Archived

Aseity

Read 40504 times

JamesRedford

  • **
  • 73 Posts
    • View Profile
The Aseity of God
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2012, 10:44:52 pm »
maranatha33 wrote:
All Scripture is God-breathed. That is what I am telling you here.


The operative word here is "All".  You seem to think your interpretation can ignore this concept, to validate your theory.  Since "God Breathed" is by definition, perfect, Scripture can not contradict itself.  If your understanding has Scripture contradicting itself, you understanding is in error.


All of existence is God-breathed. The issue is to what degree a particular truth-claim comes from the ultimate truth of the Godhead.

Those who claim that the Bible is infallible are making a false claim. The Bible contradicts itself in many places (particularly the Old Testament--the disagreements which occur in the New Testament are precisely those one would expect from different eyewitnesses).

As Prof. Michael R. Licona--who has written the most comprehensive scholarly investigation to date on the historicity of Jesus Christ's resurrection--has said, if Jesus rose from the dead then Christianity is true even if everything else in the Bible is false (although, as I previously indicated, the New Testament is quite reliable).

Those who make the claim of the Bible's inerrancy do so from a lack of belief in Jesus Christ. They fear that Jesus Christ's historicity and Godhead is a fiction, and so wish to nip in the bud any attempt to fully rationally understand the accounts of His Incarnation.

I know probably more so than anyone else alive on this planet that Jesus Christ rose from the dead in order to save us, and that Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity. Moreover, I know what those statements mean in the sense of physical and empirical science.

Hence, I do not have the fears that you have that Jesus Christ's historicity and Godhead is a fiction. Because I do not share your fears that Christ is a fiction, I am free to take the Bible as it is, warts and all, instead of trying to shoehorn it into some false manmade theology founded in fear and disbelief.


Quote
I am telling you and everyone to believe what Jesus said. Jesus already told you and everyone that the only way you can believe in Him is to actually follow what He told you to follow (see Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).


There is a complete opposite position to your understanding in the Scripture.  First:  
Eph 2:8,9  8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.  
This is not ambiguous.  Salvation is a gift of God by faith.  And this faith is from God.  Not by works!  If your understanding of Matt. and Luke's verses were correct, you would be promoting a works based salvation, in opposition to the Word of God.  However, if you realize that these verses are a RESULT of salvation, there is no contradiction.


Yet if one does not follow what Jesus Christ commanded, then one does not actually believe in Jesus Christ. Instead one believes in a lie. And that lie is necessarily a Satanic lie, since Christ's Commandment of the Golden Rule is a binary option: to not follow it is to do the opposite of it.

Jesus Christ is quite clear that the only way one can believe in Him is by following His Commandment (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

""
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
""

And as Jesus said in John 14:15,23,24:

""
"If you love Me, keep My commandments. ...

... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."
""

You are creating a false dichotomy here. There is no discontinuity between belief and action. If one believes in something, then one will act upon it. And actions (in the sense of consciously chosen action) can only be the result of beliefs a person holds. Thus, ultimately belief and action are one and the same.


Quote
It's no use to say that you believe, even if you say this to yourself and you convince yourself that you believe it. Jesus told you that the only way you can believe in Him is to follow what He said (again, see Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).


This interpretation is not Scriptural.  The way to believe in Him is accepting the Holy Spirit when one is born again.  Blaspheming the Holy Spirit (not accepting Him) is the only unpardonable sin.  
John 3 is the Lord's command for salvation.  
John 3:3-8   3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Being "born again" is simply dying to self and being made alive through Christ.  In Baptism, one is immersed in water as in dying to self, and raised again as in being made alive by Christ.  The Holy Spirit then takes residence in the Believer and their eternal life has begun, one which is required to enter heaven.


The doctrine you are presenting here is antiscriptural and Antichrist in nature.

You are creating a false dichotomy here. There is no discontinuity between belief and action. If one believes in something, then one will act upon it. And actions (in the sense of consciously chosen action) can only be the result of beliefs a person holds. Thus, ultimately belief and action are one and the same.

If one does not follow what Jesus Christ commanded, then one does not actually believe in Jesus Christ. Instead one believes in a lie. And that lie is necessarily a Satanic lie, since Christ's Commandment of the Golden Rule is a binary option: to not follow it is to do the opposite of it.

Jesus Christ is quite clear that the only way one can believe in Him is by following His Commandment (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

""
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it
    did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
""

And as Jesus said in John 14:15,23,24:

""
"If you love Me, keep My commandments. ...

... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."
""


Quote
One believes in Jesus by following what He said. If one does not follow what He Commanded, then one does not believe in Jesus, but instead one believes in a lie.


One believes in Jesus by FAITH.  As Eph 2:8,9 among others, clearly state.  The only true commandment for salvation is the word "must" found in "You must be born again.
John 3:16-18  For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Believing is a manifestation of faith, as Eph. 2 shows.  Faith is defined in Hebrews 11.
Heb. 11:1  Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
Works can be seen.  Faith, through belief, cannot.
Heb. 11:6  And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
What is God's work for us?
John 6:29  Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


Yet if one actually has faith in Jesus Christ, then one will do what He commanded. If one does not do what He commanded, then it is clear that one does not believe in Him.

You are creating a false dichotomy here. There is no discontinuity between belief and action. If one believes in something, then one will act upon it. And actions (in the sense of consciously chosen action) can only be the result of beliefs a person holds. Thus, ultimately belief and action are one and the same.

If one does not follow what Jesus Christ commanded, then one does not actually believe in Jesus Christ. Instead one believes in a lie. And that lie is necessarily a Satanic lie, since Christ's Commandment of the Golden Rule is a binary option: to not follow it is to do the opposite of it.

Jesus Christ is quite clear that the only way one can believe in Him is by following His Commandment (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

""
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
""

And as Jesus said in John 14:15,23,24:

""
"If you love Me, keep My commandments. ...

... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."
""


Quote
I am telling you to not believe in any such soul-destroying lies, but instead to believe in Jesus. Believe in Him totally. Let Christ fill you up, such that there is no room for anything else.
Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Only through Christ can one obtain immortality in Heaven.

True, though I would say "be filled with the Holy Spirit" but since they are one in the Trinity, I will not disagree.
But in order to do that, one must actually abide by what Christ Commanded us (again, see Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).

Wrong.  He gave us fruit to see as a result of salvation which result in your quoted Scripture.  But you have ignored all the Scripture I have shown, and much more, to promote a works based faith, that will not save.
Matt  18:2-4  And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:15 and Luke 18:17  Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”
Gal.  3:26  So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,
There are only 2 possible paths to heaven.  One says that a man will be judged solely on what they have done (works) and the other teaches that a man can not do the works required, as Jesus did, thus is saved by faith alone.  Sola Fida.  Only the latter option is Biblical...


The doctrine you are presenting here is antiscriptural and Antichrist in nature.

You are creating a false dichotomy here. There is no discontinuity between belief and action. If one believes in something, then one will act upon it. And actions (in the sense of consciously chosen action) can only be the result of beliefs a person holds. Thus, ultimately belief and action are one and the same.

If one does not follow what Jesus Christ commanded, then one does not actually believe in Jesus Christ. Instead one believes in a lie. And that lie is necessarily a Satanic lie, since Christ's Commandment of the Golden Rule is a binary option: to not follow it is to do the opposite of it.

Jesus Christ is quite clear that the only way one can believe in Him is by following His Commandment (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

""
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
""

And as Jesus said in John 14:15,23,24:

""
"If you love Me, keep My commandments. ...

... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."
""


Quote
Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?

Much of it, Yes. Some of it, No. Chris, this is a complex issue which will require me to elaborate at length to
   do the subject justice, but bear with me as I think you might find the answer fascinating.

Now I will end just as I started:
You said:  
All Scripture is God-breathed. That is what I am telling you here.
 
I responded:   The operative word here is "All".  You seem to think your interpretation can ignore this concept, to validate your theory.  Since "God Breathed" is by definition, perfect, Scripture can not contradict itself.  If your understanding has Scripture contradicting itself, you understanding is in error.  


Again, all of existence is God-breathed. The issue is to what degree a particular truth-claim comes from the ultimate truth of the Godhead.

Those who claim that the Bible is infallible are making a false claim. The Bible contradicts itself in many places (particularly the Old Testament--the disagreements which occur in the New Testament are precisely those one would expect from different eyewitnesses).

As Prof. Michael R. Licona--who has written the most comprehensive scholarly investigation to date on the historicity of Jesus Christ's resurrection--has said, if Jesus rose from the dead then Christianity is true even if everything else in the Bible is false (although, as I previously indicated, the New Testament is quite reliable).

Those who make the claim of the Bible's inerrancy do so from a lack of belief in Jesus Christ. They fear that Jesus Christ's historicity and Godhead is a fiction, and so wish to nip in the bud any attempt to fully rationally understand the accounts of His Incarnation.

I know probably more so than anyone else alive on this planet that Jesus Christ rose from the dead in order to save us, and that Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity. Moreover, I know what those statements mean in the sense of physical and empirical science.

Hence, I do not have the fears that you have that Jesus Christ's historicity and Godhead is a fiction. Because I do not share your fears that Christ is a fiction, I am free to take the Bible as it is, warts and all, instead of trying to shoehorn it into some false manmade theology founded in fear and disbelief.
Author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), revised ed., Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2001) http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761 , http://theophysics.host56.com/anarchist-jesus.pdf
Theophysics: God Is the Ultimate Physicist (a website with information on Prof. Frank

1

maranatha33

  • **
  • 35 Posts
    • View Profile
The Aseity of God
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2012, 09:23:44 pm »
The operative word here is "All".  You seem to think your interpretation can ignore this concept, to validate your theory.  Since "God Breathed" is by definition, perfect, Scripture can not contradict itself.  If your understanding has Scripture contradicting itself, you understanding is in error.

All of existence is God-breathed. The issue is to what degree a particular truth-claim comes from the ultimate truth of the Godhead.

Let's try this again...

2Tim 3:16  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

This is a yes or no statement.  It is a declaration by Scripture that it is ordained from God.  If one believes this to be true, the undeniable result is the understanding of inerrancy.  If one does not believe this to be true, they have declared that the Scriptures contain lies, thus can not be divine.  There are no degrees of truth to the Scriptures.

Those who claim that the Bible is infallible are making a false claim.

Wrong, but those who claim the Bible to be errant, are calling the Scriptures, lies.

The Bible contradicts itself in many places (particularly the Old Testament--the disagreements which occur in the New Testament are precisely those one would expect from different eyewitnesses).


The Bible is inerrant.  God Breathed, means it comes from Him.  However, nowhere does the Bible claim that God's Hand came down from Heaven and penned the words.  He used His prophets and chosen people to write down what the Spirit has led them to proclaim.  This does not mean that trivial matters can't disagree, it means that no Doctrine, teaching, and law will contradict the attributes of God.  If one person sees 4,000 soldiers and another sees 40,000, one wonders if they had the same vantage point, the same eyesight, the same focus of attention.  Humans wrote the Words as directed by God, and obviously He doesn't consider the trivial matters, important.  (What a concept!) You can not name one significant contradiction, only the minutia...  That is Inerrant.


As Prof. Michael R. Licona--who has written the most comprehensive scholarly investigation to date on the historicity of Jesus Christ's resurrection--has said, if Jesus rose from the dead then Christianity is true even if everything else in the Bible is false (although, as I previously indicated, the New Testament is quite reliable).

Mike Licona made this statement as a possible apocryphal view of Matthew 27.  He runs RisenJesus Ministries, and made this idea known in accordance with his declared belief in the inerrancy of Scripture.  

Those who make the claim of the Bible's inerrancy do so from a lack of belief in Jesus Christ.

No, those who hold to the inerrancy of Scripture, like Dr. Licona, hold to a standard higher than themselves.

They fear that Jesus Christ's historicity and Godhead is a fiction, and so wish to nip in the bud any attempt to fully rationally understand the accounts of His Incarnation.

This is absurd.  1. You do not know what billions of Christians for the last 2,000 years believe.  2.  There is NO reference point to this inane assumption.  3.  This is the first I have heard of this fiction, and hopefully the last.

I know probably more so than anyone else alive on this planet that Jesus Christ rose from the dead in order to save us, and that Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity.
 

I will pass on this statement, under the presumption of the Glory of His grace in your life.

Moreover, I know what those statements mean in the sense of physical and empirical science.

If your foundation is the based in the truth of Scripture, so be it.  If it is in conflict with any Biblical doctrine, Old or New Testament, you are wrong.


Hence, I do not have the fears that you have that Jesus Christ's historicity and Godhead is a fiction. Because I do not share your fears that Christ is a fiction, I am free to take the Bible as it is, warts and all, instead of trying to shoehorn it into some false manmade theology founded in fear and disbelief.

This is your idea of substantiating of your Non-Biblical views?  You do NOT know my fears.  You do NOT know of my personal relationship with Jesus, other than what is in the Bible.  It does make one wonder where you get your views.  

I am telling you and everyone to believe what Jesus said. Jesus already told you and everyone that the only way you can believe in Him is to actually follow what He told you to follow (see Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).


There is a complete opposite position to your understanding in the Scripture.  First:  
Eph 2:8,9  8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.  
This is not ambiguous.  Salvation is a gift of God by faith.  And this faith is from God.  Not by works!  If your understanding of Matt. and Luke's verses were correct, you would be promoting a works based salvation, in opposition to the Word of God.  However, if you realize that these verses are a RESULT of salvation, there is no contradiction.

Yet if one does not follow what Jesus Christ commanded, then one does not actually believe in Jesus Christ. Instead one believes in a lie.

You must be sinless.  First command you miss, it's the eternal fire.  Wow, I will take His grace for my sins, and be forever grateful.

And that lie is necessarily a Satanic lie, since Christ's Commandment of the Golden Rule is a binary option: to not follow it is to do the opposite of it.

It is NOT binary.  What do you do with sins of omission?

Jesus Christ is quite clear that the only way one can believe in Him is by following His Commandment (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

How can you understand Scripture if you don't even know if it is true?  There are really only 2 belief systems to get into heaven.  1. Works  2.  Grace, through faith. You have chosen the Non Biblical methodology, and like Isaiah says:

64:6  All of us have become like one who is unclean,
   and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
   and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Jesus gave His Blood as the Perfect Sacrifice.  The propitiation for our sins.  Neither you, I, nor anyone else gets into heaven because of what we do.  Those are called WORKS, and the will NOT save!  We follow His commands because we love Him, not to earn anything...

Until you understand what Jesus did for you then you will never truly appreciate the complete gift of God you received when you asked Jesus to be your Lord and Savior.  He is the Savior, not us...


M33

2

JamesRedford

  • **
  • 73 Posts
    • View Profile
The Aseity of God
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2012, 10:18:30 pm »
maranatha33 wrote: The operative word here is "All".  You seem to think your interpretation can ignore this concept, to validate your theory.  Since "God Breathed" is by definition, perfect, Scripture can not contradict itself.  If your understanding has Scripture contradicting itself, you understanding is in error.

You reject the most important of Scripture, as you reject the words of Jesus Christ.

So obviously you yourself don't believe that all of Scripture is correct. It's just that you reject the most critical parts of the Scripture: you hold Jesus Christ's teachings to be false.

(As well, anyone who advances the idea that because something is "God-breathed" that it is therefore infallible is themself violating what Scripture says on this matter.

(Proof that those who had theopneusties [i.e., literally God-breathed experiences] were not infallible [even after they had been given the gift of the Holy Spirit] comes from the New Testament itself. See Galatians 2:11-21, where Paul strongly rebukes Peter for Peter's error in teaching that people still had to obey the so-called "Law of Moses"--and this is after the apostles had been given the gift of the Holy Spirit [see Acts 2:1-4]! So obviously even the apostles themselves were not incapable of error, even after having been given the Holy Spirit.

(So simply being "God-breathed" does not mean infallible. The two terms are not synonyms. "God-breathed" means precisely that: *inspired* by God [inspired literally means breathed into].)


Quote
All of existence is God-breathed. The issue is to what degree a particular truth-claim comes from the ultimate truth of the Godhead.
Let's try this again...
2Tim 3:16  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
This is a yes or no statement.  It is a declaration by Scripture that it is ordained from God.  If one believes this to be true, the undeniable result is the understanding of inerrancy.  If one does not believe this to be true, they have declared that the Scriptures contain lies, thus can not be divine.  There are no degrees of truth to the Scriptures.

You yourself don't believe in Scripture. Thus, you are being a hypocrite on this matter. Even worse than being just a hypocrite, you are being an especially demon-possessed hypocrite on this matter, as you encourage others to disregard Jesus Christ's unambiguous Commandment of the Golden Rule.

He told you in no uncertain terms that the only way you can authentically worship Him is by following His Commandment.

Yet you have tried to create a false dichotomy here. There is no discontinuity between belief and action. If one believes in something, then one will act upon it. And actions (in the sense of consciously-chosen action) can only be the result of beliefs a person holds. Thus, ultimately belief and action are one and the same (in the sense that any consciously-chosen action must be the result of some belief).

Yet if one does not follow what Jesus Christ commanded, then one does not actually believe in Jesus Christ. Instead one believes in a lie. And that lie is necessarily a Satanic lie, since Christ's Commandment of the Golden Rule is a binary option: to not follow it is to do the opposite of it.

Jesus Christ is quite clear that the only way one can believe in Him is by following His Commandment (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

""
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
""

And as Jesus said in John 14:15,23,24:

""
"If you love Me, keep My commandments. ...

... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."
""

Jesus leaves no room in His clear teachings for your false doctrine.


Quote
Those who claim that the Bible is infallible are making a false claim.

Wrong, but those who claim the Bible to be errant, are calling the Scriptures, lies.

You yourself believe the Bible to be errant, but you believe so in the most egregious of way, as you make Jesus Christ out to be a liar.


Quote
The Bible contradicts itself in many places (particularly the Old Testament--the disagreements which occur in the New Testament are precisely those one would expect from different eyewitnesses).

The Bible is inerrant. ...

That is either a statement made out of extreme ignorance or it is a lie. Either way, such a statement is hardly Christian in its character.

You are also here being hypocritical, as you yourself hold the Bible to be false in many places. It's just that where you hold the Bible to be false are also the most important parts of the Bible: the teachings of Jesus Christ.


... God Breathed, means it comes from Him.  However, nowhere does the Bible claim that God's Hand came down from Heaven and penned the words.  He used His prophets and chosen people to write down what the Spirit has led them to proclaim.  This does not mean that trivial matters can't disagree, it means that no Doctrine, teaching, and law will contradict the attributes of God.  If one person sees 4,000 soldiers and another sees 40,000, one wonders if they had the same vantage point, the same eyesight, the same focus of attention.  Humans wrote the Words as directed by God, and obviously He doesn't consider the trivial matters, important.  (What a concept!) You can not name one significant contradiction, only the minutia...  That is Inerrant.

So you yourself readily agree that the Bible is not correct in all of its statements as to fact. However, even though the Bible makes statements which are factually untrue, this does not make the Bible errant, says you.

Actually, that's the meaning of errancy. You're engaging in doublethink.

You do Christianity no favor by engaging is such deplorable behavior, as by such behavior you simply encourage the idea that Christians are either stupid or are liars.

As Prof. Michael R. Licona--who has written the most comprehensive scholarly investigation to date on the historicity of Jesus Christ's resurrection--has said, if Jesus rose from the dead then Christianity is true even if everything else in the Bible is false (although, as I previously indicated, the New Testament is quite reliable).

Those who make the claim of the Bible's inerrancy do so from a lack of belief in Jesus Christ. They fear that Jesus Christ's historicity and Godhead is a fiction, and so wish to nip in the bud any attempt to fully rationally understand the accounts of His Incarnation.

I know probably more so than anyone else alive on this planet that Jesus Christ rose from the dead in order to save us, and that Jesus Christ is
    the Second Person of the Trinity. Moreover, I know what those statements mean in the sense of physical and empirical science.

Hence, I do not have the fears that you have that Jesus Christ's historicity and Godhead is a fiction. Because I do not share your fears that Christ is a fiction, I am free to take the Bible as it is, warts and all, instead of trying to shoehorn it into some false manmade theology founded in fear and disbelief.


Quote
As Prof. Michael R. Licona--who has written the most comprehensive scholarly investigation to date on the historicity of Jesus Christ's resurrection--has said, if Jesus rose from the dead then Christianity is true even if everything else in the Bible is false (although, as I previously indicated, the New Testament is quite reliable).

Mike Licona made this statement as a possible apocryphal view of Matthew 27.  He runs RisenJesus Ministries, and made this idea known in accordance with his declared belief in the inerrancy of Scripture.

Matthew 27:52,53 is easily explained as theopneusties.

But as I previously mentioned, Prof. Michael R. Licona quite correctly said that if Jesus rose from the dead then Christianity is true even if everything else in the Bible is false (although, as I previously indicated, the New Testament is quite reliable).


Quote
Those who make the claim of the Bible's inerrancy do so from a lack of belief in Jesus Christ.

No, those who hold to the inerrancy of Scripture, like Dr. Licona, hold to a standard higher than themselves.

But you yourself admitted above that the Bible makes statements which are factually untrue.

And Prof. Licona has stated that the only thing that matters as regards the truth of Christianity is if Jesus rose from the dead.


Quote
They fear that Jesus Christ's historicity and Godhead is a fiction, and so wish to nip in the bud any attempt to fully rationally understand the accounts of His Incarnation.

This is absurd.  1. You do not know what billions of Christians for the last 2,000 years believe.  2.  There is NO reference point to this inane assumption.  3.  This is the first I have heard of this fiction, and hopefully the last.

You yourself admitted above that the Bible makes statements which are factually untrue.


Quote
I know probably more so than anyone else alive on this planet that Jesus Christ rose from the dead in order to save us, and that Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity.

I will pass on this statement, under the presumption of the Glory of His grace in your life.

God has graced me to a magnificent extent, indeed.


Quote
Moreover, I know what those statements mean in the sense of physical and empirical science.

If your foundation is the based in the truth of Scripture, so be it.  If it is in conflict with any Biblical doctrine, Old or New Testament, you are wrong.

Yet you yourself don't believe in many parts of the Bible. It's just that the parts of the Bible you disbelieve in are the most crucial parts: the teachings of Jesus Christ.


Quote
Hence, I do not have the fears that you have that Jesus Christ's historicity and Godhead is a fiction. Because I do not share your fears that Christ is a fiction, I am free to take the Bible as it is, warts and all, instead of trying to shoehorn it into some false manmade theology founded in fear and disbelief.

This is your idea of substantiating of your Non-Biblical views?  You do NOT know my fears.  You do NOT know of my personal relationship with Jesus, other than what is in the Bible.  It does make one wonder where you get your views.

You have already made quite clear that you reject Jesus Christ's teachings. Thus, the relationship you have with Jesus Christ is that of an adversary.


Quote
I am telling you and everyone to believe what Jesus said. Jesus already told you and everyone that the only way you can believe in Him is to actually follow what He told you to follow (see Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).

There is a complete opposite position to your understanding in the Scripture.  First:
Eph 2:8,9  8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
This is not ambiguous.  Salvation is a gift of God by faith.  And this faith is from God.  Not by works!  If your understanding of Matt. and Luke's verses were correct, you would be promoting a works based salvation, in opposition to the Word of God.  However, if you realize that these verses are a RESULT of salvation, there is no contradiction.

Yes, faith only. Yet you are trying to create a false dichotomy here. There is no discontinuity between belief and action. If one believes in something, then one will act upon it. And actions (in the sense of consciously-chosen action) can only be the result of beliefs a person holds. Thus, ultimately belief and action are one and the same (in the sense that any consciously-chosen action must be the result of some belief).

Yet if one does not follow what Jesus Christ commanded, then one does not actually believe in Jesus Christ. Instead one believes in a lie. And that lie is necessarily a Satanic lie, since Christ's Commandment of the Golden Rule is a binary option: to not follow it is to do the opposite of it.

Jesus Christ is quite clear that the only way one can believe in Him is by following His Commandment (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

""
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
""

And as Jesus said in John 14:15,23,24:

""
"If you love Me, keep My commandments. ...

... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."
""

Jesus leaves no room in His clear teachings for your false and demonic doctrine.


Quote
Yet if one does not follow what Jesus Christ commanded, then one does not actually believe in Jesus Christ. Instead one believes in a lie.

You must be sinless.  First command you miss, it's the eternal fire.  Wow, I will take His grace for my sins, and be forever grateful.

No, because if one does sin it's because one does not genuinely believe in Jesus Christ. Furthermore, Jesus Christ also spoke of genuine repentance, viz., Matthew 9:13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32; 15:7; 24:47; 1 John 1:8-10.

You are forgetting that human beings are contradictory creatures, and so often vacillate in their beliefs moment to moment. One can for a moment forget Jesus Christ's Commandment and the importance of
    abiding in it and then the next moment realize that one was wrong. If one actually held the primacy of Jesus Christ's Commandment in their mind at every moment then it would be impossible for one to violate it, by definition: that is what "primacy" means, i.e., that nothing can take its place. It doesn't mean that that's the only thing one has on one's mind, it simply means that one will not allow one's mind to be taken over by something which would cause one to violate Jesus's Commandment.

The above paragraph mostly concerns actions taken on impulse. But there is another aspect of this violation of Christ's teachings, and that is when people choose with aforethought to violate Jesus Christ's Commandment, whether due to convenience, societal disapprobation, or fear for their livelihood.

In either case, it's because at the moment of violation one has put something else into one's mind which takes precedence over following what Jesus has commanded, i.e., that one does not actually believe in the truth of Jesus Christ's Commandment at the time. That is, one does not believe that Jesus Christ's message is true, and hence that one does not actually believe in Jesus. For if one truly believed in Jesus then one would trust Him, i.e., one would have faith in Him. By violating Jesus Christ's Commandment, one clearly demonstrates that one has no faith in Him, at least at the time of violation.

And that gets us into the matter that many people choose to follow Jesus when it is convenient for them to do so, but when it becomes inconvenient to follow His teachings they readily disregard them. That encompasses most of the co-called "Christian" churches (i.e., government churches). Jesus Christ told us what the fate of these people will be (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

""
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
""

If the objection be raised that this vacillatory nature of man implies that he is saved at one moment and damned at the next, then the same objection can be applied to the abstract concept that some person named "Jesus" is Lord and Savior and that believing in this person's Godhead is required in order for one to be saved. What of those who vacillate in that belief? Are they saved in one moment and damned in the next?

With actions it makes belief far more concrete, instead of some ethereal concept by which one feels no need to actually abide by Jesus Christ's Commandment. And again, as I said, there is no dichotomy between belief and action, because if one truly believed then one would act upon that belief.

As humans, we are contradictory in nature, and so we vacillate in our beliefs, and that vacillation in belief becomes manifest in our actions. But God knows the sum total of our minds, and He is able to discern whether or not a person has attempted to make a *genuine* effort to abide by Jesus Christ's Commandment. That is to say, the overriding constitution of a person's mind.

I find that those who promote your false and demonic doctrine are liable to damnation, because it just becomes a meaningless and self-congratulatory undertaking whereby people don't have a genuine concern as to what Jesus actually commanded people to follow. They pat themselves on the back that they are saved meanwhile they promote the Satanic horrors of etatism.

And so no, contrary to that, genuine belief in Jesus Christ will manifest itself in action. As I said, there is no dichotomy between belief and action. There does exist the vacillatory nature of man, but with each vacillation there is a belief which undergirds it. Simply because people are often contradictory is no excuse for violating Jesus Christ's Command. If one should violate it, then it is incumbent upon one to strive steadfastly to correct the wrong and, moreover, to correct one's own self.


Quote
And that lie is necessarily a Satanic lie, since Christ's Commandment of the Golden Rule is a binary option: to not follow it is to do the opposite of it.

It is NOT binary.  What do you do with sins of omission?

If one omitted doing something that was required per Jesus Christ's Commandment, then that would be a violation of the Golden Rule.

Again, there are only two options: to either abide by Jesus Christ's Commandment, or to not abide by it. To not abide by it is to violate it.


Quote
Jesus Christ is quite clear that the only way one can believe in Him is by following His Commandment (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

How can you understand Scripture if you don't even know if it is true?  There are really only 2 belief systems to get into heaven.  1. Works  2.  Grace, through faith. You have chosen the Non Biblical methodology, and like Isaiah says:
64:6  All of us have become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Jesus gave His Blood as the Perfect Sacrifice.  The propitiation for our sins.  Neither you, I, nor anyone else gets into heaven because of what we do.  Those are called WORKS, and the will NOT save!  We follow His commands because we love Him, not to earn anything...
Until you understand what Jesus did for you then you will never truly appreciate the complete gift of God you received when you asked Jesus to be your Lord and Savior.  He is the Savior, not us...

I am not the one rejecting Jesus Christ. I accept His teachings. You are the one rejecting Jesus Christ. Even worse, you are encouraging others to do so (cf. Matthew 18:6; Luke 17:2) with your false and Satanic doctrine.

As I said, there is no dichotomy between belief and action. All consciously-chosen action is predicated upon belief. We can either make conscious choices based upon correct belief, or false belief--but some form of belief must be involved in order to make a consciously-chosen action.

What you are promoting is a truly demonic doctrine, as it is this false doctrine which is in large part responsible for most of those who call themselves "Christians" feeling that they are completely free to ignore Jesus Christ's teachings. Jesus Christ is quite clear that the only way one can believe in Him is by following His Commandment. Below is what Jesus states is to be the fate of those who violate his Command (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49; John 14:12,15,21,23,24; 15:10; 1 John 2:3-6; 5:2,3):

""
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the w
   inds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
""
Author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), revised ed., Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2001) http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761 , http://theophysics.host56.com/anarchist-jesus.pdf
Theophysics: God Is the Ultimate Physicist (a website with information on Prof. Frank

3

maranatha33

  • **
  • 35 Posts
    • View Profile
The Aseity of God
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2012, 02:09:22 am »

You reject the most important of Scripture, as you reject the words of Jesus Christ.

Simply put, Scripture can not contradict Scripture.  Your understanding of the golden rule is contradicted by Eph 2:8,9  8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.  

Your understanding of Scripture is wrong.  Not debatable.

So obviously you yourself don't believe that all of Scripture is correct. It's just that you reject the most critical parts of the Scripture: you hold Jesus Christ's teachings to be false.

If you start with a misunderstanding of Scripture this is where you end up.  Jesus never said we could earn salvation.  It is a free gift from the only Perfect sacrifice for our sins.  And it cheapens the ultimate price He paid for us on the Cross, by claiming otherwise.  If the Apostle Paul can say that he still sins, (by the flesh) then by your reasoning, Paul is in Hell.  Don't think so.

As well, anyone who advances the idea that because something is "God-breathed" that it is therefore infallible is themself violating what Scripture says on this matter.

It violates your misunderstanding of Scripture, but Sola Fida is still true, just read Romans...

See Galatians 2:11-21, where Paul strongly rebukes Peter for Peter's error in teaching that people still had to obey the so-called "Law of Moses"--and this is after the apostles had been given the gift of the Holy Spirit [see Acts 2:1-4]!

Please tell me you are joking.  Paul rebuking Peter hardly invalidates Scripture.  In fact, it actually verifies the Truth, since historical figures were seldom presented as flawed characters in historical writings...

So obviously even the apostles themselves were not incapable of error, even after having been given the Holy Spirit.

Everyone who ever lived, with the exception of the Lord, Himself, is flawed.  "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" comes to mind.

(So simply being "God-breathed" does not mean infallible. The two terms are not synonyms. "God-breathed" means precisely that: *inspired* by God [inspired literally means breathed into].)

Actually it means breathed out of, Coming from, not going too...



You yourself don't believe in Scripture. Thus, you are being a hypocrite on this matter. Even worse than being just a hypocrite, you are being an especially demon-possessed hypocrite on this matter, as you encourage others to disregard Jesus Christ's unambiguous Commandment of the Golden Rule.

Your assumption that the golden rule is the requirement for heaven is completely false.  You are trying to find things to validate your works, but you only contradict Scripture.

He told you in no uncertain terms that the only way you can authentically worship Him is by following His Commandment.

You are really stretching, James.  First it is "loved", not "worship".  Second, neither is a requirement for salvation.  The only commandment the Lord gave us for salvation is "You must be born again."  After being born again, you will fall in love with Jesus, but it is a result of, not a method to, salvation.

Yet you have tried to create a false dichotomy here. There is no discontinuity between belief and action. If one believes in something, then one will act upon it. And actions (in the sense of consciously-chosen action) can only be the result of beliefs a person holds. Thus, ultimately belief and action are one and the same (in the sense that any consciously-chosen action must be the result of some belief).

This is no more than stretching to prove your anti Biblical position.  The only requirement for salvation is being born again.  Then when the Holy
Spirit takes up residence, our love grows.  Belief and action the same thing?  Don't tell the Apostle Peter that, He denied even knowing Jesus.  Is this action worthy of Hell?

Yet if one does not follow what Jesus Christ commanded, then one does not actually believe in Jesus Christ. Instead one believes in a lie. And that lie is necessarily a Satanic lie, since Christ's Commandment of the Golden Rule is a binary option: to not follow it is to do the opposite of it.

Boy you really have a problem here.  If you sin, do you lose your salvation?  Jesus never taught us to sin, you know.  So one sin and your out.  No security there, and heaven must be empty of humans...

Jesus Christ is quite clear that the only way one can believe in Him is by following His Commandment (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

Mt 7:21  "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

What is the work (and will by default) of God?  To believe in the One that He has sent.

Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Are you getting the works connection here?  The three previously mentioned "works" Bring what?  A declaration that Jesus "never knew" them.

And as Jesus said in John 14:15,23,24:

"If you love Me, keep My commandments. ...
... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."

We have 2 choices here... Either being born again fills the believer with the Holy Spirit, causing the Love relationship, or the loving relationship causes salvation.  The Bible is quite clear, here.  Remember "Not by works"?  There are only 2 belief systems for attaining eternity in heaven.  One says that we are measured by our works.  The other says we can not achieve salvation on our own, and require the propitiation of Jesus' Blood.  

Jesus leaves no room in His clear teachings for your false doctrine.

You can not reconcile your philosophy with Scripture.  You can't jump through enough hoops to be without sin, which is required for permanent residence in heaven.  God will not be in the presence of sin.  However, if He sees a believer through the Blood of Christ, then Jesus' perfect and sinless life is propitiated to those who ask.  If your scenario was true, then how do you know when you sin, that you are forgiven?  You can't.  You have already broken your rules.

You obviously do a lot of academic work, but Jesus tells us to "Come to Him like a little Child".  Faith alone for salvation.  The horse is in front of the cart, not behind it.  Born again, alone.  The manifestation of the Holy Spirit in our lives is a gift from Him, not a payment from us.  Then, and only then, can you love the Lord.  And this is the "Good News".  The good news is not that we have to be perfect, since we don't know which sin may cause us to lose salvation.

Your lengthy and delayed response didn't help your cause.  Weak debating techniques.  You are obviously more interested in "proving" your signature lines then finding Biblical Truth.  If you study other academics, like maybe Dr. Lane Craig, you will find that there is a truth that you insist on ignoring.  Note;  I
   do not include the members of the "Jesus seminar."  To quote Dr. John MacArthur, "I do not suggest throwing away the findings of the Jesus Seminar, lightly.  Actually I suggest throwing them away with as much force as possible."  Since you want to debate the Truth of Scripture ad nauseum,  Maybe another Christian can get through.  I am not being patronizing, here... I am sincerely concerned that you may be in the "Never knew you" category, And there is nothing in your life more important then changing that...   I will be praying for you...





M33

4

JamesRedford

  • **
  • 73 Posts
    • View Profile
The Aseity of God
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2012, 12:51:18 pm »
maranatha33 wrote:
You reject the most important of Scripture, as you reject the words of Jesus Christ.

Simply put, Scripture can not contradict Scripture.  Your understanding of the golden rule is contradicted by Eph 2:8,9  8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.  

Your understanding of Scripture is wrong.  Not debatable.

But you yourself said that Scripture contradicts Scripture. It's just that you said that you did not consider those contradictions to be important ones. And you are quite correct that the Bible contains contradictions, particularly in the Old Testament. To say otherwise would be to speak in ignorance or mendaciousness.

Nor does Ephesians 2:8,9 contradict Jesus Christ's clear statements on this matter. You are trying to create a false dichotomy in order so that you can have an excuse for ignoring Jesus Christ's clear Command to everyone.

As I said, there is no dichotomy between belief and action. All consciously-chosen action is predicated upon belief. We can either make conscious choices based upon correct belief, or false belief--but some form of belief must be involved in order to make a consciously-chosen action. This is logically unavoidable.

What you are promoting is a truly demonic doctrine, as it is this false doctrine which is in large part responsible for most of those who call themselves "Christians" feeling that they are completely free to ignore Jesus Christ's teachings. Jesus Christ is quite clear that the only way one can believe in Him is by following His Commandment. Below is what Jesus states is to be the fate of those who violate his Command (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49; John 14:12,15,21,23,24; 15:10; 1 John 2:3-6; 5:2,3):

""
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
""

There is nothing ambiguous about Jesus Christ's above statement. You're attempting to create a false dichotomy between belief and action with Ephesians 2:8,9, but there is no dichotomy between belief and consciously-chosen action. Your illogical interpretation of Ephesians 2:8,9 is causing you to reject Christ's unambiguous teachings on this matter.

Ephesians 2:8,9 is perfectly consistent with the logically unavoidable fact that all consciously-chosen action is predicated upon belief.


Quote
So obviously you yourself don't believe that all of Scripture is correct. It's just that you reject the most critical parts of the Scripture: you hold Jesus Christ's teachings to be false.

If you start with a misunderstanding of Scripture this is where you end up.  Jesus never said we could earn salvation.  It is a free gift from the only Perfect sacrifice for our sins.  And it cheapens the ultimate price He paid for us on the Cross, by claiming otherwise.  If the Apostle Paul can say that he still sins, (by the flesh) then by your reasoning, Paul is in Hell.  Don't think so.

See above. You're trying to create a false dichotomy in order to have an excuse for ignoring Jesus Christ's unambiguous teachings on this matter.

God knows the sum total of our minds, and He is able to discern whether or not a person has attempted to make a *genuine* effort to abide by Jesus Christ's Commandment and to repent if having violated it. (On repentance, see Matthew 9:13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32; 15:7; 24:47; 1 John 1:8-10. Cf. John 5:14; 8:11.) So your attempt to dichotomize belief and consciously-chosen action doesn't work, nor could it work, since logically speaking some form of belief must be involved in order to make a consciously-chosen action.


Quote
As well, anyone who advances the idea that because something is "God-breathed" that it is therefore infallible is themself violating what Scripture says on this matter.

It violates your misunderstanding of Scripture, but Sola Fida is still true, just read Romans...

No mortal human has ever had a better understanding of Scripture than do I. I don't say that out of arrogance, I say that because it is the truth, because I speak the truth and I because want others to know the truth. I was called by Jesus for a reason, and that reason is to explain to people (1) theological ethics and soteriology in a comprehensive and logically-coherent manner; (2) how the known laws of physics prove God's existence while demonstrating the exacting and extensive consilience of the New Testament with said physical laws; (3) the nature of God in light of said physical laws; (4) the End Time, the Tribulation, the Second Coming of Jesus, the foundation of Heaven on Earth, and the universal resurrection of the dead in light of said physical laws; and (5) the End Time in light of the history of the globalist oligarchy's self-termed New World Order world government and world religion agenda.

Item No. 1 is important vis-à-vis salvation for those who maintain that they already believe in Jesus Christ's Godhead. Items Nos. 2-5 are important in letting atheists, believers in other religions, and nominal ersatz "Christians" know that God as described by the New Testament does exist and that the New Testament is true. Items Nos. 2-5 are additionally important in giving believers in Christ a much deeper understanding of God and of the End Time, so that they may be strengthened in their faith during the extreme horrors to come and so that they will not fall for the deceptions of the Beast governmental system.

For the explication of the foregoing items, read my below articles:

James Redford, "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Aug. 6, 2012 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2011), 186 pp., doi:10.2139/ssrn.1974708, http://ssrn.com/abstract=1974708 , http://archive.org/search.php?query=t74t7n54x , http://scribd.com/doc/79273334 , http://theophysics.host56.com/Redford-Physics-of-God.pdf , http://webcitation.org/69kSvuziV , http://flashmirrors.com/files/1foosl5woi2rgy2/Redford-Physics-of-God.pdf .

James Redford, "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2001), 60 pp., doi:10.2139/ssrn.1337761, http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761 , http://theophysics.host56.com/anarchist-jesus.pdf , http://webcitation.org/66AIz2rJw .

James Redford, "Libertarian Anarchism Is Apodictically Correct", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Dec. 15, 2011, 9 pp., doi:10.2139/ssrn.1972733, http://ssrn.com/abstract=1972733 , http://theophysics.host56.com/Redford-Apodictic-Libertarianism.pdf , http://webcitation.org/63xyCLjLm .

And again, you're above trying to create a false dichotomy in order to have an excuse for ignoring Jesus Christ's unambiguous teachings on this matter. However, there is no dichotomy between belief and action. All consciously-chosen action is predicated upon belief. We can either make conscious choices based upon co
   rrect belief, or false belief--but some form of belief must be involved in order to make a consciously-chosen action. This is logically unavoidable.


Quote
See Galatians 2:11-21, where Paul strongly rebukes Peter for Peter's error in teaching that people still had to obey the so-called "Law of Moses"--and this is after the apostles had been given the gift of the Holy Spirit [see Acts 2:1-4]!

Please tell me you are joking.  Paul rebuking Peter hardly invalidates Scripture.  In fact, it actually verifies the Truth, since historical figures were seldom presented as flawed characters in historical writings...

Yet the Holy Spirit is the God-breathed Presence given to the faithful--indeed, according to Scripture God imparts His inspiration via the Holy Spirit--and so according to your illogic, those who have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit by definition cannot commit error, since that is what "God-breathed" means according to you.

Your error is that that is not what "God-breathed" means: the definition of "God-breathed" does not mean "infallible". "God-breathed" literally means "inspired by God" ("inspired" literally means "breathed into"). Being inspired by God leaves open the possibility for error.

My above articles are God-breathed, as are my postings on this forum. Indeed, I was converted from atheism by a direct revelation from Jesus Christ for exactly this purpose: to help people come to a much deeper understanding of God. But that doesn't make me infallible.

You're making up false definitions and these false definitions are leading you into theological error.


Quote
So obviously even the apostles themselves were not incapable of error, even after having been given the Holy Spirit.

Everyone who ever lived, with the exception of the Lord, Himself, is flawed.  "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" comes to mind.

Yes, that is what I have been saying.


Quote
(So simply being "God-breathed" does not mean infallible. The two terms are not synonyms. "God-breathed" means precisely that: *inspired* by God [inspired literally means breathed into].)

Actually it means breathed out of, Coming from, not going too...

There you go with your incorrect definitions again.

The word you're describing would be "expired". "Inspired" literally means "breathed into".

According to John A. Simpson and Edmund S. C. Weiner (Eds.), The Oxford English Dictionary (Oxford, UK: Clarendon Press, 2nd ed., 1989):

""
expiration (____________). Also 7 exsp-.
[ad. L. ex(s)p_ration-em, n. of action f. ex(s)p_rare to expire.]
The action of expiring.
1. The action of breathing out (air, etc.); emission (of air, wind, etc.); an instance of this. Const. of.

...
""

""
inspire (___________), v. Forms: _. 4­7 enspire, 5 enspyr, 5­6 enspyre. _. 4 ynspyre, -ire, 4­7 inspyre, 6 Sc. inspyr, -ir, 5­ inspire.
[a. OF. enspirer, inspirer (13th c.), espirer (12th c. in Littre), ad. L. insp_rare to blow or breathe into, f. in- (in-2) + sp_rare to breathe.]
I. Literal (physical) senses.
1. trans. To breathe or blow upon or into. Obs. or arch.

...
""


Quote
You yourself don't believe in Scripture. Thus, you are being a hypocrite on this matter. Even worse than being just a hypocrite, you are being an especially demon-possessed hypocrite on this matter, as you encourage others to disregard Jesus Christ's unambiguous Commandment of the Golden Rule.

Your assumption that the golden rule is the requirement for heaven is completely false.  You are trying to find things to validate your works, but you only contradict Scripture.

Jesus Christ said that there are only two requirements for a person to receive eternal life (Luke 10:25-28, New King James Version; cf. Matthew 19:19; 22:36-40; Mark 12:28-34):

""
And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?"

So he answered and said, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.'"

And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."
""

But these two requirements actually logically reduce to only one requirement: to love your neighbor as yourself. As Jesus said anything that we do to any of the least of His brethren we do to Him (see Matthew 25:31-46). So if we truly love each other then we automatically love God as well (cf. 1 John 2:10; 4:20).

When Jesus said of Himself, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6, New King James Version; cf. John 11:25), He was there being as literal as it is possible to be. In other words, the Second Person of the Trinity is literally *truth itself*, i.e., the Logos (see John 1:1-5).

An equivalent formulation of this is Jesus's ethic of the Golden Rule which He commanded everyone to follow (see Matthew 7:12; Luke 6:31). Another equivalent formulation of this is Jesus's Commandment that we love one another as He has loved us (see John 15:12,17; 13:15,34,35; 1 John 3:11,12,23; 4:11,20,21). Everything that Jesus ever commanded people to do can be logically reduced back to this one principle.

As John wrote in one of his letters (1 John 2:10, New King James Version): "He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him." As Paul wrote, "Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:10, New King James Version; cf. Romans 13:8-10; Galatians 5:13,14; 1 Corinthians 13:1-13.) This is the Perfect Law of Liberty and the Royal Law (see James 1:25; 2:8-12).


Quote
He told you in no uncertain terms that the only way you can authentically worship Him is by following His Commandment.

You are really stretching, James.  First it is "loved", not "worship".  Second, neither is a requirement for salvation.  The only commandment the Lord gave us for salvation is "You must be born again."  After being born again, you will fall in love with Jesus, but it is a result of, not a method to, salvation.

Going by this illogic of yours, one can be a saved without loving Jesus Christ. Furthermore, love is a component of worship: to worship someone is to love that someone, as well as to abide by that someone. Jesus said that if one genuinely loves Him that one will abide by His Commandments: see John 14:12,15,21,23,24; 15:10; 1 John 2:3-6; 5:2,3. Thus, according to Jesus's statements on this issue, to be genuinely born again one must abide by His Commandments (cf. Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).


Quote
Yet you have tried to create a false dichotomy here. There is no discontinuity between belief and action. If one believes in something, then one will act upon it. And actions (in the sense of consciously-chosen action) can only be the result of beliefs a person holds. Thus, ultimately belief and action are one and the same (in the sense that any consciously-chosen action must be the result of some belief).

This is no more than stretching to prove your anti Biblical position.  The only requirement for salvation is being born again.  Then when the Holy
Spirit takes up residence, our love grows.  Belief and action the same thing?  Don't tell the Apostle Peter that, He denied even knowing Jesus.  Is this action worthy of Hell?

Jesus said that if one genuinely loves Him that one will abide by His Commandments: see John 14:12,15,21,23,24; 15:10; 1 John 2:3-6;
   5:2,3. Thus, according to Jesus's statements on this issue, to be genuinely born again one must abide by His Commandments (cf. Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).

God knows the sum total of our minds, and He is able to discern whether or not a person has attempted to make a *genuine* effort to abide by Jesus Christ's Commandments and to repent if having violated it. (On repentance, see Matthew 9:13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32; 15:7; 24:47; 1 John 1:8-10. Cf. John 5:14; 8:11.) So your attempt to dichotomize belief and consciously-chosen action doesn't work, nor could it work, since logically speaking some form of belief must be involved in order to make a consciously-chosen action.


Quote
Yet if one does not follow what Jesus Christ commanded, then one does not actually believe in Jesus Christ. Instead one believes in a lie. And that lie is necessarily a Satanic lie, since Christ's Commandment of the Golden Rule is a binary option: to not follow it is to do the opposite of it.

Boy you really have a problem here.  If you sin, do you lose your salvation?  Jesus never taught us to sin, you know.  So one sin and your out.  No security there, and heaven must be empty of humans...

God knows the sum total of our minds, and He is able to discern whether or not a person has attempted to make a *genuine* effort to abide by Jesus Christ's Commandment and to repent if having violated it. (On repentance, see Matthew 9:13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32; 15:7; 24:47; 1 John 1:8-10. Cf. John 5:14; 8:11.) So your attempt to dichotomize belief and consciously-chosen action doesn't work, nor could it work, since logically speaking some form of belief must be involved in order to make a consciously-chosen action.


Quote
Jesus Christ is quite clear that the only way one can believe in Him is by following His Commandment (Matthew 7:21-27, New King James Version; cf. Luke 6:46-49):

Mt 7:21  "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

What is the work (and will by default) of God?  To believe in the One that He has sent.

Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Are you getting the works connection here?  The three previously mentioned "works" Bring what?  A declaration that Jesus "never knew" them.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:24-27:

""
"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
""

Christ commanded everyone to abide by the Golden Rule (see Matthew 7:12; Luke 6:31). Another equivalent formulation of this is Jesus's Commandment that we love one another as He has loved us (see John 15:12,17; 13:15,34,35; 1 John 3:11,12,23; 4:11,20,21). Everything that Jesus ever commanded people to do can be logically reduced back to this one principle.

Further, Jesus Christ said that there are only two requirements for a person to receive eternal life (Luke 10:25-28, New King James Version; cf. Matthew 19:19; 22:36-40; Mark 12:28-34):

""
And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?"

So he answered and said, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.'"

And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."
""

But these two requirements actually logically reduce to only one requirement: to love your neighbor as yourself. As Jesus said anything that we do to any of the least of His brethren we do to Him (see Matthew 25:31-46). So if we truly love each other then we automatically love God as well (cf. 1 John 2:10; 4:20).

When Jesus said of Himself, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6, New King James Version; cf. John 11:25), He was there being as literal as it is possible to be. In other words, the Second Person of the Trinity is literally *truth itself*, i.e., the Logos (see John 1:1-5).


Quote
And as Jesus said in John 14:15,23,24:

"If you love Me, keep My commandments. ...
... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."

We have 2 choices here... Either being born again fills the believer with the Holy Spirit, causing the Love relationship, or the loving relationship causes salvation.  The Bible is quite clear, here.  Remember "Not by works"?  There are only 2 belief systems for attaining eternity in heaven.  One says that we are measured by our works.  The other says we can not achieve salvation on our own, and require the propitiation of Jesus' Blood.

As I said, there is no dichotomy between belief and action. All consciously-chosen action is predicated upon belief. We can either make conscious choices based upon correct belief, or false belief--but some form of belief must be involved in order to make a consciously-chosen action. This is logically unavoidable.


Quote
Jesus leaves no room in His clear teachings for your false doctrine.

You can not reconcile your philosophy with Scripture.  You can't jump through enough hoops to be without sin, which is required for permanent residence in heaven.  God will not be in the presence of sin.  However, if He sees a believer through the Blood of Christ, then Jesus' perfect and sinless life is propitiated to those who ask.  If your scenario was true, then how do you know when you sin, that you are forgiven?  You can't.  You have already broken your rules.

God knows the sum total of our minds, and He is able to discern whether or not a person has attempted to make a *genuine* effort to abide by Jesus Christ's Commandment and to repent if having violated it. (On repentance, see Matthew 9:13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32; 15:7; 24:47; 1 John 1:8-10. Cf. John 5:14; 8:11.) So your attempt to dichotomize belief and consciously-chosen action doesn't work, nor could it work, since logically speaking some form of belief must be involved in order to make a consciously-chosen action.


You obviously do a lot of academic work, but Jesus tells us to "Come to Him like a little Child".  Faith alone for salvation.  The horse is in front of the cart, not behind it.  Born again, alone.  The manifestation of the Holy Spirit in our lives is a gift from Him, not a payment from us.  Then, and only then, can you love the Lord.  And this is the "Good News".  The good news is not that we have to be perfect, since we don't know which sin may cause us to lose salvation.

Jesus said that if one genuinely loves Him that one will abide by His Commandments: see John 14:12,15,21,23,24; 15:10; 1 John 2:3-6; 5:2,3. Thus, according to Jesus's statements on this issue, to be genuinely born again one must abide by His Commandments (cf. Matthew 7:21-27; Luke 6:46-49).


Your lengthy and del
   ayed response didn't help your cause.  Weak debating techniques.  You are obviously more interested in "proving" your signature lines then finding Biblical Truth.  If you study other academics, like maybe Dr. Lane Craig, you will find that there is a truth that you insist on ignoring.  Note;  I do not include the members of the "Jesus seminar."  To quote Dr. John MacArthur, "I do not suggest throwing away the findings of the Jesus Seminar, lightly.  Actually I suggest throwing them away with as much force as possible."  Since you want to debate the Truth of Scripture ad nauseum,  Maybe another Christian can get through.  I am not being patronizing, here... I am sincerely concerned that you may be in the "Never knew you" category, And there is nothing in your life more important then changing that...   I will be praying for you...

My cause is the truth, and the truth will out. My aforecited articles are part of the process of the truth coming to light. It is what I was born for. I was raised up by God for this purpose.

I make reference to Prof. William Lane Craig in my above-cited article "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything" and I have read a number of his works and watched a number of his lectures and debates. But Craig only expatiates within a narrow range of topics, whereas my above articles distill all of the most important aspects of veridical human knowledge into a comprehensive, coherent and unified whole: from theology, physics, science, ethics, legal theory, political theory, economics, sociology, epistemology to history.
Author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), revised ed., Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2001) http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761 , http://theophysics.host56.com/anarchist-jesus.pdf
Theophysics: God Is the Ultimate Physicist (a website with information on Prof. Frank

5

Anthony

  • **
  • 64 Posts
    • View Profile
The Aseity of God
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2012, 09:42:39 pm »
The Aseity of God is an interesting topic. I think that by definition, it is impossible to say that God needed a creator. If God needed a creator, then it wouldn't be God. It's that simple. Thus, there's no reason to think that the theist has a problem when trying to defend a proper definition of God. This relates to the Ontological argument. Since God is the greatest being there is in every possible world, then He exists. It makes a lot of sense when you think of it carefully. I find myself often confused and ignorant when it comes to astro-physics and Big Bang cosmology, but I leave that to William Lane Craig who is himself more well-read into the issue.
My account name, 'Copleston' is named after the famous Jesuit Philosopher, Frederick Copleston, who famously debated atheist philosopher, Bertrand Russell on BBC Radio in 1948.

6

JamesRedford

  • **
  • 73 Posts
    • View Profile
The Aseity of God
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2012, 10:03:41 pm »
Copleston wrote: The Aseity of God is an interesting topic. I think that by definition, it is impossible to say that God needed a creator. If God needed a creator, then it wouldn't be God. It's that simple. Thus, there's no reason to think that the theist has a problem when trying to defend a proper definition of God. This relates to the Ontological argument. Since God is the greatest being there is in every possible world, then He exists. It makes a lot of sense when you think of it carefully. I find myself often confused and ignorant when it comes to astro-physics and Big Bang cosmology, but I leave that to William Lane Craig who is himself more well-read into the issue.

While it may seem that simple, the issue is actually deeper than that. For a full development of the idea, see Sec. 7.2: "The Aseity of God" of my below article:

James Redford, "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Sept. 10, 2012 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2011), 186 pp., doi:10.2139/ssrn.1974708. http://ssrn.com/abstract=1974708 , http://archive.org/search.php?query=t74t7n54x , http://theophysics.host56.com/Redford-Physics-of-God.pdf , http://webcitation.org/6Abfap2bp , http://flashmirrors.com/files/0mawzqh3rumfvod
Author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), revised ed., Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2001) http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761 , http://theophysics.host56.com/anarchist-jesus.pdf
Theophysics: God Is the Ultimate Physicist (a website with information on Prof. Frank

7

Jesus4Life

  • Guest
Re: The Aseity of God
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2012, 07:47:19 pm »
From what I understand, the Aseity of God is His attributes. I may be wrong, but here is one thing I'll say about the Aseity of God and its relation to the Euthyphro dilemma. God is one. There can not co-exist God and logic or God and objective moral values. They are one in the same. I believe that Dr. Craig is correct in saying that the Euthyphro dilemma is simply a false dilemma. If there is anything that I strongly disagree with about Plato's work, then it would have to be the Euthyphro. 

8

JamesRedford

  • **
  • 73 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The Aseity of God
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2013, 06:20:47 pm »
From what I understand, the Aseity of God is His attributes. I may be wrong, but here is one thing I'll say about the Aseity of God and its relation to the Euthyphro dilemma. God is one. There can not co-exist God and logic or God and objective moral values. They are one in the same. I believe that Dr. Craig is correct in saying that the Euthyphro dilemma is simply a false dilemma. If there is anything that I strongly disagree with about Plato's work, then it would have to be the Euthyphro.

You and Prof. William Lane Craig are quite correct on this issue, Jesus4Life, insofar in that God has the property of aseity then the attributes of God also have aseity. But I think your phraseology is a bit off, Jesus4Life. Rather, by the "aseity of God" it is meant that God is self-existent and must necessarily exist, in the same manner and to the same degree that mathematics also has this property of self-existence and logical necessity (as Prof. Craig also has stated). For the details on this, see Sec. 7.1: "The Haecceities of God" and Sec. 7.2: "The Aseity of God" of my following article:

James Redford, "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Sept. 10, 2012 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2011), 186 pp., doi:10.2139/ssrn.1974708, http://ssrn.com/abstract=1974708 , http://archive.org/details/ThePhysicsOfGodAndTheQuantumGravityTheoryOfEverything , http://theophysics.host56.com/Redford-Physics-of-God.pdf , http://webcitation.org/6Abfap2bp
Author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), revised ed., Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2001) http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761 , http://theophysics.host56.com/anarchist-jesus.pdf
Theophysics: God Is the Ultimate Physicist (a website with information on Prof. Frank