Mimi

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Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« on: January 25, 2013, 01:41:41 pm »
Dr. William Lane Craig's video doesn't allow comments:

Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus (William Lane Craig)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6AZqOO2FJA

Here are some responses I'd like to see addressed:

Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes addressing the Horus/Jesus issue

Dr. W.L. Craig Debunked: Jesus, Osiris and Horus

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r.s.martin

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Re: Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2013, 12:16:52 pm »
I watched both videos. Neither Dr. Forbes nor WLC cite ancient sources to support their arguments. For more information, Craig refers readers to material he personally edited, but he does not list ancient sources to help people find the answers for themselves. I like that your links provide citations from original sources.

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John M

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Re: Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 03:03:27 pm »
Someone needs to explain to me why a series of Jewish authors (those of most of the New Testament gospels and letters) would rely on pagan mythology to build up a fake portrait of a fake Jewish deity known as Jesus of Nazereth? They themselves were Jewish and, starting out in Jerusalem and the surrounding areas, were trying to convert Jewish people living there to believe their new myth. Why would they choose to borrow Egyptian mythology to build a portrait of a fake Jesus, to try to spread a religion among their Jewish brethern - who certainly would have found it hard to believe since it was an anathema to their Jewish religion and culture? To me, it doesn't make sense on the face of it. It would have been easier to make up lies and myths that were more believable and acceptable to the Jews if they didn't import Egyptian and pagan mythological symbols and themes.

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r.s.martin

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Re: Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 06:21:54 pm »
Someone needs to explain to me why a series of Jewish authors (those of most of the New Testament gospels and letters) would rely on pagan mythology to build up a fake portrait of a fake Jewish deity known as Jesus of Nazereth? They themselves were Jewish and, starting out in Jerusalem and the surrounding areas, were trying to convert Jewish people living there to believe their new myth. Why would they choose to borrow Egyptian mythology to build a portrait of a fake Jesus, to try to spread a religion among their Jewish brethern - who certainly would have found it hard to believe since it was an anathema to their Jewish religion and culture? To me, it doesn't make sense on the face of it. It would have been easier to make up lies and myths that were more believable and acceptable to the Jews if they didn't import Egyptian and pagan mythological symbols and themes.

I don't believe it happened that way, i.e. bolded parts above. If we take the Christian Bible as it exists today, it appears like the "myths" were hundreds of years in developing. If you really want to understand how it might have happened, you might wish to read up on the links posted in the OP and also study the Mystery Religions. Like Craig suggests, reading original documents (in English translation if you can't read the original languages) is helpful. You will have to dig deeper than "the face of it."

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Asking_A_Question

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Re: Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2013, 08:06:24 pm »
If we take the Christian Bible as it exists today, it appears like the "myths" were hundreds of years in developing.

What?

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veka

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Re: Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2013, 05:07:34 am »
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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r.s.martin

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Re: Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2013, 12:58:53 pm »

Here are some responses I'd like to see addressed:

Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes addressing the Horus/Jesus issue


Forbes says the idea of comparing Jesus to sun gods began in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Just now I found citations from Tertullian (c. 160–c. 225 AD) that prove Christianity was seen as a sun-worshiping cult more than sixteen centuries earlier, in the time of the Early Christians. Had Christianity not been seen thus, Tertullian would not have written as follows:

FROM Book 1, chapter 13 of Ad Nationes "The Charge of Worshipping the Sun Met by a Retort" http://www.tertullian.org/anf/anf03/anf03-15.htm#P1457_561810
Quote
Others...suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity.

FROM Ch. 16 of Tertullian's Apology http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0301.htm

Quote
Others, again, certainly with more information and greater verisimilitude, believe that the sun is our god. We shall be counted Persians perhaps, though we do not worship the orb of day painted on a piece of linen cloth, having himself everywhere in his own disk. The idea no doubt has originated from our being known to turn to the east in prayer.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 01:04:27 pm by r.s.martin »

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Pieter

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Re: Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2013, 09:11:48 am »
So I read up on Horus and Isis and Osirus, what the heck I read it on Wikipedia.

Exactly what are the comparisons between that and Jesus??

The only link you seem to be able to make is Tertulian. Whatever he meant by what he wrote, it's hardly evidenvce that ALL early Christianity saw Jesus as a Sun-god. As Mazzgolf said, why the heck would a Jewish community wheel out old Egyptian mythology while they were all highly anti-pagan. Religious leaders would cerimonially bath themselves after coming from the market place because they felt contaminated by gentile people they had dealt with.
Pieter van Leeuwen

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Dionysius

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Re: Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2013, 11:13:43 am »
So I read up on Horus and Isis and Osirus, what the heck I read it on Wikipedia.

Exactly what are the comparisons between that and Jesus??

The only link you seem to be able to make is Tertulian. Whatever he meant by what he wrote, it's hardly evidenvce that ALL early Christianity saw Jesus as a Sun-god. As Mazzgolf said, why the heck would a Jewish community wheel out old Egyptian mythology while they were all highly anti-pagan. Religious leaders would cerimonially bath themselves after coming from the market place because they felt contaminated by gentile people they had dealt with.

Possibly because  Egyptian Theology is a highly advanced and sophisticated spiritual philosophy uncharacteristic of the intellectual primity of mankind during that age. Their social conventions, architectural skill and the general breadth of knowledge of worldly phenomenal information was abnormal by historical standards.

Additionally, their theology which precedes Judeo/Christianity involves a creator god, a savior god and a spirit god and multitude of lesser gods, including a devil and cohorts which in similar symbolic imagery are defeated in the same way portrayed in Judeo/Christianity. They are congruent in the afterlife and the belief in Heaven and Hell as well as the importance of high moral standards, such as demonstrated by the law and the teachings of Christ.

If that weren't enough evidence of influence, it is arguable that the very roots of western philosophy originated in Egypt.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 11:15:59 am by Dionysius »
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Pieter

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Re: Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2013, 11:14:19 am »

Here are some responses I'd like to see addressed:

Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes addressing the Horus/Jesus issue


Forbes says the idea of comparing Jesus to sun gods began in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Just now I found citations from Tertullian (c. 160–c. 225 AD) that prove Christianity was seen as a sun-worshiping cult more than sixteen centuries earlier, in the time of the Early Christians. Had Christianity not been seen thus, Tertullian would not have written as follows:

FROM Book 1, chapter 13 of Ad Nationes "The Charge of Worshipping the Sun Met by a Retort" http://www.tertullian.org/anf/anf03/anf03-15.htm#P1457_561810
Quote
Others...suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity.

FROM Ch. 16 of Tertullian's Apology http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0301.htm

Quote
Others, again, certainly with more information and greater verisimilitude, believe that the sun is our god. We shall be counted Persians perhaps, though we do not worship the orb of day painted on a piece of linen cloth, having himself everywhere in his own disk. The idea no doubt has originated from our being known to turn to the east in prayer.

Just reading through these passages in Tertullian. You just got it completely wrong.

Tertulian is saying that the Christians have been accused of worshipping the sun-god simply because they pray to the east. He then goes on to say that his accusers also do things similar to the practices of the sun-god worshippers and these are presumably ok. If if these activities do not make you a sun-god worshipper, neither does praying to the east. Or perhaps he meant that if it is ok for his accusers to do all these practices that are similar to the practices by the sun-god cult, then surely it is ok if Christians pray to the east. If I am correct Tertullian was in Alexandria, so Jerusalem happened to be in the east.

Tertulian had great contempt agains pagan practices and idol worship. Read the intro to Tertulian from the same site that you refer to: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/info/tertullian.html
Pieter van Leeuwen

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Pieter

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Re: Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2013, 11:16:07 am »
So I read up on Horus and Isis and Osirus, what the heck I read it on Wikipedia.

Exactly what are the comparisons between that and Jesus??

The only link you seem to be able to make is Tertulian. Whatever he meant by what he wrote, it's hardly evidenvce that ALL early Christianity saw Jesus as a Sun-god. As Mazzgolf said, why the heck would a Jewish community wheel out old Egyptian mythology while they were all highly anti-pagan. Religious leaders would cerimonially bath themselves after coming from the market place because they felt contaminated by gentile people they had dealt with.

Possibly because  Egyptian Theology is a highly advanced and sophisticated spiritual philosophy uncharacteristic of the intellectual primity of mankind during that age. Their social conventions, architectural skill and the general breadth of knowledge of worldly phenomenal information was abnormal by historical standards.

Additionally, their theology which precedes Judeo/Christianity involves a creator god, a savior god and a spirit god and multitude of lesser gods, including a devil and cohorts which in similar symbolic imagery are defeated in the same way portrayed in Judeo/Christianity. They are congruent in the afterlife and the belief in Heaven and Hell as well as the importance of high moral standards, such as demonstrated by the law and the teachings of Christ.

If that weren't enough evidence of influence, it is arguable the roots of western philosophy originated in Egypt form the theosophy of the Egyptians as well.

Only if you use Christian language to describe Egyptian mythology does it look striking.
Pieter van Leeuwen

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Dionysius

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Re: Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2013, 11:22:38 am »
So I read up on Horus and Isis and Osirus, what the heck I read it on Wikipedia.

Exactly what are the comparisons between that and Jesus??

The only link you seem to be able to make is Tertulian. Whatever he meant by what he wrote, it's hardly evidenvce that ALL early Christianity saw Jesus as a Sun-god. As Mazzgolf said, why the heck would a Jewish community wheel out old Egyptian mythology while they were all highly anti-pagan. Religious leaders would cerimonially bath themselves after coming from the market place because they felt contaminated by gentile people they had dealt with.

Possibly because  Egyptian Theology is a highly advanced and sophisticated spiritual philosophy uncharacteristic of the intellectual primity of mankind during that age. Their social conventions, architectural skill and the general breadth of knowledge of worldly phenomenal information was abnormal by historical standards.

Additionally, their theology which precedes Judeo/Christianity involves a creator god, a savior god and a spirit god and multitude of lesser gods, including a devil and cohorts which in similar symbolic imagery are defeated in the same way portrayed in Judeo/Christianity. They are congruent in the afterlife and the belief in Heaven and Hell as well as the importance of high moral standards, such as demonstrated by the law and the teachings of Christ.

If that weren't enough evidence of influence, it is arguable the roots of western philosophy originated in Egypt form the theosophy of the Egyptians as well.

Only if you use Christian language to describe Egyptian mythology does it look striking.


I think there may be a misconception the language as well, take a look at this document and you will find that it was the Jews who used Egyptian inflection in their writings. Or it may be that the idiosyncratic style of writing and symbolic expression was something that was common to people of that era; age.

Read this and you may be enabled to see the same style of writing used by the ancient Hebrews.


http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/ipuwer.htm
This world is blind. Only a few can see here.
Like birds escaped from a snare a few go to heaven.
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Dionysius

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Re: Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2013, 11:58:59 am »
Pieter,


Look at this from the document:


He brings coolness upon heat; men say: "He is the herdsman of mankind, and there is no evil in his heart." Though his herds are few, yet he spends a day to collect them, their hearts being on fire.


If this is not a very clear indication of the spirit of Christ (YHWH) indwelling a man so that they might be enabled to save (shepard) mankind from sin (heat; fire) I'm not sure what else could be. :)

God is so much bigger than we'd like to think.
This world is blind. Only a few can see here.
Like birds escaped from a snare a few go to heaven.
-Dhammapada

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Pieter

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Re: Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2013, 05:39:14 am »
Pieter,


Look at this from the document:


He brings coolness upon heat; men say: "He is the herdsman of mankind, and there is no evil in his heart." Though his herds are few, yet he spends a day to collect them, their hearts being on fire.


If this is not a very clear indication of the spirit of Christ (YHWH) indwelling a man so that they might be enabled to save (shepard) mankind from sin (heat; fire) I'm not sure what else could be. :)

God is so much bigger than we'd like to think.

I just read throught it a bit and the similarities lies more with Exodus as this describes what life was like which was in a way similar to the Isrealites. So they talk about deserts and farming. Sure that is what life was like at the time. 

About that shepherd passage, you can find comparison in just about any ancient literature if you look for it.

But I am not against the idea that God revealed something outside the bible.  Even the bible mentioned Melchizedek who was a priest of Yahweh but lived among pagans. But this is just too vague IMO. Compare this with Psalm 22.

Still this text is not even about mythical stories of Horrus or or Isis.
Pieter van Leeuwen

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Dionysius

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Re: Jesus and the Story of Osiris and Horus
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2013, 01:57:53 pm »
Pieter,


Look at this from the document:


He brings coolness upon heat; men say: "He is the herdsman of mankind, and there is no evil in his heart." Though his herds are few, yet he spends a day to collect them, their hearts being on fire.


If this is not a very clear indication of the spirit of Christ (YHWH) indwelling a man so that they might be enabled to save (shepard) mankind from sin (heat; fire) I'm not sure what else could be. :)

God is so much bigger than we'd like to think.

I just read throught it a bit and the similarities lies more with Exodus as this describes what life was like which was in a way similar to the Isrealites. So they talk about deserts and farming. Sure that is what life was like at the time. 

About that shepherd passage, you can find comparison in just about any ancient literature if you look for it.

But I am not against the idea that God revealed something outside the bible.  Even the bible mentioned Melchizedek who was a priest of Yahweh but lived among pagans. But this is just too vague IMO. Compare this with Psalm 22.

Still this text is not even about mythical stories of Horrus or or Isis.


My reasoning has more to do with theological, philosophical similarity and the notion of a world savior or vicar of humanity being a pre-judeo/christian concept. Which doesn't invalidate the religion but merely asserts that mankind was in need of a savior before such a notion was developed by Judeo/Christianity.

We can note from the quoted statement,

"He is the herdsman of mankind, and there is no evil in his heart."


That if this were proven to be a reference to the Christ or Messiah that it would be in accord with later Judeo/Christian references, such as, the good shepherd (herdsman) and being sinless (no evil in his heart).
This world is blind. Only a few can see here.
Like birds escaped from a snare a few go to heaven.
-Dhammapada