My confusion is with the notion that the body is the soul. As you suggest people have different understandings of what that entails, I, mine and you, yours.
JW's believe that the soul is the body and you have clarifies that it is more than just the body as you allude to mind and personality and whatnot. My position is that through your clarification you have just delineated what a soul is, as it is now mind, personality and body. What I am suggesting is that by the differentiation of the operative components of a human being (mind, personality, body) you have left open the door to possibility the the soul has multiple parts, i.e., mind, personality, body and that these parts have different significance and different eventualities pursuant to scripture and therefore can't be generalized as, simply, a soul.
Quote from: Jem on June 13, 2013, 06:51:34 pmNo Biep, I am not one of the "chosen ones" who have the "heavenly calling". I have not experienced a spiritual rebirth as one who will reign with Christ in heaven.But it is not just about reigning with Christ. There are two kingdoms, of darkness and of light.Those who are not reborn cannot even see, let alone enter, the Kingdom of light. They remain forever in the kingdom of darkness, where satan is the god.
No Biep, I am not one of the "chosen ones" who have the "heavenly calling". I have not experienced a spiritual rebirth as one who will reign with Christ in heaven.
I understand you preach the Kingdom - so do you then preach something you cannot even relate to yourself?
The coming Kingdom can be dated almost to the minute. Jesus said it was near, and the apostles stated it was there and they were in it.
Now read Luke 22:17-20. Jesus doesn't drink the fourth cup of the seder meal, because He won't drink wine till the Kingdom comes. That means the seder hasn't finished for Him yet. Also, there was no slaughtered lamb.
Then Jesus takes our sins upon Him, in Gethsemane. He spiritually dies - the Lamb is slaughtered. There is darkness, and light again - "between the evenings" (Exodus 12:6).
Then Jesus, who previously had refused wine, suddenly asks for it (John 19:28) - the sign of the Kingdom!
So John 19:28 describes the moment that the Kingdom opened up for us. From that point on there is no more preaching of the Kingdom (except explanations to Jews who had to be informed as to its true nature).
Jesus could keep His promise to the criminal (Luke 23:43), as Paradise, which is (in) heaven (it remained there when creation left heaven, which is why it cannot be found here on earth) was accessible again.
This Kingdom is our only hope of salvation. If you have no access to it, you are lost - whatever people around you may say -, and without rebirth you have no access to it. Please, don't take this lightly!
If your doctrine doesn't give you access to the Kingdom (something that you can directly test in your own life - John 7:17), it will not save you either!
Jehovah's "saints" or "holy ones" are not "all who have believed". They are a finite number (144,000) who make up the kingdom with Christ as Chief Administrator.
Those redeemed by Jesus' sacrifice will live forever as subjects of that heavenly kingdom on earth.
"He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins" Col 1:13, 14)
There is no mention of the absence of the Passover lamb at this celebration with his apostles.
Wine was not used at the Passover in Egypt nor was there any command given by Jehovah for its use with the festival.
Again you are reading into scripture what it does not say.
Jem,Do you believe the 144,000 are drawn from the 12 tribes of Israel as written in Rev 7:4-8?
Sorry, I am getting very confused here.In Revelation 6-7 we see three groups: the souls under the altar, the 144.000 from Israel, and the innumerable multitude from the nations (Goyim). All three are in heaven, and this is before the resurrections.I would hold these have no physical bodies, as there has been no resurrection yet, so these would be 'disembodied souls' in your parlance (I see that differently, as some hold palm branches, et cetera). They are all clearly conscious, too.
Given the innumberability, I would hold that these are simply the believers - not some select subgroup of them. They 'sleep', in that their behaviour doesn't affect their body, which is rotting in the grave. Their relation to their earthly bodies is like someone dreaming.
Yes - because the curse that pushed creation out of heaven will be gone, and the earth will be back in heaven, in the Kingdom of light. But anyone who cannot enter that Kingdom (as ruler or subject) will then be in the outer darkness.And whoever isn't reborn cannot enter or even perceive the Kingdom of light, and will stay in the darkness forever.
This step is already impossible without rebirth (of both soul and the spirit).
The third part of the rebirth, the body, comes at the resurrection, whether we live or are deceased, which is why our bodies cannot yet be in heaven.
QuoteThere is no mention of the absence of the Passover lamb at this celebration with his apostles.That is true, but the meal is described in some detail, and Jesus being the Passover lamb it is unlikely that the lamb would not have been mentioned.
Spiritual death, absence from the Father, is attested when Jesus asks why God has left Him. It was somewhere between His "let this cup pass" and His "why have you forsaken Me", and I have no problems putting in anywhere within this range.This is the real, the important death. Physical death happened after all was accomplished (John 19:28).
So we see the order:Real, spiritual death (absence from God);All is accomplished;The Kingdom comes;Jesus drinks wine, the code signal for his disciples that the Kingdom has come;Jesus dies physically.Likewise we are brought to life spiritually, but our physical resurrection is still pending.
The one important thing is: whoever is not reborn will stay in the kingdom of darkness. God wants something better for you! And that is not on an earth which still lies outside heaven, away from God's presence!
Jem,You've still failed to interact with my philosophical argument. I asked a rather basic question that only needed a yes or no (and that's all I want). I'll pose it again: if you die and God decides to create two identical bodies both with your exact personality, then are there now two yous or are you two persons now?Thanks.
Jem,It's a hypothetical. Hypotheticals do not need to be plausible. I'm not sure why you can't answer a simple question.
I have never been interested in philosophy personally. It is useless as a tool for finding or determining truth. (1 Tim 6:2-5)
This is not a simple question; it is a ridiculous question that leads nowhere. Is that where you want this discussion to go? (Col 2:8.) You have addressed nothing of the points of discussion so far but want to take this silly question much further than was ever warranted in the first place.Get to the point.I will not participate in useless arguments...sorry.
Quote from: Jem on June 15, 2013, 09:41:56 pmI have never been interested in philosophy personally. It is useless as a tool for finding or determining truth. (1 Tim 6:2-5)What? You are seriously applying that passage?
QuoteThis is not a simple question; it is a ridiculous question that leads nowhere. Is that where you want this discussion to go? (Col 2:8.) That's also a misuse of the passage.
This is not a simple question; it is a ridiculous question that leads nowhere. Is that where you want this discussion to go? (Col 2:8.)
Nonetheless, I'm not sure why you can't answer my question. My whole point is that if there is no continuity of person then it's not the same person. Thus, you must believe in some continuity which is the very thing you are trying to avoid.