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Would a materialistic miracle be a proof that God does not exist?

yes
1 (100%)
no
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 1

Voting closed: January 02, 2014, 12:45:58 am

jbejon

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Re: wine into water
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2013, 05:04:03 am »
The future perfect of the wording from the master of ceremony to my understanding is: "the water that had been born to become wine"

I don't think this is right.  The relevant phrase is τὸ ὕδωρ οἶνον γεγενημένον.  But γεγενημένον is simply (as far as I can tell) a passive perfect participle.  For it to be a future perfect (in the NT), you'd need an εἰμί in there somewhere, which you don't have.  I think it's best just to stick to what the Scriptures actually say, which is that the water had become wine.

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4teatwo

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Re: wine into water
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2013, 10:53:50 am »


Living water in John represents the Holy Spirit
Wine represents Christ's blood.

So taking the changing water into wine as symbolic just doesn't make sense in the text.

John's gospel is highly theological and if there is anything symbolically meaningful in an event that John describes, he points it out. Here John hardly adds any commentary or do we hear a lengthy explanation from Jesus.

I have no problem with seeing a deeper meaning in a recorded event, but when someone uses this to be able to deny the miracle, then I think there is a deeper issue. I.e. disbeliefe in miracles. And I sense that this is really where you are coming from or am I wrong?
Indeed, as if it needs a miracle for you to believe in God, your believe is build on sand :-)
I also consider John's gospel to be deeply philosophical and most beautiful and poetic use of language. Miracles are observations that escape our rational understanding, so they are puzzles to be solved. What do you lose if someone explains to you the recorded observation in a way that is coherent with the truth you would want God to represent? Would a simple explanation make God loose power? Do you believe in a God that can bend the rules of reality at will in order to justify his ultimate power?
Explaining miracles may cut the power of those who promise access to miracle for profit or who want you to believe in an exclusive God, but that is a different story. A reality based God has no need to be ashamed of reality that he would need to bend it in any way. If someone beliefs omnipotence means to have the ability to bend the laws of logic God is meant to have given to the universe, than it would mean that a person that does not follow his/her own rules or who has one set of rules for himself and another one for others is an omnipotent character. It tends to be an accepted view with some people but I would challenge the coherence of that thinking. It even falls short of the rather primitive “golden rule” which is really only golden to those who attribute to much value to gold.

The question is why one has to see a miracle in something that does not require a miracle. To turn water into wine is something that gives a lot of people work and makes some people quite rich as it is a perfect natural process, albeit taking time and effort. A magician you can also do this on stage, but if you want to impress me with regards to problem solving if someone runs out of wine on a party, particularly by someone who wants to promote the understanding of God, to magic water into wine is anything but impressive. And what are you going to do with such a "miracle". Do you want to brag about your ability to be able to bend reality because it is a special power from God, a power that would allow you to pretend / disguise the truth that there was no more wine? Do you think the disciples would have been so shallow as to love him for his ability to change the truth or to make people love the truth? Don’t you see that the latter would make the son of God far more powerful?
Try to think honestly what property Jesus would lose if he would not perform miracles and what is says about the image of God you believe or the abilities you admire in God.

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4teatwo

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Re: wine into water
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2013, 03:53:39 am »
looks like I cracked  or I have cracked it

when starting to come here more than a year ago contemplating skull base surgery I had originally posted on in the wrong forum on questions raised from WLC debates. Having watched a youtube video why God does not heal amputees I wanted to hear the comments of hopefully some rational thinkers or resonables on the subject of miracles, being convinced that the miracle at the wedding in Canaan is the best example for a non-miracle and a triumph of logic over materialistic desires.

A year later I now understand the conflict between atheist and theists to come from the inability of the atheists to perceive a spriritual God due to their materialistc worldview. It is quite easy for atheist materialists to show off the hypocrisy of materialistic Christians as logcally Christianity and Materialism can not be reconciled. After all it is the fall or the sin of man when eating the apple from the tree of realization e.g. the realisation of the material "self" that makes him mortal and only to die with Jesus on the Cross that allows him to gain the everlasting life. This is why the concept of death is lost on small children, but instead of reading them the scriptures and teach them to be living humans we train them with advertising to become consumers.
We should rewrite Genesis to make it clearer for todays generation and show how after the fall the humans develop a taste for the I-pad and the I-phone. Perhaps then they might get it as in the absence of understanding poetic language most people do not recognise the fall to be a beautifull narrative of puberty
 
I wish all of you on this list that when Jesu passes you next time that you might experience the miracle of the blind man that suddenly learnt to see. May you all who have yet trouble seeing get a very special set of glasses as a present for this years Christmas
Peace be with you all
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 04:42:58 am by 4teatwo »