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Nicholas Olsen

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« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2012, 01:16:54 am »
Idunno - The little amount he told me about is mentioning the historicity of Christ, but he didn't say anything farther than Lee Strobel. His insistence on looking up AiG and not having substantive knowledge pretty much tells me he has barely any apologetic abilites. I never really thought of it that way, but now that you bring it up it does make sense that he is adding to salvation. Maybe one of the members will point that out, because I'm honestly done with starting a convo with him.

THanks for all the feedback email, because trying to get a point across is really hard. It's like using something outside the Bible means it's moot in their opinion. I might have to raise that point up to him, because he really admires John Piper.

I've basically cut ties with the group and leader, because who wants to sit in a room where the person has heard "your testimony, your prayers, and your life experiences then comes to find out I haven't met his salvation guidelines? I will be pressed on this in front of the everyone which is usually 10+ people, so when everyone wants to get their say on the matter. How will their be any progress? I've good friends in there that i hope stay good friends despite my theological differences with him.

This is the only on-campus Christian group and everyone who goes will be getting this brand. I pray to God that my criticisms, other members, or non-believers stress this point outside of my presence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyb7SQefYMA

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FNB - Former non-believer

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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2012, 12:00:32 pm »
Sorry to hear about all of the drama. I thought about the piper/grudem thing again, and just wanted to warn you that they, being some of the most conservative evangelicals, may actually consider one unsaved who believe in evolution… so be ready for that. I also looked up Piper and found his definition of the gospel is rather complex. (http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/piper-on-what-is-the-gospel)

If your former CC leader likes Piper, its very likely he likes Grudem and R.C. Sproul as well. The latter defines the gospel in much the way I described to you already, and it doesn't have anything to do with the evolution/creationist debate, http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/what-gospel/

I'll pray for you all… sounds like a tough situation.

God bless

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Nicholas Olsen

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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2012, 04:24:53 pm »
Shocking and good news, but i still feel a little hostility. He talked somebody and said that belief in a "method" of creation is non-essential.(Score!) He still disagrees that evolution is pliable with Genesis. (that's fine) He still holds it to be an Unchristian like belief as if real Christians can't believe it. The fact he told me earlier that Christians can't believe lies on doctrine has never been taken back so it goes like this.

1. Evolution is non-essential to salvation.
2. Christians can't be affirming a lie about doctrine.
3. Evolution is a lie.

I take more of the WLC style of evolution/ID belief. I'm agnostic and it's a matter of science, but i know i can't hold to a YEC belief either. I'm probably closer to the Hugh Ross progressive old-earther, but that's still a lie in his head because it isn't Young Earth creationism.

Any progress is better than no progress, but.... maybe a new problem will be addressed to the same magnitude. I hope it doesn't, because i wana be in the group. Yet at the same time he's freakin me out and making me out to be some ultra-far left field Christian that makes no sense. I don't want to debate every piece of doctrine he holds too.

The group will soon be going through Ephesians and the 1st few verses are like Calvinist heaven if you don't take it in reference to other scriptures, which would veer the study so off topic. As i have shown.... his interpretation is very weird and practically anti-common sense to non-debatable science topics. (AKA sun stood still)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyb7SQefYMA

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Jared Baker

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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2012, 08:00:39 pm »

Sonick92 wrote: 1. Must a saved Christian believe every "correct" doctrine mentioned in the Bible?


I've never heard of anybody promoting this view. Even the most strident fundamentalists usually narrow it down to a handful of core doctrines, which typically don't include a particular interpretation of Genesis 1. The Fundamentals, a collection of theological essays published from 1910 to 1915 and from which "fundamentalism" got its name, included a a few essays by Presbyterian theologian and theistic evolutionist James Orr, including "Science and Christian Faith" and "The Early Narratives of Genesis." Orr was one of the co-founders of fundamentalist Christianity, and he accepted the theory of evolution! It's unfortunate the movement is now known for its anti-intellectualism.


2. Is it Biblical that saved Christian will be protected from believing lies about Himself?


I have heard this claim, but only from hyper-Calvinists who assert with traditional Calvinists that God caused them to believe all they do about himself and the way of salvation. Because they agree with Spurgeon that Calvinism and the gospel are one and the same, anyone who rejects Reformed teaching has in essence rejected the message of Christ; God would not cause his regenerate elect to have false beliefs about such vitally important soteriological matters, so it follows that only Calvinists are genuinely saved. I'd want to emphasize, however, that only a tiny minority of Calvinists hold this fringe position--and probably not even most hyper-Calvinists either--but the view does exist.

"I begin with the principle that all men are bores. Surely no one will prove himself so great a bore as to contradict me in this." - Søren Kierkegaard
"As soon as man began considering himself the source of the highest meaning in the world and the measure of everything, the world began to lose its

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Nicholas Olsen

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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2012, 08:35:57 pm »
Jared wrote:

I have heard this claim, but only from hyper-Calvinists who assert with traditional Calvinists that God caused them to believe all they do about himself and the way of salvation. Because they agree with Spurgeon that Calvinism and the gospel are one and the same, anyone who rejects Reformed teaching has in essence rejected the message of Christ; God would not cause his regenerate elect to have false beliefs about such vitally important soteriological matters, so it follows that only Calvinists are genuinely saved. I'd want to emphasize, however, that only a tiny minority of Calvinists hold this fringe position--and probably not even most hyper-Calvinists either--but the view does exist.


The 2 things he always talks about is Reformed Puritan stuff and making mention of Spurgeon 'almost' more than the Bible. I really don't feel at home there among them because it's like theology seems higher in importance than God's presence or work in your life. Especially since i clash with him on many topics; the focus is primarily gone. It's definitely not comfortable .....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyb7SQefYMA

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FNB - Former non-believer

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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2012, 01:46:47 am »
Sonick92 wrote:
Quote from: Jared

I have heard this claim, but only from hyper-Calvinists who assert with traditional Calvinists that God caused them to believe all they do about himself and the way of salvation. Because they agree with Spurgeon that Calvinism and the gospel are one and the same, anyone who rejects Reformed teaching has in essence rejected the message of Christ; God would not cause his regenerate elect to have false beliefs about such vitally important soteriological matters, so it follows that only Calvinists are genuinely saved. I'd want to emphasize, however, that only a tiny minority of Calvinists hold this fringe position--and probably not even most hyper-Calvinists either--but the view does exist.


The 2 things he always talks about is Reformed Puritan stuff and making mention of Spurgeon 'almost' more than the Bible. I really don't feel at home there among them because it's like theology seems higher in importance than God's presence or work in your life. Especially since i clash with him on many topics; the focus is primarily gone. It's definitely not comfortable .....

I used to be like this… so I guess maybe all I could advise you to do is pity him. I also recently had someone in a class who was a very loud and determined calvinist constantly interrupting the prof. and it got very annoying, especially since this was a prof. I really wanted to hear teach. But I couldn't help but think that God was testing me a bit, as I used to be exactly like that myself. So what I did was just try not to judge him and get all I could out of the class anyway, and trust God to bless me in return… and he always does. Maybe part of God's plan is for you to stay in the group and his interactions with you and others in the group may make him end up doing a 180 like I did with calvinism. But idk, just a thought.

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idunno

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« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2012, 01:47:28 am »
Sonick he may be making the honest, but ignorant, mistake of confusing  scripture with his interpretation of scripture.

Going back to 2 Timothy 2 the context is the really taking about the resurrection:

   But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”
(2 Timothy 2:16-19 ESV)

In other words
the resurrection hasn't happened yet
don't worry
He hasn't forgotten you.

“...these things- the beauty, the memory of our past- …are not the thing itself; they are only the scent of a flower we have not found, the echo of a tune we have not heard, news from a country we have never visited.”
- Clive

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Nicholas Olsen

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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2012, 03:18:11 am »
I'm probably the 1st type of Christian that these people have ever met, so it's sort of like a shock to them. In 1 case it's enlightening to them to hear a different view, but to understand and take it as a strong point is another ball game. Like... i've raised a point about the unheard groups, because they think that a physical transmission of the Gospel is the only way people get saved. I raise the point as to the fairness of people's salvation in China and Native American Indians before and after Christ. The best response they gave is "Who knows maybe God predestined them." This isn't consistent with their previous claim, but still showing there is no free-will involved. I left it there because they understood my point and couldn't answer with a Biblical reason or even be consistent with themselves.

Simply because i disagree with their theology and the constant drive to put that in the bible study in my case is taking away from me learning how to walk with Christ. The constant disagreement, then debating the point will just make it worse. Going from Romans 1-8 touches a lot of topics and i couldn't help but feel fervor to press a specific theology. I want to develop a better walk, but it gets disrupted by the constant disagreements.

Is it really healthy for me.... being 10.5 months into my Christian walk to really debate these topics? Yes be informed, but please don't pressure me. I'll be praying on that email, because the initial shock of what was said is still felt a little bit. I don't want to rush things or make it awkward. If i go in there; I know i'm gonna be getting constant talk about this and i don't see it dying anytime soon because i am taking the WLC stance on this. AS long as i don't move, then my CC leader will keep pounding me with this. Maybe God will give him the sense that i have to change my own mind.

Idunno - I hope he is confusing the two because it was like telling a blind man colors exist. I completely agree, because using the word "truth" in reference to the resurrection in the later paragraph un-separated from the 3rd chapter shows that those 2 words mean 1 thing in specific. Not truth as in every doctrinal piece.

Thanks for all the help guys. I'll definitely keep this updated, because he still thinks God won't let Christians believe lies about Himself and the Bible. Frankly... i pray for the best that my CC leader and the others recognize what's really important because the dogma might just kill me. LL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyb7SQefYMA

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idunno

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« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2012, 04:33:22 am »
Sonick92 wrote:

Is it really healthy for me.... being 10.5 months into my Christian walk to really debate these topics? Yes be informed, but please don't pressure me.



That is still somewhat new in the faith, my advice is keep at the the apologetics but let the primaries be the primaries right now.
“...these things- the beauty, the memory of our past- …are not the thing itself; they are only the scent of a flower we have not found, the echo of a tune we have not heard, news from a country we have never visited.”
- Clive

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troyjs

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« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2012, 06:53:33 pm »
It is not true that Biblical innerancy is what you are dealing with in your CC leader -- it is his soteriology you are dealing with, not his view of the Bible.

This is the heart of the matter --

What must I do to be saved?

What does the Bible say, is the truth of the matter regarding this question, Biblical inerrantist or not. The fact that he wants to take the Bible seriously is a reason for him not to believe that young-earth creationism is necessary for salvation.

Nevertheless, although it may be the case that he does not believe young-earth creationism is necessary to be held in order for one to be saved, it may his position that one should believe all that the Bible teaches, and if the Bible teaches young-earth creationism as historical, then one should believe in it as a matter of faith and obedience in God. You can agree with him on this, without actually believing in young-earth creationism, ie. you can agree that if the Bible teaches it as historical, then it is in fact true. However, the question for both of you is:

Does the Bible teach young-earth creationism as historical fact?

kind regards

“Knowledge of the sciences is so much smoke apart from the heavenly science of Christ” -- John Calvin.
“I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels” -- John Calvin

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Nicholas Olsen

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« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2012, 10:42:34 pm »
Right now it's more about the attributes of being a saved Christian. I'm more than happy to discuss young-earth vs old earth, but the problem that i have isn't about that.

My CC leader holds that a Christian can't be led to believe a lie about the Bible. He didn't even provide any scriptural support to that either.

Given all the denominations; I would hope that a large majority agree on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Believe on that, live your life by His words and you're saved. Put that one stipulation my CC leader adds to the mix and being able to tell of ones salvation becomes almost impossible. He allows that you can struggle with doctrine, but if you believe a lie regarding it, then you can't be saved because Christians can't believe lies.

I'm all for healthy debate and discussion regarding interpretations of the Bible, but to say "X" doctrine is correct and anything else makes you a non-Christian seems crazy. When you have experts/scholars on all sides or anyone smarter than my CC leader that disagrees with him makes me wonder how he can be so confident that this "X" doctrine is the only viable option. Hence his Young Earth creationism shows only when i say/think Genesis is vague and not meant to be scientific. If think his interpretation is wrong, then apparently im not a Christian.

Even though he apologized and said it's not necessary for salvation. He still thinks God doesn't let His children believe lies, so im not exactly saved in his opinion. I really think this is an oversight on his part, because a friend told him that the creation doctrine isn't necessary for salvation. It's getting frustrating because he seems to have the "I'm always right with the doctrines and interpretations i subscribe too" attitude. No room for disagreement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyb7SQefYMA

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FNB - Former non-believer

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« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2012, 10:51:57 pm »
Even though he apologized and said it's not necessary for salvation. He still thinks God doesn't let His children believe lies, so im not exactly saved in his opinion

arg… he's contradicting himself then. He's saying that you don't have to believe in YEC to be a Christian yet if you don't believe in YEC you are not a Christian.

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Nicholas Olsen

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« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2012, 11:10:53 pm »
emailestthoume wrote:
Even though he apologized and said it's not necessary for salvation. He still thinks God doesn't let His children believe lies, so im not exactly saved in his opinion

arg… he's contradicting himself then. He's saying that you don't have to believe in YEC to be a Christian yet if you don't believe in YEC you are not a Christian.

Essentially.... 2 unlike things cross paths here.

He say YEC is correct doctrine, which is fine, but when you say Christians must/have to believe correct doctrine. Anything that strays from YEC kills salvation.

I have yet to talk to him about this, but sometime soon I'm gonna point this out to the organizer of CC at my college. I'll show her all the logs that caused this and point out what i think is inconsistent. Frankly... i'm surprised she has concerns about him too, so it's a hopeful meet where something might change. I just want him to learn what he's saying and dropping the insistence behind his beliefs. It's fine to believe it, but don't say it's the only and absolute correct/Christian way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyb7SQefYMA

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idunno

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« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2012, 11:18:36 pm »
Sonick92 wrote:  "I'm always right with the doctrines and interpretations i subscribe too" attitude. No room for disagreement.



this tends to be my attitude when it comes to TBN
“...these things- the beauty, the memory of our past- …are not the thing itself; they are only the scent of a flower we have not found, the echo of a tune we have not heard, news from a country we have never visited.”
- Clive

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Blake1960

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« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2012, 11:44:01 am »
Sonick,

>>> 1. Must a saved Christian believe every "correct" doctrine mentioned in the Bible?

I'd like to see his list of "correct doctrines" of the Bible.  

>>>
Is it Biblical that saved Christians will be protected from believing lies about Himself (G-d)?

Well, "protected from" doesn't necessarily mean "prevented from" does it?  So that over time we surely find truth and discard misconceptions and fallacies, all the while accepting grace and salvation.  Yet the question of what doctrines he is meaning is pivotal to the issue.

I don't find any evidence that being wholly knowledgeable of science is required in order to be saved.  What did J-sus say about being concerned with the world of men?