Archived

Omniscience

Read 9674 times

Yhwh4President

  • **
  • 47 Posts
  • Follow the Commandments
    • View Profile
Yah can not be Omniscient
« on: July 10, 2013, 05:30:00 am »
Genesis 6:5-7 "And Elohim saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
 And it repented Yah that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
And Yah said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

Notice very carefully that it hurt Yah to his very core at the badness he saw in the Earth, he had a feeling of regret to the point that he was feeling remorse for ever creating mankind!

These are very strong words indeed, for if you believe that Yah knows everything at all times, you are accusing our creator with knowingly creating evil, taking the responsibility from the evil men and putting it on his shoulders.

Why should this be the case?  Can it not be so that through God's gift of free will to us that he is relieved of responsibility when we choose actions deemed to be evil?  Could Yah be completely Omniscient if he feels sorrow and regret for things he obviously did not know would occur?
Isaiah 56:1-8 describes a promise which involves the holy mountain of the new promised kingdom, if you read these verses and you believe that Yeshua abandoned the Sabbath and created a "new law" you are sadly mistaken.
Keep the commandments, keep Yah's sabbath holy.

1

Asking_A_Question

  • Guest
Re: Yah can not be Omniscient
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2013, 09:07:39 am »
This is eisegesis. You are taking a narrative account and trying to make it speak directly about doctrine instead of taking texts that talk about doctrine and having them speak.

2

Yhwh4President

  • **
  • 47 Posts
  • Follow the Commandments
    • View Profile
Re: Yah can not be Omniscient
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2013, 03:20:56 pm »
This is using logic and reason, with a passage that gives evidence that Yah feels regret and was unaware of the potential badness of man before this point.

I see you didn't mention any scripture showing evidence contrary to this idea.

edit: by the way are you suggesting the Bible contradicts itself and that the Genesis narrative is wrong?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 04:03:58 pm by Yhwh4President »
Isaiah 56:1-8 describes a promise which involves the holy mountain of the new promised kingdom, if you read these verses and you believe that Yeshua abandoned the Sabbath and created a "new law" you are sadly mistaken.
Keep the commandments, keep Yah's sabbath holy.

3

Asking_A_Question

  • Guest
Re: Yah can not be Omniscient
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2013, 04:20:10 pm »
No. I'm saying you are making basic hermeneutical blunders by trying to take doctrine from narrative.

4

Yhwh4President

  • **
  • 47 Posts
  • Follow the Commandments
    • View Profile
Re: Yah can not be Omniscient
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2013, 04:28:35 am »
No. I'm saying you are making basic hermeneutical blunders by trying to take doctrine from narrative.

You really think that is what I've done here? Or are you afraid of questioning your own beliefs?
1. The narrative is inspired of God and true.
2. The narrative indicates that God felt sadness, sorrow, he repented (regretted).
3. Logically follows that God either didn't foresee the badness that would ensue or he deliberately caused it and knowing it would happen allowed it to happen anyways, in which case he would not need to repent.
Isaiah 56:1-8 describes a promise which involves the holy mountain of the new promised kingdom, if you read these verses and you believe that Yeshua abandoned the Sabbath and created a "new law" you are sadly mistaken.
Keep the commandments, keep Yah's sabbath holy.

5

Asking_A_Question

  • Guest
Re: Yah can not be Omniscient
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2013, 08:24:50 am »
So you first question my point that you made that mistake and then you go on to prove my point by making the mistake. That's impressive.

6

Yhwh4President

  • **
  • 47 Posts
  • Follow the Commandments
    • View Profile
Re: Yah can not be Omniscient
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 05:54:33 am »
You are the one making the mistake here.

You said I am "trying" to "make" a narrative account speak about doctrine.

The fact of the matter is that MANY doctrines in the Bible come from narrative accounts and that it is through these narratives we are taught the character of Yah and we see his judicial judgements as well as his own words.  The only way you can say it is improper to get doctrine from a narrative is to say that you do not believe the narrative is inspired by Yah, and that the words written there are a misrepresentation of Yah's character or attributes - which you already denied.

So you still have yet to even quote a single scripture, through reading these forums I notice you like to post a sentence trying to critique others when you yourself posit nothing and provide no scriptural basis for your beliefs, rather you suggest people "read a book" by someone who apparently does have an argument.  You really must think you are something special with skills like these.
Isaiah 56:1-8 describes a promise which involves the holy mountain of the new promised kingdom, if you read these verses and you believe that Yeshua abandoned the Sabbath and created a "new law" you are sadly mistaken.
Keep the commandments, keep Yah's sabbath holy.

7

Asking_A_Question

  • Guest
Re: Yah can not be Omniscient
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2013, 08:53:53 am »
I'm trying to teach you basic hermeneutics before anything else.  A basic hermeneutical principle is that a narrative can only teach a doctrine that is found somewhere else.  Thus, by you trying to make this narrative speak about doctrine you are breaking a basic principle.  You need to see this. On top of this, you contradict other scriptures which clearly speak about this.

Job 37:16
Do you know the balancings of the clouds,
 the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge.

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
 his understanding has no limit.

1 Samuel 2:3
Talk no more so very proudly,
 let not arrogance come from your mouth;
 for the LORD is a God of knowledge,
 and by him actions are weighed.

Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
 so are my ways higher than your ways
 and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth
 and sees everything under the heavens.

1 John 3:19-20
By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Hebrews 4:13
And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Isaiah 46:9
I am God, and there is none like me,
 declaring the end from the beginning
 and from ancient times things not yet done.

Matthew 10:30
But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Psalm 139:4
Even before a word is on my tongue,
 behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

8

Yhwh4President

  • **
  • 47 Posts
  • Follow the Commandments
    • View Profile
Re: Yah can not be Omniscient
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2013, 10:10:25 am »

Job 37:16
Do you know the balancings of the clouds,
 the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge.

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
 his understanding has no limit.

1 Samuel 2:3
Talk no more so very proudly,
 let not arrogance come from your mouth;
 for the LORD is a God of knowledge,
 and by him actions are weighed.

Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
 so are my ways higher than your ways
 and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth
 and sees everything under the heavens.

1 John 3:19-20
By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Hebrews 4:13
And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Isaiah 46:9
I am God, and there is none like me,
 declaring the end from the beginning
 and from ancient times things not yet done.

Matthew 10:30
But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Psalm 139:4
Even before a word is on my tongue,
 behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

1.) Job - Perfect in knowledge does not mean he knows every detail of the future, it can more likely mean the knowledge and understanding and the way he interprets reality is without flaw, if something happens which he did not foresee his knowledge is still perfect, however he may alter his plans and course of actions based on this new information.

2.) Psalm - Same as the first basically, you can see the poetic flow of it also.

3.) 1 Samuel - This is even more simple of a phrase, he is a God of knowledge, you could say William Lane Craig is a Man of knowledge (it obviously doesn't mean he knows everything that can possibly be known, past present and future included least of all).

4.) Isaiah - He is smarter than us and obviously knows what is best for us....very simple.

5.) 1 John - Yes he knows everything in our heart. Another one of the reasons he could say in the scripture of Genesis I quoted that their thoughts in their hearts were only bad all of the time, which he did not foresee happening and it hurt him so.

6.) Hebrews - Same as above. He knows our hearts and through his wisdom he can foresee mostly what our inclinations will be and that we are prone to wickedness (something he learned about us early on).

7.) Isaiah - He declares the end from the beginning because he MAKES his will occur, this is a powerful notion, is God more powerful for being able to intervene in such ways as to make his will occur or is he more powerful for simply watching history unfold that he already knows is going to happen? This is why he sends his angels to name Yeshua for instance or to do many many other things that must occur in a specific way.

8.) Matthew - He also names all of the stars, since he has no beginning and he is all powerful, there is no reason he cannot count the hairs on your head, this is a separate issue however from being Omniscient and knowing literally everything there is to know including all future events.

9.) Psalm - This is poetry, for someone criticizing me about taking doctrine from Narrative, I find it extremely funny that you would rather take your doctrine from poetry. This is an expression of God's wisdom and how well he knows our hearts, he can even predict so to say the words we will say perhaps based on our character and our past actions, but mostly this is poetry in my opinion so the fact that I am defacing your holy principles of hermeneutics while you get doctrine from poetry is really really fascinating to me...there was a hint of sarcasm in there if you didn't catch it over the text.
Isaiah 56:1-8 describes a promise which involves the holy mountain of the new promised kingdom, if you read these verses and you believe that Yeshua abandoned the Sabbath and created a "new law" you are sadly mistaken.
Keep the commandments, keep Yah's sabbath holy.

9

Asking_A_Question

  • Guest
Re: Yah can not be Omniscient
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2013, 10:13:02 am »
Wow.  You are really good at mutilating the texts.  Congrats.

10

Yhwh4President

  • **
  • 47 Posts
  • Follow the Commandments
    • View Profile
Re: Yah can not be Omniscient
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2013, 10:27:32 am »
Wow.  You are really good at mutilating the texts.  Congrats.

Assuming you don't keep the Saturday sabbath holy, and refrain from eating unclean foods I would also insult you by saying that you mutilate the laws that your creator has given you to keep for ALL of our generations, not to mention that if you celebrate Christmas and some other pagan religious traditions rooted in Babylonian Sun-God worship that you metaphorically smack your creator with the back of your hand because you disregard his command to learn NOT the way of the heathen (pagans) and their customs/traditions.
Isaiah 56:1-8 describes a promise which involves the holy mountain of the new promised kingdom, if you read these verses and you believe that Yeshua abandoned the Sabbath and created a "new law" you are sadly mistaken.
Keep the commandments, keep Yah's sabbath holy.

11

Asking_A_Question

  • Guest
Re: Yah can not be Omniscient
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2013, 12:30:21 pm »
That's ironic because Isa. 46.8-10 is actually God saying that He knows the future unlike the babylonian gods. 

Also, the 1 John verse says He knows everything, not just our heart.

And you also run into the problem that God has prophesied future events which I'm sure you are going to try and explain away somehow instead of letting the text speak for itself.

12

Yhwh4President

  • **
  • 47 Posts
  • Follow the Commandments
    • View Profile
Re: Yah can not be Omniscient
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2013, 10:32:59 am »
That's ironic because Isa. 46.8-10 is actually God saying that He knows the future unlike the babylonian gods. 

Also, the 1 John verse says He knows everything, not just our heart.

And you also run into the problem that God has prophesied future events which I'm sure you are going to try and explain away somehow instead of letting the text speak for itself.

I guess you didn't read Isa. 46. 11?
From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
It proves my point because he is saying he uses his power to influence the future through others.

1 John is completely ambiguous so I wouldn't rely on that so heavily.
Isaiah 56:1-8 describes a promise which involves the holy mountain of the new promised kingdom, if you read these verses and you believe that Yeshua abandoned the Sabbath and created a "new law" you are sadly mistaken.
Keep the commandments, keep Yah's sabbath holy.

13

Asking_A_Question

  • Guest
Re: Yah can not be Omniscient
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2013, 10:37:47 am »
I guess you didn't actually read the verse did you?

Isaiah 46:9
I am God, and there is none like me,
 declaring the end from the beginning
 and from ancient times things not yet done.

Does it say "declaring things that I will do" or does the verse actually read what is says?  You can try to get around it all you want but the verse is unambiguous.

Also, calling 1 John ambiguous is you simply showing that you don't like what it says. "γινώσκει πάντα" (ginoskei panta) literally means "to know" and "all things."  That's pretty straightforward.

I guess you are just going to avoid the prophecy issue.

14

Yhwh4President

  • **
  • 47 Posts
  • Follow the Commandments
    • View Profile
Re: Yah can not be Omniscient
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2013, 11:37:46 am »
I guess you didn't actually read the verse did you?

Isaiah 46:9
I am God, and there is none like me,
 declaring the end from the beginning
 and from ancient times things not yet done.

Does it say "declaring things that I will do" or does the verse actually read what is says?  You can try to get around it all you want but the verse is unambiguous.

Also, calling 1 John ambiguous is you simply showing that you don't like what it says. "γινώσκει πάντα" (ginoskei panta) literally means "to know" and "all things."  That's pretty straightforward.

I guess you are just going to avoid the prophecy issue.

How can you say I avoid the prophecy issue? I told you he can prophesy (tell us what is going to happen in the future) by making sure that what he says comes to pass, and he can do so through intervening via angels or miracles or many other ways, CAUSING the future to be what it will be. That is why he reveals himself to Moses as I will prove to be what I will prove to be (or He causes to become and the many other ways you want to say it).

Also on the topic I find it rather funny that you believe he can know literally everything in every tense, and yet the scripture says Yeshua learned things, clearly once again separating the two.  So either Yeshua being one with the creator (in the sense you believe it to be) would know literally everything and never have learned from his experiences, or both the trinity and omniscience are wrong as I hold and Yeshua can learn and so can Yahweh (as limited as things there are that Yahweh could learn since I do believe he knows everything [that there is to know])......alright? If you really can't understand my views still I'm not sure what else I could say to get you to see it.
Isaiah 56:1-8 describes a promise which involves the holy mountain of the new promised kingdom, if you read these verses and you believe that Yeshua abandoned the Sabbath and created a "new law" you are sadly mistaken.
Keep the commandments, keep Yah's sabbath holy.