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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2012, 08:53:32 am »
you should look into living after faith podcast.  it is run by an ex preacher too.

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LNC

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« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2012, 10:24:36 am »
If this guy lived a lie for the better part of 17 years, I wonder why I should now start to believe what he is saying is veridical.  He lied to people who trusted him as an authority figure, most likely lied to people who he considered to be close friends and confidants, lied to his employer, and others.  Why? Because he liked the paycheck and the perks.  

This may seem a harsh critique, but I think we need to keep this "confession" in perspective and not think that suddenly, after over a decade of seriously deceiving others, that by moving toward a worldview that has no objective grounding of morality and truth, he is suddenly being fully forthright in his statements.  He very well may be, but I have no solid basis on which to believe that, and good reason to doubt it.

LNC


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Great Pumpkin

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« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2012, 10:35:56 am »
What absurd comments from theists.

   Btw, will any of you read Bultmann?
God is not the Father. At least, he's not apparent to me.

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phil nov

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« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2012, 11:09:39 am »
LNC,

Of course he didn't "live a lie" for 17 years. He just had doubt. Big difference. It doesn't follow at all that he lied to people who trusted him, and it certainly doesn't follow that it was because of the money.

That presupposes that he *knew* he didn't believe, which of course couldn't be further from the truth. He said it was a struggle.

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Nicholas Olsen

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« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2012, 11:55:54 am »
Dealing with doubt and believing to think what you're saying is a lie are 2 different things. WE see here that he really thought what he was believing himself was a lie and we see that he was afraid to confront others with the doubt due to potentially losing his perks. What we don't know is exactly where along in his ministry that he had these serious doubts at the level that is unhealthy for a pastor to continue to his role.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyb7SQefYMA

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phil nov

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« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2012, 12:06:16 pm »
Right. We're also not sure how convinced he was one way or the other, when he had doubt. So to state that he was a "horrible pastor" (paraphrasing) who consciously lied to people for money is a bit of a stretch



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Great Pumpkin

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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2012, 12:24:55 pm »
Apparently, 90% of all pastors are the same as this guy, but they realize the lower 50% of IQ's need religion and social services, and since these sub-100 IQ people have been brainwashed by the church that non-xians are evil, the non-xian pastors dont say anything.

   

   Its pretty sad, really.

   

   After all, only the lower IQ's beleive the stories, the ones who say they beleive are really just atheists trying not to hurt the poor people....

   

   
God is not the Father. At least, he's not apparent to me.

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Jared Baker

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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2012, 01:13:44 pm »
GreatPumpkin wrote: What absurd comments from theists.
Btw, will any of you read Bultmann?


What makes you think we aren't familiar with him?
"I begin with the principle that all men are bores. Surely no one will prove himself so great a bore as to contradict me in this." - Søren Kierkegaard
"As soon as man began considering himself the source of the highest meaning in the world and the measure of everything, the world began to lose its

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skunker

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« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2012, 01:15:03 pm »
I don't fault this guy for doing what he did. It's hard to make a living if you don't believe in what you are doing. This is very common in the work force! You have to love what you do. You have to believe in it. But, you have to understand that you will always be second-guessing yourself in everything. It's the nature of the beast. Do I second guess my faith? Yes, sometimes. But, that goes for everything I do, everything I buy, etc. A set of tires? I thought I made the right choice, but after a heavy rain, I wondered if I made the right choice.

I guess the only problem I have with his deconversion is that, like most, he did it because of the problem of evil. The POE is the bread and butter for Sam Harris, Ehrman, et al. Philosophically it should not be a problem for anyone.

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R. S. Martin

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« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2012, 01:37:12 pm »
Skunker, I think you are one of the more decent Christians on these forums. Thank you for your respectful post. I appreciated it.

Here's a question for you: Do you honestly think that Sam Harris et al don't have similar stories to this pastor regarding their own reasons for being atheist?

EDIT I'm not sure what you mean when you say that "Philosophically it should not be a problem for anyone." My own reasons for deconverting were purely philosophical--at least, they had nothing to do with sciences like physics and biology and evolution, if that is what you mean. And I'll reconvert any day when/if those problems can be solved.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12
exChristian.net Atheist Apologist

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Great Pumpkin

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« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2012, 01:44:53 pm »
Jared wrote:
Quote from: GreatPumpkin
What absurd comments from theists.
Btw, will any of you read Bultmann?


What makes you think we aren't familiar with him?

   Because you are still a Christian.  
God is not the Father. At least, he's not apparent to me.

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LNC

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« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2012, 03:00:45 pm »
philnov wrote: Right. We're also not sure how convinced he was one way or the other, when he had doubt. So to state that he was a "horrible pastor" (paraphrasing) who consciously lied to people for money is a bit of a stretch


philnov,  he said himself, "By not repudiating my career, I could not escape the feeling I was living a lie."  No one said he was a "horrible pastor", I was saying that I'm not sure that I can fully trust his reasoning and motivations now since he was living a lie for much of his career for somewhat selfish reasons.   Also, if you read his piece, you would have read his words saying, "I did not discuss my atheism with colleagues or parishioners. Facing lost wages, housing and benefits, I chose to remain silent."  Did he leave the with the impression that he believed the tenets of Christianity and that God existed?  Did he preach sermons about God, believing that the God of who he was speaking did not exist?  All of that is deceitful and equivalent to lying and it seems, based upon what he said in the quotes above, that he did it consciously and willfully to avoid losing his job, housing, and benefits.  

LNC

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LNC

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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2012, 03:06:38 pm »
GP,

I'm curious as to what arguments you believe Bultmann makes that would convince a Christian to abandon his or her faith?  Bultmann didn't believe a person could have access to the noumenal world, so any comments he made about God were based upon neo-Kantian presuppositions.  So, first a person would have to buy into the Kantian epistemology to accept Bultmann's conclusions and I think that Kant's presuppositions were self-defeating.  But, maybe you would care to make a defense of them and build your arguments as to why you believe that Bultmann got it right without committing the same logical mistakes.

LNC


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lucid

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« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2012, 03:22:42 pm »
Jared wrote:

The real pastor was not as ineloquent, but his reasons aren't much more sophisticated than those in the counter-example I provided.

I would counter that his actual reasons for deconverting were far different and much more sophisticated than your interpretation, i.e

"The bible sucks" and

"God is for weak minded weiners"

Any honest reading of the interview confirms this.


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lucid

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« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2012, 03:24:30 pm »
Becoming a little concerned with the tone the christians here have taken regarding this mans journey.