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Biep

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #810 on: August 14, 2013, 04:54:38 pm »
Did God manage to preserve the correct text somewhere, or did the devil manage to corrupt all copies of all NT documents in a uniform way?
Sure he did.  That's why we have the NWT among other fine translations.
(I assume "He did" here means "God preserved", not "the devil corrupted".  Is that correct?)
Great!  So where is this correct text from which these "fine translations" were made?
I don't follow. Are you unfamiliar with the operation of Jehovah God's holy spirit?

Not at all - I wouldn't be here without it, but that is not the issue here.  You claim that there are uncorrupted copies of the NT manuscripts, and cite the existence of "fine translations" of these texts as a proof.

So I want to know where I can find these uncorrupted texts from which these "fine translations" were made.
Or do you mean that the translators didn't work from manuscripts, but from the pure text as revealed to them by the Holy Spirit?

(And on a side track: why do you capitalise the words 'satan' and 'devil', but not 'spirit' when applied to God's Spirit?  I can understand the latter in a context of little capitalising at all, but in combination with the former it makes a weird impression, especially in a honorific-like title as is "satan the devil"..)
-- Biep
I tend to post and run, but always hope to return eventually.  Don't hold your breath, though.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #811 on: August 14, 2013, 04:59:12 pm »
How is that any different than, for example, demanding I prove the Magical Unicorn Zoom-Zoom was not the responsible agent? I don't follow ...

Well, if you had good textual support for a Bible passage claiming that the Magical Unicorn Zoom-Zoom was the responsible agent, a claim that She wasn't would certainly need some backing up.
Excellent! Now, what good textual support do you have to claim that Jesus was the responsible agent who performed the events we've been discussing from Exodus and Numbers?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #812 on: August 14, 2013, 05:02:26 pm »
What do you mean by "variant?" I'd rather ask than presume :)

Simply put, variants are the differences in the manuscripts. For instance, some manuscripts read it was Jesus who delivered Israel from Egypt, others say it was the Lord. There are other options as well in addition to these two, but these are not considered plausible.
Thank you for that clarification. The variants you seek, then, are not extant. How, then, were the NWT editors able to correctly ascertain the correct text of Jude 5? By direction from Jehovah God's holy spirit and a careful assay of the Bible as a whole.
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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veka

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #813 on: August 14, 2013, 05:10:26 pm »
Maxx

Would you now show me, without begging the question, why "Jesus" is not more (or the most) preferable reading?
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #814 on: August 14, 2013, 05:12:32 pm »
Did God manage to preserve the correct text somewhere, or did the devil manage to corrupt all copies of all NT documents in a uniform way?
Sure he did.  That's why we have the NWT among other fine translations.
Quote
(I assume "He did" here means "God preserved", not "the devil corrupted".  Is that correct?)
Yes, apologies for the confusion. Jehovah God has preserved the text of his Inspired Word.


Great!  So where is this correct text from which these "fine translations" were made?
I don't follow. Are you unfamiliar with the operation of Jehovah God's holy spirit?

Quote
Not at all - I wouldn't be here without it, but that is not the issue here.  You claim that there are uncorrupted copies of the NT manuscripts, and cite the existence of "fine translations" of these texts as a proof.

So I want to know where I can find these uncorrupted texts from which these "fine translations" were made.
Or do you mean that the translators didn't work from manuscripts, but from the pure text as revealed to them by the Holy Spirit?
I'm saying that the NWT editors were guided by Jehovah God's holy spirit as they carefully translated God's word from the ancient languages into the vernacular.


Quote
(And on a side track: why do you capitalise the words 'satan' and 'devil', but not 'spirit' when applied to God's Spirit?  I can understand the latter in a context of little capitalising at all, but in combination with the former it makes a weird impression, especially in a honorific-like title as is "satan the devil"..)
First, Jehovah's holy spirit is not an individual but his active force. As such, "holy spirit" is not a proper name.


Next, your subsequent question is very curious. If I may, do you know what "satan" and "devil" actually mean?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #815 on: August 14, 2013, 05:14:33 pm »
Maxx

Would you now show me, without begging the question, why "Jesus" is not more (or the most) preferable reading?
Such a reading would create conflict with passages in Exodus and Numbers which uniquely identify Jehovah as the protagonist of these actions.

Would you not have a problem if the Bible contradicted itself?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #816 on: August 14, 2013, 05:15:51 pm »
Maxx

Would you now show me, without begging the question, why "Jesus" is not more (or the most) preferable reading?
In fact, let me put to you the same question that I've put to Biep. What good textual support do you have to claim that Jesus was the responsible agent who performed the events we've been discussing from Exodus and Numbers?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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veka

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #817 on: August 14, 2013, 05:34:56 pm »
In fact, let me put to you the same question that I've put to Biep. What good textual support do you have to claim that Jesus was the responsible agent who performed the events we've been discussing from Exodus and Numbers?

This thread is fully of evidence that the Bible teach that Jesus is fully God. It should be enough.
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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lapwing

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #818 on: August 14, 2013, 05:40:10 pm »
Quote
How, then, were the NWT editors able to correctly ascertain the correct text of Jude 5? By direction from Jehovah God's holy spirit and a careful assay of the Bible as a whole.
So the NWT editors and JWs are right and Christendom is wrong because the NWT editors and JWs say so ... and no other reason.

So the NWT editors wrote out the Bible guided only by God's Holy Spirit without recourse to any ancient manuscripts. Is that right? Did they receive some golden plates from the angel Gabriel?

You can't use this lack of extant original autographs to change the Bible to what you want it to say and maintain any semblance of integrity.

Quote
What good textual support do you have to claim that Jesus was the responsible agent who performed the events we've been discussing from Exodus and Numbers?
Codex Vaticanus and Alexandrinus for a start - see earlier post.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 03:32:21 am by lapwing »
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #819 on: August 14, 2013, 06:25:08 pm »
In fact, let me put to you the same question that I've put to Biep. What good textual support do you have to claim that Jesus was the responsible agent who performed the events we've been discussing from Exodus and Numbers?

This thread is fully of evidence that the Bible teach that Jesus is fully God. It should be enough.
Which of the conflicting, competing Trinitarianisms are you referring to, which one is truth and how do you know?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #820 on: August 14, 2013, 06:25:57 pm »
Quote
One could easily argue that Satan influences the founder of cults such as the JWs.
"Anyone [] pronouncing the righteous one wicked [is] something detestable to Jehovah." -Proverbs 17:15 (Brackets mine.)

You've levied an extremely grievous imputation!

Christ declared that the way to clearly identify Satan's followers was to evaluate their fruitage, their actions. He affirmed, "every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]." (Matthew 7:17,18,20)

I challenge you, then, to substantiate your slander! That or retract it immediately with apologies!
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #821 on: August 14, 2013, 06:28:06 pm »
Maxx

Would you now show me, without begging the question, why "Jesus" is not more (or the most) preferable reading?
Such a reading would create conflict with passages in Exodus and Numbers which uniquely identify Jehovah as the protagonist of these actions.

Would you not have a problem if the Bible contradicted itself?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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veka

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #822 on: August 14, 2013, 06:29:01 pm »
Which of the conflicting, competing Trinitarianisms are you referring to, which one is truth and how do you know?

None. I refer to the Biblical evidence, some of it presented in this thread, that Jesus is fully God.
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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veka

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #823 on: August 14, 2013, 06:32:43 pm »
Such a reading would create conflict with passages in Exodus and Numbers which uniquely identify Jehovah as the protagonist of these actions.

Would you not have a problem if the Bible contradicted itself?

And what is the reason why such a reading would conflict with Exodus and Numbers?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 06:34:42 pm by veka »
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #824 on: August 14, 2013, 06:58:32 pm »
Which of the conflicting, competing Trinitarianisms are you referring to, which one is truth and how do you know?

None. I refer to the Biblical evidence, some of it presented in this thread, that Jesus is fully God.
Fine, no problem. What have you christened your pet definition of Trinitarianism? You know, so I can keep from confusing it with all the other ones its competing with.
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17