SceptiKarl

  • **
  • 221 Posts
    • View Profile
emailstthoume:


Since, on Christianity, knowing God is the greatest good for humans it would be selfish if he didn't care if people believed in Him which would be an important condition for knowing Him.



Well looking around the world, it would seem that at least 2/3  of the population DO NOT believe in the Christian God. It seems He has a bit of competition, what with Allah, Krishna etc. As to "knowing" the unknowable, well good luck to you. I'll stick to the scientific method myself.


And as I said about hell already which you did not respond to, there are defensible Christian views which do not entail people's suffering forever in hell. There are many verses about destruction of the lost in the bible which is what supports this view.


Nor do I have to respond to everything. Jesus is quite clear that non-believers such as myself are bound for the fiery lake. "The wages of sin is death" is all very well, but then according to the Bible, I have to suffer two deaths!  It reminds me of some evil Chinese villain (Fu Man Chu?); "For this you will suffer 1000 deaths!"

All nonsense of course, and all threats issued by fictional characters!

Cheers SK


Philosophers have interpreted the world in many different ways. The point is, to change it.

1

blank

  • ***
  • 1330 Posts
    • View Profile
emailestthoume wrote: Focus on the issues of God's existence, rather than accusing other members of this forum (drcraigvideos) of illegal activity? If I started accusing you of illegal activity I would expect to be reprimanded.


You're welcome to make such an accusation as long as you have some evidence backing you up. My point was that the sort of censoring I've experienced on this very forum is something that needs to be spoken about rather than acting as though it doesn't happen here.

2

FNB - Former non-believer

  • ***
  • 4048 Posts
  • Do you REALLY make your decision based on reason?
    • View Profile
blank wrote:
Quote from: emailestthoume
Focus on the issues of God's existence, rather than accusing other members of this forum (drcraigvideos) of illegal activity? If I started accusing you of illegal activity I would expect to be reprimanded.


You're welcome to make such an accusation as long as you have some evidence backing you up. My point was that the sort of censoring I've experienced on this very forum is something that needs to be spoken about rather than acting as though it doesn't happen here.

I have seen no one censored for using reason or talking about the issues irenically. All you have to do is not personally attack people and there will be no getting suspended (…not even banned).

3

FNB - Former non-believer

  • ***
  • 4048 Posts
  • Do you REALLY make your decision based on reason?
    • View Profile
SceptiKarl wrote:

Well looking around the world, it would seem that at least 2/3  of the population DO NOT believe in the Christian God. It seems He has a bit of competition, what with Allah, Krishna etc. As to "knowing" the unknowable, well good luck to you. I'll stick to the scientific method myself.

The former only confirms the Scriptures, "

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." (Matt. 7:13)

And as for the scientific method it presupposes that there is no God, and so it is rather silly if you think that it gives evidence that there is no God without a circular argument.


Quote

And as I said about hell already which you did not respond to, there are defensible Christian views which do not entail people's suffering forever in hell. There are many verses about destruction of the lost in the bible which is what supports this view.


Nor do I have to respond to everything. Jesus is quite clear that non-believers such as myself are bound for the fiery lake. "The wages of sin is death" is all very well, but then according to the Bible, I have to suffer two deaths!  It reminds me of some evil Chinese villain (Fu Man Chu?); "For this you will suffer 1000 deaths!"

All nonsense of course, and all threats issued by fictional characters!

Cheers SK
[/QUOTE]

The only substance, (much of this was an appeal to ridicule) I see in this post is that Jesus was "quite clear that nonbelievers are bound for the fierily lake." My question would be, does fire ever consume the things in the fire?



4

SceptiKarl

  • **
  • 221 Posts
    • View Profile
emailestthoume quotes the Bible:


Enter" through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." (Matt. 7:13)






Well, if true, it doesn't say much good about your God does it? Only the exclusive club of Christians can enter through the pearly gates, and the rest of His creation can be dammed! Very loving indeed! I wouldn't dream of treating my nearest and dearest that way!

And as for the scientific method it presupposes that there is no God, and so it is rather silly if you think that it gives evidence that there is no God without a circular argument.


Well no! The scientific method relies upon naturalism. Observations of the world, ideas of how things work, testing of those ideas, and changing them if necessary, making predictions about new phenomena, and either confirming or ruling out previous ideas. By itself the scientific method doesn't say anything about the supernatural because it only deals in the natural, i.e. what we can detect with our instruments and senses. The beauty of the scientific method is that it works! I wouldn't be able to type this message if it weren't for the discoveries in electricity, quantum mechanics etc.

Of course if Christians want to claim that God can and does intervene in this, the natural world, then the nature of the intervention becomes a matter of scientific enquiry. Unfortunately for religion dualism has long been ruled out by science.

Does fire ever consume the things in the fire? Err yes. Does that mean I'll be burned till dead instead of being boiled forever?

Such lovely threats you Christians have!

Cheers SK
Philosophers have interpreted the world in many different ways. The point is, to change it.

5

blank

  • ***
  • 1330 Posts
    • View Profile
emailestthoume wrote:
Quote from: blank
Quote from: emailestthoume
Focus on the issues of God's existence, rather than accusing other members of this forum (drcraigvideos) of illegal activity? If I started accusing you of illegal activity I would expect to be reprimanded.


You're welcome to make such an accusation as long as you have some evidence backing you up. My point was that the sort of censoring I've experienced on this very forum is something that needs to be spoken about rather than acting as though it doesn't happen here.

I have seen no one censored for using reason or talking about the issues irenically. All you have to do is not personally attack people and there will be no getting suspended (…not even banned).


A thread on which I posted some irenic comments was summarily deleted without warning or explanation. Oh and I didn't personally attack anyone at least on that thread. Why was the whole thread deleted and not maybe the offending posts deleted or the posters warned?

6

FNB - Former non-believer

  • ***
  • 4048 Posts
  • Do you REALLY make your decision based on reason?
    • View Profile
blank wrote:
Quote from: emailestthoume
Quote from: blank
Quote from: emailestthoume
Focus on the issues of God's existence, rather than accusing other members of this forum (drcraigvideos) of illegal activity? If I started accusing you of illegal activity I would expect to be reprimanded.


You're welcome to make such an accusation as long as you have some evidence backing you up. My point was that the sort of censoring I've experienced on this very forum is something that needs to be spoken about rather than acting as though it doesn't happen here.

I have seen no one censored for using reason or talking about the issues irenically. All you have to do is not personally attack people and there will be no getting suspended (…not even banned).


A thread on which I posted some irenic comments was summarily deleted without warning or explanation. Oh and I didn't personally attack anyone at least on that thread. Why was the whole thread deleted and not maybe the offending posts deleted or the posters warned?

Are you sure it wasn't deleted by the author of the thread? I can't vouch for every action of the admins here, but from what I have seen they are pretty fair.

7

FNB - Former non-believer

  • ***
  • 4048 Posts
  • Do you REALLY make your decision based on reason?
    • View Profile
SceptiKarl wrote:
Well, if true, it doesn't say much good about your God does it? Only the exclusive club of Christians can enter through the pearly gates, and the rest of His creation can be dammed! Very loving indeed! I wouldn't dream of treating my nearest and dearest that way!

I don't intended to spend much more of my time in having a contentious conversation with you as I have found such conversations usually get nowhere--regardless of the topic. To respond to your comments above, I don't think it is God's fault that people don't go to heaven, I consider it the responsibility of people to use their freewill to choose what is right. Looking at it purely from a logical standpoint, God is under no moral obligation to save anyone as all have sinned. On the traditional Christian view, we all deserve hell and it is only God's undeserved mercy that gets people to heaven. One should thank God that some actualy get to heaven and ask God to help them get there rather than complain that not enough get there.

Well no! The scientific method relies upon naturalism. Observations of the world, ideas of how things work, testing of those ideas, and changing them if necessary, making predictions about new phenomena, and either confirming or ruling out previous ideas. By itself the scientific method doesn't say anything about the supernatural because it only deals in the natural, i.e. what we can detect with our instruments and senses. The beauty of the scientific method is that it works!

That was my point, the scientific method assumes naturalism and so is no evidence that atheism is true as naturalism assumes atheism.

I wouldn't be able to type this message if it weren't for the discoveries in electricity, quantum mechanics etc.

You would be quite able to type this if there were no quantum mechanics. Also, if we were more moral we wouldn't worry so much about the quantum level or being able to type on forums. We would be feeding the hungry.

Of course if Christians want to claim that God can and does intervene in this, the natural world, then the nature of the intervention becomes a matter of scientific enquiry.

Science only speaks about causally closed systems and when God acts the system is no longer closed. I would also assume science doesn't engage in the psychology of supernatural omnipotent beings, but this what would be necessary to comment about the reasons why an omnipotent omniscient being wouldn't give us more scientific evidence for his existence.

Unfortunately for religion dualism has long been ruled out by science.

No it hasn't. Though I don't think the issue of dualism is a religion/vs. atheism one as there are religious non-dualists and atheistic dualists.

Does fire ever consume the things in the fire? Err yes. Does that mean I'll be burned till dead instead of being boiled forever?

Such lovely threats you Christians have!

Cheers SK

As you are well aware, I was asserting that Christianity was not committed to the idea that people are alive in hell forever. Would you accuse me of threatening people if I said that there was such a thing as jail and people go there for crimes? Imagine what life would be like without consequences!

8

blank

  • ***
  • 1330 Posts
    • View Profile
emailestthoume wrote:
Quote from: blank
Quote from: emailestthoume
Quote from: blank
Quote from: emailestthoume
Focus on the issues of God's existence, rather than accusing other members of this forum (drcraigvideos) of illegal activity? If I started accusing you of illegal activity I would expect to be reprimanded.


You're welcome to make such an accusation as long as you have some evidence backing you up. My point was that the sort of censoring I've experienced on this very forum is something that needs to be spoken about rather than acting as though it doesn't happen here.

I have seen no one censored for using reason or talking about the issues irenically. All you have to do is not personally attack people and there will be no getting suspended (…not even banned).


A thread on which I posted some irenic comments was summarily deleted without warning or explanation. Oh and I didn't personally attack anyone at least on that thread. Why was the whole thread deleted and not maybe the offending posts deleted or the posters warned?

Are you sure it wasn't deleted by the author of the thread? I can't vouch for every action of the admins here, but from what I have seen they are pretty fair.


Nah I don't think it was the author since the author had some things to say on that issue.

9

SceptiKarl

  • **
  • 221 Posts
    • View Profile
emailestthoume doesn't want to have a contentious exchange with me. Nor do I. I'm not on a Christian site to score points, but to exchange ideas. If emailes.. feels that opposing views to his/hers are somehow unworthy of reply then that is a decision that emailes... has made. Having said that, s/he doesn't want contention, emailes.. then goes on to say:

On the traditional Christian view, we all deserve hell and it is only God's undeserved mercy that gets people to heaven. One should thank God that some actualy get to heaven and ask God to help them get there rather than complain that not enough get there.



Yes that is the traditional Christian view and what a load of nonsense it is! As Hitchens put it, you are born ill and commanded to get better, which is beyond your power! So for example the Boxing Day tsunami, a natural disaster which killed over 500,000 people, (mostly non-Christian), somehow a baby survived on a beach somewhere. A miracle declared the believers, whilst ignoring the carnage of the half million odd dead! God always gets the credit for the good stuff, whilst anything bad is down to we sinners! Sheer nonsense! We are not sinners, we are human beings who have evolved over billions of years from our earliest common ancestor, which was also the common ancestor of the rest  of life on Earth. We are apes, and our closest common ancestor with the apes is about 6 million years ago. A book like the Bible or Koran that demands that Adam and Eve were the first humans and made by God, is completely out of touch with science. It's fantasy!

That was my point, the scientific method assumes naturalism and so is no evidence that atheism is true as naturalism assumes atheism.
Excuse me! Science has absolutely nothing to say about the supernatural, because it is outside of what humans can observe. But as plenty of religions, including Christianity, claim that their particular God can and does intervene in this, the known natural world, then that can become a matter of scientific investigation. For example, the Turin Shroud is claimed by many, (but not officially by the RCC), to the be burial cloth of Jesus containing blood! Well modern forensic science should in that case be able to take a sample and determine whether or not Jesus was a human being, or whether his DNA existed at all! Of course the Vatican has refused all further tests on the Shroud since the last carbon 14 dating ones estimated its age at about 700 years. The RCC obviously prefers the "mystery" to continue. That's faith for you!
You would be quite able to type this if there were no quantum mechanics. Also, if we were more moral we wouldn't worry so much about the quantum level or being able to type on forums.
Ah so God is behind quantum mechanics! Do you have any evidence for this assertion? A Nobel Prize awaits! Don't you see that plonking "God" as the solution, only pushes the problem back a further stage. So where did God come from?
We would be feeding the hungry.
Why does God, all loving, allow the hungry? (Oh, I forgot, it's we sinners' fault! Doh).
Science only speaks about causally closed systems and when God acts the system is no longer closed.
Oh how convenient that God can just pop in and out of reality as and when it suits Him! A ludicrous assertion with no basis in reality. Your mobile phone wouldn't work on such an ad hoc basis.
Quote:
Unfortunately for religion dualism has long been ruled out by science.

No it hasn't. Though I don't think the issue of dualism is a religion/vs. atheism one as there are religious non-dualists and atheistic dualists.

So how can a mind exist without a body? Again a Nobel Prize awaits!
As you are well aware, I was asserting that Christianity was not committed to the idea that people are alive in hell forever. Would you accuse me of threatening people if I said that there was such a thing as jail and people go there for crimes? Imagine what life would be like without consequences!

I notice the level of threat has dropped from eternal boiling, burnt till dead, to a term in jail! Could  I agree with such a progressive Christian as yourself that hell could be an eternally long warm bath? (Maybe God would take mercy and send down the odd single malt whisky?)
Cheers SK

Philosophers have interpreted the world in many different ways. The point is, to change it.

10

FNB - Former non-believer

  • ***
  • 4048 Posts
  • Do you REALLY make your decision based on reason?
    • View Profile
SceptiKarl wrote: If emailes.. feels that opposing views to his/hers are somehow unworthy of reply then that is a decision that emailes... has made.

This is one reason why I probably wont spend much time debating with you. You are totally ignoring what I said. I made it clear that my reasons for not thinking about not continuing this are not that I consider "opposing views are unworthy of reply," in fact, I am involved in long and detailed conversations on this site with people who disagree with me. And it ends up taking hours a day to reply to them.

This, on the contrary, is what I said,

I don't intended to spend much more of my time in having a contentious conversation with you as I have found such conversations usually get nowhere--regardless of the topic.

I wouldn't be surprised if you again trolled out on your next post though.


11

FNB - Former non-believer

  • ***
  • 4048 Posts
  • Do you REALLY make your decision based on reason?
    • View Profile
blank wrote:
Quote from: emailestthoume
Quote from: blank
Quote from: emailestthoume
Quote from: blank
Quote from: emailestthoume
Focus on the issues of God's existence, rather than accusing other members of this forum (drcraigvideos) of illegal activity? If I started accusing you of illegal activity I would expect to be reprimanded.


You're welcome to make such an accusation as long as you have some evidence backing you up. My point was that the sort of censoring I've experienced on this very forum is something that needs to be spoken about rather than acting as though it doesn't happen here.

I have seen no one censored for using reason or talking about the issues irenically. All you have to do is not personally attack people and there will be no getting suspended (…not even banned).


A thread on which I posted some irenic comments was summarily deleted without warning or explanation. Oh and I didn't personally attack anyone at least on that thread. Why was the whole thread deleted and not maybe the offending posts deleted or the posters warned?

Are you sure it wasn't deleted by the author of the thread? I can't vouch for every action of the admins here, but from what I have seen they are pretty fair.


Nah I don't think it was the author since the author had some things to say on that issue.

It is not that unusual for someone to delete a thread they have created and commented on at length.

12

blank

  • ***
  • 1330 Posts
    • View Profile
emailestthoume wrote:
Quote from: blank
Quote from: emailestthoume
Quote from: blank
Quote from: emailestthoume
Quote from: blank
Quote from: emailestthoume
Focus on the issues of God's existence, rather than accusing other members of this forum (drcraigvideos) of illegal activity? If I started accusing you of illegal activity I would expect to be reprimanded.


You're welcome to make such an accusation as long as you have some evidence backing you up. My point was that the sort of censoring I've experienced on this very forum is something that needs to be spoken about rather than acting as though it doesn't happen here.

I have seen no one censored for using reason or talking about the issues irenically. All you have to do is not personally attack people and there will be no getting suspended (…not even banned).


A thread on which I posted some irenic comments was summarily deleted without warning or explanation. Oh and I didn't personally attack anyone at least on that thread. Why was the whole thread deleted and not maybe the offending posts deleted or the posters warned?

Are you sure it wasn't deleted by the author of the thread? I can't vouch for every action of the admins here, but from what I have seen they are pretty fair.


Nah I don't think it was the author since the author had some things to say on that issue.

It is not that unusual for someone to delete a thread they have created and commented on at length.


Okay. Though I didn't think thread authors had the permission to delete entire threads.

13

FNB - Former non-believer

  • ***
  • 4048 Posts
  • Do you REALLY make your decision based on reason?
    • View Profile
blank wrote:
Quote from: emailestthoume
Quote from: blank
Quote from: emailestthoume
Quote from: blank
Quote from: emailestthoume
Quote from: blank
Quote from: emailestthoume
Focus on the issues of God's existence, rather than accusing other members of this forum (drcraigvideos) of illegal activity? If I started accusing you of illegal activity I would expect to be reprimanded.


You're welcome to make such an accusation as long as you have some evidence backing you up. My point was that the sort of censoring I've experienced on this very forum is something that needs to be spoken about rather than acting as though it doesn't happen here.

I have seen no one censored for using reason or talking about the issues irenically. All you have to do is not personally attack people and there will be no getting suspended (…not even banned).


A thread on which I posted some irenic comments was summarily deleted without warning or explanation. Oh and I didn't personally attack anyone at least on that thread. Why was the whole thread deleted and not maybe the offending posts deleted or the posters warned?

Are you sure it wasn't deleted by the author of the thread? I can't vouch for every action of the admins here, but from what I have seen they are pretty fair.


Nah I don't think it was the author since the author had some things to say on that issue.

It is not that unusual for someone to delete a thread they have created and commented on at length.


Okay. Though I didn't think thread authors had the permission to delete entire threads.

You can delete any thread you make.

14
I find it very ironic that whilst Dawkins complains about genocide he actively encourages the (cultural) genocide of the Christian faith.

Yet more evidence that Dawkins doesn't critically engage his own ideas or motivations
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use"- G