Nature of God

Nature of God

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Tetelestai

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There is no free will !
« Reply #90 on: October 24, 2011, 06:59:56 am »
Havn't been here for a while but I am comfortable with what silentmatt has written so far. Like him, I think I can agree with that stated in his previous post. The point being that God can still communicate (omnipotent) but he (voluntarily) does not so as not to violate free will. That way all three attributes are still preserved.

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Killjoy

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« Reply #91 on: October 24, 2011, 07:49:17 am »

Tetelestai wrote: Havn't been here for a while but I am comfortable with what silentmatt has written so far. Like him, I think I can agree with that stated in his previous post. The point being that God can still communicate (omnipotent) but he (voluntarily) does not so as not to violate free will. That way all three attributes are still preserved.

So all three attributes are preserved as long as one of them is given up to avoid violating another one. I guess I can live with that too. A small contradiction is better than a big one, I suppose - like being a little bit pregnant, perhaps ...

I am an atheist - just so you know

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Nicholas Olsen

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« Reply #92 on: October 24, 2011, 10:50:36 pm »
God doesn't give up an attribute to preserve others. A combination of absolute traits can have complex intricacies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyb7SQefYMA

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Tetelestai

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« Reply #93 on: October 25, 2011, 05:21:44 am »
^^ What he said ^^

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WSCRguitarman

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« Reply #94 on: October 26, 2011, 10:46:46 pm »
You didn't answer my question. How can you prove free will without God? It's just an assumption. You can't just say "I have free will" for your argument to work you have to prove it is what it is... the thing about locking someone up is a moral argument dealing with God's sovereignty. Completely different topic that deals with the Bible's truth, not the existence of God. For God must exist to argue about His sovereignty. Your right though. A blind man has the will to see but that doesn't mean he can. Again freedom and free will and sovereignty are related but hard for me to explain on here. I could talk about it for hours lol. Read the entirety of Romans in the Bible sometime. Its fairly short and deals with these sorts of things!

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Killjoy

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« Reply #95 on: October 27, 2011, 03:54:22 am »
WSCRguitarman wrote: You didn't answer my question. How can you prove free will without God? It's just an assumption. You can't just say "I have free will" for your argument to work you have to prove it is what it is

I don't need to "prove" free will. Free will entered this discussion as a doctrine of Christianity. If anyone needs to prove free will, it would be the Christian.

the thing about locking someone up is a moral argument dealing with God's sovereignty. Completely different topic that deals with the Bible's truth, not the existence of God.

 The thing about locking someone up was an illustration to show that someone who is constrained in some way is not free in that way. Someone who is constrained in ALL ways is not free in ANY way. Thats just what the word "free" means.


Read the entirety of Romans in the Bible sometime. Its fairly short and deals with these sorts of things!

 What makes you think that Paul the Apostle would have anything better to say 2000 years ago than the people on this forum today? And I can't even debate with him!



I am an atheist - just so you know

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Thomas Larsen

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« Reply #96 on: November 09, 2011, 08:26:59 pm »
Duffduff wrote:
  1. God is defined as a personal being who knows everything.
  2. Personal beings have free will.
  3. In order to have free will, you must have more than one option, each  of which is avoidable. This means that before you make a choice, there  must be a state of uncertainty during a period of potential: you cannot  know the future. Even if you think you can predict your decision, if you  claim to have free will, you must admit the potential (if not the  desire) to change your mind before the decision is final.
  4. A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty". It knows its choices in advance.
  5. A being that knows its choices in advance has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore lacks free will.
  6. Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.
  7. Therefore, a personal God does not exist.


This argument could be more concisely summarised as follows:
  1. If God exists, God (a) has free will and (b) knows the future. (G → F, G → K.)
  2. If God knows the future, God knows in advance what choices He will make. (K → C.)
  3. If God knows in advance what choices He will make, God does not have free will. (C → ¬F.)
  4. Therefore, God cannot possess both free will and knowledge of the future. (G → F, G → K → C → ¬F.)
  5. Therefore, God does not exist. (¬G.)
What justification can be offered for premise 3, however? It does seem rather implausible to me that merely knowing one's future choices in advance somehow implies that one could not possibly have chosen otherwise. God does not choose an action because He knows that He will choose it; He knows that He will choose an action because He chooses it. So God's choices "precede," in a sense (not necessarily in time as we know it), His advance knowledge of those choices.

Those are my initial thoughts, at any rate.

P.S. Molinism is not open theism.
Thomas Larsen
tomlarsen.org

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Justin Green

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« Reply #97 on: November 17, 2011, 11:42:46 am »

Premise #3 seems a little incoherent to me...

3. If God knows in advance what choices He will make, God does not have free will.


We're used to making choices at or after the time we're presented or are aware of the options.  This doesn't necessarily have to be so for God.  Assuming that God knows the future, then He well may have made all future decisions at one instant.  This doesn't mean He doesn't have free will, He just has the ability to exercise free will ahead of the time when the options would actually be known to an entity like a human.

Here, on my initial read, choice implies that one has free will, so when I read it that way, it's like saying God has free will and foreknowledge, therefore God does not have free will.  Perhaps I'm reading the word "choices" out of context.

Disclaimer: I'm not a philosopher, lol.





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jayceeii

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Re: There is no free will !
« Reply #98 on: October 12, 2018, 04:04:58 pm »
This ignores the entire decision-making process, in which one assembles data and assesses probabilities. You just don’t know the vast amounts of data God assembles, nor whether He’s feeling bored and may want a change, doing things differently than He did on the last planet. I think your argument would prevent anyone from ever deciding anything, but the decisions do proceed and everyone lists their reasons. Given the same set of circumstances the same set of reasons arise and decisions can be a bit predictable.

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Re: There is no free will !
« Reply #99 on: October 20, 2018, 11:24:03 pm »
Back to the original arguement by Duffduff. Roughly paraphrased:How could God have free will if He knew his own decisions before He made them?
Answer:  Without creation, God could exist in a timeless state with no before or after. He would not need time to make a decision or have correct information before the decision or make decisions prior to having correct information. These type of statements  only apply from within a space time continuum

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jayceeii

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Re: There is no free will !
« Reply #100 on: November 06, 2018, 08:04:58 am »
Without creation, God could exist in a timeless state with no before or after. He would not need time to make a decision or have correct information before the decision or make decisions prior to having correct information. These type of statements  only apply from within a space time continuum
To make the proposal that God exists outside the spacetime continuum meaningful, it is necessary to have a theory of how thought is possible without time. Thought always proceeds in a sequence. Perhaps it could be correct, that God exists outside of space and time, and thinks without time, but we would never know what that could possibly mean, and it therefore reduces to hand waving. Saying something is beyond what you can know, is not the same as knowledge about that thing. You’re really in exactly the same position.

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Re: There is no free will !
« Reply #101 on: September 30, 2019, 10:23:56 am »
It seems that the main issue you bring up is God’s inability to have a “state of uncertainty” and thus no “free will”. And it is for these reasons that God is not personal, according to your argument. At first glance, I’m tracking with you. However, with a quick look through the Bible, it would appear quite clear that God does in fact change his mind, thus exhibiting free will. Now, I am assuming that the Bible represents God well and doesn’t include false aspects of his character… if you and I don’t see eye-to-eye on that, then my argument is useless. But for now, let’s just say the Bible recounts truth about God.

In the story of the ten commandments, God changes his mind. Moses pleads with God not to “bring disaster” on the people he has just saved from the hands of the Egyptians. Moses reminds God of the promises he made to Abraham and before we know it, God changes his mind. Verse 14 of chapter 32 reads, “And the Lord relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people”. There are a number of other stories like this one, but it just goes to show that apparently, God does in fact change his mind! Upon this, I assert that God has free will to execute plan A or plan B… in the case of the story, he had free will to bring disaster or not to bring disaster on his people. And what is especially interesting about this text is that Moses actually prompted the changing of God’s mind. It is clear that God does in fact have free will.
   
Furthermore, God is a personal being, or at least we can keep the options available that he could be a personal being— because he does have free will. According to your argument, a personal God doesn’t exist. However, I believe that the story of Moses changing God’s mind does in fact point to God as having free will and being very much a personal being. Below is a simple argument that indicates God as having free will and also being personal, as indicated through the Exodus 32 story.

1. If God can change his mind, then he has free will.
2. God changed his mind (Ex. 32 v. 14), therefore he has free will. (MP 1)
3. If God has free will, then he could be a personal God.
4. God has free will, thus, he is could be a personal God. (MP 3)

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jayceeii

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Re: There is no free will !
« Reply #102 on: October 01, 2019, 09:00:46 am »
It seems that the main issue you bring up is God’s inability to have a “state of uncertainty” and thus no “free will”. And it is for these reasons that God is not personal, according to your argument. At first glance, I’m tracking with you. However, with a quick look through the Bible, it would appear quite clear that God does in fact change his mind, thus exhibiting free will. Now, I am assuming that the Bible represents God well and doesn’t include false aspects of his character… if you and I don’t see eye-to-eye on that, then my argument is useless. But for now, let’s just say the Bible recounts truth about God.

In the story of the ten commandments, God changes his mind. Moses pleads with God not to “bring disaster” on the people he has just saved from the hands of the Egyptians. Moses reminds God of the promises he made to Abraham and before we know it, God changes his mind. Verse 14 of chapter 32 reads, “And the Lord relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people”. There are a number of other stories like this one, but it just goes to show that apparently, God does in fact change his mind! Upon this, I assert that God has free will to execute plan A or plan B… in the case of the story, he had free will to bring disaster or not to bring disaster on his people. And what is especially interesting about this text is that Moses actually prompted the changing of God’s mind. It is clear that God does in fact have free will.
   
Furthermore, God is a personal being, or at least we can keep the options available that he could be a personal being— because he does have free will. According to your argument, a personal God doesn’t exist. However, I believe that the story of Moses changing God’s mind does in fact point to God as having free will and being very much a personal being. Below is a simple argument that indicates God as having free will and also being personal, as indicated through the Exodus 32 story.

1. If God can change his mind, then he has free will.
2. God changed his mind (Ex. 32 v. 14), therefore he has free will. (MP 1)
3. If God has free will, then he could be a personal God.
4. God has free will, thus, he is could be a personal God. (MP 3)
To think that God can change His mind, is to fail to understand God’s profundity. It’s to take the human as a model for God, rather than forming a proper concept of God as Above and Greater. Christians credit God with being the Creator, but allow no additional properties beyond those of themselves! If you want to talk about God, then you have to talk about both the visible God, who is given to the people, and the Invisible God, who is not. The visible God or Incarnation, can seem to change His mind, but this is actually resolved to be Grace, as God blends in among the souls to whom He has given life and protects. An unchanging Incarnation would be unlovable but the Invisible God knows all.

God certainly has free will, but all that is proved by insisting He has changed His mind is failure to form a proper God-concept on the part of the arguer. In fact if God can change His mind that way the world would be in a lot of trouble, that God designed and sustains! God is deep, and decides, and doesn’t change. To know what kinds of things He is deciding, depends on one’s knowledge of what kinds of things God is doing on the Earth.