Chris Turner

  • **
  • 17 Posts
    • View Profile
God created the Chinese for hell?
« on: November 15, 2011, 07:11:59 am »

if you read Q&A 8

Subject: Molinism, the Unevangelized, and Cultural Chauvinism

you will read this answer from WLC.

I suggest that it’s possible that God, desiring that all men should be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (I Tim. 2.4), has so providentially ordered the world that anyone who would believe in the Gospel if he heard it is born at a time and place in history where he does in fact hear it........he would have responded to the Gospel if only he had had the chance.

So it would seem that the tens/hundreds of millions of Chinese that lived and died without a chance of hearing the Gospel (say most of those living between 1100 and 1980) were put there (China) by God, who knew that they would not respond anyway. That seems to be WLC's argument here - is that right?

lets take that to its logical conclusion,
  • God knew no matter what they heard or experienced when they were adults, they would not have responded.
  • God knew no matter what they heard or experienced when they were children, they would not have responded
  • God knew no matter what they heard even if they had been born to the most caring christian families, heard the gospel expounded in the very best way, experienced the trials and tribulations and joy and hope which showed the true love of Jesus,  they still would not have responded..
After all, if we believe that human persons are individuated by their souls, then my soul could have been placed in a different body so that I should have been a person of a different race or ethnicity born at a different time and place in history


So it wasn't their parents, or environment, or the culture, or genetics, so that just leaves  - their souls.


Who made their souls? - God

Therefore, God made their souls unable to respond - and destined for hell.

Doesn't it follow - where have I gone wrong -?


(please don't tell me your views on what happens to the unevangelised, please stick to the content & logic of WLC's arguments and mine - thanks)


1

Justin Green

  • **
  • 889 Posts
    • View Profile
God created the Chinese for hell?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2011, 12:17:13 pm »

Well, I won't challenge or agree with WLC's views, but given that God did create a certain number of souls bound for Hell, one product of God creating all of those lost souls is that their progeny, which will outnumber them, are accepting Christ, so that those lost souls eventually lead to a greater number of Christians ultimately?

Just a rambling thought.  So, let's say that God knows a certain ratio of all souls created over time will not and would not accept Him no matter what.  He, in fact, knows what each individual soul will choose.  He places those souls who He knows will reject Him in locations and times where the Gospel is not preached, knowing that many of their offspring will accept Christ, placing those souls as the lost or damned souls' children/grandchildren, etc.  If free will exists, then perhaps this was inevitable.


2

troyjs

  • ***
  • 2753 Posts
    • View Profile
God created the Chinese for hell?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2011, 10:13:33 pm »
God created sinners, ie. people with a sinful nature, that He would show both mercy in saving some, and justice in sending others to Hell. The number of people going to Hell should never have been the countless millions -- it should have been all of us.

kind regards
“Knowledge of the sciences is so much smoke apart from the heavenly science of Christ” -- John Calvin.
“I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels” -- John Calvin

3

Chris Turner

  • **
  • 17 Posts
    • View Profile
God created the Chinese for hell?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2011, 02:19:39 pm »
Jnwaco wrote:

Well, I won't challenge or agree with WLC's views,

 Its his views I'm interested in

4

Chris Turner

  • **
  • 17 Posts
    • View Profile
God created the Chinese for hell?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2011, 02:30:24 pm »
troyjs wrote: God created sinners, ie. people with a sinful nature, that He would show both mercy in saving some, and justice in sending others to Hell. The number of people going to Hell should never have been the countless millions -- it should have been all of us.

so he made them for hell then?

5

Justin Green

  • **
  • 889 Posts
    • View Profile
God created the Chinese for hell?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2011, 02:59:40 pm »
turner_chris1 wrote:
Quote from: Jnwaco

Well, I won't challenge or agree with WLC's views,

 Its his views I'm interested in


And it was those I discussed.  I don't see how knowing that a person won't accept God is equal to God creating them for hell.  I don't think that God's knowledge of a choice someone else makes doesn't logically deprive them of that choice.


Again, a plausible but admittedly ad hoc possibility is that those people whom God knew would reject him were specifically placed where the gospel may not ever have reached them.


6

Chris Turner

  • **
  • 17 Posts
    • View Profile
God created the Chinese for hell?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2011, 02:41:28 pm »

And it was those I discussed.  I don't see how knowing that a person won't accept God is equal to God creating them for hell.  

Why is it that they wont accept God ?

Is it because of the experiences, what they learnt in their lives?   Is that their fault ?

Is it because of their genetics? Is that their fault?

Is it because of their souls? Who gave them that?

So that's why I think he made them for hell







7

troyjs

  • ***
  • 2753 Posts
    • View Profile
God created the Chinese for hell?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2011, 12:09:11 am »

so he made them for hell then?

I thought it was obvious. Yes, God created all those who do go to Hell, for Hell -- among other things.

Ofcourse, it would be wrong for God to send innocent people to Hell. However, since no one is innocent, then there is no charge against God.

God created sinners who deserve to go to Hell.

He created some of these sinners, for Hell.

He created some of these sinners, for Heaven.

It is not fair that some go to Hell, and some go to Heaven.

What is fair and just, is if everyone went to Hell.

God desires to show both mercy, and justice towards sinners.

By sending some to heaven, and some to Hell, God has both mercy, and justice towards sinners.

This would be the Calvinist position.

There is also the issue, regarding persons wh have heard the Gospel, but reject it. They will be judged more harshly for their rejection of the Gospel. You may possibly want to ask, "Does God create these people, so that they would be judged more harshly?".

The answer to that is, God does not create these people solely that they would be judged more harshly, but God does put them in this situation, so that they would be judged more harshly. According to Calvinism, everything is the way it is, because God wants it that way -- God is completely and totally sovereign over all creation.

If you are not trusting solely that God's requirement of the Law was satisfied in Christ's death on the cross, then you can not even choose to have saving faith in Christ unless God desires to save you. It is not up to you, it is not your choice whether you go to Hell or not. If God desires for you or me to go to Hell for all eternity, then there is nothing at all that can stop this from happening. If you are aware of your sinful condition before God, then you better thank God that you know how sinful you are before your Creator, and put all possible hope of your salvation, in the work of Jesus alone.


kind regards

“Knowledge of the sciences is so much smoke apart from the heavenly science of Christ” -- John Calvin.
“I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels” -- John Calvin

8

troyjs

  • ***
  • 2753 Posts
    • View Profile
God created the Chinese for hell?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2011, 01:59:23 am »

To address Dr WLC's article, I think both he and I would agree with you, however I presume that Dr Craig would affirm the following proposition:

P1)There is a possible world in which God's not choosing to save person p, is not for God to choose to not to save person p.

To not choose to save p,
is not necessarily equivalent to:
To choose not to save p.

If (P1) is logically possible, then it is logically possible that God did not choose to send those people to Hell -- he simply didn't choose to save them.

To give an analogy:To 'not believe there is a God', is not equivalent to, 'believe there is no God'.

There is a possible world in which someone does not believe in a God (agnostic), and this person does not believe there is no God (atheist).
Possibly, God can not choose to save person p, without choosing to not save person p. What you would have to do then, is to provide a good reason why (P1) is not possible. Until you do, it does not logically follow that God not saving p, is God choosing to send p to Hell.The Molinist would be free from your objection.

As much as I dislike Molinism, at this juncture there is no reason for the Molinist to believe that because God did not create someone for Heaven, that He created them for Hell. Further, the Molinist provides a conceivability in which God does create and place someone in a situation in which they will go to Hell, without creating them for Hell.

According to Molinism, of all the possible worlds God could create, there will always be some people who do not accept the Gospel. The reason why those who do not respond to the Gospel, do not, is not because God desired or chose that they should go to Hell, but because He chose to actualise the possible world in which the maximal number of person are saved -- it just so happens that those are the people who wouldn't be saved in the best of all possible worlds. God did not have any 'favoourite people', and so He was not primarily concerned with who the particular people were who do or donot go to Heaven, but with how many. The Molinist might say, " God loves us all equally, and desires all of us to be saved, but not everyone can be saved. God saves as much of us as is possible."

If however, you believe that God is completely and totally sovereign, then you would have to believe in double predestination as Calvinists do, and Dr Craig misunderstands the meaning of 1 Timothy 2:4, but this is beyond the scope of this thread.


kind regards
“Knowledge of the sciences is so much smoke apart from the heavenly science of Christ” -- John Calvin.
“I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels” -- John Calvin

9

Chris Turner

  • **
  • 17 Posts
    • View Profile
God created the Chinese for hell?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2012, 07:33:31 am »
Not sure if this is out of context but Romans 9:14 - 22 seems interesting:

http://www.bricktestament.com/epistles/on_justice/01_rm09_14.html

(sorry I just love the Brick testament)

doesn't this seems to support the idea that God make some for heaven, some for hell?

10

Chris Turner

  • **
  • 17 Posts
    • View Profile
God created the Chinese for hell?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2012, 03:47:00 pm »
well don't tell me tell wlc!

but if god doesn't send them to hell, then what does happen to the unevangelised?

If they don't suffer any disadvantage, then why the millions spent on missions, tv, etc to those very countries and people?

If they do, then, why them and not you?

11

StormyGourd

  • *
  • 1 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: God created the Chinese for hell?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2013, 01:31:11 am »
This was sort of a reoccurring question or thought process I had when it came to my belief in God for a loooooong time. Basically my question or thought process went something like " If God is omnipotent and knows all, then he knew the final outcome of our decisions regarding our soul's final resting place. Regardless of free will , he ultimately knew what the final outcome would be. So, he made you anyway knowing you would spend an eternity in hell , suffering and writhing in despair? Not a very loving act. Isn't God supposed to be loving ? Why Would he waste the time to create a soul if he knew that ultimately you would spend an eternity in hell?"

I had this hip hop producer from Brooklyn enlighten me. He told me I was putting God in a box , and limiting him to constructs of his own design. Since action and reaction are slaves to time in a linear sense, as well as our whole mortal existence and reality ( we would go back in time and fix mistakes if we were not  ;) )
....we tend to box god into that construct. Also, we assume God's perception is human like. That he observes reality like a human. So, I was humanizing God as well.
He said " God is outside of time and space, he can manipulate it to his liking, he made those things. They are completely pliable to God. So, it stands to reason, he could have the ability to see/observe every possible outcome of a decision you were to ever make in any given situation, at a whim. So, the choice really is still yours and pre-destiny is a human thought process. "
That made a lot of sense to me.

12

Jubilee

  • ***
  • 1237 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: God created the Chinese for hell?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2013, 10:23:28 am »
Dr. Craig is an exclusivist who believes conscious recognition of Jesus is de facto necessary for salvation. He mentions Romans as supporting this view as it seems that the only purpose of general revelation is to condemn people, but it is possible they be saved by it, but in the actual world they are not.

This might seem to be cultural chauvinism, but that's only if the argument doesn't go through. A second objection would be "why would God create these people if they served no other purpose than to go to hell?", well, Craig would likely deny that there is no other purpose. Their lives are part of a larger providential plan that involves saving the most people.

It's consistent. Still, it seems psychologically implausible and almost ad hoc. I'd much rather adopt inclusivism and a doctrine of additional chances post-mortem and suggest that God desires humans to drive their own spiritual and moral evolution which requires humans to spread the gospel. Other people who would otherwise be saved dont get ripped off in the deal during said evolution in my scenario, because of inclusivism and possibly further chances.

You might ask whether those doctrines are biblical. I do think there is very solid biblical evidence for further chances, some weaker support for inclusivism, and some support for the view of free human moral & spiritual evolution. Nonetheless, I don't think biblical inerrancy is plausible so I don't think there is THE biblical view on the matter. The bible seems to express many conflicting theological voices all of the time.

I have sympathy for views which agree with the authority of the church to interpret the Bible (which I do give some authority). It's noteworthy that the Eastern Orthodox Church is (a) inclusivist (b) somewhat open to further chances and (c) very much in favor of that view of God's desires for humanity.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 10:29:48 am by Jubilee »
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.