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wonderer

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #105 on: June 19, 2013, 09:27:11 am »
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“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle

That is so brilliant.  I've read Cat's Cradle, but it's been a long long time ago.
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger

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Dionysius

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #106 on: June 19, 2013, 11:39:08 am »
Men who do evil, know they are doing evil, they do not need to be shown, they need to be stopped.

 Sounds good. I vote we institute capital punishment for any crime at all, from J-walking to mass murder. Let's do it! We'll teach those selfish little kids not to steal bubble gum from the store.
This world is blind. Only a few can see here.
Like birds escaped from a snare a few go to heaven.
-Dhammapada

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whateverist

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #107 on: June 19, 2013, 01:20:14 pm »
Quote
“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle

That is so brilliant.  I've read Cat's Cradle, but it's been a long long time ago.

Such a good story in so many ways but the Bokonist faith always struck me as ingenious.  I like the last rights where the person dying would repeat after the priest how grateful he was for having gotten to be "sitting up mud" and thus getting to see the wonder of it all.  No afterlife, just gratitude.  The thought of returning to a state of "lying down mud" seems to fill Christians with a sense of existential nihilism.  But a Bokonist accepts it with gratitude, wonder and dignity.  If I believed in gods I would definitely be a Bokonist.

Death and personal finitude only seems like a bad deal compared to pie in the sky but it is infinitely more than no consciousness ever.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 01:23:41 pm by whateverist »

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Jem

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #108 on: June 19, 2013, 05:19:19 pm »
There is of course an enormous difference between OT times, when those killed would still have a chance to hear the Gospel and accept it (1 Peter 3:19; 4:6) and NT times.

OK, you are not the first person to suggest that 1 Pet 3:19 is talking about spirits of wicked humans, but you miss the point of the next verse...."who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."

These are not disobedient humans, but disobedient "spirits" (rebellious angels) who came to earth in human form and co-habited with women and "ruined" everything. They had monstrous children who were called Nephilim, meaning that they 'cause others to fall down'. (Gen 6:1-8) They were violent bullies who brought mankind undone. (Gen 6:12, 13) This called for drastic action on God's part. Have you never wondered why God had to flood the whole world and destroy all forms of life outside the ark to rectify this problem? Why did Jesus use it as an example of the end times? (Matt 24:36-39)

1 Pet 4:6 is also NOT speaking about the physically dead because those hearing Christ were ‘dead in trespasses and sins’ before hearing his message, but would begin to ‘live’ spiritually because of faith in the good news he offered them. (Eph 2:1; compare Matt 8:22; 1Tim 5:6)

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When Jesus abolished the death penalty (or rather, restricted the prerogative to Himself - John 8:7), it was only one aspect of the general change to not ruling, not judging (Luke 6:37, 42-43; James 3:11-12) - theocracy was now to be the church, not the state, and the "death" penalty was banishment from the church.   Remark that in 1 Corinthians 5:13 Paul uses the language of Deuteronomy 13:5.
The role of physical death in the OT corresponds to the role of being outside the church in the NT.

First of all, John 8:8:7 is part of a passage that scholars consider to be a spurious passage, added later. The principle however is a good one.
 
The Jews at the time of Jesus' ministry had been dominated by Gentile powers for hundreds of years, just as was prophesied in scripture. The "Gentile Times" ("the appointed times of the nations" Luke 21:24) were to run their full course before God's kingdom was to take over rulership, firstly of Christ's disciples in a spiritual way, (Col 1:13, 14) and then at the end, taking over physical rulership of the entire earth. (Dan 2:44; Rev 21:1-4)

The 'separation of church and state' was already established long before Jesus came to the earth. The Jews had to get the Roman authorities to execute Jesus because they had no authority apart from what their ruling authorities gave them.

And yes, excommunication was the penalty for Christians who broke God's law.

The whole passage tells us the extent to which this was to be done....

" I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves."
(1 Cor 5:9-11)

This proves that not all judging was to be done away with. Jesus spoke about Christians judging one another. He said we would receive the same judgment ourselves. If we are harsh in our judgment of others, then he would be just as harsh with us.  :(

Judging (in a judicial capacity) is assigned to spiritual shepherds in the congregation and they are charged with making sure that willful sinners are not tolerated or known as members in good standing. They are also under Christ's judgment to fulfill this assignment fairly and justly....they also will be judged as they judge. The procedure was outlined by Jesus. (Matt 18:15-17)

God judges those "outside", but "inside", it is to be carried out as Jesus and Paul instructed.

JW's are often taken to task over this part of their belief system, but it is completely Biblical and it is designed to convey a clear message...willful sin will not be treated with a smack on the wrist as if God doesn't care about the conduct of his worshippers. (1 Cor 6:9-11)

It is not a heavy handed arrangement, but one designed to offer loving counsel to erring ones with a view to readjusting wrong thinking, (something all sinful humans are prone to.)
If someone is not open to counsel and continues in a course of opposition, they are removed from fellowship with the congregation. They are not physically removed, but denied spiritual fellowship.
This discipline has one of two outcomes; it either results in repentance and a coming 'home' to the family (like the prodigal son) or it embitters the person so that they never want to come back. God is reading the heart of these ones and will offer his spirit to repentant ones, withdrawing it from the unrepentant.

Hate sites put up by such embittered ones are plentiful, unfortunately. Pride goes before a fall.  :-[

"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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Snoochies

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #109 on: June 19, 2013, 05:34:06 pm »
Jem just a question in regards to Angels taking on human form.

Angels are spirits and these spirits take on human form, so in essence these humans have spirits. Are Angels who take on human form subject to death in human form as we are and what of their spirit if their earthly figures are killed? As you say, God can kill the spirit but man cannot. If man can kill the human Angel, does their spirit go back to what it once was?

Cheers
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* Forum members please note:- Just because I ask you lots of questions, this does not mean I know something better. I am merely asking to seek clarification and arrive at truth the best I can

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Jem

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #110 on: June 19, 2013, 10:15:22 pm »
Jem just a question in regards to Angels taking on human form.

Angels are spirits and these spirits take on human form, so in essence these humans have spirits.

Well we assume that they breathed. The spirit ( Heb ruach, Greek pneuma) in man is his breath. The 'soul' that is man is sustained by breathing. When the spirit departs, when the last breath leaves the body, the soul dies.

Animals are also "souls" but Jesus did not die for them. They have the same spirit as man, they breathe the same air that we do, and they die the same death. (Eccles 3:19,20)

So, I'd say it is more correct to say that these spirits have human form.

We know so little about angels except for what the Bible tells us. We know that angels are spirits and we know that the human form they took on was able to eat and drink and even produce children. We also know that God did not destroy the spirits that came to earth in Noah's time. The flood wiped out their offspring who had no business being conceived in the first place. There is no record of the Nephilim producing offspring themselves, so they were likely sterile. In any event, all the Nephilim were destroyed in the flood along with wicked humanity, and the demon angels simply dematerialised and returned to the spirit realm where God placed them in Tartarus, a condition of restraint. There is no record of them ever materialising again, but they were able to posess the bodies of humans after that. Many demons were expelled in Jesus' day, sometimes many from one individual.

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Are Angels who take on human form subject to death in human form as we are and what of their spirit if their earthly figures are killed? As you say, God can kill the spirit but man cannot. If man can kill the human Angel, does their spirit go back to what it once was?

It can only be answered by what is said in the Bible, which isn't much.

On one occasion, Jesus expelled many demons from an individual. The demons made a rather strange request which Jesus granted. They asked to be sent into a herd of swine. It is not really explained why. (Mark 5:1-13)

Why Jesus allowed this when the demons plunged about 2,000 swine off a precipice and into the ocean to drown, begs some questions that are not answered.

But since they could enter the bodies of animals, it might be a reason why all life outside the ark was destroyed; forcing the demons back to the spirit realm whilst destroying their abhorrent offspring, he saved the only righteous people in existence at the time. A very small proportion of the population was saved through the end of that world. Jesus said only a "few" would survive the big one to come. (Matt 7:13,14)  :(
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 10:19:41 pm by Jem »
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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Biep

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #111 on: June 20, 2013, 06:46:18 am »
These are not disobedient humans, but disobedient "spirits" (rebellious angels) who came to earth in human form and co-habited with women and "ruined" everything.
Ah, the nephilim theory from the book of Enoch.  Well, the book of Enoch is quoted by Jude, so we shouldn't be too quick to put it aside as worthless..  (Even though Genesis 6:4 states that the Nephilim were there already before the sons of God had sex with the daughters of man.)

But I can find no indication that spirits can "materialise".  It is true that angels for some tasks given bij God get bodies, but where does it say that they get those through some inherent capability to "materialise"?  If they are not given a body, it seems all they can do is parasitise on existing minds (and even swine are better than no mind at all).  This is true for spirits sent by God as well: Judges 19:22-24; 1 Samuel 16:14-16; 2 Kings 19:17; Isaiah 19:14; 29:10; et cetera.  They seem to act rather like memes.
And these beings are then, I suppose, the same as the 'sons of God' in Genesis 6:2 - so at that moment they weren't fallen yet.  So this theory presupposes a second fall in the angel realm, the devil having already fallen before Genesis 3.
It also presupposes that angels, who don't have sex, are susceptible to the attractions of female human beings.  I know some men are attracted to animals, but already attraction to plants is very rare - and here the distance is way bigger.
And they were put in prison (φυλακή isolated and guarded), whereas the devil reigns here and the time for dealing with demons hasn't come yet (Matthew 8:29; Revelation 20:1-3)
Then, Jesus preached to them (κηρύσσω, proclaiming the (good) news).  So they were given a chance for salvation.  Some accepted that chance and were taken back into heaven by Jesus (Ephesians 4:8)

That is quite a set of assumptions needed to support this interpretation - assumptions for which I cannot find a foundation.  Reading it simply as God giving the same chance to those who died before Jesus doesn't require all those assumptions, and is in line with other Scripture.

Let's look at Hebrews 11, which is about those who died before Jesus.  They were expecting heaven (11:16) but didn't get it yet (11:13).  Why not?  Because God didn't want to give it to them?  Of course not - this is a chapter about the value of faith, about how we can be sure even though we don't see it yet.
No, they didn't get it yet because God wanted to give us something better than simply salvation, namely salvation together with them (11:39-40)!
And in 12:1 we read they witness us - i.e. they are conscious, because one cannot witness something without being conscious.  Also, in sheol there is no understanding, so they are not in sheol any more.
So, before Jesus died they were in sheol, whereas after He rose they were no longer in sheol - so they must have left it during His death.  Which means they must have accepted the Gospel during that time.  Which means it must have been preached to them during that time.  By whom?  Not by living man, of course.
So even without Peter's verses, we can already deduce that Jesus Himself, or some angel, must have preached the Gospel during that time.
Here you find one real reason why Jesus died physically, after paying the ransom through His spiritual death.
God is not a respecter of persons - He does not treat people differently depending on details such as the moment of their death.

You see - the verse fits naturally within the clear framework of Biblical teaching, without requiring any extra hypotheses.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 04:07:45 pm by Biep »
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Biep

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #112 on: June 20, 2013, 07:26:05 am »
First of all, John 8:8:7 is part of a passage that scholars consider to be a spurious passage, added later.
Well, it certainly doesn't belong there in the middle of the other passage in John.

I personally tend to believe it is from Luke.  The Greek, the contents, the fact that in some old manuscripts it is placed there, and the fact that Luke's gospel is crammed - it simply couldn't be longer on a standard scroll.
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I tend to post and run, but always hope to return eventually.  Don't hold your breath, though.

I have very little energy at the moment, so don't expect much of me right now.

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wonderer

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #113 on: June 20, 2013, 11:19:07 am »
Quote
“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle

That is so brilliant.  I've read Cat's Cradle, but it's been a long long time ago.

Such a good story in so many ways but the Bokonist faith always struck me as ingenious.  I like the last rights where the person dying would repeat after the priest how grateful he was for having gotten to be "sitting up mud" and thus getting to see the wonder of it all.  No afterlife, just gratitude.  The thought of returning to a state of "lying down mud" seems to fill Christians with a sense of existential nihilism.  But a Bokonist accepts it with gratitude, wonder and dignity.  If I believed in gods I would definitely be a Bokonist.

Death and personal finitude only seems like a bad deal compared to pie in the sky but it is infinitely more than no consciousness ever.

I agree with you, but I think your comments bring up another interesting point.

I think gratitude is an evolved social emotion.  It facilitates mutual benevolence/reciprocity, that are key to life as a social species being beneficial.  I think that as such a social emotion, it is quite natural to associate the feeling of gratitude, with a person deserving of the gratitude.  In everyday social situations that works straightforwardly.  However, when one is pondering life, the universe, and everything else and has a sense of gratitude, an atheist can experience a bit of cognitive dissonance that a theist wouldn't have under the circumstances.

A theist has God to direct his gratitude towards, whereas an atheist may be in a somewhat intuitively strange position of feeling gratitude without there being a person to feel gratitude towards.

What do you think?
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger

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whateverist

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #114 on: June 20, 2013, 01:17:57 pm »

I agree with you, but I think your comments bring up another interesting point.

I think gratitude is an evolved social emotion.  It facilitates mutual benevolence/reciprocity, that are key to life as a social species being beneficial.  I think that as such a social emotion, it is quite natural to associate the feeling of gratitude, with a person deserving of the gratitude.  In everyday social situations that works straightforwardly.  However, when one is pondering life, the universe, and everything else and has a sense of gratitude, an atheist can experience a bit of cognitive dissonance that a theist wouldn't have under the circumstances.

A theist has God to direct his gratitude towards, whereas an atheist may be in a somewhat intuitively strange position of feeling gratitude without there being a person to feel gratitude towards.

What do you think?

On Agnostics International, I've been challenged by a born again, washed in the blood Christian fundamentalist to say to whom I offer thanks at Thanksgiving.  I responded, to no one, I'm just thankful.  There is no recipient I have in mind .. perhaps it is more like a gladness about what is.  You know, looking around and seeing that it is good.

I don't find any dissonance in that though, do you?  Heck, I can be thankful to have heard good live music without going up and telling the singer thanks.  It isn't as though he sang it just for me so it is almost a little presumptuous to thank him personally since it wasn't necessarily aimed at me.  Being grateful for his talent and for the opportunity to hear it is enough.

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wonderer

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #115 on: June 20, 2013, 02:03:14 pm »

I agree with you, but I think your comments bring up another interesting point.

I think gratitude is an evolved social emotion.  It facilitates mutual benevolence/reciprocity, that are key to life as a social species being beneficial.  I think that as such a social emotion, it is quite natural to associate the feeling of gratitude, with a person deserving of the gratitude.  In everyday social situations that works straightforwardly.  However, when one is pondering life, the universe, and everything else and has a sense of gratitude, an atheist can experience a bit of cognitive dissonance that a theist wouldn't have under the circumstances.

A theist has God to direct his gratitude towards, whereas an atheist may be in a somewhat intuitively strange position of feeling gratitude without there being a person to feel gratitude towards.

What do you think?

On Agnostics International, I've been challenged by a born again, washed in the blood Christian fundamentalist to say to whom I offer thanks at Thanksgiving.  I responded, to no one, I'm just thankful.  There is no recipient I have in mind .. perhaps it is more like a gladness about what is.  You know, looking around and seeing that it is good.

I don't find any dissonance in that though, do you?  Heck, I can be thankful to have heard good live music without going up and telling the singer thanks.  It isn't as though he sang it just for me so it is almost a little presumptuous to thank him personally since it wasn't necessarily aimed at me.  Being grateful for his talent and for the opportunity to hear it is enough.

I don't know if "dissonance" is the right word, but I do sometime note the impulse to express my gratitude to someone in situations where I'm just thinking about how cool it is to have conscious existence.
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger

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Jem

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #116 on: June 20, 2013, 06:55:11 pm »
These are not disobedient humans, but disobedient "spirits" (rebellious angels) who came to earth in human form and co-habited with women and "ruined" everything.
Ah, the nephilim theory from the book of Enoch.  Well, the book of Enoch is quoted by Jude, so we shouldn't be too quick to put it aside as worthless..  (Even though Genesis 6:4 states that the Nephilim were there already before the sons of God had sex with the daughters of man.)

No this is the Nephilim from the book of Genesis. More details are provided by Peter and Jude. (1 Pet 3:19; 2 Pet 2:4; Jude 6) There are non canonical books that fill in some historical detail.

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But I can find no indication that spirits can "materialise".  It is true that angels for some tasks given bij God get bodies, but where does it say that they get those through some inherent capability to "materialise"?  If they are not given a body, it seems all they can do is parasitise on existing minds (and even swine are better than no mind at all).  This is true for spirits sent by God as well: Judges 19:22-24; 1 Samuel 16:14-16; 2 Kings 19:17; Isaiah 19:14; 29:10; et cetera.  They seem to act rather like memes.

If you think about that, can you name any time that angels were sent to earth in human form who failed to carry out their assignment? Did any of them decide that because eating and drinking was a nice experience that sex would also be a nice thing to experience? This is as perverted for angels as it is for humans to practise beastiality.

The most who appeared at any one time was the three who visited Abraham to announce the future conception of Isaac and the two who then moved on to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah.

Can you imagine that a small number came to earth in Noah's day? What was their assignment? Can you see scripture stating any reason for their presence on earth except for immoral purposes? Their offspring "ruined" mankind at that time, necessitating a drastic solution to the problem. If they had been merely humans, God would have just dealt with them as he had with humans such as those in Sodom. Lot and his family were simply moved to a safe location whilst God dealt with the sinners.

The whole world of mankind had to be wiped out to deal with these ones....even all air breathing creatures perished. No living thing survived outside the ark. (Gen 7:22)

A whole mythology sprang out of their ledgend. The gods and demi-gods of later Greek mythology fit their behaviour to a tee.

Can you see God 'giving' powerful spirit beings bodies to come to earth if he did not trust them to be obedient? He had the ability to read motives so how could he sanction their activity by giving them the means to sin against him?

It seems much more likely, given the outcome, that they took it upon themselves to materialize flesh once they 'noticed the good looking daughters of men.' This was their sole purpose in coming to earth.

Pre-occupation with perverted sex has plagued mankind from the day Adam sinned. It is not a coincidence that the first thing they did once sin had entered the world, was to cover their reproductive parts. The sacred act of reproducing life could now become a sordid and disgusting act for sinful pleasure. God then had to separate sinful sex from the sacred union of God ordained marriage.

The Bible tells us right there in Genesis that the devil was the first fallen angel. It does not tell us when others joined him in rebellion. If angels could materialise at will ( how much do we really know about their abilities?) this would explain what transpired and why God responded as drastically as he did.

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And these beings are then, I suppose, the same as the 'sons of God' in Genesis 6:2 - so at that moment they weren't fallen yet.  So this theory presupposes a second fall in the angel realm, the devil having already fallen before Genesis 3.


The Bible indicates that as many as a third of the angels (who also possess free will) joined satan in rebellion. (Rev 12:3,4)

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It also presupposes that angels, who don't have sex, are susceptible to the attractions of female human beings.  I know some men are attracted to animals, but already attraction to plants is very rare - and here the distance is way bigger.
And that is exactly the point. The perversion is way bigger than anything man could do....as mentioned above. God's response should give us a fair idea about the degree of offence.

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And they were put in prison (φυλακή isolated and guarded), whereas the devil reigns here and the time for dealing with demons hasn't come yet (Matthew 8:29; Revelation 20:1-3)
Indeed, the time has not yet come, but it will soon.

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Then, Jesus preached to them (κηρύσσω, proclaiming the (good) news).  So they were given a chance for salvation.  Some accepted that chance and were taken back into heaven by Jesus (Ephesians 4:8)

Sorry, but as perfect beings they have no chance at repentance. Like Adam, they will be forever put out of existence because there is no excuse for perfect beings to 'make mistakes' like imperfect humans do. Their sin was wilful and deliberate, made in full knowledge of the consequences. The demons are not destroyed because God has not finished with them yet. (Rev 20:1-3)

The message Jesus preached to these "spirits in prison" was a judgment message. The only place that awaits them once they have spent 1,000 years in the abyss, is a release to test mankind one last time, and then it's the lake of fire, so they will never interfere with mankind again.

The scripture in Eph 4:8 is not related to imprisoned spirits at all. The "gifts in men" were those 'taken captive' out from the devil's hand. He goes on in verses 11-15 to identify these ones.

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That is quite a set of assumptions needed to support this interpretation - assumptions for which I cannot find a foundation.  Reading it simply as God giving the same chance to those who died before Jesus doesn't require all those assumptions, and is in line with other Scripture.

You put forward a fair set of 'assumptions' yourself. I find no foundation in scripture for your interpretation of events.

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Let's look at Hebrews 11, which is about those who died before Jesus.  They were expecting heaven (11:16) but didn't get it yet (11:13).  Why not? 

Whoa, let's back up a bit here....there was no expectation of heaven in Jewish belief at all. They expected Messiah's rule to be on earth.  Heaven was never mentioned in the OT at all. Right up until Jesus ascension the expectation was an earthly king ruling in an earthly Israel. (Acts1:6) only at Pentecost was it made manifest that the kingdom was heavenly. It is only after Pentecost that heaven is spoken about as a destination for Christ' disciples. Jesus' attempts to indicate a heavenly kingdom fell on deaf ears. Holy Spirit implanted in their hearts a desire to go to heaven. The natural desire of humans is to live in paradise on earth....the very place where the human race began.

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Because God didn't want to give it to them?  Of course not - this is a chapter about the value of faith, about how we can be sure even though we don't see it yet.

What they saw afar off was the rulership of God's kingdom on earth. This is what Jews believed. There was NO expectation of going to heaven.

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No, they didn't get it yet because God wanted to give us something better than simply salvation, namely salvation together with them (11:39-40)!
And in 12:1 we read they witness us - i.e. they are conscious, because one cannot witness something without being conscious.  Also, in sheol there is no understanding, so they are not in sheol any more.

Salvation for the majority will mean life in paradise conditions on earth, not heaven. These ones fully expected to be resurrected back to life on earth and they will be joined by all those in their graves. Jesus calls them out onto a cleansed earth to form one human family who will all be "taught by Jehovah". (John 5:28,29; 6:44,45)

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So, before Jesus died they were in sheol, whereas after He rose they were no longer in sheol - so they must have left it during His death.  Which means they must have accepted the Gospel during that time.  Which means it must have been preached to them during that time.  By whom?  Not by living man, of course.
So even without Peter's verses, we can already deduce that Jesus Himself, or some angel, must have preached the Gospel during that time.

That is a very scrambled account of events. Those in sheol are not called out of their graves until Christ comes again as king.
All sleep in death until it is time for "the first resurrection" to take place. The Revelation given to John at the end of the first century, was about the future so the "first resurrection" had not taken place. No one was resurrected yet.

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Here you find the real reason why Jesus died physically, after paying the ransom through His spiritual death.
God is not a respecter of persons - He does not treat people differently depending on details such as the moment of their death.

You keep speaking about Jesus' "spiritual death" when nothing of the sort is mentioned in scripture. Jesus had to be Adam's equivalent as a perfect human. His physical death...the outpouring of his blood is what paid the ransom; (1 John 1:7) this was reflected in the blood sacrifices in Israel. (Heb 9:22)

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You see - the verse fits naturally within the clear framework of Biblical teaching, without requiring any extra hypotheses.

Your definition might fit with your own hypothesis, but it certainly does not fit within the Bible's framework :-\

If God had millions of spirit creatures in heaven long before he created the material universe, why would heaven have much connection to earth except as a separate creative activity of the one who gives life to whomever he pleases? The material creation is simply another expression of God's creativity. The fact that the two realms collided was because of the disobedience of a spirit being who dragged the human race into his own rebellion.
He held us to ransom and our Father paid the price for our release. Does it have to be more complicated than that?


« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 09:03:10 pm by Jem »
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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Asking_A_Question

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #117 on: June 20, 2013, 06:58:35 pm »
Gosh, this is so incorrect historically.

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Jem

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #118 on: June 20, 2013, 08:57:35 pm »
Gosh, this is so incorrect historically.

Is it?

You are fond of these one liners without one shred of evidence for your claim.

This is the activity of a sniper. 
Snipers are the 'mosquitos' of forums like this. What is the purpose of this comment except to deliver a sting for the sake  of it?

Care to share where you find the inaccuracy?  ??? Either substantiate your comment or refrain from commenting altogether.  :-X

This is hardly an example of "substantive, irenic discussion", is it?
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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Asking_A_Question

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Re: Could it be that hell is not punishment?
« Reply #119 on: June 20, 2013, 09:06:40 pm »
Oh. I thought this was a forum where I could express myself. I didn't know you controlled it with certain necessary guidelines Jem. Also, what's the point since you are just going to.follow whatever the JWs tell you and you don't care to read people who disagree with you... You've even rejected logic to hold to your beliefs.