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Asking_A_Question

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Re: The Cup Of Suffering
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2013, 02:56:27 pm »
Quick! Go write your paper refuting them!

This is an argumentum ad populum

Actually it would be an argument from authority. However, I'm just saying that you should inform scholars.

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Prodigal Son

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Re: The Cup Of Wrath
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2013, 02:58:00 pm »
"Your conclusion about penal substitution is not justified"

It is justified because Christ told them that they would drink from the exact same cup. They would suffer too as God disciplines those He loves. If you know what this cup is then please tell me.

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Prodigal Son

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Re: The Cup Of Wrath
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2013, 04:55:27 pm »
"If so, how could Christ's suffering reform James and John?"

It's the love and compassion of Christ that reforms us.  When our faith is in Christ He gives our dead spirit life. We who have faith in Christ are in spiritual union with Him.  We are being transformed from glory to glory.

Christ was telling James and John that they would suffer.  Hebrews tells us that God disciplines those He loves.

I can't make much sense of this view then.  The cup was God's corrective wrath, which didn't really reform James and John (Christ's love and compassion did that, together with their faith), since James and John had to drink from the same corrective cup anyway...


We are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. In Christ's sufferings He was showing His love and compassion. We are given new birth when we come into a love union with Christ. God does discipline those He loves like it tells us in Hebrews. His correction falls on us. We are not perfect yet. We are reformed because of the work of Christ. It has to work itself out though. Already/not yet.

Jesus came to reveal God's heart of love and compassion to the broken and rejected. He would gain victory over sin, death, and Satan. We are united to Christ in His death and resurrection as we die to the old self and put on the new self on a daily basis. We let God's love come into our lives as we enter into a personal relationship with Him. The cross declares that our own self-hatred and the whole cycle of being hurt and hurting others is broken, freeing us from the bondages of sin and death. At the cross Christ suffers with those who suffer revealing the compassionate love of God.

The entire life of Christ was a sacrifice as He took on the life of a servant. Likewise we are called to bring our lives as a living sacrifice by living a life of selfless other directed love. We are united to Christ as He takes on our sin and suffers with us and for us becoming a curse as He dies and is raised again defeating sin and death.

 It makes no sense to say that the cup James and John would drink from was God's penal wrath. God would be punishing them for their sins after He already punished them on Christ which is a double punishment for their sins. It's unjust. Therefore, the cup that Christ drank from wasn't the cup of God's penal wrath.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 04:58:46 pm by Prodigal Son »

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Prodigal Son

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Re: The Cup Of Wrath
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2013, 10:34:39 pm »
Another piece of evidence that the wrath Christ suffered was disciplinary and not penal comes from the book of Hebrews:

Hebrews 5:8-9

 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him


The purpose of discipline is to bring about obedience and make holy:

Hebrews 12:4-11

4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.  5 And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,  6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he scourges everyone he accepts as a son."  7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?  8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.  9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!  10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.  11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.


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Asking_A_Question

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Re: The Cup Of Wrath
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2013, 10:37:31 pm »
So are you going to publish your paper/book or not?

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Dionysius

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Re: The Cup Of Wrath
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2013, 12:08:15 am »
He is publishing in manner of speaking... On the impressionable stratum of the mind  where it will do the most good.




This world is blind. Only a few can see here.
Like birds escaped from a snare a few go to heaven.
-Dhammapada

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Jem

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Re: The Cup Of Suffering
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2013, 05:46:43 am »

Many people that hold on to Penal Substitution believe that Jesus suffered the pains of hell after His physical death.

Can you supply a scripture to back up this assertion GtG? I have never seen anything in the Bible to suggest this.  ???

Jesus was "in the heart of the earth" just as Jonah was "in the belly of the fish" for parts of three days and nights. (Matt 12:38-40) He was not resurrected (raised from the dead) till the third day. He was physically dead and confined for all the time he was in the tomb. He did not return to his Father for 40 days.

Quote
When reciting the Apostle's Creed, I often realize that at the "He descended into hell" part, I still have many questions.

What "hell" did Jesus descend into? Sheol? Hades? Gehenna? What did the writer of the Apostle's Creed mean when he said that Jesus went to 'hell'?

Hell (sheol, hades) is the common grave. Everyone goes to this 'hell'. There is no conscious existence there. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
Jesus went into a tomb (grave, hell) for three days. His 'descending into hell' means nothing more than that as far as I can see.

The Apostle Peter wrote...
"Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God,
by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit.
In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison, after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water."
(1 Pet 3:18-20)

These "spirits in prison" were the disobedient angels that caused havoc in Noah's day, causing God to take drastic action. Once these wicked spirits were forced back to the spirit realm and their monstrous children were destroyed in the flood waters, God sentenced them to a spiritually dark prison-like confinement called Tartarus. (sometimes misleadingly translated as "hell") This term is used only once in scripture. This is not a place for human souls to go. It was a condition of spiritual darkness rather than an actual place of confinement.

"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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Prodigal Son

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Re: The Cup Of Wrath
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2013, 12:54:57 pm »
 The wrath that Christ endured to save us from hell is corrective. He took our place so we don't have to go to lasting correction as long as we trust in Him. But doesn't the suffering seem too severe that Christ endured? I think not. Keep in mind that Christ was carrying the sins of the whole world. That's a lot of sin! We should expect the suffering to be severe. Especially since it was only for a few hours.

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Jem

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Re: The Cup Of Wrath
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2013, 04:38:02 pm »
The wrath that Christ endured to save us from hell is corrective. He took our place so we don't have to go to lasting correction as long as we trust in Him.

Can I ask what "correction" can take place in an everlasting punishment? If "hell" (as a conscious everlasting separation from God) is corrective, when does the correction take place? When did any punishment prescribed in the laws of God, not have a correction in mind leading the offender to repentance? How does Christendom's "hell" accomplish that if they can never repent and be forgiven?

Quote
But doesn't the suffering seem too severe that Christ endured? I think not. Keep in mind that Christ was carrying the sins of the whole world. That's a lot of sin! We should expect the suffering to be severe. Especially since it was only for a few hours.

Christ was the exact equivalent of Adam. He had to be to offer his perfect life in exchange for the perfect life that Adam threw away. He is called "the last Adam" for that reason. (1Cor 15:22, 45)

The devil knew that a redeemer (a seed) would be sent to rescue Adam's children. (Gen. 3:15) He was going to deliver a painful but not fatal "heel" wound to that seed before he himself was to receive a fatal blow to the "head".

Jesus was tempted by the devil, just as Adam and his wife were tempted. He accomplished what Adam and Eve didn't....perfect obedience to his Heavenly Father. Adam disobeyed in response to selfish considerations, fully aware of the consequences of his actions. His wife was deceived, but Adam wasn't. (1 Tim 2:14)

Jesus was loyal and unselfish in even the most adverse circumstances.
This is a lesson in the proper exercise of free will. Jesus as a human had the same free will as Adam did...just as we do. This freedom of choice was meant to be a gift to enhance our lives, but when it is abused and its exercise interferes with the free will of others, it becomes a curse. The world today is a living example of what happens when we live selfishly, rejecting the laws of the one who gave us the gift of life.

In the "new earth" only those who "do the will of God" will get to enjoy that gift. (2Pet 3:13; Matt 7:21-23)

Christ's sacrifice guarantees it.  :)

« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 06:56:20 pm by Jem »
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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GotTheGift

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Re: The Cup Of Suffering
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2013, 09:14:33 pm »

Many people that hold on to Penal Substitution believe that Jesus suffered the pains of hell after His physical death.

Can you supply a scripture to back up this assertion GtG? I have never seen anything in the Bible to suggest this.  ???

Jesus was "in the heart of the earth" just as Jonah was "in the belly of the fish" for parts of three days and nights. (Matt 12:38-40) He was not resurrected (raised from the dead) till the third day. He was physically dead and confined for all the time he was in the tomb. He did not return to his Father for 40 days.

Quote
When reciting the Apostle's Creed, I often realize that at the "He descended into hell" part, I still have many questions.

What "hell" did Jesus descend into? Sheol? Hades? Gehenna? What did the writer of the Apostle's Creed mean when he said that Jesus went to 'hell'?

Hell (sheol, hades) is the common grave. Everyone goes to this 'hell'. There is no conscious existence there. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
Jesus went into a tomb (grave, hell) for three days. His 'descending into hell' means nothing more than that as far as I can see.

The Apostle Peter wrote...
"Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God,
by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit.
In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison, after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water."
(1 Pet 3:18-20)

These "spirits in prison" were the disobedient angels that caused havoc in Noah's day, causing God to take drastic action. Once these wicked spirits were forced back to the spirit realm and their monstrous children were destroyed in the flood waters, God sentenced them to a spiritually dark prison-like confinement called Tartarus. (sometimes misleadingly translated as "hell") This term is used only once in scripture. This is not a place for human souls to go. It was a condition of spiritual darkness rather than an actual place of confinement.

There is no scripture to back up the PS assertion.

This is what the Catechism says about Jesus' descent to hell.

"HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN"

CCC 631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens." The Apostles' Creed confesses in the same article Christ's descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:

Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell

CCC 632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection. This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.

CCC 633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

CCC 634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead." The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

CCC 635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."

I am still prayerfully trying to understand this.
I post on the fly, so excuse any typos or grammatical errors.

"If the mass was just a meal, then the crucifixion was just an execution." -Scott Hahn

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God Is Good

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Re: The Cup Of Wrath
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2013, 10:16:46 pm »
I think Jesus was referring to two different cups, and uses cups to describe his situations.

The cup of his crucifixion and the cup of his salvation.

He also told the woman of the well, if she drank of his water she would never thirst again.

You cant read too far into his method of teaching, he is being blunt, but uses parables to explain himself.

My fav example is "faith of a mustard seed"
obviously mustard seeds have no faith, they are seeds and cant think.

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Jason Brophy

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Re: The Cup Of Wrath
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2013, 10:31:57 pm »
This is Calvin’s commentary on the Matthew 20:23:

“23. You shall indeed drink my cup. As they were disciples, it was proper that they should be assimilated to their Master. Christ warns them of what will take place, that they may be prepared to endure it with patience; and, in the persons of two men, he addresses all his followers. For though many believers die a natural death, and without violence or shedding of blood, yet it is common to all of them, as Paul informs us, (#Ro 8:29; 2Co 3:18), to be conformed to the image of Christ; and, therefore,

during their whole life, they are sheep appointed to the slaughter, (#Ro 8:36).”

My understanding is that by “cup” Christ simply meant they would have persecution in this life for their proclamation of the Gospel, as He did, possibly even dying by crucifixion for their faith. However, this does not in any way mean God punished the sins of humanity on them, that is something Christ bore alone. I think your suggestion tries to get too much mileage out of Christ’s use of the word “cup,” Jesus didn’t say, “every single thing that happens to me is going to happen to you, in exactly the same way, with no exceptions.” Remember that Christ often spoke figuratively. When we take Matthew 20:23 in the context of Scripture as a whole, it is clear that whatever “cup” they drank from, it was not the same as Christ’s cup in regard to sacrificial atonement for humanity’s  sins.

In brief, Christ is not saying that His cup and theirs are exactly identical in every way.

Interesting topic though, thanks for sharing your ideas with us. :)
1 Corinthians 1:17-31

1 Corinthians 1:20  Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

Romans 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

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Prodigal Son

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Re: The Cup Of Wrath
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2013, 10:30:23 am »
Quote
My understanding is that by “cup” Christ simply meant they would have persecution in this life for their proclamation of the Gospel,

It's both. The cup Christ drank from contained both penal and disciplinary wrath. He learned obedience from what He suffered. He drank up all the penal wrath though. The wrath that James and Jon drank from the cup was His disciplinary wrath.

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Jason Brophy

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Re: The Cup Of Wrath
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2013, 02:07:04 pm »
Interesting point of view. Regarding “disciplinary wrath,” I would say that is something God deals with on an individual basis with believers, as Hebrews 12:5-7 states:

5  And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6  For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."
7  If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?

Taking these verses into consideration, and especially considering the fact that it was Christ alone who was punished for humanity’s sins, I see the “cup” Zebedee’s sons drank from as nothing more than persecution for proclaiming the Gospel, which Christ also faced.

I think it is a mistake to try to put “disciplinary wrath” into Christ’s cup, because as we have seen above Christ did not take the discipline for sins away from us, that is something we each must bear ourselves.

You presented your “disciplinary wrath” idea by saying:

“Christ took our place so that we wouldn't have to undergo the corrective wrath in hell. We know it is corrective because of Isaiah 53:5 -

The chastening for our well being fell upon Him.

The Hebrew word here is musar

musar:

discipline, chastening, correction

The NASB Strongest Exhaustive Concordance”

But you are making a mistake when interpreting the meaning of the word “chastening”  in Isaiah 53:5. In that passage, the word is being used to mean punishment. The verse is saying Christ was punished in our place for our sins, not that he was punished and also “correctively disciplined” for our sins. God correctively disciplines each of us Himself, per Hebrews 12:5-7.
1 Corinthians 1:17-31

1 Corinthians 1:20  Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

Romans 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

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Prodigal Son

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Re: The Cup Of Wrath
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2013, 03:58:18 pm »
The Bible speaks at times where Jesus didn't know certain things. He had to learn and grow. I believe this is because He had a finite human soul. Yes He was also Divine and therefore, had a Divine soul as well. This is what He committed into the hands of the Father at His death. His human soul was destroyed as He received the penalty for our sins - death. The cup of God's wrath that He would drink from contained both the penal wrath of God and the disciplinary wrath of God. For Christ learned obedience through what He suffered (Hebrews 5:8-9). He swallowed up all the penal wrath of God for everybody. He told James and John that they would drink from His cup. This is the cup we all drink from - disciplinary wrath - until we receive our full salvation. The penal wrath of God has been swallowed up. Death (the penalty for sin) is no more.

The Hebrew word in Isaiah doesn't carry the meaning of penalty. Only chastening or discipline (correction). This fits with the Hebrews passage above.

Christ does take our disciplines away in our final salvation. We are saved but it has to work itself out.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 04:00:41 pm by Prodigal Son »