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JamesRedford

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The Aseity of God
« on: April 28, 2012, 10:11:39 am »
What is often regarded as *the* deepest and most perplexing question of all is why anything exists at all, as opposed to nothingness. But like the solution to many of the deepest of mankind's enigmata, the answer is actually quite simple and obvious once explicated.

For the details regarding that, see Sec. 7.2: "The Aseity of God" of my following article:

James Redford, "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Sept. 10, 2012 (orig. pub. December 19, 2011), 186 pp., doi:10.2139/ssrn.1974708. http://ssrn.com/abstract=1974708 , http://archive.org/search.php?query=t74t7n54x , http://scribd.com/doc/79273334 , http://theophysics.host56.com/Redford-Physics-of-God.pdf , http://webcitation.org/6Abfap2bp , http://flashmirrors.com/files/1foosl5woi2rgy2/Redford-Physics-of-God.pdf
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 05:58:11 pm by JamesRedford »
Author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), revised ed., Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2001) http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761 , http://theophysics.host56.com/anarchist-jesus.pdf
Theophysics: God Is the Ultimate Physicist (a website with information on Prof. Frank

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maranatha33

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The Aseity of God
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2012, 09:35:33 pm »
Dear Mr. Redford;
It is with great sadness that I have scanned your work.  Trying to perpetuate false doctrine by intertwining it with physics and mathematics, is a lost cause.  God is Spirit.  There are no human equations that can determine His knowledge.  
You obviously want to deny that Jesus told us to obey those in charge over us,...
The opposite of anarchy...


Romans13:1-7
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Ecclesiastes 8:2
Obey the king’s command, I say, because you took an oath before God.

Trying to determine the Truths of God by the human "wisdom" of calculations and theorems is in vain...

1Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”

If you want to know the Truth, compare Scripture ONLY against other Scripture, not a science text book.  

"Faith, Hope, and Love, and the greatest of these is Love."  None of these can be ascertained by any human computation.  

John 3:3...




M33

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JamesRedford

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The Aseity of God
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2012, 05:01:47 pm »
maranatha33 wrote: Dear Mr. Redford;
It is with great sadness that I have scanned your work.  Trying to perpetuate false doctrine by intertwining it with physics and mathematics, is a lost cause.  God is Spirit.  There are no human equations that can determine His knowledge. ...


Arithmetic doesn't apply to God, but traditional Christian theology has maintained that logic applies to God. The below Glossary entry for "supernatural" (pp. 133-134) from my article "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything" (Social Science Research Network, Apr. 9, 2012) explains why arithmetic cannot be applied to God (i.e., the Cosmological Singularity, which consists eternally of three hypostases in a homoousian triune, i.e., three distinct entities of the same substance [ousia]: the Final Singularity, the All-Presents Singularity and the Initial Singularity, which are the First, Second and Third Persons of the Trinity, respectively):

""
supernatural

a descriptor for a thing to which no possible laws of physics can be applied. In the sense used here [386], “supernatural” does not mean unnatural, nor does it mean
that it violates natural law--just as “superintelligent” does not mean unintelligent.

The cosmological singularity is quite literally supernatural, and it is the only supernatural entity that exists. While although no possible laws of physics can apply to the singularity, this does not mean that the singularity violates the laws of physics, as indeed the known laws of physics logically require the cosmological singularity to exist. Infinity doesn’t violate arithmetic. Rather, arithmetic doesn’t apply to infinity, as infinity is not a number on the real line R, which is the open interval (-infinity, +infinity); or to be more exacting, some arithmetical procedures can be applied to infinities [21; 78, p. 3], but not in a way that is useful for deriving physical results (e.g., infinity - 172.9 is still infinity). This is the precise reason why no laws of physics can apply to the singularity: because physical values are at infinity at the singularity, and hence arithmetic cannot be usefully applied to any physics equations involving those physical values. Yet the singularity does not violate the laws of physics. Rather, no physical law can apply to the singularity.

The foregoing uses physical law in the conventional sense to mean laws of nature confirmed through experimentation. While although no such laws can apply to the singularity, logic itself still applies to the singularity.

-----

Bibliography

[21] Michael Beeson and Freek Wiedijk, “The meaning of infinity in calculus and computer algebra systems”, Journal of Symbolic Computation, Vol. 39, No. 5 (May 2005), pp. 523–538, doi:10.1016/j.jsc.2004.12.002 , WebCite: 5y2sWJ58y, .

[78] Stanley N. Burris, Number Theoretic Density and Logical Limit Laws (Providence, RI: American Mathematical Society, 2001), AMS Mathematical Surveys and Monographs, Volume 86, ISBN 0821826662, LCCN 00048512.

[386] John A. Simpson and Edmund S. C. Weiner (Eds.), The Oxford English Dictionary (Oxford, UK: Clarendon Press, 2nd ed., 1989), ISBN 0198611862, LCCN 88005330.
""


... You obviously want to deny that Jesus told us to obey those in charge over us,...
The opposite of anarchy...


Your above statement is a Satanic Antichrist doctrine. Those who follow it will face condemnation upon the universal resurrection of the dead.

The entire purpose for me writing my article "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything" and my previous article "Jesus Is an Anarchist" is to save souls. My "Physics of God" article lets people know that God exists according to the known laws of physics (which have been confirmed by every experiment conducted to date) and that Christianity is objectively true, and then it explores the ethical implications of this so that people will know what conduct God requires of them so that they can make it into Heaven and not be condemned. My article "Jesus Is an Anarchist" is written for those who already regard themselves as Christian believers, and its purpose is to demonstrate the unavoidably Satanic nature of government so that they will not lose their souls by being deceived by this inherently Satanic institution.

Many people who think of themselves as Christians mistakenly believe that so long as they regard Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior that they will be saved, as if the invocation of Yeshua's name is a form of talisman. Howbeit, the Messiah said that salvation does not work this way (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

""
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
""

And as the Messiah said (Matthew 7:13,14, New King James Version; cf. Luke 13:24):

""
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
""

From this post by you, you obviously do not understand Christian doctrine as contained in the Bible, since Jesus Christ spoke about a massive End Time conspiracy to destroy all of the faithful by means of a world government and mandatory Satanic world religion (what the globalist oligarchy term their New World Order): viz., Matthew 24:1-25:46; Mark 13; Luke 21:5-36; Revelation--cf. Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22; Revelation 13:13,14; 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12.

As Jesus (see Mark 10:42-45; Matthew 20:25–28; Luke 22:25,26--cf. Luke 4:5-8; Matthew 4:8–10; John 12:31; 14:30; 16:8-11; Revelation 13:2; 19:19-21) and Paul (see 1 Corinthians 2:6-8; 15:23,24--cf. 2 Corinthians 4:3,4; Ephesians 6:12) make clear, all the governments of the world are under control by the side of evil, which is a message that can also be found in the Old Testament in the form of prophetically-imparted statements by God (see Psalm 110; Isaiah 24:21,22; Ezekiel 34:1-10; Hosea 8:4; Zechariah 10:3).

Jesus Christ never said anything like that which you attribute to Him above. Rather, what Jesus said is do not resist evil (referring to physical resistance), even unto death (see Sec. 8.1.2: "Life with God" of my article "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything"). This autmomatically makes government unchristian, since government is a regional monopoly on legal violence.

But a genuine Christian can never obey any order which violates Christ's Commandment of the Golden Rule, which unavoidably makes government illegitimate, as I apodictically demonstrate in Sec. 2: "The Golden Rule Unavoidably Results in Anarchism" of my following article:

James Redford, "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. at Anti-State.com on Dec. 19, 2001), doi:10.2139/ssrn.1337761, http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761 , http://www.webcitation.org/66AF4TMv3 .

My above article demonstrates the logically unavoidable anarchism of Jesus Christ's teachings as recorded in
   the New Testament (in addition to analyzing their context in relation to his actions, to the Tanakh, and to his apostles). It is logically complete on this subject, in the sense of its apodixis.


Romans13:1-7
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.


The following is from Sec. 6: "On Paul, Romans 13 and Titus 3:1" of my article "Jesus Is an Anarchist":

It is often claimed that Christians are required to submit to government, as this is supposedly what Paul commanded that we are supposed to do in Romans 13. Thus, Paul writes:

""
   Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.[32]
""

But in actual fact Paul never does tell us in the above excerpt from Romans 13 to submit to government!--at least certainly not as they have existed on Earth and are operated by men. In fact, Paul would be an outright, barefaced hypocrite were he to command anyone to do such a thing: for Paul himself did not submit to government, and if he had then he would not even have been alive to be able to write Romans 13. It is quite a good thing that Paul did disobey government, as we would not even know of a Paul in the Bible had he not disobeyed government. As when Paul was still known as Saul of Tarsus he escaped from the city of Damascus as he knew that the governor of that city, acting under the authority of Aretas the king, was coming with a garrison to arrest him in order that he be executed. This was right after Saul’s conversion to Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus. The Jews in Damascus, hearing of Saul’s conversion, plotted to kill him as a traitor to their cause in persecuting the Christians. Saul was let out of a window in the wall of Damascus under cover of night by some fellow disciples in Christ.[33] In none of Paul’s later writings does he dispraise, or disassociate himself from, these actions that he took in knowingly and purposely disobeying government: in fact, this very event is one of the things that he later cites in demonstration of his unwavering commitment to Christ![34]

Indeed, ever since Paul’s conversion to Jesus Christ, he spent the rest of his entire life in rebellion against mortal governments, and would at last--just as with Jesus before him--be executed by government, in this case by having his head chopped off. Paul was continuously in and out of prisons throughout his entire ministry for preaching the gospel of Christ; he was on five separate occasions lashed with stripes 39 times each by the “authorities” for preaching Christ; he was beaten with rods by the “authorities” for preaching Christ; and none of these rebellions of his did he ever reprehend: indeed he cited them all as evidence of his commitment to Jesus![35]

But even more importantly, if Paul is saying in Romans 13 what many people have said he meant, i.e., that people should obey mortal, Earthly governments, then it is questionable whether Paul could even be a genuine Christian. For as was pointed out above, Jesus would not even have existed as we know of today had it not been for Joseph and Mary intentionally disobeying king Herod the Great and escaping from his reach when they knew that Herod desired to destroy baby Jesus.[36] Thus, if indeed Paul meant in Romans 13 that we are to obey Earthly governments then this would mean that Paul would rather have Joseph and Mary obey king Herod the Great and turn baby Jesus over to be killed.

So what in the world is going on here with Paul and Romans 13? Is Paul a hypocrite? Is Paul being contradictory? Actually, No to both. Once again, as with Jesus’s answer to the question on taxes, this is another ingenious case of rhetorical misdirection. Paul was counting on the fact that most people who would be hostile to the Christian church--the Roman “authorities” in particular--would, upon reading Romans 13, naturally interpret it from the point of view of legal positivism: i.e., that such people would take for granted that the “governing authorities” and “rulers” spoken of must refer to the men who operate the governments on Earth. But never does Paul anywhere say that this is so! (Legal positivism is the doctrine that whichever gang is best able to overpower others with arms and might and thereby subjugate the populace and who then proceed to proclaim themselves the “authority” are on that account the rightful “Authority.”)

But before proceeding with the above analysis, what would the motive be for Paul to include such rhetorical misdirection in his letter to the people at the church of Rome? In answering this, it must be remembered that just as with Jesus, Paul was not free to say just anything that he wanted. The early Christians were a persecuted minority under the close surveillance of the Roman government as a possible threat to its power. Here is Biblical proof of this assertion written by Paul himself:

""
   And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.[37]
""

Paul never intended that his letter to the Roman church be kept secret, and he knew that it would be copied and distributed amongst the populace, and thus inevitably it would fall into the hands of the Roman government, especially considering that this letter was going directly into the belly of the beast itself: the city of Rome. Thus by including this in the letter to the church at Rome he would help put at ease the fears of the Roman government so that the persecution of the Christians would not be as severe and so that the more important task of the Church, that of saving people’s souls, could more easily continue unimpeded. But Paul wrote it in such a way that a truly knowledgeable Christian at the time would have no doubt as to what was actually meant.

The Church leaders at the time would have known that Paul obviously couldn’t have meant the people who control the mortal gover
   nments as they exist on Earth when he referred to the “governing authorities” and “rulers” in Romans 13, for that would have made Paul a shameless hypocrite and also meant that he would desire that baby Jesus had been killed (for surely the histories of Paul and Jesus’s lives would have been fresh on their minds). The only answer that can make any sense of this seeming riddle is that one doesn’t actually become a true “governing authority” or “ruler” simply because one has managed by way of deception, terror, murder and might to subjugate a certain population and then proceed to thereby proclaim oneself the “King” or the “Authority” or the “Ruler.” Instead, what Paul is saying is that the only true and real authorities are only those who God appoints, i.e., one cannot become a real authority or ruler in the eyes of God simply because through force of arms one has managed to subjugate a population and then proclaim oneself the potentate. Thus, by saying this Paul was actually rebuking the supposed authority of the mortal governments as they exist on Earth and are operated by men!

“Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God”38 leaves wide open the possibility that those who control the mortal governments on Earth are not true authorities as appointed by God. The fallacy most people make when encountering a statement such as this is to unthinkingly and automatically assume that Paul must be referring to the people in control of the mortal governments that exist on Earth--for after all, don’t these people who run these Earthly governments call themselves the “governing authorities”? Do they not teach their subjects from birth that they are the “rulers” and the “authorities”? But when we factor in the life histories of both Jesus and Paul, then it can leave no room for doubt: Paul most certainly could not have been referring in Romans 13 to the people who control the mortal governments as they exist on Earth--otherwise Paul would be an outright hypocrite as well as an advocate of deicide against baby Jesus. Indeed, God Himself directly confirms this very thing as He spoke to Hosea: “They set up kings, but not by Me; / They made princes, but I did not acknowledge them.”[39]

Let us continue with this analysis as it specifically concerns Romans 13:3,4:

""
   For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
""

Here Paul uses deep Christian references to logically code his necessarily actual message, for Jesus Christ said that all who bear the sword do indeed bear it in vain.[40] So why is Paul seemingly here contradicting Jesus Christ’s own teachings on this matter? In order to reconcile the apparent contradiction and hence to comprehend what Paul is in actuality saying here requires a firm understanding of early Christian terminology, such as used by Jesus and the original Church fathers. Paul is not talking about a literal sword, i.e., actual physical force, such as used by all the Earthly, mortal governments. Paul is talking about the Word of God,[41] which is the sword that Jesus Christ bears,[42] and which figurative sword is none other than simply the truth. This is the only “sword” not borne in vain. This is also the figurative “fire” that Jesus came to send to the Earth43--that figurative “fire” being the Word of God, i.e., the truth.

As Paul wrote in his letters concerning the pretended “authorities” of the mortal, Earthly governments:

""
   However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.[44]
""

Further,

""
   Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.[45]

   Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.[46]
""

What the above passages clearly demonstrate is that Paul certainly did indeed think that the mortal, Earthly rulers were a terror to good works. Paul even wrote that “the rulers of this age … are coming to nothing”!

Paul elsewhere wrote that the only genuine potentate is Jesus Christ, saying that Jesus “is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords.”[47] But as true Christians, being members in the body of Christ,[48] we are co-potentates along with Jesus[49]--but only insofar as we remain within the Spirit of Christ. If were were to pick up and use a literal sword, i.e., if we were to use actual aggressive physical force such as the mortal, Earthly governments do, then we would be doing so in vain,[50] and would no longer be acting under the authority of Jesus as the only true potentate. In other words, we are to speak the hard, hated and dangerous truth, such as regarding the inherently diabolical nature of government. This is our sword, and it is the only sword which is not borne in vain.

But, some may inquire, what about Paul telling us to pay taxes in Romans 13:6–7? Thus, Paul wrote:

""
   For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.[51]
""

But does Paul really tell us to pay taxes here? Again, just as with Jesus, nowhere does Paul actually tell anyone to pay any taxes! Paul continues with the rhetorical misdirection that he started in the beginning of Romans 13, knowing--just as Jesus knew before him--that those who would be hostile to the Christian church would automatically assume what they are predisposed to assume: i.e., that the taxes and customs “due” are due to those in control of the governments who levy them. But here Paul was being wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove, as Paul never said any such thing. For when Paul says “Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs” this just begs the question: To whom are taxes and customs due? The answer to which could quite possibly be “No one.” And this is precisely how Paul proceeds to answer his own question-begging statement, in Romans 13:8–10:

""
   Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
""

So there we have it in no uncertain terms: owe no one anything except to love one another! Yet since when have taxes ever had the slightest thing to do with love? As was explained above, all mortal governments throughout history steal and extort wealth from their subjects which they call “taxes,” yet at the same time governments make it illegal for their subjects to steal from each other or from the government. Thus in taxes we see that historically all governments do to their subjects what they outlaw their subjects to do to them. Thus, all Earthly, mortal governments, by levying taxes, break the Golden Rule which Jesus
   commanded everyone as the supreme law.

In the earlier discussion on Jesus and taxes we learned that when Jesus said “Give on to Caesar that which is Caesar’s and give unto the Lord that which is the Lord’s” he was, in effect, actually saying that one need not give anything to Caesar: as nothing is rightly his, considering that everything that Caesar has has been taken by theft and extortion.

And what of Paul writing in Titus 3:1: “Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work”? As was clearly demonstrated above, Paul was referring to the true higher authorities as recognized by God, not to the diabolical, Satanic, mortal governments as they have existed on Earth--as Paul spent his entire ministry in rebellion against the Earthbound, mortal “authorities,” and was at last put to death by them.[52]

And as further proof of this, consider Paul’s advice to Christians as regarding being judged by what the government considers the “authority”:

""
   Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

   Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren![53]
""

Paul said that the government judges “are least esteemed by the church to judge”! It is clear that he considered them to be no authority at all!

But moreover, even Jesus didn’t consider the Earthly, mortal “rulers” to be true rulers and authorities! Thus, as Mark records:

""
   But Jesus called them to Himself and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”[54]
""

By saying this Jesus was in fact rebuking the supposed “authority” of the Earthly “rulers”! Just because mortals on Earth may consider someone to be an “authority” and “ruler” does not mean that God considers them to be so!

-----

Notes:

32
   Romans 13:1–7.
33
   See Acts 9:23–25.
34
   See 2 Corinthians 11:22–33.
35
   Ibid.
36
   See Matthew 2:13,14.
37
   Galatians 2:4,5.
38
   Romans 13:1.
39
   Hosea 8:4.
40
   See Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10.
41
   See Ephesians 6:17.
42
   See Matthew 10:34; Hebrews 4:12; Revelation 1:16; 19:15,21.
43
   See Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16; 12:49. See also Matthew 10:34.
44
   1 Corinthians 2:6–8.
45
   2 Timothy 2:8,9.
46
   2 Timothy 3:12.
47
   1 Timothy 6:15. See also 1 Timothy 1:17; Acts 17:6,7; James 4:12.
48
   See 1 Corinthians 12:12–27; Romans 12:5; Ephesians 5:30.
49
   See 1 Corinthians 6:1–8; Luke 12:57; 22:30; Revelation 5:10; Daniel 7:27.
50
   See Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10.
51
   Romans 13:6,7.
52
   For other cases of righteous disobedience to government recorded in the Bible, see Exodus 1:15–2:3; 1 Samuel 19:10–18; Esther 4:16; Daniel 3:12–18; 6:10; Matthew 2:12,13; Luke 23:8,9; Acts 5:29; 9:25; 17:6–8; 2 Corinthians 11:32,33.
53
   1 Corinthians 6:1–8.
54
   Mark 10:42–45. See also Matthew 18:4; 20:25–28; Mark 9:35; Luke 22:25,26.


Ecclesiastes 8:2
Obey the king’s command, I say, because you took an oath before God.


Peter and the other apostles said that "We ought to obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29.)

All governments are inherently Satanic because all governments do the opposite of the Golden Rule which Jesus Christ commanded as the supreme law: instead doing unto others as they would have others do unto them, they instead do unto others what they *do not* want others doing unto them (e.g., by using violence to compel people to pay taxes and to gain a coercive regional monopoly by excluding competitors, which are practices they treat as crimes if their subjects attempt to engage in them).

The New Testament is quite clear that all the governments of the world are Satanic and are ruled by Satan, and that all of the rulers on the Earth face condemntation. During the Second Coming, all of the governments will be abolished by Jesus Christ and all of their leaders punished (see Sec. 20: "Jesus Will Overthrow All the Governments of the World and Punish All the Rulers in the Time of His Judgement (i.e., His Second Coming)" of my article "Jesus Is an Anarchist"). The following are some pertinent Biblical passages on this issue (New King James Version):

1 Corinthians 2:6-8: However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1 Corinthians 15:23,24: But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

2 Corinthians 4:3,4: But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Ephesians 6:12: For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Luke 4:5-8: Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours."

And Jesus answered and said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.'" [See also Matt. 4:8-10.]

Revelation 13:2: Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon [Satan] gave him his power, his throne, and great authority [i.e., over all the governments of the earth].

John 12:31: [Jesus:] "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out."

John 14:30: [Jesus:] "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me."

John 16:8-11: [Jesus:] "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."

Revelation 19:19-21: And I saw the beast, t
   he kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest [i.e., all the kings of the earth and their armies] were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.


Trying to determine the Truths of God by the human "wisdom" of calculations and theorems is in vain...
1Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”
If you want to know the Truth, compare Scripture ONLY against other Scripture, not a science text book.  
"Faith, Hope, and Love, and the greatest of these is Love."  None of these can be ascertained by any human computation.  
John 3:3...


Paul's passage of 1 Corinthians 3:19 reinforces the correctness of the Omega Point/Feynman-DeWitt-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model Theory of Everything (TOE), which is logically required by the known laws of physics (i.e., the Second Law of Thermodynamics, General Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics), since the physics community are abandoning the known laws of physics because they do not like the theological implications of said known physical laws (see Sec. 5: "The Big Bang" of my article "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything" for history regarding this antagonism of the modern scientific community for religion, resulting in them abandoning known physical laws)). Instead, with proposed physics theories such as String Theory and so on--none of which have any experimental confirmation--the physics community is reverting back to the methodology of Aristotelianism, which held to physical theories based upon philosophical ideals. In the modern era, one of those philosophical ideals held by the physics community is that God must not exist, and so if rejecting the existence of God requires rejecting empirical science, then so be it.

Thus, your use of this passage actually argues very much in favor of the Omega Point TOE, for indeed the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, and the world regards truth as foolish (see 1 Corinthians 4:10).
Author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), revised ed., Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2001) http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761 , http://theophysics.host56.com/anarchist-jesus.pdf
Theophysics: God Is the Ultimate Physicist (a website with information on Prof. Frank

3

maranatha33

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« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2012, 10:16:03 pm »

Mr. Redford;

Thank you for your response.  Here are the points of contention...

 

Human logic does not apply to God.  Christianity teaches that the way to know God is through Jesus Christ, not some man made logic.

 

By definition, "supernatural" is beyond nature.  Why would anything be beyond nature if it is natural?

 

My statement is Scriptural about obeying those that God has chosen to be in charge.  Your implication that anything but the atonement of Christ is a determining factor in eternal judgment, is not Biblical.  

Romans 13:1-7 is very clear on how we are to obey our appointed (by God Himself) leaders.

 

Your purpose will not save souls.  It will condemn them.  Salvation is exclusively found in the propitiation of Jesus' sacrifice, and no human can save anybody...

 

To say there are experiments that determine that God exists according to the laws of physics is questionable at best.

 

Acts 2:21   “And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

Romans 10:13  “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

The act of calling on the name of the Lord encompasses being "born again".  That is His "Calling Card" if you will.  If someone claims to be Christian, but is not born again (John 3:3) the Lord will not acknowledge him.  

 

2Tim 3:14-17.   “But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

 

"God Breathed" by definition means perfect.  If any interpretation of Scripture directly contradicts other Scripture, that interpretation is wrong.

 

You have done an impressive amount of research, and quite a scholarly work.  The problem is that you do not hold to the Truth of Scripture.  A question, “Have you been born again?” as Jesus commands (not suggests)

 

Your whole dissertation can be Biblically summed up in one word.  That is "works".

 

Eph 2:8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

Isa 64:6  All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts (works) are like filthy rags;

 

“Works” will not save.  They are the fruit of those who have been saved, or the vain efforts of those who believe that they will save.

The basic Truths of Christianity;

 

God in Christ created all things.  

 

Man rebelled against God, causing separation from God, and the introduction of evil into what God had made "good".

 

God promised a Savior to atone for this sin.  He gave over 300 Messianic Prophecies in the Old Testament to identify the Savior.

 

Jesus Christ is that Savior.

 

His blood is the atonement for our sins.

 

We can only receive this atonement by dying to self, and being made alive in Christ.  This is known as being born again.

 

Works ranging from "good deeds" to “scholarly writings” will not save.

 

As the Bible clearly says... Sola Fida, faith alone... through Sola Scriptura, the Scriptures alone, is the only way for salvation.

 

Faith, and only faith in Christ, is our exclusive path to salvation…

 

 

 

M33

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JamesRedford

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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2012, 02:21:24 pm »
maranatha33 wrote:
Mr. Redford;

Thank you for your response.  Here are the points of contention...

Human logic does not apply to God.  Christianity teaches that the way to know God is through Jesus Christ, not some man made logic.


Your above statement is a rejection of the traditional Christian doctrine on this matter. It is precisely because Christianity held that God is rational and that He never violates logic or natural law that natural science as a systematic discipline was developed. For history on this matter, see Sec. 6: "Science Comes Home" and the Glossary entry "miracle" of my article "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything".

I'll also here note the irony of you making such an antirational argument on the ReasonableFaith.org forum, since Prof. William Lane Craig's life's work is in showing how logic, reason and science demonstrate God's existence and the truth of Christianity. Or maybe that's not ironic, as perhaphs you came to this forum in order to argue against Craig's intellectual program.

As well, if logic could actually be violated, then no coherent argument could ever be advanced for the truth of Christianity, since logic must be used in any argument.

Moreover, God is logic itself, as God is the Logos (John 1:1-5; cf. John 14:6), which means logic, computation, thought, reason, cogitation, ratiocination, cerebration, cognition, mentation. How can God violate Himself?


By definition, "supernatural" is beyond nature.  Why would anything be beyond nature if it is natural?


God is beyond nature in the sense of beyond creation, i.e., spacetime. For more on this, see Sec. 7.3: "The Trinity of God" of my article "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything". But this does not mean that God is unnatural, in the sense that He violates natural law.


My statement is Scriptural about obeying those that God has chosen to be in charge. ...


As God spoke to Hosea: "They set up kings, but not by Me; / They made princes, but I did not acknowledge them." (Hosea 8:4, New King James Version.)

Your error is in thinking that those who mortals on Earth call "authorities", "leaders" and "rulers" are considered to be so by God, but God as spoken to Hosea states that this is not the case. Jesus Christ also states that those who are government leaders are not true authorities as so regarded by God (Mark 10:42-45, New King James Version; cf. Matthew 18:4; 20:25-28; Mark 9:35; Luke 22:25,26):

""
But Jesus called them to Himself and said to them, "You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
""


...  Your implication that anything but the atonement of Christ is a determining factor in eternal judgment, is not Biblical.


Belief in Jesus Christ is the only thing that determines one's salvation.

Yet if one worships Satan and calls Satan by the name of "Jesus Christ", that is blasphemy. The only way one can worship Jesus Christ is to do so in actual fact, not with empty words (even if those empty words are spoken to oneself and believed by oneself).

If one does not follow the Command of Jesus Christ, then one does not actually believe in Jesus Christ. Instead, one believes in a lie. Attaching the name of "Jesus Christ" to this lie is of no help, as Jesus made clear (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

""
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
""

When Jesus said of Himself, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6, New King James Version; cf. John 11:25), He was there being as literal as it is possible to be. In other words, the Second Person of the Trinity is literally truth itself, i.e., the Logos (see John 1:1-5).

That is to say, the only way one comes to the Father is through truth. The labels humans attach to various ideas and actions are irrelevant. What matters is the actual content of those ideas and actions. The only way one can actually believe in Jesus Christ is to follow His Command. If one does not follow His Command, then one believes not in Jesus Christ, but instead in a lie, no matter what labels one attaches to that lie.

And since Jesus's Command of the Golden Rule is a binary option--to not follow it is to do the opposite of it--such a lie is necessarily a Satanic lie. If one does not worship Jesus Christ in actual fact, then one worships Satan in actual fact.

For more on this, see Sec. 7.4.4: "The Soteriology of Existence" and Sec. 8.1.2: "Life with God" of my article "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything".


Romans 13:1-7 is very clear on how we are to obey our appointed (by God Himself) leaders.


Then according to you, we are to obey Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse-tung, and Pol Pot among many other mass-murderers in history. The soldiers and police who carried out these mass-slaughters, tortures and rapes against innocent noncombatants were simply acting as good Christians--at least on this specific issue--by obeying their orders.

Are we then also to obey the Beast govermment when it eventually calls on people to worship it and accept the Mark of the Beast?

Do you not see how you are advancing a pervertedly sick Satanic doctrine in the above? Are you given over to evil so completely that you think that said leaders were appointed by God such that the masses ought to rightfully follow them? Based upon the demonic doctrine that you are advancing here, you have learned nothing of substance from the life story of Jesus Christ, of which the central struggle throughout His ministry was that of overcoming the mortal "authorities", "leaders" and "rulers", of who eventually murdered Him.

Indeed, the cross upon which Jesus was hung is a device of overt government terrorism. Thus the Christian symbolism of the cross represents not merely triumph over death, but also triumph over government, even in death--making the Christian cross the ultimate anarchist symbol.

But as God the Father (see Hosea 8:4) and God the Son (see Matthew 7:21-27; cf. Luke 6:46-49) made clear, the government leaders are *not* appointed by God. Thus, your perverted Satanic doctrine goes directly against Scripture.

Your error is in assuming that those who fallen men consider to be "authorities", "leaders" and "rulers" are those who God rightfully considers to be so. I noticed that you have an intellectual inability to get past empty surface-labels and beliefs, which is a hallmark of a puerile mind. The idea that fallen humans could be mistaken as to who is a genuine authority--i.e., as so regarded by God--appare
   ntly hasn't occurred to you.

In Romans 13 Paul uses deep Christian references to logically code his necessarily actual message, for Jesus Christ said that all who bear the sword do indeed bear it in vain (see Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10). So why is Paul seemingly here contradicting Jesus Christ's own teachings on this matter? In order to reconcile the apparent contradiction and hence to comprehend what Paul is in actuality saying here requires a firm understanding of early Christian terminology, such as used by Jesus and the original Church fathers. Paul is not talking about a literal sword, i.e., actual physical force, such as used by all the Earthly, mortal governments. Paul is talking about the Word of God (see Ephesians 6:17), which is the sword that Jesus Christ bears (see Matthew 10:34; Hebrews 4:12; Revelation 1:16; 19:15,21), and which figurative sword is none other than simply the truth. This is the only "sword" not borne in vain.

Paul elsewhere wrote that the only genuine potentate is Jesus Christ, saying that Jesus "is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords." (1 Timothy 6:15, New King James Version. Cf. 1 Timothy 1:17; Acts 17:6,7; James 4:12.) But true Christians, being members in the body of Christ (see 1 Corinthians 12:12–27; Romans 12:5; Ephesians 5:30), are co-potentates along with Jesus (see 1 Corinthians 6:1–8; Luke 12:57; 22:30; Revelation 5:10; Daniel 7:27)--but only insofar as they remain within the Spirit of Christ. If one were to pick up and use a literal sword, i.e., if one were to use actual aggressive physical force such as all the mortal, Earthly governments do, then one would be doing so in vain (see Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10), and would no longer be acting under the authority of Jesus as the only true potentate. In other words, we are to speak the hard, hated and dangerous truth, such as regarding the inherently diabolical nature of government. This is our sword, and it is the only sword which is not borne in vain.

That is to say, the only genuine authorities, leaders and rulers as so regarded by God are those who abide by Jesus Christ's Commandment of the Golden Rule. All governments are inherently Satanic because all governments do the opposite of the Golden Rule which Jesus Christ commanded as the supreme law: instead doing unto others as they would have others do unto them, they instead do unto others what they *do not* want others doing unto them (e.g., by using violence to compel people to pay taxes and to gain a coercive regional monopoly by excluding competitors, which are practices they treat as crimes if their subjects attempt to engage in them).


Your purpose will not save souls.  It will condemn them. ...


You are the one who worships Satan and blasphemes God's name by calling Satan "Jesus Christ".

I worship Jesus Christ in actual fact, and I demand that others do so as well. Only by worshiping Christ can one be saved. But the only way one can genuinely worship Jesus Christ is by following His Command.


... Salvation is exclusively found in the propitiation of Jesus' sacrifice, and no human can save anybody...


In Sec. 8.2.2: "The Mark of the Beast" and Sec. 9: "The Omega Point Cosmology Vis-à-Vis the New Testament" of my article "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", I demonstrate that the events spoken of by the Messiah (see Matthew 24:1-25:46; Mark 13; Luke 21:5-36) and divinely imparted to John of Patmos (see Revelation) regarding the End Time tribulation are true and are going to take place. Jesus Christ said that no flesh would survive the tribulation during the End Time without His intervention, i.e., His Second Coming (see Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20)--the aforecited sections demonstrate that this statement by Jesus is correct: the faithful's transformation into their immortal bodies and the foundation of Heaven on Earth will only come about due to Jesus Christ's Second Coming. See also pp. 8 and 11 within Sec. 2: "History of the Omega Point Cosmology" for further discussion on how the miracles of Jesus Christ are allowed within the known laws of physics.


To say there are experiments that determine that God exists according to the laws of physics is questionable at best.


It is precisely because Christianity held that God is rational and that He never violates logic or natural law that natural science as a systematic discipline was developed. The main motivating factor in the birth of empirical science was to better know the mind of God. For history on this matter, see Sec. 6: "Science Comes Home" and the Glossary entry "miracle" of my article "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything".


Acts 2:21   “And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Romans 10:13  “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

The act of calling on the name of the Lord encompasses being "born again".  That is His "Calling Card" if you will.  If someone claims to be Christian, but is not born again (John 3:3) the Lord will not acknowledge him.


Then you're here agreeing with me that it's not the words that matter, but the actual substance of one's beliefs and actions which determine whether or not one is a genuine Christian. Jesus made clear that such is correct (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

""
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
""

That is, the only way that one can genuinely "call upon the name of the Lord" (see Acts 2:21; Romans 10:13; Joel 2:32) is by following the Command of Jesus Christ (see Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).


2Tim 3:14-17.    “But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

"God Breathed" by definition means perfect.  If any interpretation of Scripture directly contradicts other Scripture, that interpretation is wrong.


Then per your above criteria, your interpretation of Scripture is wrong, since it directly contradicts Scripture. As God the Father (see Hosea 8:4) and God the Son (see Matthew 7:21-27; cf. Luke 6:46-49) made clear, the government leaders are *not* appointed by God.

The New Testament is quite clear that all the governments of the world are Satanic and are ruled by Satan, and that all of the rulers on the Earth face condemntation. During the Second Coming, all of the governments will be abolished by Jesus Christ and all of their leaders punished (see Sec. 20: "Jesus Will Overthrow All the Governments of the World and Punish All the Rulers in the Time of His Judgement (i.e., His Second Coming)" of my article "Jesus Is an Anarchist"). The following are some pertine
   nt Biblical passages on this issue (New King James Version):

1 Corinthians 2:6-8: However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1 Corinthians 15:23,24: But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

2 Corinthians 4:3,4: But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Ephesians 6:12: For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Luke 4:5-8: Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours."

And Jesus answered and said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.'" [See also Matt. 4:8-10.]

Revelation 13:2: Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon [Satan] gave him his power, his throne, and great authority [i.e., over all the governments of the earth].

John 12:31: [Jesus:] "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out."

John 14:30: [Jesus:] "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me."

John 16:8-11: [Jesus:] "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."

Revelation 19:19-21: And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest [i.e., all the kings of the earth and their armies] were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.


Paul spent his entire ministry in rebellion against government "authorities" and was continiously in and out of prisons. So Paul himself obviously had no qualms about disobeying government "authorities".

Paul never said in Romans 13 to obey the mortal, pretended "authorities". Paul was referring to Jesus Christ in Romans 13, Who "is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords." (1 Timothy 6:15, New King James Version. Cf. 1 Timothy 1:17; Acts 17:6,7; James 4:12.) The "sword" spoken of by Paul here is not a literal sword--all of which indeed are borne in vain (see Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10)--but rather the Word of God (see Ephesians 6:17), which is the sword that Jesus Christ bears (see Matthew 10:34; Hebrews 4:12; Revelation 1:16; 19:15,21).

Nor did Paul ever say to pay taxes in Romans 13. Your error is in mistakenly thinking that something was said when in actuality it was never said. You're attributing to Scripture something which isn't there. Paul said "For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor" (Romans 13:6,7, New King James Version), which Paul immediately follows by writing (Romans 13:8-10, New King James Version),

""
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
""

So according to Paul's immediate follow-up, taxes and customs aren't due to anyone.

For more on this subject, see Sec. 6: "On Paul, Romans 13 and Titus 3:1" of my following article:

James Redford, "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. at Anti-State.com on Dec. 19, 2001), doi:10.2139/ssrn.1337761, http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761 , http://www.webcitation.org/66AF4TMv3 .


You have done an impressive amount of research, and quite a scholarly work.  The problem is that you do not hold to the Truth of Scripture. ...


I hold to the truth of Scripture far more than you do. This is the problem with many who falsely call themselves "Christians": they feel perfectly free to ignore the teachings of Jesus Christ because that is how they were raised by this world, i.e., that one needn't actually take Jesus Christ's teachings seriously, since said teachings are incompatible with government and its frequent activities, e.g., taxes, war, the inversion of genuine moral understanding, the sowing of needless discord and strife among the populace (i.e., divide et impera), etc. Jesus anticipated the phenomenon of ersatz Christianity in Matthew 7:15-27; cf. Luke 6:46-49.

For more on this, see Sec. 7.4.2: "God's Relation to the Old Testament", Sec. 7.4.3: "Ha'Mashiach", Sec. 7.4.4: "The Soteriology of Existence" and Sec. 8.1.2: "Life with God" of my article "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything". See also the below interview of and article on Rev. George B. Zabelka, the Catholic military chaplain who blessed the pilots who dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Emmanuel Charles McCarthy, interview of George B. Zabelka, "A Military Chaplain Repents", conducted ca. 1984; transcript available on the website of the Center for Christian Nonviolence, http://www.centerforchristiannonviolence.org/data/Media/Fr.%20George%20Zabekla%20Interview%20%5B02%5D.pdf , http://www.webcitation.org/5tsZZkQVM .

Emmanuel Charles McCarthy, "George Zabelka: A Man Transfigured", The Sign of Peace: Journal of the Catholic Peace Fellowship, Vol. 2, No. 3 (Ordinary Time 2003), pp. 4-5, http://www.catholicpeacefellowship.org/downloads/sopII3.pdf , http://www.webcitation.org/5tsZbKqQB .


... A question, “Have you been born again?” as Jesus commands (not suggests)


As I wrote in App. C: "Biography of the Author" of my article "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything":

""
Born in Austin, Texas and raised in the Leander, Texas hill country, James Redford is a born-again Christian who was converted from atheism by a direct revelation from Jesus Christ. He is a scientific rationalist who concludes that the Omega Point (i.e., the physicists' technical term for God) and the Feynman-DeWitt-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model Theory of Everything (TOE) are an unavoidable result of the known laws of physics.
""


Your whole dissertation can be Biblically summed u
   p in one word.  That is "works".

Eph 2:8,9  For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Isa 64:6  All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts (works) are like filthy rags;

“Works” will not save.  They are the fruit of those who have been saved, or the vain efforts of those who believe that they will save.

The basic Truths of Christianity;

God in Christ created all things.

Man rebelled against God, causing separation from God, and the introduction of evil into what God had made "good".

God promised a Savior to atone for this sin.  He gave over 300 Messianic Prophecies in the Old Testament to identify the Savior.

Jesus Christ is that Savior.

His blood is the atonement for our sins.

We can only receive this atonement by dying to self, and being made alive in Christ.  This is known as being born again.

Works ranging from "good deeds" to “scholarly writings” will not save.

As the Bible clearly says... Sola Fida, faith alone... through Sola Scriptura, the Scriptures alone, is the only way for salvation.

Faith, and only faith in Christ, is the exclusive path to salvation…


Christ said that one must be born again to enter the kingdom of God (see John 3:3,7; cf. 1 Peter 1:23). But the only way in which one can be born again is by rejecting the inequities of this world and abiding in Christ's Command. If one does not follow the Command of Jesus Christ, then one does not actually believe in Jesus Christ. Instead, one believes in a lie. Attaching the name of "Jesus Christ" to this lie is of no help, as Jesus made clear (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

""
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
""
Author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), revised ed., Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2001) http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761 , http://theophysics.host56.com/anarchist-jesus.pdf
Theophysics: God Is the Ultimate Physicist (a website with information on Prof. Frank

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maranatha33

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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2012, 04:02:04 pm »
My statement was about "Human" logic. Too many times do I see that someone's idea of logic supersedes truth, simply because they think it to be true.  God is perfect.  His logic is, as well.  We can identify His Work by His characteristics, but not by a man made presumption of logic.

Dr. Craig consistantly differentiates his scientific knowledge from personal spiritual beliefs.  His arguments are that science supports theism.  His Christianity may argue for the logic of the empty tomb, but they do not reach the Spiritual side, since that can not be defined by any type of logic.

How can logic verify personal testimony of a believer?  If I tell you I believe because my heart has been changed by Jesus, where does your logic validate this witness?

I think we agree on God being beyond creation, yet acting within a natural world.

The verse in Hosea says what is done in opposition to God's Will, not in accordance.

Mark 10:42-45.  This is in reference to James and John's request to sit at the right and left of Jesus in Heaven.  This is what they thought greatness would be.  Jesus does not deny the position of the rulers and "great ones", He is differentiating between heaven and earth.  Heavenly greatness is the opposite of earthly greatness.  We are instructed to be subserviant to the earthly leaders, and commanded to serve them as He serves us with His life for our salvation.  The only exception is if a directive is in complete opposition to God's Will, then we must serve God, first.

I would contend that Faith in Jesus Christ is what saves.  But I do not feel able to differentiate between Belief and Faith adequately.

The only way to worship Jesus is to be born again, receive the Holy Spirit, and be guided into all truth by the counsellor.  At that point, we are to choose actions that are in accordance to Will of God, with the help of the Holy Spirit.  Our salvation is not determined by works.  Rather, works show if we belong to God.

Agree on Jesus being truth, as well as the way to salvtion and the life in eternity, starting on earth.

Here is where we start our differences.  In John 1, Jesus is the Logos, which means "Word".  Truth is a part of it, since God's Will and His word are always true.  But the ultimate will of God is to "believe in the One He has sent."  When you say that the only way one comes to the Father is Truth, that means through Jesus, not by always making "true" statements.  You are now on the works = salvation track.  And that is not Truth.  Truth is of God, and lies are of satan, we agree... but this is not what our salvation is based upon.  A true believer (with the Holy Spirit) will still sin at times, I can attest to that.  But once we have been saved, our works can not save or condemn us.  The only unpardonable sin is to reject the Holy Spirit.  We, and our sin nature, were "bought with a price" the Blood of Jesus.  Our new life makes us want to be obedient to the Lord, but it does not stop our failures.  We confess and repent, and try to do better.  But these are still works, and that is the opposite of what saves, that is His Work... our propitiation.

I can sum up the rest of my reply easily.  Isa 64:6  "our works are like filthy rags before Him."  Following Jesus' command for salvation is ONLY based in being born again.  Believing that our efforts save ourselves cheapens the price that Jesus paid for us.  Eternity is based on only one question... Who is Jesus?  If He is truly one's sole path to salvation, God sees us as perfect through Jesus' blood and we spend eternity with Him.  If Jesus is anything but the complete method and Person of salvation, then one has elevated one's self above Christ, and has no acceptable method for forgiveness...and is condemned.  Good works are a result of salvation, NOT a path to it...  Thanks for your time and responses.  God Bless.









M33

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troyjs

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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2012, 02:47:16 am »
Greetings,

It seems that James wants to maintain the traditional orthodox theology concerning God, however he rejects orthodox doctrine regarding government. Whether or not James is correct in his interpretation of Jesus, it is not true that James is trying to be traditional, or have a traditional view. If James does not believe that the traditional view is correct, why then does he believe that it is important to consider, in regards to logic and God?

Nevertheless, it seems that James is not aware that traditionaly, logic only applies to God analogically. The scholastics considered the philosophical problem of language and theology, and maintained that human language applied to God only analogically. A proposition then, of which can be logically scrutinised, is true to the extent that it is analogically true. Perhaps James rejects the doctrine of analogy, and I would be with him on this point. However, it is not true for him to say, that traditionally, logic has applied to God according to christian theology. This is the Van Tillian explanation for how God could be both a person, and three persons. The credal distinction between essence and subsistence or existence, was writen in a specific context, with the intention of making a distinction between the persons of the Trinity, denying modalism. James' contention that arithmetic does not apply to God however, seems to require the doctrine of analogy. If arithmetical predication does not apply to God, then what do we mean when we say God is one? Do we mean the same thing, as when we say that a tree is one? Can a tree be one and three? If an entity can not be one and three in the same sense, then why say that logic applies to God, but arithmetic does not? Does any word in human language properly apply to God? If so, then why not the case of identity? To say that x exists, is to say that, 'There is an x, of which has properties p and R. To say that 'there is an x', is to say that one x exists. Perhaps James has solved the problem of 'quantifying in'. If James has solved the problem of quantifying in, then there is necessarily a distinction between God's existence, and our existence, as pertaining to existence per se.

Further than that, James seems not to understand that Jesus taught that we should do the will of the Father. Casting out demons or miracles, are not enough. Remember that Jesus explicitly defines what the will of the Father was:

"Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Doing miracles and charitably casting out demons for people, is not enough. We must do the will of the Father. James seems to disagree with Paul in Roman 9, where the election to sonship is prior to the works of the individual. Works are a posteriori to salvation -- they are not the cause of it:

That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as [g]descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would [h]stand, not [i]because of works but [j]because of Him who calls,
..
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Verses 4-8 ask whatmakes someone a child of God. The answer is that it is not because one is naturally an Israelite, or that one works, but it all depends on God's choice according to election. This is consonant with what Jesus explicitly defined as the Father's will:

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

It seems that James agrees, that everyone who believes in Jesus, is saved. The argument then is what does 'believe' mean?

Remember that Paul continued to sin after he became a christian., yet he believed that he would go to heaven. Paul addresses this issue when he rhetorically asks, if we may sin so that grace may abound. The answer was a clear no. It is true that we are saved irrespective of our works, and this is why Paul rhetorically asks this question:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?

If Paul believed that we are saved by works, he would not have asked this question. Paul teaches us that because we have been saved irrespective of our works, rather, inspite of what we do, we ought to do works of righteousness.

This is the same soteriology as that of Hebrews, in that because we have been made holy in the sight of God, we ought to do good works. But the good works we do in the christian life are not the cause of us already being holy:

Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

That is, us, who commit sin, are holy. If we are holy due not to our good works, then what is it that makes us holy? It is through the sacrifice of Christ.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

And most explicitly:
Hebrews 10:14
because by one sacrifice he has m
   ade perfect forever
those who are being made holy.


In one sense, we are already perfect, and in another sense we are still being made holy. It is because we are already perfect through Christ's sacrifice, that our consciences are free. It is because of this, ie., the sacrifice of Jesus, that Paul a continuing sinner could say:
7 21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death.

What does believing in Jesus mean? According to christian orthodoxy, and the Jewish understanding of 'pistis', to believe in someone is to trust them. We believe in Jesus when we trust what He has done for us, and who He is. Our faith is imperfect, but we do not have faith in faith itself. If our faith was in faith itself, we would not be trusting in Jesus alone. What is more, faith excludes works:

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

As Paul says, we ought to do works as a result of our being saved through Jesus sacrifice, but it is not our works which make us saved through Jesus sacrifice.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We are saved by faith not works, but we are created in Christ to do good works. The fact that we are God's handiwork created to do good works, means that God will lead us into a life of doing good works. These good works are evidences that we have been created in Jesus Christ, and hence evidence that we have been saved:
James 2:
18 But someone [q]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

Our works show others the faith that we have.
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [n]that faith save him?

James makes a distinction between a faith which is not evidenced by works, and faith which is evidenced by works. The question, 'can that faith save him?', seems to indicate that one of these 2 types of faiths, can not save a man. The type of faith which does not save, is the one which is not evidenced by works.

This is what we would expect if God creates us in Christ for good works, when He saves us (Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.)

It is through this work-causing faith, that we are saved. As it says in Hebrews, because we have been made perfect in Christ, we are being made holy. The perfection we receive as a result of Christ's sacrifice is what saves us, when we trust in Him, and this trusting in the work of Christ unites us to Him in a way in which God renews our hearts and minds, causing us to do good works.


kind regards
“Knowledge of the sciences is so much smoke apart from the heavenly science of Christ” -- John Calvin.
“I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels” -- John Calvin

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maranatha33

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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2012, 04:08:27 am »
Great post!  Thank you...

in His Name,

M33

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JamesRedford

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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2012, 12:33:08 am »
maranatha33 wrote:
My statement was about "Human" logic. Too many times do I see that someone's idea of logic supersedes truth, simply because they think it to be true.  God is perfect.  His logic is, as well.  We can identify His Work by His characteristics, but not by a man made presumption of logic.
Dr. Craig consistantly differentiates his scientific knowledge from personal spiritual beliefs.  His arguments are that science supports theism.  His Christianity may argue for the logic of the empty tomb, but they do not reach the Spiritual side, since that can not be defined by any type of logic.
How can logic verify personal testimony of a believer?  If I tell you I believe because my heart has been changed by Jesus, where does your logic validate this witness?


But that is not what my article "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything" is about. What you are talking about in the above is subjective experience or knowledge. What my article is about is objective truth. What my article concerns is that which can be demonstrated to be true. This is also Prof. William Lane Craig's life's work, otherwise there would be no point in him using reason and logic to demonstrate that the historicity of Jesus Christ is factual. He would instead simply appeal to people's "inner witness" (i.e., personal feelings) in order to make his case.


I think we agree on God being beyond creation, yet acting within a natural world.
The verse in Hosea says what is done in opposition to God's Will, not in accordance.


The Bible makes clear that all governments are in opposition to God's will (see 1 Corinthians 2:6-8; 15:23,24; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4; Ephesians 6:12; Luke 4:5-8; Matthew 4:8-10; John 12:31; 14:30; 16:8-11; Revelation 13:2;; 19:19-21).

But even leaving aside that for the moment, your statement here grants that not all government leaders are appointed by God. So you agree with me that it is falsehood to say that government leaders in general are appointed by God (e.g., I assume you would include such figures as Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse-tung, and Pol Pot as being among government leaders who were not appointed by God).


Mark 10:42-45.  This is in reference to James and John's request to sit at the right and left of Jesus in Heaven.  This is what they thought greatness would be.  Jesus does not deny the position of the rulers and "great ones", He is differentiating between heaven and earth.  Heavenly greatness is the opposite of earthly greatness.  We are instructed to be subserviant to the earthly leaders, and commanded to serve them as He serves us with His life for our salvation.  The only exception is if a directive is in complete opposition to God's Will, then we must serve God, first.


When Jesus said that "You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them", Jesus was in fact rebuking the supposed "authority" of the mortal, Earthly rulers. According to Jesus, they are "considered" to be rulers by fallen men, but that doesn't make them so according to God.

And you agree with me on this, per your previous statement above. In other words, you agree with me that the only genuine rulers appointed by God are those who abide by His will.

In this we are in total agreement.

However, your statement of "We are instructed to be subserviant to the earthly leaders, and commanded to serve them as He serves us with His life for our salvation" is a completely Satanic doctrine which is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

So according to this statement by you, we are to sacrifice ourselves for governments in immitation of the sacrifice that Jesus made for mankind.

That is so completely Satanic that I am almost at a loss for words.

To begin with in rebutting this demonic doctrine of yours, Jesus Christ's sacrifice was complete and total. No more sacrifices are necessary. So the idea that anyone would ever have to sacrifice themselves for a government cause is a complete rejection and negation of the Christian faith.

Yet in conformance to Christ's sacrifice, Christians will also have to sacrifice themselves. Not for the sake of any mortal, Earthy government, but rather for the sake of Christ. Christ's sacrifice was total and complete, but in order to make oneself in conformance to Christ may require one to lay down one's life.

That is to say, the example Christ set was complete, but in order to live up to that example will require many of us to give up our lives. (As Paul wrote, "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ" [1 Corinthians 11:1], and Paul also layed down his life in opposition to government.)


I would contend that Faith in Jesus Christ is what saves.  But I do not feel able to differentiate between Belief and Faith adequately.
The only way to worship Jesus is to be born again, receive the Holy Spirit, and be guided into all truth by the counsellor.  At that point, we are to choose actions that are in accordance to Will of God, with the help of the Holy Spirit.  Our salvation is not determined by works.  Rather, works show if we belong to God.
Agree on Jesus being truth, as well as the way to salvtion and the life in eternity, starting on earth.
Here is where we start our differences.  In John 1, Jesus is the Logos, which means "Word".  Truth is a part of it, since God's Will and His word are always true.  But the ultimate will of God is to "believe in the One He has sent."  When you say that the only way one comes to the Father is Truth, that means through Jesus, not by always making "true" statements.  You are now on the works = salvation track.  And that is not Truth.  Truth is of God, and lies are of satan, we agree... but this is not what our salvation is based upon.  A true believer (with the Holy Spirit) will still sin at times, I can attest to that.  But once we have been saved, our works can not save or condemn us.  The only unpardonable sin is to reject the Holy Spirit.  We, and our sin nature, were "bought with a price" the Blood of Jesus.  Our new life makes us want to be obedient to the Lord, but it does not stop our failures.  We confess and repent, and try to do better.  But these are still works, and that is the opposite of what saves, that is His Work... our propitiation.
I can sum up the rest of my reply easily.  Isa 64:6  "our works are like filthy rags before Him."  Following Jesus' command for salvation is ONLY based in being born again.  Believing that our efforts save ourselves cheapens the price that Jesus paid for us.  Eternity is based on only one question... Who is Jesus?  If He is truly one's sole path to salvation, God sees us as perfect through Jesus' blood and we spend eternity with Him.  If Jesus is anything but the complete method and Person of salvation, then one has elevated one's self above Christ, and has no acceptable method for forgiveness...and is condemned.  Good works are a result of salvation, NOT a path to it...  Thanks for your time and responses.  God Bless.


Are you thus without understanding also?

Jesus Christ already told you that there are no words that you can utter, either to others or to yourself, which can save you. No cries to the Lord can save you (see Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).

The only thing that can save you is to actually believe in Jesus Christ. But if one actually believes in Jesus Christ, then one will do what He commanded.

There is no dichotomy here. They are one and the same.

If one does not do what Jesus Christ commanded, then one does not actually believe in Jesus Christ. Instead, one believes in a lie. And it is necessarily a Satanic lie, as Christ's Commandment of the Golden Rule is a binary option: to not follow it is to do the opposite of it.

If one does not worship Jesus Christ in actual fact, then one worships Satan in actual fact.   >
Author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), revised ed., Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2001) http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761 , http://theophysics.host56.com/anarchist-jesus.pdf
Theophysics: God Is the Ultimate Physicist (a website with information on Prof. Frank

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maranatha33

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« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2012, 01:21:07 am »
James,

I need to ask you 2 questions before any response.  2Tim3:16 says "All Scripture is God breathed..."
1.  Do you believe this to be true?
2.  Doesn't this make the case for the infallibility of Scripture?

Thanks...
M33

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JamesRedford

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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2012, 05:37:53 pm »
maranatha33 wrote: James,

I need to ask you 2 questions before any response.  2Tim3:16 says "All Scripture is God breathed..."
1.  Do you believe this to be true?
2.  Doesn't this make the case for the infallibility of Scripture?

Thanks...


All Scripture is God-breathed. That is what I am telling you here.

I am telling you and everyone to believe what Jesus said. Jesus already told you and everyone that the only way you can believe in Him is to actually follow what He told you to follow (see Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).

It's no use to say that you believe, even if you say this to yourself and you convince yourself that you believe it. Jesus told you that the only way you can believe in Him is to follow what He said
(again, see Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).

One believes in Jesus by following what He said. If one does not follow what He Commanded, then one does not believe in Jesus, but instead one believes in a lie.

I am telling you to not believe in any such soul-destroying lies, but instead to believe in Jesus. Believe in Him totally. Let Christ fill you up, such that there is no room for anything else.

Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Only through Christ can one obtain immortality in Heaven.

But in order to do that, one must actually abide by what Christ Commanded us
(again, see Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).

------

Regarding all Scripture being God-breathed, that is true. But a theopneusty involves an interplay between God and man. And man is fallible.

A number of years ago a person by the name of Chris asked me a similar question. Below is my answer to him.

But before I get to that, as I show in the below, the Bible (specifically the Old Testament) contradicts itself in many places. Even if one wants to believe all of it, that is not logically possible. If one says that they believe that the Bible is the uncorrupted word of God and that it is infallible, then they are either speaking out of ignorance or they are being dishonest, because the Old Testament unambiguously contradicts itself in many places.

As I show in the below, this isn't a question of any interpretation of the various passages cited, but rather the Old Testament itself flat-out contradicts itself in many instances.

And so it is not logically possible to believe that the Old Testament is all true, since it itself says that other parts of it are untrue.

One of the fears that some people have is in thinking that if one part of the Bible is untrue then all parts of it must be untrue. But that is the logical fallacy of non sequitur. It doesn't logically follow that because some parts of it (principally within the Old Testament) are untrue that all of the Bible is untrue.

The surest way we can know that Jesus Christ is true is because His message requires a superintelligence, i.e., an intelligence far beyond what any mere mortal was capable of in that time, and indeed, even in our time (i.e., without enlightenment by Jesus Christ, as far as morality concerns [and even then, the best of humans struggle without quite reaching the goal]--as concerns prophecy, then no man can approach this). That is to say, Jesus Christ stands up to the light of reason. And He does so in a way that is so spectacularly brilliant as to make clear His departure from any human who has ever existed before or since.

In short, no Christian need fear that Jesus Christ is not God. He is. Jesus is God in a way that few Christians can even begin to fathom. For many Christians doubt God in thinking that His reality is somehow tied to what some humans wrote in a book. That book is true, but it is true in ways they have not even began to fathom. And that book is false in ways which don't impinge upon the truth of Jesus Christ in the slightest.

That all is to say, many who call themselves Christians don't actually believe in Jesus Christ. Rather, they want desperately to believe in their upbringing, which only concerns Jesus Christ incidently. And so they fear that the truth will show them that Jesus Christ is a sham. And hence they fight against a rational understanding of the Old Testament, as they fear that showing one part of it to be in contradiction to another means that the whole of the Christian faith is a fallacy.

But the only reason they fear this is because they never knew Jesus Christ to begin with. Had they known Him, then they would have had no fear and neither any doubt. As Christ is Truth itself. Wherever one finds truth, there also one finds Jesus.

But, people may ask: what about the holocausts, genocides, and wars, etc., that have continuously plagued mankind--that's truth, i.e., they really happen, they exist, and they're real; is Jesus these things? And I would answer that those things certainly exist and that we need to come to terms with them if we are to ever overcome them--but: what is it that allowed these grim truths to be brought into existence in the first place? In short: lies, deceit, fraud, and willful ignorance--and all on a massive scale. It was only people's lack of belief in Jesus (Truth) in the first place which would inevitably lead to the foregoing--without this departure from the truth happening first, the others could not have happened.

So with that prefatory remark, below is my answer to Chris's question which I mentioned above.

####################

Chris:

""
Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?
""

Much of it, Yes. Some of it, No. Chris, this is a complex issue which will require me to elaborate at length to do the subject justice, but bear with me as I think you might find the answer fascinating.

First of all, I consider that some parts of the Old Testament have been corrupted by governmental agents here on Earth--and the New Testament says that Satan controls all the kingdoms of this Earth. Specifically the first five books of the Bible in particular--known as the Law of Moses, or the Pentateuch, or also the Torah. I base this on what the Bible itself has to say.

For one thing, I do not actually believe for one moment that God changes His mind as to what's right and wrong. I consider all the Old Testament laws on animal sacrifices, the Kosher laws, etc., to be later inserts by governmental minions in order to distance people from true knowledge of God--as well as to cause strife among people by getting them to worry about things which don't matter and causing them to be busybodies in other people's business. Jesus Himself absolutely railed against the Old Testament "Law"--at least as it had been passed down. Thus, consider this:

Matthew 5:17-18: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Matthew 7:12: [...] "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." (See also Luke 6:31.)

When Jesus refers to the "Law" above He's referring to the Law of Moses--at least as it had come to be passed down. Yet by saying this Jesus was actually rebuking the Law of Moses!-- again, at least as it had come to be passed down--as any cursory reading of the Levitical, etc., laws on animal sacrifice and the Kosher laws, etc., etc., will show that they don't have the slightest thing to do with the Golden Rule--and most of them are totally antithetical to it.

And consider the following teaching by Jesus:

"There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!" When
    He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man." (See also Matt. 15:11, 17-20.)

Thus it is clear that Jesus considered most of the Laws of Moses to be complete and utter nonsense! (At least as they have come to be passed down.) But in actuality, we have no actual knowledge of the original Law of Moses! (Which is why I kept saying "as they have come to be passed down.") The Bible itself teaches this! What we now know as the Torah, or the first five books of the Bible, i.e., the Law of Moses, was completely and utterly lost to the ancient Israelites--as well as any memory of what it might have once contained--and was only later "found" by employees of King Josiah.

Now as libertarians, given what we know about the operations of government, it seems more than a bit naive to think that they wouldn't take this golden opportunity to rewrite these five books to suite themselves. As well, the New Testament teaches that it is Satan which has power over all the governments of the world (see Matt. 4:1-11; Mark 1:12,13; Luke 4:1-13; John 12:31; 14:30; 2 Cor. 4:3,4; Eph. 6:11,12). Thus, Satan's minions on Earth had all the opportunity in the world to corrupt the Law of Moses.

For Biblical proof that the Law of Moses was completely and utterly lost to the ancient Israelites--as well as any memory of what it might have once contained (including the ritual of Passover!--see below)--and was only later "found" by employees of King Josiah, consider the following Bible passages:

*******

Hilkiah Finds the Book of the Law:

2 Kings

2 Kings 22:3-20: Now it came to pass, in the eighteenth year of King Josiah, that the king sent Shaphan the scribe, the son of Azaliah, the son of Meshullam, to the house of the LORD, saying: "Go up to Hilkiah the high priest, that he may count the money which has been brought into the house of the LORD, which the doorkeepers have gathered from the people. And let them deliver it into the hand of those doing the work, who are the overseers in the house of the LORD; let them give it to those who are in the house of the LORD doing the work, to repair the damages of the house--to carpenters and builders and masons--and to buy timber and hewn stone to repair the house. However there need be no accounting made with them of the money delivered into their hand, because they deal faithfully."

Then Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the scribe, "I have found the Book of the Law in the house of the LORD." And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it. So Shaphan the scribe went to the king, bringing the king word, saying, "Your servants have gathered the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of those who do the work, who oversee the house of the LORD." Then Shaphan the scribe showed the king, saying, "Hilkiah the priest has given me a book." And Shaphan read it before the king.

Now it happened, when the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, that he tore his clothes. Then the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam the son of Shaphan, Achbor the son of Michaiah, Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah a servant of the king, saying, "Go, inquire of the LORD for me, for the people and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that has been found; for great is the wrath of the LORD that is aroused against us, because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us."

So Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Achbor, Shaphan, and Asaiah went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe. (She dwelt in Jerusalem in the Second Quarter.) And they spoke with her. Then she said to them, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel, "Tell the man who sent you to Me, "Thus says the LORD: "Behold, I will bring calamity on this place and on its inhabitants--all the words of the book which the king of Judah has read--because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. Therefore My wrath shall be aroused against this place and shall not be quenched."" But as for the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the LORD, in this manner you shall speak to him, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel: "Concerning the words which you have heard--because your heart was tender, and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I spoke against this place and against its inhabitants, that they would become a desolation and a curse, and you tore your clothes and wept before Me, I also have heard you," says the LORD. Surely, therefore, I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace; and your eyes shall not see all the calamity which I will bring on this place.""' So they brought back word to the king.

2 Kings 23:1-3: Now the king sent them to gather all the elders of Judah and Jerusalem to him. The king went up to the house of the LORD with all the men of Judah, and with him all the inhabitants of Jerusalem--the priests and the prophets and all the people, both small and great. And he read in their hearing all the words of the Book of the Covenant which had been found in the house of the LORD.

Then the king stood by a pillar and made a covenant before the LORD, to follow the LORD and to keep His commandments and His testimonies and His statutes, with all his heart and all his soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people took a stand for the covenant.

2 Kings 23:21-23:Then the king commanded all the people, saying, "Keep the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in this Book of the Covenant." Such a Passover surely had never been held since the days of the judges who judged Israel, nor in all the days of the kings of Israel and the kings of Judah. But in the eighteenth year of King Josiah this Passover was held before the LORD in Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles

2 Chronicles 34:14-30: Now when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of the LORD, Hilkiah the priest found the Book of the Law of the LORD given by Moses. Then Hilkiah answered and said to Shaphan the scribe, "I have found the Book of the Law in the house of the LORD." And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan.

2 Chronicles 34:30: The king went up to the house of the LORD, with all the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem--the priests and the Levites, and all the people, great and small. And he read in their hearing all the words of the Book of the Covenant which had been found in the house of the LORD.

2 Chronicles 35:18: There had been no Passover kept in Israel like that since the days of Samuel the prophet; and none of the kings of Israel had kept such a Passover as Josiah kept, with the priests and the Levites, all Judah and Israel who were present, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

*******

Thus, I certainly cannot consider the whole Law of Moses to be trustworthy--especially in light of Jesus's own teachings on this matter! Although I do think that parts of the Torah were inspired by God, it's just that a lot of it appears to contain nonsense tacked-on to it by governmental minions. Specifically, I think the law of *lex talionis* and proportional punishment (Exo. 21:22-25; Lev. 24:17-22) and repaying double-restitution (Exo. 22:2-4,7,9) in the Books of Moses were divinely inspired, as they look as if Rothbard himself could have written them (and no,
    I'm not saying that Rothbard is the Godhead, I'm simply saying that God's true laws are discoverable by reason).

Also, it seems clear that the animal sacrifices in the "Law of Moses" are just derived from earlier pagan human and animal sacrifice rituals, specifically sacrificing the firstborn of everything for fertility rites. Indeed, in some parts of the "Law of Moses" it even condones human sacrifice! Thus, consider the following:

Exodus 13:1,2: Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Consecrate to Me all the firstborn, whatever opens the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and beast; it is Mine."

Exodus: 13:11-16: "And it shall be, when the LORD brings you into the land of the Canaanites, as He swore to you and your fathers, and gives it to you, that you shall set apart to the LORD all that open the womb, that is, every firstborn that comes from an animal which you have; the males shall be the LORD's. But every firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb; and if you will not redeem it, then you shall break its neck. And all the firstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem. So it shall be, when your son asks you in time to come, saying, "What is this?' that you shall say to him, "By strength of hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. And it came to pass, when Pharaoh was stubborn about letting us go, that the LORD killed all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man and the firstborn of beast. Therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all males that open the womb, but all the firstborn of my sons I redeem.' It shall be as a sign on your hand and as frontlets between your eyes, for by strength of hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt."

*******

Now in the above it talks about "redeeming" the firstborn of the human males by sacrificing animals in their place, but in the below passage it doesn't mention anything about "redeeming" the firstborn sons with animals!:

Exodus 22:29,30: "You shall not delay to offer the first of your ripe produce and your juices. The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me. Likewise you shall do with your oxen and your sheep. It shall be with its mother seven days; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.

*******

And it's clear that humans were at times sacrificed according to the "Law of Moses," as consider the following passage:

Leviticus 27:28,29: "But nothing that a man owns and devotes to the LORD--whether man or animal or family land--may be sold or redeemed; everything so devoted is most holy to the LORD. No person devoted to destruction may be ransomed; he must be put to death." (NIV.)

*******

It cannot be claimed that the above passage is talking about the death penalty for criminals, as it already stated that "everything so devoted is most holy to the LORD." Thus it is clear that it is talking about sacrifice offerings to please "God" (although I would say that that god is probably Satan).

But moreover, consider the following Bible story of Jephthah's Daughter which demonstrate unmistakably that human sacrifice was a custom of the early Israelites!:

Judges 11:29-40: Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed through Gilead and Manasseh, and passed through Mizpah of Gilead; and from Mizpah of Gilead he advanced toward the people of Ammon. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD, and said, "If You will indeed deliver the people of Ammon into my hands, then it will be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering." So Jephthah advanced toward the people of Ammon to fight against them, and the LORD delivered them into his hands. And he defeated them from Aroer as far as Minnith--twenty cities--and to Abel Keramim, with a very great slaughter. Thus the people of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

When Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah, there was his daughter, coming out to meet him with timbrels and dancing; and she was his only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter. And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he tore his clothes, and said, "Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low! You are among those who trouble me! For I have given my word to the LORD, and I cannot go back on it." So she said to him, "My father, if you have given your word to the LORD, do to me according to what has gone out of your mouth, because the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the people of Ammon." Then she said to her father, "Let this thing be done for me: let me alone for two months, that I may go and wander on the mountains and bewail my virginity, my friends and I." So he said, "Go." And he sent her away for two months; and she went with her friends, and bewailed her virginity on the mountains. And it was so at the end of two months that she returned to her father, and he carried out his vow with her which he had vowed. She knew no man. And it became a custom in Israel that the daughters of Israel went four days each year to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.

*******

As well, the Bible itself teaches that parts of it were corrupted! Thus, consider the following Bible passages:

Psalm 40:6-8:
Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
Then I said, "Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart."

Lamentations 4:13:
Because of the sins of her [Israel's] prophets
And the iniquities of her priests,
Who shed in her midst
The blood of the just.

Jeremiah 8:8 [quoting God]: "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood."

Hosea 6:6 [quoting God]: "For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

Colossians 2:14-23: [Christ] having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations--"Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Hebrews 10:4-8: For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
Then I said, "Behold, I have come--
In the volume of the book it is written of Me--
To do Your will, O God."'[1]

Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law),

NKJV Note 1: 10:7 Psalm 40:6-8

*******

And consider the following contradictions found within the Old Testament:

******
   *

God's/Satan's Census: Which One?:

2 Samuel 24:1-4: Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah." So the king said to Joab the commander of the army who was with him, "Now go throughout all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and count the people, that I may know the number of the people." And Joab said to the king, "Now may the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times more than there are, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king desire this thing?" Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab and against the captains of the army. Therefore Joab and the captains of the army went out from the presence of the king to count the people of Israel.

1 Chronicles 21:1-4: Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. So David said to Joab and to the leaders of the people, "Go, number Israel from Beersheba to Dan, and bring the number of them to me that I may know it." And Joab answered, "May the LORD make His people a hundred times more than they are. But, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? Why then does my lord require this thing? Why should he be a cause of guilt in Israel?" Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Therefore Joab departed and went throughout all Israel and came to Jerusalem.

*******

Did King Saul Know David Before or After David Killed Goliath?:

--King Saul Sends for David's Father Jesse and David Plays the Harp for King Saul:

1 Samuel 16:14-23: But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said to him, "Surely, a distressing spirit from God is troubling you. Let our master now command your servants, who are before you, to seek out a man who is a skillful player on the harp. And it shall be that he will play it with his hand when the distressing spirit from God is upon you, and you shall be well." So Saul said to his servants, "Provide me now a man who can play well, and bring him to me." Then one of the servants answered and said, "Look, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skillful in playing, a mighty man of valor, a man of war, prudent in speech, and a handsome person; and the LORD is with him."

Therefore Saul sent messengers to Jesse, and said, "Send me your son David, who is with the sheep." And Jesse took a donkey loaded with bread, a skin of wine, and a young goat, and sent them by his son David to Saul. So David came to Saul and stood before him. And he loved him greatly, and he became his armorbearer. Then Saul sent to Jesse, saying, "Please let David stand before me, for he has found favor in my sight." And so it was, whenever the spirit from God was upon Saul, that David would take a harp and play it with his hand. Then Saul would become refreshed and well, and the distressing spirit would depart from him.

--King Saul and David Discuss Going up Against Goliath the Philistine:

1 Samuel 17:31-37: Now when the words which David spoke were heard, they reported them to Saul; and he sent for him. Then David said to Saul, "Let no man's heart fail because of him; your servant will go and fight with this Philistine." And Saul said to David, "You are not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him; for you are a youth, and he a man of war from his youth." But David said to Saul, "Your servant used to keep his father's sheep, and when a lion or a bear came and took a lamb out of the flock, I went out after it and struck it, and delivered the lamb from its mouth; and when it arose against me, I caught it by its beard, and struck and killed it. Your servant has killed both lion and bear; and this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, seeing he has defied the armies of the living God." Moreover David said, "The LORD, who delivered me from the paw of the lion and from the paw of the bear, He will deliver me from the hand of this Philistine." And Saul said to David, "Go, and the LORD be with you!"

--King Saul Inquires of his Servant who the Young Slayer of Goliath is:

1 Samuel 17:55-58: When Saul saw David going out against the Philistine, he said to Abner, the commander of the army, "Abner, whose son is this youth?" And Abner said, "As your soul lives, O king, I do not know." So the king said, "Inquire whose son this young man is." Then, as David returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, Abner took him and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand. And Saul said to him, "Whose son are you, young man?" So David answered, "I am the son of your servant Jesse the Bethlehemite."

*******

Was God's Name--i.e., YHWH--Known Before God Gave it to Moses?:

Consider closely the following Bible passage:

Exodus 3:13-15: Then Moses said to God, "Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, "The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, "What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."' Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: "The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.'

Exodus 6:2,3: And God spoke to Moses and said to him: "I am the LORD. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD[1] I was not known to them.

NKJV Note 1: 6:3 Hebrew YHWH, traditionally Jehovah

*******

Whenever you see LORD or GOD in the Bible with all capital letters it stands for what's called the "Tetragrammaton," i.e., the four Hebrew consonants Yod-He-Vav-He, or YHWH, sometimes transliterated as "Yahweh." So in Exodus 6:2,3 God is here telling Moses that He was never known to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as Yahweh, but merely as God Almighty. But this contradicts what Genesis has to say about this matter!

Thus, consider the following passages in Genesis:

Genesis 4:26: And as for Seth, to him also a son was born; and he named him Enosh. Then men began to call on the name of the LORD.

*******

So in the above we learn that men began to call on the name of Yahweh after Enosh was born!

But Exodus 6:3 specifically says of God "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name Yahweh I was not known to them." So lets see what the Bible has to say about this specific matter:

Genesis 13:4: [...] to the place of the altar which he had made there at first. And there Abram called on the name of the LORD.

Genesis 21:33: Then Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there called on the name of the LORD, the Everlasting God.

Genesis 22:14: And Abraham called the name of the place, The-LORD-Will-Provide;[1] as it is said to this day, "In the Mount of the LORD it shall be provided."

NKJV Note 1: 22:14 Hebrew *YHWH Yireh*

*******

Remember that Abram was Abraham's earlier name. But here Genesis contradicts what Exodus 6:3 says, as it's quite clear from the accounts in Genesis that Abraham did indeed know God by the name of Yahweh! Abraham even named a place using Yahweh's name!

Thus, I consider parts of the earlier books in the Old Testament suspect. Although I consider the books of the Prophets in the latter part of the Old Testament to be for the most part trustworthy-- many being exceedingly trustworthy: Daniel in his 70 Weeks prophecy accurately predicted the Triumphal Entry of Jesus to the very day! And Ezekiel accurately prophesied the 1967 recapture of Jerusalem to the very day!

To learn more on that, see:

"The Unexpected King (A Precise Mathematical Prediction)":
http://web.archive.org/web/20021217052525/http://www.yfiles.com/king.html

"Ezekiel Prophesied the 1967 Recapture of Jerusalem":
http://www.dir
   ect.ca/trinity/jerusalem.html

See also:

http://web.archive.org/web/20021217201829/http://www.yfiles.com/y3nf.html

I also consider the New Testament to be for the most part exceedingly trustworthy, as the only "contradictions" found in it are precisely the kind one would expect to find in different eyewitness accounts, i.e., such as the difference between Peter denying Jesus three times before the cock crowed either once or twice, etc. And I also consider it trustworthy because Jesus's commands are completely logical and rational--like the Golden Rule which He gave as the *ultimate* social ethic--unlike the apparent nonsense which is often found in the "Law of Moses."

Indeed, this is what Jesus had to say about the teachers and practitioners of the "Law of Moses":

Matthew 23:13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to." (NIV)

Luke 11:46,52: And He said, "Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. [...] [verse 52:] "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."

*******

When Jesus says "lawyers" in the above he's principally speaking about those who teach and enforce the "Law of Moses." Although this happened to be the actual literal positive law for the Jews at the time (in addition to the Roman law), as it was enforced with actual use of force.

*******

I hope this answers your question, Chris, as to whether I consider the Bible to be the word of God. It's probably a much more complex answer than you were expecting, but it had to be this long in order for me to honestly answer it.
Author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), revised ed., Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2001) http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761 , http://theophysics.host56.com/anarchist-jesus.pdf
Theophysics: God Is the Ultimate Physicist (a website with information on Prof. Frank

11

maranatha33

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The Aseity of God
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2012, 06:18:25 pm »


All Scripture is God-breathed. That is what I am telling you here.

The operative word here is "All".  You seem to think your interpretation can ignore this concept, to validate your theory.  Since "God Breathed" is by definition, perfect, Scripture can not contradict itself.  If your understanding has Scripture contradicting itself, you understanding is in error.

I am telling you and everyone to believe what Jesus said. Jesus already told you and everyone that the only way you can believe in Him is to actually follow what He told you to follow (see Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).

There is a complete opposite position to your understanding in the Scripture.  First:  
Eph 2:8,9  8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.  
This is not ambiguous.  Salvation is a gift of God by faith.  And this faith is from God.  Not by works!  If your understanding of Matt. and Luke's verses were correct, you would be promoting a works based salvation, in opposition to the Word of God.  However, if you realize that these verses are a RESULT of salvation, there is no contradiction.

It's no use to say that you believe, even if you say this to yourself and you convince yourself that you believe it. Jesus told you that the only way you can believe in Him is to follow what He said (again, see Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).

This interpretation is not Scriptural.  The way to believe in Him is accepting the Holy Spirit when one is born again.  Blaspheming the Holy Spirit (not accepting Him) is the only unpardonable sin.  

John 3 is the Lord's command for salvation.  
John 3:3-8   3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Being "born again" is simply dying to self and being made alive through Christ.  In Baptism, one is immersed in water as in dying to self, and raised again as in being made alive by Christ.  The Holy Spirit then takes residence in the Believer and their eternal life has begun, one which is required to enter heaven.

One believes in Jesus by following what He said. If one does not follow what He Commanded, then one does not believe in Jesus, but instead one believes in a lie.

One believes in Jesus by FAITH.  As Eph 2:8,9 among others, clearly state.  The only true commandment for salvation is the word "must" found in "You must be born again.

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Believing is a manifestation of faith, as Eph. 2 shows.  Faith is defined in Hebrews 11.
Heb. 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

Works can be seen.  Faith, through belief, cannot.

Heb. 11:6  And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

What is God's work for us?

John 6:29  Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


I am telling you to not believe in any such soul-destroying lies, but instead to believe in Jesus. Believe in Him totally. Let Christ fill you up, such that there is no room for anything else.
Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Only through Christ can one obtain immortality in Heaven.

True, though I would say "be filled with the Holy Spirit" but since they are one in the Trinity, I will not disagree.

But in order to do that, one must actually abide by what Christ Commanded us (again, see Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).

Wrong.  He gave us fruit to see as a result of salvation which result in your quoted Scripture.  But you have ignored all the Scripture I have shown, and much more, to promote a works based faith, that will not save.

Matt  18:2-4 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:15 and Luke 18:17 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

Gal.  3:26  So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

There are only 2 possible paths to heaven.  One says that a man will be judged solely on what they have done (works) and the other teaches that a man can not do the works required, as Jesus did, thus is saved by faith alone.  Sola Fida.  Only the latter option is Biblical...


Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?

Much of it, Yes. Some of it, No. Chris, this is a complex issue which will require me to elaborate at length to do the subject justice, but bear with me as I think you might find the answer fascinating.

Now I will end just as I started:

You said:  
All Scripture is God-breathed. That is what I am telling you here.
 

I responded:   The operative word here is "All".  You seem to think your interpretation can ignore this concept, to validate your theory.  Since "God Breathed" is by definition, perfect, Scripture can not contradict itself.  If your understanding has Scripture contradicting itself, you understanding is in error.  


M33

12

troyjs

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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2012, 09:47:09 pm »
It is interesting that  the verse which identifies 'All Scripture" as being God-breathed, was in regards to All Scripture, and that afew verses earlier, part of this Scripture is what was already available to Timothy since His youth, ie., the Old Testament:

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

If one believes the New Testament, then one must also believe the Old Testament.

In fact, verse 15 is often used by some people to restrict the scope of verse 16 to the Old Testament alone. This is unfounded as well, as in other places the New Testament epistles, and the writings of Luke, are regarded as Scripture.

To reject the authority of the Old Testament, is to reject the autority of 2 Tim 3: 15 and 16 -- which is to reject the authority of the New Testament. They are intimately connected together.

Maranatha,

It has been my experience, that those who reject Sola Fide, also reject the authority of the whole Bible, or the Bible alone.

Every group which denies Sola Fide, either has another source of truth, ie., tradition, or new prophets or books, or a governing body of the organisation, etc.

There is nothing wrong with tradition, or new teachers or books, or a governing body, but those things are always to be under the authority of the Bible.

As you have pointed out, the Bible differentiates between faith, and works produced by that faith.


kind regards
“Knowledge of the sciences is so much smoke apart from the heavenly science of Christ” -- John Calvin.
“I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels” -- John Calvin

13

troyjs

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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2012, 09:47:52 pm »
It is interesting that  the verse which identifies 'All Scripture" as being God-breathed, was in regards to All Scripture, and that afew verses earlier, part of this Scripture is what was already available to Timothy since His youth, ie., the Old Testament:

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

If one believes the New Testament, then one must also believe the Old Testament.

In fact, verse 15 is often used by some people to restrict the scope of verse 16 to the Old Testament alone. This is unfounded as well, as in other places the New Testament epistles, and the writings of Luke, are regarded as Scripture.

To reject the authority of the Old Testament, is to reject the autority of 2 Tim 3: 15 and 16 -- which is to reject the authority of the New Testament. They are intimately connected together.

Maranatha,

It has been my experience, that those who reject Sola Fide, also reject the authority of the whole Bible, or the Bible alone.

Every group which denies Sola Fide, either has another source of truth, ie., tradition, or new prophets or books, or a governing body of the organisation, etc.

There is nothing wrong with tradition, or new teachers or books, or a governing body, but those things are always to be under the authority of the Bible.

As you have pointed out, the Bible differentiates between faith, and works produced by that faith.


kind regards
“Knowledge of the sciences is so much smoke apart from the heavenly science of Christ” -- John Calvin.
“I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels” -- John Calvin

14

maranatha33

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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2012, 11:21:05 pm »
Troyjs,

I have found that there is a common bond on the 2 sides of belief, or lack thereof, of Scripture.  First, it is important to me to let you know that I am not specifically referring to James, or anyone else.  

If you start with the age of the gnostics, there are those who believe that they have a "special knowledge" and those who believe in the literal truth of the Word.  As you know, gnostic is Greek for knowledge.  And this knowledge is so special, that salvation is dependent upon it.  

Next up is the church age that says there is a man made addition that must be added to Scripture, for real understanding and salvation.  The "Magisterium" is the special knowledge of the priesthood in the church, and actually surpasses the authority and truth of the Word.  This is in direct conflict with the Book of Revelation...

Rev 22:18,19 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

This didn't stop the hierarchy of "Universal congregation" from not only withholding the Scriptures from the public, but was cause for burning any individual who possessed the Bible in the English language.  Thus the Reformation age started with, in my opinion, John Wycliffe and was highlighted by Martin Luther, among many. Still the battle was the same... Special knowledge versus the Literal Word.  And this particular battle still goes on today.

In addition, there was also the age of "Enlightenment".  By definition, this means a special knowledge, as compared to the Bible. This era was another name for atheism, nothing more.

In an attempt to reconcile atheism and Christianity, a compromise was proposed in the late 18th/ early 19th centuries, known as the "German Higher criticism."  No need to point out the word "higher" here.  It essentially did the same thing as the previous enemies to the Truth of Scripture, in denying the Deity and salvation of Jesus, for some more of the special knowledge that contradicts the literal meaning of the Bible.  

This attack on the Truth is still the same today.  Though Biblical Christianity has remained the same for almost 2,000 years, and the opposition has changed the attack methodology numerous times, the question is still the same.  Is the Bible the inspired Word of God, or not?  Comparing the perfect knowledge of our Creator to the obvious fallibility of man, the answer should be plain to see...

May God Bless...





























M33