vs. Lawrence Krauss
« Reply #136 on: September 01, 2013, 09:26:01 pm »
What the christian poster(above), may not not fully understand is that God has placed Christ as a fact in his mind. It cannot be unbelieved.

You misapprehend. Allow me to clarify my position with an example from the past. The residents of the ancient city of Beroea, for example, were praised and set as an example for all of us because, when Paul and Silas went to teach them truth, these 'carefully examined the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.' (Acts 17:11) Did Paul criticize them because they tried to reason things out? Did he tell them that their investigation was unnecessary because absolute truth was simply a matter of credulity? Not at all. In fact, he encouraged them to make sense of things and wasn't afraid of their scrutiny of what he was teaching them. Why? Because "God is not a God of confusion" and so, they had to 'love Jehovah with their whole mind'. (1 Corinthians 14:33;Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27)

In fact, 1st century Christians were admonished to understand, to “thoroughly [] grasp mentally [] what is the breadth and length and height and depth and to know [] that [they] may be filled with all the fullness that God gives.” (Ephesians 3:18,19) (Brackets mine.)

It was by heeding this admonishment that I came to know the truth about Jehovah God and his purposes.
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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shostakovich

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Re: Dr. Craig vs. Lawrence Krauss
« Reply #137 on: September 07, 2013, 08:37:22 pm »
I tried to listen to the debate, but got only some Asian characters on screen.  Nothing lost, as Krauss is not a philosopher; he's an atheist-scientist with no appreciation for philosophy, or true philosophical debate--at which he knows he's like a child-amateur chess player up against a Grandmaster.  No contest.  I'm not sure if he did, but Craig could have brought up something relevant, this being the title of Krauss's book "A Universe from Nothing," with the subtitle, "Why there is a universe and not nothing."  The subtitle purports to answer Leibnitz's question: "Why is there something rather than nothing?"  In a forum in Davos, debating whether or not religion is outdated in the 21st century, Krauss states that the question of the why is a "Stupid Question," and something that a child will ask, to which an adult would reply, "okay time to go to bed, now."  It is ironic that Krauss however has claimed to answer what he thinks is a stupid question.  He's been caught in an obvious self-contradiction, and it exposes his ignorance, and inability to reason on any truly serious level.

The multi-universe theory allows us to postulate a billion universes in which there are only pink elephants all of which popped into existence instantaneously out of nothing, uncaused, and anything else one can imagine, no matter how preposterous.  But atheists, apparently, do not have the intelligence to be able to see the fallaciousness of such useless conjectures.

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gematria

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Re: Dr. Craig vs. Lawrence Krauss
« Reply #138 on: September 23, 2013, 04:39:43 am »
You may take Krauss and his arguments and distort and twist the context as many times as you want. it does not, however, come anywhere near the deceitfulness and snake like manipulation that WLC performs on a weekly basis. Here is a beautiful example of that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgxUTJmcWsM

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Dr. Craig vs. Lawrence Krauss
« Reply #139 on: September 24, 2013, 11:22:32 am »
You may take Krauss and his arguments and distort and twist the context as many times as you want. it does not, however, come anywhere near the deceitfulness and snake like manipulation that WLC performs on a weekly basis. Here is a beautiful example of that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgxUTJmcWsM

No distortion required. He very much wants us to believe that nothing, no state of affairs, no relations, no potentialities, no properties, that is to say, not anything, is something after all. Propaganda at its finest ...
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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Way

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Re: Dr. Craig vs. Lawrence Krauss
« Reply #140 on: January 16, 2014, 06:29:17 pm »
"Have you ever thought to ask God Himself what the truth is?"

An atheist would answer: "When I ask this question, there is no one who answers. Thus I assume that God is ignoring me or he does not exist or is irrelevant to me as I don't feel his presence."

A Christian retorts: "You are wrong! It is because of your ignorance, blindness and stupidity that you don't see God proving himself to you all the time through metaphysical contact! When I ask this question, I can feel He is answering me! This is my personal and ultimate evidence of God! If you start to believe in God, by opening yourself to Him or actively reaching out for Him, then you will see evidence of His existence in pretty much everything and everywhere! Then you will wonder yourself, why others can't see this simple truth!"

The atheist: "You are just making up the idea of God by giving him a definition, because you need one to feel good about yourself and your weaknesses. In an act of self-deception, you start to believe in something of your own creation that defines the image of perfection as an ideal role-model, which you yourself fail to be. Then you start to tune and to distort your perceived reality into fitting your personal concept of God. Your evidence proves nothing but your own feeble feelings. I would rather admit that I don't know anything than believing in my own dream. There is no point in discussing with people living in their own world of delusions."

Christian: "You are stupid, arrogant and blind!"

Atheist: "You are stupid, pathetic and delusional!"

This pretty much sums up the whole discussion (,or rather how it should not be, but eventually becomes nevertheless).
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 01:26:37 am by Wey »
Reason and emotion are what make us human. But reason without emotion is cruelty, emotion without reason is stupidity.

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pat1911

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Re: Dr. Craig vs. Lawrence Krauss
« Reply #141 on: January 23, 2014, 01:25:39 pm »
Dr. Krauss lost me with "It depends on what you mean by 'nothing'". He conceded before he even got started. It reminds me of  the Bill Clinton quote "It depends on what your definition of 'is' is."
Depends on what you mean by nothing is plain, flat absurd. Nothing is not anything at all. No particles, no movement, no properties, no metaphysics.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Dr. Craig vs. Lawrence Krauss
« Reply #142 on: January 24, 2014, 11:05:37 am »
Dr. Krauss lost me with "It depends on what you mean by 'nothing'". He conceded before he even got started. It reminds me of  the Bill Clinton quote "It depends on what your definition of 'is' is."
Depends on what you mean by nothing is plain, flat absurd. Nothing is not anything at all. No particles, no movement, no properties, no metaphysics.
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17