Tetelestai wrote: Havn't been here for a while but I am comfortable with what silentmatt has written so far. Like him, I think I can agree with that stated in his previous post. The point being that God can still communicate (omnipotent) but he (voluntarily) does not so as not to violate free will. That way all three attributes are still preserved.
So all three attributes are preserved as long as one of them is given up to avoid violating another one. I guess I can live with that too. A small contradiction is better than a big one, I suppose - like being a little bit pregnant, perhaps ...
WSCRguitarman wrote: You didn't answer my question. How can you prove free will without God? It's just an assumption. You can't just say "I have free will" for your argument to work you have to prove it is what it is
the thing about locking someone up is a moral argument dealing with God's sovereignty. Completely different topic that deals with the Bible's truth, not the existence of God.
Read the entirety of Romans in the Bible sometime. Its fairly short and deals with these sorts of things!
Duffduff wrote: God is defined as a personal being who knows everything.Personal beings have free will.In order to have free will, you must have more than one option, each of which is avoidable. This means that before you make a choice, there must be a state of uncertainty during a period of potential: you cannot know the future. Even if you think you can predict your decision, if you claim to have free will, you must admit the potential (if not the desire) to change your mind before the decision is final.A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty". It knows its choices in advance.A being that knows its choices in advance has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore lacks free will.Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.Therefore, a personal God does not exist.
Premise #3 seems a little incoherent to me...
3. If God knows in advance what choices He will make, God does not have free will.
Without creation, God could exist in a timeless state with no before or after. He would not need time to make a decision or have correct information before the decision or make decisions prior to having correct information. These type of statements only apply from within a space time continuum
It seems that the main issue you bring up is God’s inability to have a “state of uncertainty” and thus no “free will”. And it is for these reasons that God is not personal, according to your argument. At first glance, I’m tracking with you. However, with a quick look through the Bible, it would appear quite clear that God does in fact change his mind, thus exhibiting free will. Now, I am assuming that the Bible represents God well and doesn’t include false aspects of his character… if you and I don’t see eye-to-eye on that, then my argument is useless. But for now, let’s just say the Bible recounts truth about God. In the story of the ten commandments, God changes his mind. Moses pleads with God not to “bring disaster” on the people he has just saved from the hands of the Egyptians. Moses reminds God of the promises he made to Abraham and before we know it, God changes his mind. Verse 14 of chapter 32 reads, “And the Lord relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people”. There are a number of other stories like this one, but it just goes to show that apparently, God does in fact change his mind! Upon this, I assert that God has free will to execute plan A or plan B… in the case of the story, he had free will to bring disaster or not to bring disaster on his people. And what is especially interesting about this text is that Moses actually prompted the changing of God’s mind. It is clear that God does in fact have free will. Furthermore, God is a personal being, or at least we can keep the options available that he could be a personal being— because he does have free will. According to your argument, a personal God doesn’t exist. However, I believe that the story of Moses changing God’s mind does in fact point to God as having free will and being very much a personal being. Below is a simple argument that indicates God as having free will and also being personal, as indicated through the Exodus 32 story. 1. If God can change his mind, then he has free will. 2. God changed his mind (Ex. 32 v. 14), therefore he has free will. (MP 1)3. If God has free will, then he could be a personal God. 4. God has free will, thus, he is could be a personal God. (MP 3)