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lapwing

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #165 on: July 20, 2013, 02:55:23 am »
Jem,
Quote
He appointed a slave to feed the members of his household their "food at the proper time". (Matt 24:45-47) All was not revealed at once, but the "sacred secret" has gradually unfolded over time. We are told what we need to know, when we need to know it.
This is a parable about the need to faithfully fulfil a responsibility in view of the imminent return of a master. The original application may have been to the religious leaders in Jesus' day, though it was applied later to Christian leaders. So although the principle still applies, the intention of the parable is not to single out a particular person and apply it to that person.
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Jem

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #166 on: July 20, 2013, 05:19:00 am »
Jem,
Quote
He appointed a slave to feed the members of his household their "food at the proper time". (Matt 24:45-47) All was not revealed at once, but the "sacred secret" has gradually unfolded over time. We are told what we need to know, when we need to know it.
This is a parable about the need to faithfully fulfil a responsibility in view of the imminent return of a master. The original application may have been to the religious leaders in Jesus' day, though it was applied later to Christian leaders. So although the principle still applies, the intention of the parable is not to single out a particular person and apply it to that person.

You know what the parables were for lapwing. They helped get a concept across in simple illustrations that his audience understood. As you said, they weren't just for the people Jesus spoke to but there was a wider application for his disciples down through time. 

The "wheat and the weeds", "the ten virgins" "the minas" all pointed ahead to the time of the end.

The wheat and the weeds was speaking about the false Christianity sown by the devil "while men were sleeping". The weeds were not to be uprooted right away, but the two were permitted to "grow together" until the "harvest time".

We are living in the time of the harvest right now. Angels are poised to do the reaping of the weeds very soon now.

"The ten virgins" also picture the same people. All were originally invited to the wedding feast. But the bridegroom was delayed and all the virgins fell asleep. When the call was heard that the bridegroom was coming, only the wise ones had extra oil for their lamps and were permitted to go in with the groom to the marriage feast. The foolish ones had nothing to light their lamps and were left out in the darkness, rejected for being foolish and unprepared. This is basically the wheat and the weeds again.

The "faithful and discreet slave" is appointed by Jesus before his departure to feed His household of slaves their "food at the proper time". The household are the wheat, and the ones appointed to feed the rest are part of that group as well. No one outside the household gets fed. Nor are the slaves permitted to feed themselves or accept food from anyone else.

Many of Jesus' illustrations were pictorial portrayals of the same group.

The faithful save is a class of men who have been doing their job since Jesus left. They are still doing it when he returns. That means that he has been active in his duties for almost 2,000 years now, so he is clearly not a single individual. Today, we have every reason to believe that the slave is feeding Jehovah's people, as he was instructed to do, having accepted the cleansing and refining and understanding of the knowledge made available at the time of the end. It was all foretold by Daniel. (Dan 12:4, 9, 10)
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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Asking_A_Question

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #167 on: July 20, 2013, 08:04:10 am »
Anyone interested in interacting with my exegesis?

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lapwing

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #168 on: July 20, 2013, 08:59:18 am »
Jem,
That's all very well - you've given a good explanation of parables and their function. it's just that the JW hierarchy goes a lot further in turning this parable into a prophecy.

Quote
Quote from: Wikipedia
"At the 2012 Annual Meeting of the Watch Tower Society, the "faithful and discreet slave" was defined as referring to the Governing Body only."

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses and http://www.jw.org/en/news/events-activities/annual-meeting-report-2012/

In the actual report ( http://www.jw.org/en/news/events-activities/annual-meeting-report-2012/ ) we have:

Quote
When Did Jesus Appoint “the Faithful and Discreet Slave” Over His Domestics?

Consider the context of Jesus’ words in Matthew chapter 24. All the verses listed here were to be fulfilled during Christ’s presence,
“the conclusion of the system of things.”—Verse 3.
“The tribulation of those days.”—Verse 29.
“This generation.”—Verse 34.
“That day and hour.”—Verse 36.
 The “day your Lord is coming.”—Verse 42.
“At an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.”—Verse 44.

Logically, then, “the faithful and discreet slave” must have appeared after Christ’s presence began in 1914.
Moreover, Jesus indicated that this “slave” would appear during a time when a legitimate question would be: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?” Jesus’ apostles had miraculous gifts of holy spirit, so there was scant reason to raise that question in the first century C.E. (1 Corinthians 14:12, 24, 25) Although they were anointed by holy spirit, the apostles and other first-century Christians were not “the faithful and discreet slave” prophesied by Jesus.

It is reasonable to conclude, then, that Jesus appointed “the faithful and discreet slave” over “his domestics” during his presence, “the conclusion of the system of things.”

“Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?”

Jesus was referring, not to an individual, but to a composite “slave”—a group working together as one body. Jesus said that the slave (1) is appointed to a supervisory role “over [the master’s] domestics” and (2) gives the domestics spiritual “food at the proper time.”

From 1919 on, there has always been a small group of anointed Christians at the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They have supervised our worldwide preaching work and have been directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. In recent years, that group has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The evidence points to the following conclusion: “The faithful and discreet slave” was appointed over Jesus’ domestics in 1919. That slave is the small, composite group of anointed brothers serving at world headquarters during Christ’s presence who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. When this group work together as the Governing Body, they act as “the faithful and discreet slave.”

It is clear that the JW governing body is not treating this passage properly as a parable which uses an ordinary day to day situation to teach a general point, but have distorted it into a prophecy that such a slave would emerge in history and have appropriated for their own aggrandisement.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 09:01:58 am by lapwing »
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Biep

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #169 on: July 20, 2013, 03:46:36 pm »
Can Christendom make that claim?  ???
As a whole, no.  When you lump everything together, of course that includes the bad apples.  "Can those holding the Bible is God's Word make that claim?"  No, so the JWs, who are part of that group, can be discarded.

Many Christian groups can make that claim - the Mennonites, for instance.

And the moment of Jesus' entering His Kingdom has been indicated in the Bible almost to the minute, and it wasn't 1914.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 03:51:47 pm by Biep »
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I have very little energy at the moment, so don't expect much of me right now.

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anuts

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #170 on: July 20, 2013, 04:54:08 pm »
Suppose scripture is still unclear on this to you, doesn't it just seem intuitive that a person of non divinity would not be sufficient enough in the justice of sacrifice for all? That is; the sacrifice to end all sacrifices, the power to cover all sins, and to show the love the Father has over His most prized creation. If justice is of equal importance to love in the message than anything short of divinity is short on both.
I almost washed my car today. Therefore, it almost rained.

Whatever happens next; do that.

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Jem

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #171 on: July 20, 2013, 06:49:13 pm »
Suppose scripture is still unclear on this to you, doesn't it just seem intuitive that a person of non divinity would not be sufficient enough in the justice of sacrifice for all?

Do you understand the basis for the ransom anuts? ???

God's laws are reflected in all his activities. His justice is seen in all the laws he gave to Israel, they have existed in principle with God even before he wrote them down. But until he informed men of his laws, they could not really be held accountable for breaking them. (Rom 4:15)

Blood in the Bible is synonymous with life. That is why blood sacrifices were prescribed under the law. (Heb 9:22)
In order to make atonement for sin and keep living, they had to offer blood on the alter.

The blood atoned for the sin of Adam reflected in the nature of his children. But these animal sacrifices were temporary until the sacrifice of the Christ came and offered a ransom for the entire human race once and for all time. How did that work?

God's law required "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, life for life". (Ex 21:23-25) Equivalency satisfied Jehovah's perfect justice.

When Adam sinned, he lost his perfect life...he exchanged it for a piece of fruit offered by his now sinful wife.

It didn't end there however. Adam and his wife paid for their sin by undergoing the stated penalty...death.
But their children would inherit the stain of sin from them, through no fault on their part. (Rom 5:12)
In order to rescue them from this never ending cycle of sin and death, a perfect life had to be offered in exchange for the perfect life that Adam forfeited. No human was now perfect in order to provide it. A perfect human could only come from outside the now sinful human race, but he had to be a descendant of Adam (but without sin,) in order to balance the scales of justice. Jesus willingly offered to be that sacrifice and offer his life for all of Adam's children.

It is true that Jesus died for all, but there were conditions, just as there were conditions in Eden. Continued life was dependent on obedience to the Father. That same condition applied to Adam's children too. Only those obedient to the word of God and the teachings that came through his son, would inherit everlasting life.

Quote
That is; the sacrifice to end all sacrifices, the power to cover all sins, and to show the love the Father has over His most prized creation. If justice is of equal importance to love in the message than anything short of divinity is short on both.

Not so. The divine justice of the Father is satisfied in the sacrifice of his son. Jesus did not have to be God in order to offer a perfect life for humankind. All he had to be was trustworthy of the assignment.

Think about this....our Father has given free will to very powerful beings and as long as there were no others of lesser power, there was no problem that we are aware of. But God extended his creative abilities to material beings on a material planet in a material universe. These "lesser beings" ("a little lower than angels" Heb 1:7) were now seen by satan the usurper, God's adversary, as legitimate worshippers. He could be to them, what he told Eve she could be..."Like God".

A trustworthy son was needed when others had abused their free will and betrayed him, both in heaven and on earth. Free will was a precious gift and God was not going to withdraw it in order to gain man's obedience. He would allow choice in this life and death issue.

The whole scenario in Eden was about sovereignty.....God's Universal Sovereignty. Getting the human race to disobey the Father allowed satan to get what he had obviously always wanted.

Right up to this day, we are being tested to see whom we will chose as our God.

The devil has set up a rival for everything Jehovah has and is. He mimics what Jehovah does and draws worshippers to himself by lying to them. Deception s his stock in trade. His tricks are not new, but with each new generation, he must teach them the same lies in order for the worship he desires to continue.

Mankind have been choosing their god(s) from the beginning. We are still choosing even today.

According to the Bible, satan has the "many" on the wrong road.... Even those who think that they are Christians. (Matt 7:13 14; 21-23)

It's time to wake up and see Christendom for what she really is, a fake Christianity created by the devil.....and vote with your feet. (Rev 18:4, 5)

Time is running out.  :(

"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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Curt J. O'Brian

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #172 on: July 21, 2013, 12:38:36 am »
The one flaw in this argument is that Jesus was back in heaven as supposedly part of the godhead again, so how does one part of God call another part of himself, "my God"?

This is actually more complicated than it seems, but I'll leave it at this as it's relatively unimportant.

Again, Trinitarians view the Father as functionally superior to Jesus (he's the team leader, so to speak) and as such it would be appropriate for him to be viewed as Jesus' God. Also
"Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but upon what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force! But Jesus Christ founded His upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him.”
–Napoleon Bonaparte I

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God Is Good

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #173 on: July 21, 2013, 02:14:01 am »
When Jesus discussed his father which is God, he referenced him as a third person.

This verse says it all.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

And here is another verse where he spoke of  God as a third person

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


So, no, Jesus is not God

there are tons and tons of references where Jesus clearly spoke of God as a third person.


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Jem

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #174 on: July 21, 2013, 02:45:51 am »
Jem,
That's all very well - you've given a good explanation of parables and their function. it's just that the JW hierarchy goes a lot further in turning this parable into a prophecy.

Just curious to ask if you believe that the parable of the wheat and the weeds is a prophesy? What about the ten virgins?

Quote
It is clear that the JW governing body is not treating this passage properly as a parable which uses an ordinary day to day situation to teach a general point, but have distorted it into a prophecy that such a slave would emerge in history and have appropriated for their own aggrandisement.

If you insist lapwing, I can't tell you what to believe. All I can do is tell the message that has been given me to tell.

What you do with it is up to you.  :-\
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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lapwing

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #175 on: July 21, 2013, 05:38:30 am »
The parable of the ten virgins has an eschatological message but is not meant to refer to a specific future event or set of people.

All I've done is present to you and others what the JW leadership have said in their meetings. It wasn't falsified.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 09:09:18 am by lapwing »
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Jem

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #176 on: July 21, 2013, 06:00:45 am »
The wheat and the tares and the ten virgins parables have an eschatological message but that doesn't make them prophecy. Interesting that JWs haven't appropriated the ten virgins to themselves.

Did the parable translate into reality lapwing? Were there weeds or tares sown among the "wheat"?

Will the harvest take place just as Jesus said? If it does, that makes it a prophesy.

His disciples approached Him and said, “Explain the parable of the weeds in the field to us.”

He replied: “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man;  the field is the world; and the good seed—these are the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,  and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.  Therefore, just as the weeds are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.  The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather from His kingdom everything that causes sin and those guilty of lawlessness.  They will throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s kingdom. Anyone who has ears should listen!"
(Matt 13:36-43)

"Oversowing a wheat field with weeds is a deed of enmity not unknown in the Middle East. “The weeds” referred to are usually believed to be the poisonous bearded darnel (Lolium temulentum), its poisonous properties generally thought to stem from a fungus growing within these seeds. It has an appearance much like that of wheat until maturity, but then it can be readily identified. If eaten, it can result in dizziness and, under certain circumstances, even death. Since the roots of these weeds readily become intertwined with the roots of the wheat, to uproot them before harvest, even if they could be identified, would result in loss of wheat." (Insight Volumes)

The harvest time is almost upon us......the prophesy will come to fulfillment.
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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Biep

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #177 on: July 21, 2013, 08:10:25 am »
God's law required "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, life for life". (Ex 21:23-25) Equivalency satisfied Jehovah's perfect justice.
Jem,
I have shown several times that this verse is inapplicable in two ways: it talks about the wrong crime (bodily injury, whereas here we are dealing with sacrilege and theft), and it was already superseded by Jesus himself (Matthew 5:38-39).

If this is what your "slave" is teaching you, he is not feeding you but maltreating you.  He's definitely not a faithful slave.

Quote
Jesus did not have to be God in order to offer a perfect life for humankind. All he had to be was trustworthy of the assignment.
He had to be infinite to pay the price.
He had to be God to free from the Law (Romans 7:3).  The covenant was with God, so God had to die to free us from it.  This too I have explained in detail before.
If Jesus weren't God, the old covenants would still be in full force and condemn us, as Colossians 2:14 would have been false.

A faithful slave would teach you this; a faithless rebel would teach the opposite.

Quote
The devil has set up a rival for everything Jehovah has and is. He mimics what Jehovah does and draws worshippers to himself by lying to them.  Deception is his stock in trade.
Think about this one.

Quote
Time is running out.  :(
So please, get away from this deceiver posing as a "faithful slave" while you still can!
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 03:47:44 pm by Biep »
-- Biep
I tend to post and run, but always hope to return eventually.  Don't hold your breath, though.

I have very little energy at the moment, so don't expect much of me right now.

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lapwing

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #178 on: July 21, 2013, 09:11:06 am »
Jem,
I was not precise enough in defining prophecy so I apologise for that.

Note that I said "The wheat and the tares and the ten virgins parables have an eschatological message".
Eschatology="the part of theology concerned with death, judgement, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind" from http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/eschatology?q=eschatological#eschatology__4
So I was saying that these parables are concerned with the final destiny of humankind i.e. future events

When I said "not a prophecy" I meant that a a parable such as that of the faithful servant in Mt 24 doesn't mean that a particular person or persons will emerge who actually is this faithful servant. This is the error the JW leadership have made and I have shown you. They are saying that they are actually the "faithful and discreet slave". So they are making two false claims:

1. The parable is referring to an actual person or persons who will emerge later in history. This is an abuse of scripture and this abuse I have termed as the parable not being a prophecy i.e. not predicting specific future events.
Prophecy="a prediction of what will happen in the future" from http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/prophecy?q=prophecy

2. The JW leadership fulfil this alleged prophecy.

Of course you have not acknowledged this with your head firmly in the sand.

I believe the same is true of the parable of the ten virgins. Again the message is to be ready in view of the suddenness of Christ's return. However, I do hope that the JWs are not holding ten virgins as prisoners in Brooklyn with oil lamps waiting for Christ's return. But to be consistent with their wrong interpretation of the "faithful and discreet slave" maybe they ought to.

Now if you take prophecy to mean just a general foretelling of the future then to say the parable of the wheat and the tares is eschatological but not prophetic is a contradiction. So I have changed my posting to clarify. I wonder if you will acknowledge the way your leadership have distorted scripture to their own ends.

Of course, if you define prophecy as "forth telling" i.e. speaking God's word then since Jesus spoke God's word then they would count as prophecy but not always prediction.

NB: The noun is "prophecy" the verb is "prophesy".
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 09:13:18 am by lapwing »
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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God Is Good

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #179 on: July 21, 2013, 01:53:07 pm »
The wheat and the tares and the ten virgins parables have an eschatological message but that doesn't make them prophecy. Interesting that JWs haven't appropriated the ten virgins to themselves.

Did the parable translate into reality lapwing? Were there weeds or tares sown among the "wheat"?

Will the harvest take place just as Jesus said? If it does, that makes it a prophesy.

His disciples approached Him and said, “Explain the parable of the weeds in the field to us.”

He replied: “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man;  the field is the world; and the good seed—these are the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,  and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.  Therefore, just as the weeds are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.  The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather from His kingdom everything that causes sin and those guilty of lawlessness.  They will throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s kingdom. Anyone who has ears should listen!"
(Matt 13:36-43)

"Oversowing a wheat field with weeds is a deed of enmity not unknown in the Middle East. “The weeds” referred to are usually believed to be the poisonous bearded darnel (Lolium temulentum), its poisonous properties generally thought to stem from a fungus growing within these seeds. It has an appearance much like that of wheat until maturity, but then it can be readily identified. If eaten, it can result in dizziness and, under certain circumstances, even death. Since the roots of these weeds readily become intertwined with the roots of the wheat, to uproot them before harvest, even if they could be identified, would result in loss of wheat." (Insight Volumes)

The harvest time is almost upon us......the prophesy will come to fulfillment.

applaud.

For the life of me I can not understand how people can assert Jesus said these things just for the heck of it and there is no message in his parables.

To be blunt here, when Jesus was talking about the weeds of the earth, he was referring to people like dawkins and all he blind followers.
His heart goes out to them, but they are choosing their own path to destruction.

I find it rather disturbing that they then blame God for giving them the free will to not choose him.