Larry Goad

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Help with an omniscience question
« on: July 16, 2012, 05:00:50 pm »
What is the best responsto when someone who doubts Jesus' omniscience brings up Matthew 24:36 when He said not even He knew the day or hour?

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Help with an omniscience question
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2012, 02:00:51 pm »
The Bible NEVER - not even ONCE - states that Jesus is omniscient.

I know not what you've been reading, but it's clearly not the Bible.

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Larry Goad

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Help with an omniscience question
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2012, 12:34:13 pm »
MrVirtualCoder wrote: The Bible NEVER - not even ONCE - states that Jesus is omniscient.

I know not what you've been reading, but it's clearly not the Bible.

The Bible never uses the word "Trinity" either but it CLEARLY teaches it as it does God's omniscience.  I was simply seeking help...not snide remarks.  In all my studies I have NEVER read a single theologian (who was accepted across the board as scholarly) who has not agreed that God is omniscient.

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Help with an omniscience question
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2012, 01:54:37 pm »
bigloadgoad wrote:
Quote from: MrVirtualCoder
The Bible NEVER - not even ONCE - states that Jesus is omniscient.

I know not what you've been reading, but it's clearly not the Bible.

The Bible never uses the word "Trinity" either but it CLEARLY teaches it as it does God's omniscience.  I was simply seeking help...not snide remarks.  In all my studies I have NEVER read a single theologian (who was accepted across the board as scholarly) who has not agreed that God is omniscient.

Trinity is a doctrine derived from Biblical scriptures
There ARE scriptures about the trinity in the writings of the Gospels, contrary to any about Jesus being a god, or God.

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John M

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Help with an omniscience question
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2012, 08:23:36 pm »
Well, unless you are using a poor translation (such as that from the Watchtower Society - a translation no professional Greek or New Testament scholar outside of that society would agree is very accurate) there is a very strong argument that the New Testament documents do claim Jesus is divine, aka, God. The usage of the term "kurios" throughout, some of Paul's letters and the first chapter of John (among other reasons) are used to show that Jesus is divine and the earliest Christian disciples believed it to be so. For those interested in more, see the Doctrine of Trinity podcasts here on RF.org as well as Dr. Craig's chapters on this in his books Reasonable Faith and Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview. Norman Geisler and N.T. Wright have material that also give arguments for Jesus' divinity as well (obviously, this is just a small sampling of contemporary material that argue for Jesus' divinity - you can even read the ante-Nicene writings of the early church fathers for material as well).

But, with that said, let's not derail the question posed in the OP. Let's assume Jesus is divine and thus omniscient for this exercise (the question of Jesus' divinity can be left as another exercise elsewhere).

> What is the best responsto when someone who doubts Jesus'
> omniscience brings up Matthew 24:36 when He said not even He knew the
> day or hour?

First, that can go towards arguing that Jesus was truly human - which is something all orthodox Christians also believe! We believe Jesus was truly human and truly divine - this just goes to prove the human part

 Now, I personally think Dr. Craig presents a very rational, plausible and possible model for Jesus's divinity (and specifically his omniscience) in his incarnate state. Rather than me regurgitate his full thoughts on how Jesus can be divine yet not know the time of his return, I recommend the following material.You will want to listen to the podcasts for Defenders 2, Doctrine of Christ, parts 1 through 8. You can also read very similar material in Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview, Chapter 30, "The Incarnation". If you want to go directly to the part that answers your question, listen to Defenders 2 podcast, Doctrine of Christ part 7 where he directly answers this question that he puts forth:

"This still leaves unexplained the problem of providing a realistic understanding of Jesus as we read about him in the Gospels. If Jesus was the Logos in the flesh, then why wasn’t he omniscient? Why didn’t he know everything? How could he be tempted? If he’s the second person of the Trinity he would just blow these temptations off like smoke. How do we understand the human consciousness of Jesus?"

In short, I will provide a quick summary of the three planks of Dr. Craig's possible model for the incarnation that can answer your question. Listen to the podcasts or read his material for in depth discussions:

1) We postulate (with the Council of Chalcedon) that in Christ there is one person who exemplifies two distinct and complete natures, one human and one divine.

2) We postulate (with the early church father Apollinarius) that the Logos (the Word, the second person of the Trinity) was the rational soul of Jesus of Nazareth

...and the important part that answers your question...

3) We postulate that the divine aspects of Jesus' personality were largely subliminal during his state of humiliation/incarnation.

Again, I highly recommend that you read Dr. Craig's materials or listen to his podcasts to get more in-depth information on these three planks, what they mean and why he proposes them.

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Larry Goad

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Help with an omniscience question
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2012, 08:48:23 pm »
Thank you so much Mazzgolf, that was a very helpful and concise reply! Much appreciated.

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Archsage

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Re: Help with an omniscience question
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2012, 09:37:21 am »
What is the best responsto when someone who doubts Jesus' omniscience brings up Matthew 24:36 when He said not even He knew the day or hour?

Jesus wasn't omniscient. He was a man, like you and me. Everything He knows, He knows from the Father.
“It is of dangerous consequence to represent to man how near he is to the level of beasts, without showing him at the same time his greatness. It is likewise dangerous to let him see his greatness without his meanness..."  –Blaise Pascal

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jayceeii

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Re: Help with an omniscience question
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2020, 01:37:13 pm »
Christians expect Jesus to come with proofs of God’s omniscience, and He does bear these, but in ways most inscrutable. The Lord wants friends, and unless you want to be His friend first, He isn’t too interested in proving His authority since you aren’t going His direction anyway. There are several reasons Jesus embodied does not know the hour of Judgment. The first and primary is that to the Lord it doesn’t matter. The Earth is going to go on as always, and any free people eager to support sustainable civilization here will always be welcome. Humans fall short of this measure, promoting an unsustainable state.

Next, to know the hour of Judgment places the Lord and any friends of His in danger, because today humans are prepared to persecute any assertions of authority, to the death.

Third, the Lord is mainly a display of God’s Personality, not His knowledge or power. As such in a friendly way He can often seem ignorant, in places angels arise to display their knowledge. The Lord maintains authority by having the deepest perspective, from the limitations of His exact embodiment. He dazzles anyone who has the wits to be dazzled.

In this regard there’s been an interesting series of “Perfect Stranger” movies, where Jesus appears and dazzles humans in ways the actual Jesus would never do. For instance this figure can speak any language on Earth automatically, but the actual Jesus will speak rightly in at least one language, rather than speaking wrongly in many languages as in the movie. These films show what humans expect is neither realistic nor reverent, their thoughts circling around their private desires and expecting Jesus to fit them like a shoe.