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anuts

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #180 on: July 21, 2013, 02:17:02 pm »
When Jesus discussed his father which is God, he referenced him as a third person.

This verse says it all.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

And here is another verse where he spoke of  God as a third person

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


So, no, Jesus is not God

there are tons and tons of references where Jesus clearly spoke of God as a third person.

Respectfully, that's not an argument against the Trinity. Trinitarian doctrine also teaches the respective three are also separate and distinct persons.
I almost washed my car today. Therefore, it almost rained.

Whatever happens next; do that.

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God Is Good

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #181 on: July 21, 2013, 02:22:19 pm »
When Jesus discussed his father which is God, he referenced him as a third person.

This verse says it all.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

And here is another verse where he spoke of  God as a third person

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


So, no, Jesus is not God

there are tons and tons of references where Jesus clearly spoke of God as a third person.

Respectfully, that's not an argument against the Trinity. Trinitarian doctrine also teaches the respective three are also separate and distinct persons.

they are three separate beings.
I was arguing about the title of the thread by showing scripture that Jesus is not God  ;)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 02:24:03 pm by God Is Good »

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Asking_A_Question

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #182 on: July 21, 2013, 02:25:26 pm »
No. They are three persons, one Being or essence or nature. You listed Scriptures that show Jesus is not the Father. Orthodox Christians believe that. In fact, in the OP I explicitly said those scriptures don't show that Jesus is not God.

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God Is Good

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #183 on: July 21, 2013, 02:39:28 pm »
No. They are three persons, one Being or essence or nature. You listed Scriptures that show Jesus is not the Father. Orthodox Christians believe that. In fact, in the OP I explicitly said those scriptures don't show that Jesus is not God.

That makes zero sense.

If Jesus refers to God as a third person and explained that not even he knows the day when God will return, how can he then be God?

Plus, in Scripture, he explained to one of the disciples that he would his at his right hand along with him next to God (sorry for paraphrasing, i forget the actual word for word)

But yah, how can he sit next to God if he is God?

How can you ignore the fact Jesus said no man come to the father but through me?

So if Jesus is in fact God, then we cant ever come to God, its becomes a paradox.

We cant come to the father directly but only through Jesus,
Jesus is the father so we cant come to the father directly.
Therefore we cant come to Jesus.

Plus, scripture says over and over that the Holy Spirit is a gift from God, it never says it is God.

Clearly The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings.

Scripture becomes contradictory and a paradox to suggest other wise.

How can you ignore when Jesus spoke to God and looked up to Heaven?

Even in the movie "Oh God, George Burns got it right when he said "so help me, me"

What did Jesus say as he hung on the cross?
"forgive them Father, they know not what they do"

he didnt say
"forgive them me" did he?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 02:41:34 pm by God Is Good »

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veka

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #184 on: July 21, 2013, 04:21:36 pm »
If Jesus refers to God as a third person and explained that not even he knows the day when God will return, how can he then be God?

Because Jesus is both God and man. This is the biblical doctrine of the incarnation (John 1:1, 14; Philippians 2:5-8).

Plus, in Scripture, he explained to one of the disciples that he would his at his right hand along with him next to God (sorry for paraphrasing, i forget the actual word for word)

But yah, how can he sit next to God if he is God?

Could you please find the passage you are referring to?

How can you ignore the fact Jesus said no man come to the father but through me?

So if Jesus is in fact God, then we cant ever come to God, its becomes a paradox.

We cant come to the father directly but only through Jesus,
Jesus is the father so we cant come to the father directly.
Therefore we cant come to Jesus.

Jesus is not the Father.

Plus, scripture says over and over that the Holy Spirit is a gift from God, it never says it is God.

The Bible never says "Jesus existed".

Clearly The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings.

They are separate persons, that's true.

Scripture becomes contradictory and a paradox to suggest other wise.

No, it all becomes clear. No more need to distort God's word.

What did Jesus say as he hung on the cross?
"forgive them Father, they know not what they do"

he didnt say
"forgive them me" did he?

Jesus is not the Father.
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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Jem

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #185 on: July 21, 2013, 04:23:53 pm »
God's law required "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, life for life". (Ex 21:23-25) Equivalency satisfied Jehovah's perfect justice.
Jem,
I have shown several times that this verse is inapplicable in two ways: it talks about the wrong crime (bodily injury, whereas here we are dealing with sacrilege and theft), and it was already superseded by Jesus himself (Matthew 5:38-39).

Not so Biep. The principles of the law are everlasting, just as Jesus said, he came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it. The law of love summed up the whole law because love was the basis of it. (Matt 22:37-40)

The law demonstrated the principle of equivalency as a means to balance the scales of justice....why do we think that justice is symbolized by scales?

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If this is what your "slave" is teaching you, he is not feeding you but maltreating you.  He's definitely not a faithful slave.
Can I ask, who is feeding you Biep? Do you have a global brotherhood that believes the same as you do?

I have complete confidence in the ones appointed by Jesus to feed his sheep. There are no ego driven "personalities" among Jehovah's people....just humble servants who go about doing their assigned work in an organized and efficient manner. We all hold the same beliefs and all preach one message in all nations. You really think that could be done the world over under persecution and opposition by mere men?
Just look at the fractured state of Christendom to answer that question.

Christendom proves every day that she is nothing close to what original Christianity proved itself to be.

Jehovah's people take care of one another as a global brotherhood. We operate as a well oiled machine delivering the good news to a globally unreceptive audience, just as Jesus said we should. (Matt 24:36-39)

When disaster strikes, Jehovah's people are often first on the scene, supporting their brothers, rebuilding their homes and lives and offering real support, both material and spiritual.

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Jesus did not have to be God in order to offer a perfect life for humankind. All he had to be was trustworthy of the assignment.
He had to be infinite to pay the price.

Who said? All he had to be was perfect, sinless, to pay the ransom. Do you not understand the basis of the ransom Biep? It is a fundamental teaching in Christianity, yet how many people really understand how it works?

It's like the kingdom....what is it? How many "Christians" do you know who can tell you what God's kingdom is and can go out into towns and villages searching for "worthy" ones to tell them the good news about it, not just locally, but "in all the inhabited earth"? (Matt 10:11-15; 24:14) There is one Christianity and only one truth. We have to wade through the fake Christians (weeds) to see who fulfills the criteria Jesus gave to identify his true disciples. It isn't by what they say (talk is cheap) it's about what they do. Actions speak louder than words..."doing the will of the Father".

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He had to be God to free from the Law (Romans 7:3).  The covenant was with God, so God had to die to free us from it.  This too I have explained in detail before.
If Jesus weren't God, the old covenants would still be in full force and condemn us, as Colossians 2:14 would have been false.

Again, who said?

It was God who freed his people from the "curse" of the law by sending his son to pay the ransom for them.
Where does it say in the scriptures that Jesus had to be God to do that? He was the means that God used to free Adam's children, He is not the one who gave them the law in the first place. That law was from his Father.
Col 2:14 is simply stating what God did with regard to the law because of Jesus' sacrifice, it cannot be used as proof that he was God.

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A faithful slave would teach you this; a faithless rebel would teach the opposite.

You obviously do not have such a slave if you do not understand the nuts and bolts of the ransom and the requirements of God's justice. These are basic Biblical concepts.
Faithless rebels will keep you deceived. You will also be part of the "many" who are on the wrong road. (Matt 7:12, 14, 21-23)

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Time is running out.  :(
So please, get away from this deceiver posing as a "faithful slave" while you still can!
Ditto  :(
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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God Is Good

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #186 on: July 21, 2013, 04:32:00 pm »
Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God and coming in the clouds of heaven.

this isn't the exact passage I was looking for but never the less, Jesus said  he will be sitting by the power of God, he never ever in the Bible claims to be God.

For those who keep saying he is God, provide scripture that backs that up.

I have provided plenty of scripture where he talks to God as a third person, he does that throughout his walk on earth.

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Curt J. O'Brian

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #187 on: July 21, 2013, 04:32:32 pm »
When Jesus discussed his father which is God, he referenced him as a third person.

This verse says it all.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

And here is another verse where he spoke of  God as a third person

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


So, no, Jesus is not God

there are tons and tons of references where Jesus clearly spoke of God as a third person.

Respectfully, that's not an argument against the Trinity. Trinitarian doctrine also teaches the respective three are also separate and distinct persons.

they are three separate beings.
I was arguing about the title of the thread by showing scripture that Jesus is not God  ;)

But all Trinitarians believe that they're three separate persons, so how does that argue against the thread title?
"Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but upon what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force! But Jesus Christ founded His upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him.”
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God Is Good

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #188 on: July 21, 2013, 04:42:41 pm »
Huh?

How can someone say they agree that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are three different people, then in the next breathe say that they are not?

I am leaving this thread with repeated scripture

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Matthew 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying,  O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

So if you wish to assert Jesus and God are the same person, then who was he talking to and praying to through out his walk on earth?
the only other option is that he was bi-polar and talk to himself as a third person.

We all know Jesus was perfect, so bi-polar is not a valid option.

If you wish to believe otherwise, I cant stop you, and since we are all repeating ourselves.

case closed, I win  ;D

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 04:53:29 pm by God Is Good »

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #189 on: July 21, 2013, 04:48:45 pm »
I would say that for JW laypeople it's because they are told the Trinity is not true and they have a poor translation which tries to drive home that point.

You know these kinds of comments just make me laugh. JW's have no "laypeople". We have no "clergy". That is an idea that Christendom created to give power to people who didn't need it, but wanted it. Christ said all were "brothers" and not to give honorary titles to anyone as if their position or education somehow makes them superior. We have a "faithful slave" who is assigned to "feed" the rest of the "slaves" in the household their "food at the proper time". The slave is not appointed as head over the other slaves but is just assigned to "feed" them. (Matt 24:45-47; John 21:15-17; Matt 23:8-11)

Do you understand that all of Jehovah's Witnesses are Bible students?  We have a body of elders, but they don't necessarily know more than we do. They are shepherds and guides and they present us with instruction from the "slave", but they have no diplomas, making them a special "learned" class. They are at the meetings learning from the slave right alongside us. We are all ordained ministers of the kingdom, Preaching and teaching others just as the first century disciples of Jesus did. You put such great store by your college diplomas....Jesus never had one and neither did the 12. (Acts 4:13) The apostle Paul was the closest thing Jesus had to a scholar, as a former Pharisee educated at the feet of Gamaliel. Paul, however is not one of the 12 foundation stones of Christ's congregation, even though he was used more than any other apostle in the writing of the Christian scriptures.

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As for the more scholarly JW people, I will focus on Greg Stafford who has been called the greatest JW apologist (even though he recently left and told people to get out because of the mind control of the WTBTS [the JWs]). 

You can "focus" on whomever you like. I have never heard of Greg Stafford. And as far as I know, in 40 years I have never heard of any apologist speaking for JW's in the world. We don't need them. The truth speaks for itself when we call on people in all nations with the good news.
He went out from us because he disagreed...big deal. Who is he supposed to be? He is no one we recognize.

As far as we are concerned, getting information from apostates is akin to asking Judas Iscariot how he felt about Jesus Christ.  (1 John 2:19-21)

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He agrees that Thomas calls Jesus Lord and God and his big hang up seems to be a defunct metaphysics.  He reasons that if he can't get his head around how the Trinity or incarnation could be true, then it can't be.

Would you care what Judas Iscariot had to say about anything? That is how we feel about those who have left Jehovah's spiritual family. It is their loss, not ours. He is free to believe whatever he likes. Where is he now? In no man's land with all the other ex JW's who now have to come to terms with the fact that they don't belong anywhere. Once you learn the truth, and you see Christendom for what she is, you cannot unlearn it.
There is simply nowhere to go that is approved by God.

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JWs and those who reject the fact that Jesus is God on this board might disagree and claim that scripture supports them, but if they say as much then I invite them to interact with my exegesis in the OP.
Not that old cry again....seriously, you say "MY exegesis" like you thought it all up by yourself. Did you really? Are you not simply parroting off your own preferred scholars? There is not really an original thought in any of it, is there?

Sorry, but "your" exegesis means nothing to me.  :-\



You took the words right outta my mouth :D
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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anuts

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #190 on: July 21, 2013, 04:49:55 pm »
Huh?

How can someone say they agree that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are three different people, then in the next breathe say that they are not?

I am leaving this thread with one repeated scripture

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

So if you wish to assert Jesus and God are the same person, then who was he talking to through out his walk on earth?
the only other option is that he was bi-polar and talk to himself as a third person.

We all know Jesus was perfect, so bi-polar is not a valid option.

If you wish to believe otherwise, I cant stop you, and since we are all repeating ourselves.

case closed, I win  ;D

You keep misunderstanding the Trinitarian position. It does not say that Jesus is the Father (or the Holy Spirit for that matter). When Jesus spoke about the Father or to the Father, of course He would address it accordingly. They are separate and distinct persons. The Trinity says as much. Here's an illustration that may help with at least understanding the position:

I almost washed my car today. Therefore, it almost rained.

Whatever happens next; do that.

The single greatest contributor to humor is the man who takes himself too serious.

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Jem

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #191 on: July 21, 2013, 04:51:20 pm »
If Jesus refers to God as a third person and explained that not even he knows the day when God will return, how can he then be God?

Because Jesus is both God and man. This is the biblical doctrine of the incarnation (John 1:1, 14; Philippians 2:5-8).

Neither of those scriptures suggests that there is a trinity. John 1:1 has been explained very clearly and it doesn't speak about three person in one godhead anyway. And Phil 2:5-8 is saying that Jesus never claimed equality with his Father.

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
(NASB)

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Plus, in Scripture, he explained to one of the disciples that he would his at his right hand along with him next to God (sorry for paraphrasing, i forget the actual word for word)

But yah, how can he sit next to God if he is God?

Could you please find the passage you are referring to?

The mother of sons of Zebedee asked for positions in the kingdom for her sons....one at his right and one at his left.....

"He said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” (Matt 20:23)

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How can you ignore the fact Jesus said no man come to the father but through me?

So if Jesus is in fact God, then we cant ever come to God, its becomes a paradox.

We cant come to the father directly but only through Jesus,
Jesus is the father so we cant come to the father directly.
Therefore we cant come to Jesus.

Jesus is not the Father.


True...and he isn't the Almighty either. Show us the trinity in scripture.

Show us "God the son" or "God the Holy Spirit"...show us where "theos" is ever used with reference to the holy spirit? There is no trinity.

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Plus, scripture says over and over that the Holy Spirit is a gift from God, it never says it is God.

The Bible never says "Jesus existed".
What? ???

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Scripture becomes contradictory and a paradox to suggest other wise.

No, it all becomes clear. No more need to distort God's word.

I doubt that it could become more distorted than to completely change the concept of who God is!  :-[

Christendom worships a different God to the one Jesus himself worshiped. (Luke 4:8; Rev 3:12)  :(
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 04:54:50 pm by Jem »
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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God Is Good

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #192 on: July 21, 2013, 04:54:42 pm »
Huh?

How can someone say they agree that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are three different people, then in the next breathe say that they are not?

I am leaving this thread with one repeated scripture

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

So if you wish to assert Jesus and God are the same person, then who was he talking to through out his walk on earth?
the only other option is that he was bi-polar and talk to himself as a third person.

We all know Jesus was perfect, so bi-polar is not a valid option.

If you wish to believe otherwise, I cant stop you, and since we are all repeating ourselves.

case closed, I win  ;D

You keep misunderstanding the Trinitarian position. It does not say that Jesus is the Father (or the Holy Spirit for that matter). When Jesus spoke about the Father or to the Father, of course He would address it accordingly. They are separate and distinct persons. The Trinity says as much. Here's an illustration that may help with at least understanding the position:



big hole in that theory

Matthew 26:39
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Yah, I know I said I was done here, but this must be said.

We dont take out scripture that does not fit with our belief system, that is not how it works.

Matthew clear said GOD gave us his ONLY son.
there was no "but his son was him" "but the father is not God"

Point blank,
God gave us his only son and his son spoke to his father as a third person.

there is no Father Son Holy Spirit and God too, scripture does not teach that.
there is only three.

The Father (God) the Holy Spirit(Gods Gift) and Jesus(Gods Son)

that is what scripture teaches and we go by Gods word, not mans word.

Amen
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 05:01:19 pm by God Is Good »

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #193 on: July 21, 2013, 04:57:52 pm »
Hmm. A big problem that our brothers seem to be having is that they just don't really understand the Trinity at all. And because they are convinced beforehand that it is heretical, they really have no care to try and first understand. But I think that this problem is easy to fix, once we're willing.

Now I would never describe myself as a Trinitarian because I truly believe that God is much more than that, and that the Trinity is just a human thought experiment to try and conceptualize Him. But I do find it plainly evident that Jesus is God, and that Trinitarianism is a much more coherent understanding than Unitarianism.

I mean seriously seeing things like "1+1+1=3 not 1 God" or something along those lines is very discouraging. It's like a blatant declaration of one's ignorance on the subject. Before we argue, we should really come to understand one another.

We are brothers in Christ. Let's stop these accusations of heresy and actually work towards fixing the problem. If there is one thing I find annoying, it is that sometimes we care more about attacking each other than about building each other up. This is an apologist forum yes, but we are the Church first. We can act like it, even on very serious issues such as this one.


"What fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? [W]hat harmony is there between Christ and Be′li‧al?" - 2 Corinthians 6:14,15


This is why we who sustain the plenitude of God's word, The Bible, will always clash with those who seek to pervert it with their Trinitarian philosophies.


"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Jem

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #194 on: July 21, 2013, 05:00:11 pm »
Huh?

How can someone say they agree that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are three different people, then in the next breathe say that they are not?

I am leaving this thread with one repeated scripture

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

So if you wish to assert Jesus and God are the same person, then who was he talking to through out his walk on earth?
the only other option is that he was bi-polar and talk to himself as a third person.

We all know Jesus was perfect, so bi-polar is not a valid option.

If you wish to believe otherwise, I cant stop you, and since we are all repeating ourselves.

case closed, I win  ;D

You keep misunderstanding the Trinitarian position. It does not say that Jesus is the Father (or the Holy Spirit for that matter). When Jesus spoke about the Father or to the Father, of course He would address it accordingly. They are separate and distinct persons. The Trinity says as much. Here's an illustration that may help with at least understanding the position:



We who know what the Bible teaches (as opposed to what Christendom teaches) understand that the trinity is an invented nonsense. It is a blasphemous teaching that is insulting to Jesus as Jehovah's most trusted and faithful servant and to the Most High God who has no equal.

Can you say that this illustration you posted is from the Bible, or is this the same as evolution portraying early man as part ape when they have no such evidence? Christendom gave you this concept, NOT the Bible...do you understand this?  ???
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org