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Re: Everything that has a beginning....
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2012, 09:32:32 pm »
...Fair enough - let's see here.
I don't believe I struggled with the question, nor did I think it was rhetorical - the 'but if not God, what?' question is something that happens a lot, and I don't think it's a fair question.

I didnt say 'but if not God, what?' We were talking about the idea of an eternal universe/multiverse INSTEAD of God.
 
...Just because we can't answer something doesn't mean that we jump to the idea of a god.

Lets not jump to anything. I want to stick with the atheistic cosmology / atheology. Nobody is trying to smuggle God or Pascal into the discussion.


...Also, I apologize for referencing google so much....

Actually you were asking ME to reference Google. I'd rather hear from you.  :)
 
...When you said "it's fair to say," that's still an assertion, and I was simply replying to it. I wasn't attacking you for saying it was mandatory, I was simply responding to the assertion.

Well, I'd be glad to hear a simple response to the assertion. Do you think it is fair to say what I asserted?

...As far as your assertion of cause-effect, of course we have evidence of that. I can't deny that, it happens every day. However, it seems a leap to most atheists to say "I see cause and effect in my every day life. The universe must have been caused, therefore god." It's just not good enough evidence. Hell, it isn't really evidence at all.

Well I didnt do that did I? Strawman all gone now. bye bye.

I asserted that cause (agency) and effect (mechanism) are seen as real (evidence) events which take place. You say it's not evidence, but evidence comes in varying degrees of persuasiveness and explanatory power.
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Re: Everything that has a beginning....
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2012, 09:36:45 pm »
The onus here seems to be more heavily on the atheist to show that (or why) the universe/multiverse is unlikely to be the result of intentional cause (agency).
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Re: Everything that has a beginning....
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2012, 09:03:56 am »
Quote
Second, everything that has a beginning, has an end.

Why believe this? 

Because it's observable.  This is also why we believe in the law of cause and effect.  The CA heavily relies on what's observable, so if that argument stands because of that fact, than so does the notion that everything that has a beginning has an end.  Plain.  Simple.  Logical.

The idea that we will live infinitely after we die is simply not observable.  Not to mention unreasonable. 

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Re: Everything that has a beginning....
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2012, 04:42:21 pm »
Not everything HAS to have a beginning so there goes your idea that everything which comes into (what we call) existence necessarily therefore HAS to have an end as well.

The KCA doesnt argue the necessity of coming into existence. Neither does it contend against eternal uncaused things. It argues to the NATURE of how caused things come to exist.

Thought experiment : An eternal thing exists. That eternal thing divides itself into two separate things. Can both those things continue to be eternal and share the same nature?
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Re: Everything that has a beginning....
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2012, 06:50:56 pm »
Not everything HAS to have a beginning so there goes your idea that everything which comes into (what we call) existence necessarily therefore HAS to have an end as well.

Whether or not it HAS to have a beginning is irrelevant. The fact remains.

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Re: Everything that has a beginning....
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2012, 07:04:27 pm »
Not everything HAS to have a beginning so there goes your idea that everything which comes into (what we call) existence necessarily therefore HAS to have an end as well.

Whether or not it HAS to have a beginning is irrelevant. The fact remains.

Irrelevant?

Hang on pal. LOOK UP and read.

It's in the topic of your OP.

Yeah, the fact remains!

The fact that things dont HAVE to have a beginning or and end.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 07:07:03 pm by Lion IRC »
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Re: Everything that has a beginning....
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2012, 08:09:41 pm »
Seriously?  Alright,  let's start over. Everything that has a beginning has an end.  People begin to exist, they cease to exist.  It's observable.  Whether or not they MUST have a beginning is irrelevant. The simple fact is that they DO have a beginning. And there is no thing which does not have a beginning, therefore everthing that we observe does have a beginning...it also has an end.  To say otherwise is to say that if I drop this phone, there's a chance it will float up. Did I clear things up?

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Re: Everything that has a beginning....
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2012, 08:55:37 pm »
You are special pleading the assertion that everything which has a beginning MUST have an end.
Why? Says who? Are you arguing that the universe will cease to exist?
What about the ''stuff'' into which the universe is expanding?
Is that an uncaused something or an uncaused nothing?

You assert... there is no thing which does not have a beginning,
...therefore everything that we observe does have a beginning


Thats in stark contrast to the notion which science was banging into our heads that matter cannot be created or destroyed. And I want to know how you can be an expert on stuff you werent there to observe - the beginning of the universe. At least Moses admitted that he wasnt there either.


By the way.........
God being timeless sans creation. Interesting hypothesis but lacking any evidence whatsoever.  And isn't that one of Craig's biggest qualms with the infinite number of universes randomly possessing values and properties for permitting life?...

Qualms?
No. Not in anything I've read or heard by him.
On the contrary, he (rightly) infers, if I recall correctly, that such an actual scenario would counter atheology.
 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 08:59:23 pm by Lion IRC »
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Re: Everything that has a beginning....
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2012, 09:49:33 pm »
Now you're making a strawman argument. While I believe the universe did have a beginning, I don't know this to be fact. And we can't prove it to be eternal either.  However,  cosmologists do point to some kind of an end. But that's not what I talked about. YOU had a beginning and you will also have an end.  As will I and everyone else on the planet. My cat had a beginning and will also have an end. There exists no observable non ending.  Everything we see come into existence also ceases to exist at some point. Show me something that begins to exist that never ceases to exist.

And if you re-watch the Craig/Hitchens debate, you'll see that one of Craigs objections to the infinite multiverse idea is that we can't observe it. There's no evidence for it.

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Re: Everything that has a beginning....
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2012, 10:30:51 pm »
Now you're making a strawman argument. While I believe the universe did have a beginning, I don't know this to be fact.

No. It's not a strawman. You said, quote: ''The fact remains.''
You made assertions claiming they were supported by empirical method, quote : ''Because it's observable.''
You are the one making universal truth statements about, quote : everything that..

...And if you re-watch the Craig/Hitchens debate, you'll see that one of Craigs objections to the infinite multiverse idea is that we can't observe it. There's no evidence for it.

The non-theistic multiverse idea, (as against a fine-tuned universe,) has many problems - problems for atheists to answer. I dont have enough faith to cope with such an extravagant metaphysical architecture as THAT.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 10:34:14 pm by Lion IRC »
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Re: Everything that has a beginning....
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2012, 10:44:28 pm »
You are constantly taking everything out of context and arguing with an idea you've made up. It just makes you look incompetent.