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idunno

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« on: January 20, 2012, 12:42:16 am »
Its my understanding that God has given two universal revelations.
The first being that of His existence, Romans 1:19-20.
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

The second is in regards to His law, Romans 2:14-15
"For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them."

From these verses we are introduced to natural theology.

The bible doesn't only tell us that these revelations exist, it also tells us why they exist.
Before Paul introduces and expounds on these ideas he first gives, what I believe is, his reason for doing so In Romans 1:18
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."

Here Paul pronounces the universal guilt of humanity.
However, God would not be justified in exercising His wrath against people who ignorantly broke the laws of a God whom they did not know existed. But that doesn't seem to be the case here.


Jared has said that "inordinate  conduct (a violation of Gods law) is only attributed to us as sin if we are in a position to  understand that what we're doing is wrong and has cited
Romans 5:12-13 to show this,
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law."

However I believe that the text implies that there was a law prior to the law of Moses, this can be seen in the following verse Romans 5:14
"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."



What I see is this:

1. death comes through sin, 5:12
2. sin is not counted where there is no law 5:13
3. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses 5:14
4. therefore there must have been a law between the time of Adam and Moses

I hold that this is the law Paul refers to in Romans 2:14-15, that law written on the hearts of those who had never laid eyes on those stone tablets.

“...these things- the beauty, the memory of our past- …are not the thing itself; they are only the scent of a flower we have not found, the echo of a tune we have not heard, news from a country we have never visited.”
- Clive

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troyjs

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« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2012, 01:45:06 am »
That is the Christian view, ie. our conscience, although not a perfect guide as to morality, lets us know that there are some things we should do, and some things we should not do -- and that we don't do what we believe we should do, and that we do what we believe we should not do. Thus, there is no excuse, seeing that we know we are immoral and guilty.

kind regards
“Knowledge of the sciences is so much smoke apart from the heavenly science of Christ” -- John Calvin.
“I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels” -- John Calvin

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idunno

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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2012, 12:22:55 am »
troyjs wrote: That is the Christian view, ie. our conscience, although not a perfect guide as to morality, lets us know that there are some things we should do, and some things we should not do -- and that we don't do what we believe we should do, and that we do what we believe we should not do. Thus, there is no excuse, seeing that we know we are immoral and guilty.

kind regards



I have wondered about something in light of this natural theology that is less likely to be the standard Christian view.

In regards to those whom have never heard the name of Christ, is this natural theology sufficient to save or only condemn?

I realise that this question is a bit out there but this seems like a good place to ask.



“...these things- the beauty, the memory of our past- …are not the thing itself; they are only the scent of a flower we have not found, the echo of a tune we have not heard, news from a country we have never visited.”
- Clive

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Nightvid Cole

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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2012, 09:09:38 am »
Death is not caused by "sin". It is caused by injury or disease.

If your theology needs to assume something that has been disproven by science, I dare say there is a slight problem...

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idunno

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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2012, 07:32:22 pm »
That's just bad theology
“...these things- the beauty, the memory of our past- …are not the thing itself; they are only the scent of a flower we have not found, the echo of a tune we have not heard, news from a country we have never visited.”
- Clive

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Jared Baker

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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2012, 07:12:32 pm »
ncole1 wrote: Death is not caused by "sin". It is caused by injury or disease.

If your theology needs to assume something that has been disproven by science, I dare say there is a slight problem...

I don't even know where to begin. First of all, that is like saying, "Death is not caused by stupidity. Science has disproven that idea because no autopsy has ever revealed 'stupidity' as the cause of death." Second, you have a distorted understanding of the nature of scientific proof. Third, the kind of death Paul is concerned about is spiritual death, that is, alienation from ourselves and the One whose image we bear. Kierkegaard called this spiritual state "despair" and "the sickness unto death." Most Western Christians refer to it as "original sin," and Eastern Christians usually call it "ancestral sin." All human beings share this fallen condition, and the only answer is reconciliation through Jesus--the visible and uncorrupted image of the invisible God.

"I begin with the principle that all men are bores. Surely no one will prove himself so great a bore as to contradict me in this." - Søren Kierkegaard
"As soon as man began considering himself the source of the highest meaning in the world and the measure of everything, the world began to lose its

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idunno

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« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2012, 07:40:15 pm »
ya....so there
“...these things- the beauty, the memory of our past- …are not the thing itself; they are only the scent of a flower we have not found, the echo of a tune we have not heard, news from a country we have never visited.”
- Clive

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Nightvid Cole

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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2012, 03:42:00 pm »
Jared wrote:
Quote from: ncole1
Death is not caused by "sin". It is caused by injury or disease.

If your theology needs to assume something that has been disproven by science, I dare say there is a slight problem...

I don't even know where to begin. First of all, that is like saying, "Death is not caused by stupidity. Science has disproven that idea because no autopsy has ever revealed 'stupidity' as the cause of death." Second, you have a distorted understanding of the nature of scientific proof. Third, the kind of death Paul is concerned about is spiritual death, that is, alienation from ourselves and the One whose image we bear.



No. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU8H8o1f-yg

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Jared Baker

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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2012, 12:38:43 am »
ncole1 wrote: No. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU8H8o1f-yg

Yes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKZqGJONH68&ob=av2e

Nice presentation, and I assume the video you actually wanted me to watch is part two. I agree with his final conclusion, but since I understand the Genesis creation account as Ancient Near Eastern myth consciously revised and imbued with theological significance rather than merely an outdated treatise on natural philosophy, my interpretation is slightly different.

"I begin with the principle that all men are bores. Surely no one will prove himself so great a bore as to contradict me in this." - Søren Kierkegaard
"As soon as man began considering himself the source of the highest meaning in the world and the measure of everything, the world began to lose its