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TheisticThunder

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2013, 03:52:16 am »
“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

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Biep

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2013, 03:57:00 am »
Just some remarks:
  • The Greek 'olethros' is better translated as 'ruin' than as 'destruction'.
  • Jesus used the wounds in His body as proof of identity.  If that body had not been the one that was killed, this would have been a horrible deception, a form of doing evil (lying) that good (disciples believing Him) may follow.
    The Jesus I know is not like that.
  • On the outer darkness, my guess would be that those in there at all moments choose themselves neither to leave nor to be annihilated.  But I am sure details will be forthcoming if needed, and they will make us adore Him even more.
  • Right now, the creation can be opposed to heaven: 'heaven and earth'.  This is comparable to the opposition between Jesus on earth and the Father.  As Jesus returned to the Father, creation will return to heaven, come back in God's presence, and 'on earth' will imply 'in heaven'.  Playing these notions against each other in eschatological discussions is creating a false dichotomy.
Let me expand on this earth-heaven thing.

In the beginning, God's creation was "very good", and it was in God's presence.  Nowadays, it lies in evil (1 John 5:19 - πονηρός, the word commonly used by Jesus to indicate the realm of satan).  How did it get there?  Romans 8:20 teaches us that it was God Himself Who put creation in this 'sterility' (Genesis 3:17-18; 5:29) - a sterility exemplified in pain of childbirth and thorns and thistles.
Romans 8:21, however, explains that creation will eventually share in the glory of the children of God.  Wherever we go (back in God's presence, in heaven), there creation will go too.
And just like we shall have to be glorified, creation will have to be.  As our bodies are part of creation, this is quite understandable: creation, including our bodies, is sterile and evil and needs to be spiritualised again before it can be brought in God's presence.
If it weren't for our bodies, we should be fully with God already, as our souls and spirits are already a new creation (as the Holy Spirit in us testifies).

Now imagine God had not cursed His creation.  He cursed satan, banning him from His presence, and Adam had to leave too, having chosen satan over God.  Away from God's presence means away from all light, all that is good - it is the outer darkness.  So Adam would have been in the outer darkness right away, without any chance for salvation.
Please remark the word 'abur' in Genesis 3:17: ba-avurecha = for your sake, to help you.  So God curses His creation to help Adam (and us)!
Thanks to this curse, Adam had a physical world to live in.  God being absent, this world was ruled by satan, but at least there was a world, and he could procreate until Jesus would appear, until Salvation would appear.
Likewise, all killings and genocides God ordered or executed were signs of His redeeming love.
To me, this shows God's character: He is willing to do anything to call us to Him, to give up everything - not only His creation, but also Himself in Jesus.  But He also accepts and respects our choice.  He didn't annihilate Adam for having chosen against Him, He wasn't and isn't an irascible eastern potentate.
I believe He will go on calling those who chose against Him, but at the same time fully respect their decisions and leave them in the outer darkness.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 11:58:43 am by Biep »
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I have very little energy at the moment, so don't expect much of me right now.

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Snoochies

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2013, 05:06:30 am »
On a phone here so can't pull up the scriptures.
 
When Jesus appeared after the resurrection, doesn't Jesus refute he was a spirit by saying a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have.

How would the disciples interpret that at that very moment? One would presume they saw a bodily Christ. If Jesus was a spirit, why would he say he wasn't. If he was a spirit that could become flesh, why would he hide that fact and let the disciples believe they saw a real person and not a spirit who can transform into a human.

The scripture says Jesus body would also not see decay, if he were raised as a spirit, then his body would naturally decay, but we still have an empty tomb on the 3rd day. Where'd it go? You would presume when Jesus is telling Thomas to touch his wounds, it would be the same body brought back to life.

Just what I observe.
"God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear." Psalm 46:1-2

* Forum members please note:- Just because I ask you lots of questions, this does not mean I know something better. I am merely asking to seek clarification and arrive at truth the best I can

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Jem

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2013, 05:22:37 am »
1.
You just denied Jesus rose bodily.
That is false teaching!

On the contrary, to suggest that Jesus rose in the flesh is calling Peter a liar. He clearly stated "Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit."

To be raised in the same body as he died would be to take back his ransom sacrifice. His body was offered up, he could not take it back.

Jesus was raised as a spirit. Spirits have ability to materialize human form.

Angels are spirit beings who have materialized human bodies to deliver messages to God's servants on earth. They ate and drank and spoke to Abraham and physically escorted Lot and his family out of Sodom after dining with them. (Gen 18:1-8; 19:1-3)

The rebel angels who forsook their heavenly dwelling place (Jude 6) materialized human bodies to indulge the pleasures of the flesh, to have relations with human women. (Gen 6:1,2) They bore children to them. These monstrous children had no right to live, so God wiped them out in the global flood along with wicked humans and forced their wicked fathers back to the spirit realm where he dealt with them. (2 Pet 2:4-6)

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After appearing to his disciples Jesus told Thomas to reach out to touch him, to feel his nail pierced hands and to feel his crucified body. He had risen with his body. It does not say 'made alive in the spirit', it says 'made alive BY the Spirit', the Holy Spirit. In other words the Holy Spirit had raised Jesus from the dead bodily.

The body that Jesus materialized had wound marks to convince the doubting Thomas. But there are many times when Jesus interacted with his disciples during the 40 days he remained after his resurrection. On none of those occasions are the wounds mentioned, even when he broke the bread and disappeared right before their eyes. (Luke 24:28-31) There is no mention of him staying with anyone during this period, yet he was in constant company with his apostles during his ministry.

Now how was Jesus raised?

after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm." (Holman)

"That meant the death of his body, but he came to life again in the spirit." (Phillips)

"having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit"
(NSAB)

"He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit." (NLT)

"He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit." (NIV)

There are a few  translations that disagree with you I'm afraid.  :-\

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2.
Eternal torture does not have to be exactly the same experience for everyone, it could be for example 'hotter' (to use a fire analogy) for some people in Hell than for others. The God who has been sinned against IS eternal (without beginning or end). That is what makes sin so severe!

Hmmm...would you like to give me some scriptural backing for that assumption? ???

God has only ever offered human beings life or death (Deut 30:19)...not heaven or hell. That is a teaching of Christendom, not the Bible.

Jesus offered heavenly life only to his "chosen ones", the ones Paul spoke of as having "the heavenly calling".
These will be his co-rulers in the kingdom. They will also be priests. (Rev 20:6) Who will they rule? Who will they be priests for?

Those who go to heaven leave their sinful flesh behind and put on immortality so they will not need to act as priests or rulers for each other. So who are their subjects, do you think?

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Of course humans should not be burning humans, that is murder.
Murder is a human-to-human act, and it is an abomination to God.
Note 1: God is not human.
Note 2: Everything that God does is good. Therefore an eternal Hell (in whatever form it may come - eternal flames, or just an eternal separation) is good.

Again, would you like to back up those assumptions with some scripture? You see when you make statements without backing them up, it doesn't mean much more than your own ideas.

Show me how beings made in the image of God would not find abhorrent exactly what he finds abhorrent. (Amos 5:14)

If we would not burn our children in a fire and God already said he found such an idea to be an abomination, what makes us believe that he could even entertain such an idea?  :-[

"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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Jem

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2013, 05:45:10 am »
On a phone here so can't pull up the scriptures.
 
When Jesus appeared after the resurrection, doesn't Jesus refute he was a spirit by saying a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have.

How would the disciples interpret that at that very moment? One would presume they saw a bodily Christ. If Jesus was a spirit, why would he say he wasn't. If he was a spirit that could become flesh, why would he hide that fact and let the disciples believe they saw a real person and not a spirit who can transform into a human.

The setting here is important Snooch.
The disciples imagined they beheld “a spirit [Gr., pneu′ma].” (Luke 24:36, 37) Jesus’ words in this situation evidently were not designed to convince them merely of his reality but to assure them that he was appearing before them in a fleshly human form and not in spirit form; hence, he told them to “feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.” (Luke 24:38-43; compare Gen 18:1-8; 19:1-3.)

There was, therefore, no need for them to be fearful, which was the effect produced on Daniel by an awesome angelic appearance of a completely different nature. (Compare Dan 10:4-9.)

It should also be remembered that the Jews were forbidden to consult with spirits. (Deut 18:10-12) It was important that they understood that it was him, resurrected. They had no knowledge of a spiritual resurrection at this point. Jews only believed in a physical resurrection, so as to calm their fears and instruct them, he materialized a body. Many times his disciples did not recognize him.

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The scripture says Jesus body would also not see decay, if he were raised as a spirit, then his body would naturally decay, but we still have an empty tomb on the 3rd day. Where'd it go?

In keeping with the prophesy, God made sure that Jesus' fleshly body was disposed of appropriately. Since 'flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom', it stands to reason that Jesus could not take his human flesh to heaven. Only spirit beings can dwell in the presence of God.  He was "made alive in the spirit" not the flesh, which was put to death.

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You would presume when Jesus is telling Thomas to touch his wounds, it would be the same body brought back to life.

It was the same wounds needed to convince Thomas. Apparently, no wounds were visible on any other occasion.
Remember that Jesus was raised by his Father. Do you think that he would raise him with all the terrible wounds inflicted on him in the day before his death? Jesus healed people with God's spirit...would the Father not heal the wounds on his son?  ???

"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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whateverist

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2013, 06:07:46 am »
In keeping with the spirit of the original post, I think that heaven and hell can be thought of as current qualitative mental states which coincide with nearness or distance from 'good'/'God'.  Perhaps 'God' is simply ones better nature or true self and being good and enjoying the fruits thereof is simply a question of alignment.

Then it doesn't matter that death is annihilation of separate existence.  Eternality is no more pegged to enduring through all time than it is to being confined to one minute or 70 years.  Eternality means being outside of time so there is no 'conversion rate' to an equivalent amount of time. 

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God Is Good

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2013, 06:15:05 am »
In keeping with the spirit of the original post, I think that heaven and hell can be thought of as current qualitative mental states which coincide with nearness or distance from 'good'/'God'.  Perhaps 'God' is simply ones better nature or true self and being good and enjoying the fruits thereof is simply a question of alignment.

Then it doesn't matter that death is annihilation of separate existence.  Eternality is no more pegged to enduring through all time than it is to being confined to one minute or 70 years.  Eternality means being outside of time so there is no 'conversion rate' to an equivalent amount of time.

would you rather be in a good or bad place for eternity, if you could actually choose and providing both places exist?

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whateverist

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2013, 06:23:00 am »
In keeping with the spirit of the original post, I think that heaven and hell can be thought of as current qualitative mental states which coincide with nearness or distance from 'good'/'God'.  Perhaps 'God' is simply ones better nature or true self and being good and enjoying the fruits thereof is simply a question of alignment.

Then it doesn't matter that death is annihilation of separate existence.  Eternality is no more pegged to enduring through all time than it is to being confined to one minute or 70 years.  Eternality means being outside of time so there is no 'conversion rate' to an equivalent amount of time.

would you rather be in a good or bad place for eternity, if you could actually choose and providing both places exist?

I'm quite enjoying where I am right now, thank you.  Remember there can be no eternity that doesn't include now .. lots and lots of now.

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God Is Good

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2013, 06:26:43 am »
Oh I forgot, you're one of the lucky ones who wont die  ::)

Didn't expect you to actually address the simple question though.
good luck with your lots of right now, :)

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whateverist

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2013, 06:36:20 am »
Oh I forgot, you're one of the lucky ones who wont die  ::)

Didn't expect you to actually address the simple question though.
good luck with your lots of right now, :)

Now I know I said just the opposite.  Life ends.  Separate existence ends.  Now goes on, but it will have to make do with out you or I.  But no now that comes after will ever be any more full of promise than this one.  Ahh, back in heaven.   :D

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whateverist

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2013, 06:38:50 am »
“There was never any more inception than there is now,
Nor any more youth or age than there is now;
And will never be any more perfection than there is now,
Nor any more heaven or hell than there is now.”

― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass

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Rostos

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2013, 06:43:49 am »
“There was never any more inception than there is now,
Nor any more youth or age than there is now;
And will never be any more perfection than there is now,
Nor any more heaven or hell than there is now.”

― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass

Their is ONLY 1 reason why one would choose hell - separation from God. That is because of pride. We know how God views human pride.

"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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God Is Good

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2013, 06:59:00 am »
I get a huge laugh when an atheist quotes someone and actually thinks it means anything at all.

I can almost picture them sitting there, high fiving themselves.
"guess I told him, there is no afterlife, my quote clearly proved that"

 ???

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Biep

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2013, 07:00:19 am »
To be raised in the same body as he died would be to take back his ransom sacrifice. His body was offered up, he could not take it back.
  • A body is part of creation.  We know that the whole of creation doesn't suffice to buy free a single person, so a fortiori a single body wouldn't be enough.  The theory that it was the physical death of Jesus that saves us just doesn't hold water.
  • To whom was this ransom according to your theory?  If to the devil, then God wouldn't have the right to dispose of the body, and satan would surely have produced the body to negate the resurrection message.
    If to God, then God could surely have given that body back after glorifying it.
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The body that Jesus materialized had wound marks to convince the doubting Thomas.
So now you turn Jesus into a trickster, making up fake wound marks.  And the wound marks of the Lamb in Revelation (standing as slaughtered) - are those fake, too?
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after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm."
This is not about Jesus being raised, but about the time described in John 19:28-30.  Jesus dies physically, but His spirit (which was dead when He had left God's presence) became alive.  Peter's passage goes on to explain that that spirit then went on to preach to those who had died in disobedience (1 Peter 3:19-20; 4:6) - God is just, and has the same salvation for all.
See Hebrews 11:39-40 - the reason that God hadn't given the people of old what they could have received at that time is that He wanted to given them something better, to wit the same salvation that we can have.
It is that great message that Jesus went on to preach to those "in prison" after his physical death.

As I wrote before in another thread, mixing up physical death with spiritual death muddles the (simple) image.  The day Adam sinned he didn't die physically.  The ransom death of Jesus isn't His physical one either (His work was complete before He physically died - read John 19:28 carefully.)
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Hmmm...would you like to give me some scriptural backing for that assumption?
He might point at Luke 12:47-48, I guess.  (But I interpret those verses differently.)
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God has only ever offered human beings life or death (Deut 30:19)
While your verse is inappropriate, the fact is true.  We can be in God's presence (life) or away from God's presence (death).  Adam has experienced both, as has Jesus.  Christians have experienced the first only in soul and spirit, not in the body yet.
-- Biep
I tend to post and run, but always hope to return eventually.  Don't hold your breath, though.

I have very little energy at the moment, so don't expect much of me right now.

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Biep

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2013, 07:15:28 am »
Apparently, no wounds were visible on any other occasion.
Where do you get that from?
At least in one occasion it seems the wounds were there - in Emmaus.  When Jesus He extended His right hand to them to offer them a piece of bread, He was recognised (Luke 24:30-31).  What would have caused that 'opening of their eyes', that sudden recognition?

What indication do you have that He didn't have those wounds on other occasions?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 05:26:26 pm by Biep »
-- Biep
I tend to post and run, but always hope to return eventually.  Don't hold your breath, though.

I have very little energy at the moment, so don't expect much of me right now.