Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2012, 11:42:21 am »

Speaking of debate style, I was watching Enqvist proceed in each of his time
slots, from "What are the weak points of your position" to "What would be an
alternative position to yours, a 'second-best' theory", to "What could make you
abandon your position", a trick I vaguely remember from college of getting one's
opponent to debate against himself only. It made me pity him more than any other
opponents Dr Craig has faced, and I was glad Dr. C did not point it out till the
last rebuttal.

Agreed--the entire time I was thinking, "man, this guy wants Dr. Craig to do his job for him!"  He didn't seem to have any arguments for the positive side of the question and asked Dr. Craig to come up with those rather than formulating a proper argument.  It was really a sad thing to see.


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Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2012, 01:54:05 pm »
DynamicXdesign wrote:

The arguments for God can be found in extant (current)biological processes as well as Singularity (causation) arguments.  We can seeGod's handiwork within heuristic-biased stochastic processes.  In other words, there are law-like"rules of thumb" that are applied at the quantum level (as withphotosynthesis) as well as the molecular level (through epigenetics and thegenome) and neurogenesis and neurological ontogenesis (development) -- as withhuman language acquisition.  At firstglance, these biases may seem loose, but they are as effective as thegravitational attraction of large masses discovered by Newton.  Our apologetical arguments for God need notbe confined to prehistory.  They arewritten across the natural world even at this moment.

The fact that there are fixed rules in nature doesn't promotes the argument of God. The director seems to be very predictable and don't apply important(key) factors of religious cosmic theory as ethics and Gods justice. On the other hand all the evidence of how nature work starting from simple and evolve as complicated as the procedure seems there seem to be no space for rational interference.

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Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2012, 02:40:10 pm »
The question "why the Universe is as it is" should be "why the Universe shouldn't be as it is" so the real argument of Theist can emerge which is "because it does not feel good". "Why" as Dawkins said in a silly question, when that "Why"concludes the human psychological factor and not the scientific neutral observation this "Why" seems like a mean to an end. Our mind is limited and is in constant communication with our senses and physiology. Science gives us a new perspective of the cosmos that has a wider Universal view, we have to go above our physiological convictions and needs and realize that nature doesn't wander around humans.

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sequence46

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Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2012, 05:34:38 pm »
Overall all Dr. Craig's has been debunked several times so at this point its not about who wins or loses because we know now the Dr. Craig is something just wrong. Plain and Simple. Its very funny that people forget Dr. Craig has NO science background but yet he continues to try to answer scientific question with secular suggestions. How long can Dr. Craig keep debating when science is increasingly answering all the questions Dr. Craig is posing. When Dr.Craig is proven wrong on any given point he just gets back on stage and says the same thing over and the science flys right over his head.

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Lawlessone777

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Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2012, 06:15:17 pm »
Since when has causality, cosmology, fine tuning, and the historical Jesus been debunked? Craig is quoting from current mainstream science, dude, you should really brush up if you think that his arguments have at some point been debunked in the past.
God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

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sequence46

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Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2012, 07:03:51 pm »

In the Krauss debate the fine tuning arguement is debunked. So that alone shows that Craigs re-uses debunked arguements, period but ill continue. YOUR WELCOME. Jesus has not been debunked been neither has mohamend. As for the cosmology arguement; "Something cant come come from nothing", I think we both seen in the krauss debate OVER AND OVER again that something can come from nothing. Although jesus MAY have lived, his story of travel and miracles has been debunked by being written off as mostly mythological regardless of whether or not he lived. I still find it funny that you think the scientific questions you ask cant be solved by scientist in said field. Any time Dr. Craig makes a claim about anything scientific be reminded he has no science knowledge of any kind.

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2012, 12:41:01 am »
Although jesus MAY have lived, his story of travel and miracles has been debunked by being written off as mostly mythological regardless of whether or not he lived.

Historians are pretty unanimous that Jesus lived and traveled around preaching, though certainly non-Christian historians will not admit that he did miracles.

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sequence46

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Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2012, 02:10:13 am »
yes this is true SOME historians do confirmed that he traveled but NONE have confirmed Jesus miracles. We also confirmed Mohammed existed!!!

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2012, 09:30:38 am »
sequence46 wrote: yes this is true SOME historians do confirmed that he traveled but NONE have confirmed Jesus miracles. We also confirmed Mohammed existed!!!

It is not some historians, it is more like all. If it is not 100 percent, it is 99%. I am not aware of a single historian in the US or Britian with a teaching job that says he didn't exist.

As for the miracles,  I don't see why one must have historical proof that Jesus did miracles.




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sequence46

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Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2012, 09:46:54 am »
I love how you can only reply to "whether or not Jesus existed" but not anything else I raised. Dont you know mohamed has been confimed to also exist too. Does this not pose a problem. They cant both be the only truth, the way, and the light.

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sequence46

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Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2012, 09:48:35 am »

Paul L. Maier, The Russell H. Seibert Professor of Ancient History, Western Michigan University

These are historians that dont belive jesus existed. Just goes to show that not %100 of historians are convinced.

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Lawlessone777

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Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2012, 10:37:33 am »
Dude you should really do some objectivestuffy into thesubject before declaring the battle won a long time ago. For one Krauss is being massively dishonest when he says the universe came fromtoting. He's present a Vacuum Fluctuation Model which presupposes the existence of space, time, energy, laws of physics, and the quantum vacuum, none of which are "nothing". His theory imposes that 4/5 of the univer pre-exists matter and work to create it.

Secondly if you honestly are going to hold to the Jesus myth theory then you obviously haven't bothered to even google this subject before hopping onto an apologetics board and mashing both caps lock and exclamation points. There's more than half a dozen non-Biblical ancient historians who speak about Jesus such as Pliny the Younger, Josephus, the Babylonian Talmud, Mara Bar Sarpion, and others. Anyone who claims Jesus never existed is either uneducated on the matter, or deliberately presenting misinformation.

Also try to avoid presenting the case that somehow these arguments were defeated in the past. They really haven't been defeated, and typically the only people I'm quoted as having done so are vitriolic YouTube atheists who don't have a real grasp on the subject. Thunderfoot, or Amazingatheist as examples.

If you've got questions there's a bunch of people who'd love to answer them here, but if you're going to pre-maturely declare victory off misinformation I'm going to have to suggest you study more into the subject.
God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

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sequence46

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Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2012, 03:37:20 pm »
Not only did you misrepresent my thoughts on Jesus but you misreprsent Krauss's "something from nothing theory". Also nice way to cherry pick what I said. Fact, Dr. Craig claims the universe is fine tune. Fact, the universe is not fine tune. Fact, Dr Craigs re-uses a debunked arguement. This is what my post was about. I wont waste my time slashing through you ignorant response for the sake of length because my point still stands. Dr. Craigs re-uses debunked arguements. Secondily, I am NOT holding to a jesus myth theory. What i kept trying to point out is that Jesus existented(according to some historians) but historians also say Mohammed existed so what does that mean?  That means absolutely nothing because their existence is not the problem its false claim of miracles (the same miracles people claim to do today). You also talked about objective research and this is where you show your true ignorance. There is no objective research of any kind for any truth of any religion ever. there is only fact and fiction and thats all. Something cant be both true and false (research is research). btw Dr. Craig has also suggest in two debtes that morals come from God and this is simply not true no matter how you spin it yet he continues to spread these lies.. praise be to allah lol.

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sequence46

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Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2012, 03:37:22 pm »
Not only did you misrepresent my thoughts on Jesus but you misreprsent Krauss's "something from nothing theory". Also nice way to cherry pick what I said. Fact, Dr. Craig claims the universe is fine tune. Fact, the universe is not fine tune. Fact, Dr Craigs re-uses a debunked arguement. This is what my post was about. I wont waste my time slashing through you ignorant response for the sake of length because my point still stands. Dr. Craigs re-uses debunked arguements. Secondily, I am NOT holding to a jesus myth theory. What i kept trying to point out is that Jesus existented(according to some historians) but historians also say Mohammed existed so what does that mean?  That means absolutely nothing because their existence is not the problem its false claim of miracles (the same miracles people claim to do today). You also talked about objective research and this is where you show your true ignorance. There is no objective research of any kind for any truth of any religion ever. there is only fact and fiction and thats all. Something cant be both true and false (research is research). btw Dr. Craig has also suggest in two debtes that morals come from God and this is simply not true no matter how you spin it yet he continues to spread these lies.. praise be to allah lol.

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Dr. Craig vs. Kari Enqvist: "Can the Universe Exist Without God?"
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2012, 11:38:37 am »
sequence46 wrote: I love how you can only reply to "whether or not Jesus existed" but not anything else I raised. Dont you know mohamed has been confimed to also exist too. Does this not pose a problem. They cant both be the only truth, the way, and the light.

I don't believe God intends us to believe he exists based on arguments, this is why I didn't respond to the other stuff. I don't agree with a lot of things Dr. Craig says such as his use of probability theory in the Krauss debate. As for the miracles, as I don't argue that Jesus is the son of God because his miracles can be historically proven. If you say that the miracle stories are plagiarized from other myths, I would ask you to provide evidence. I think you are speaking from a past generation of historical Jesus scholarship. Now people realize that the right way to see Jesus is through first century Judaism, and not greek mythology. I also was not arguing that Jesus existed therefore he is the son of God.