General Discussion

Choose Your Own Topic

Read 92992 times

Snoochies

  • ***
  • 4143 Posts
  • Seek, knock, ask
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #210 on: July 21, 2013, 06:47:13 pm »
Just a question in regards to God before creation took place. Taking the JW doctrine, God (Jehovah) (Father) is alone God. God prior to creation existed by himself. Not sure if you believe Angels to be eternal, correct me if I'm wrong here. If God in his essence was alone and God is 'love', what does he love, himself?

If we are made in Gods image, then wouldn't our nature be to love ourselves first? I guess in todays society that is true, but in general we desire relationship first which tells me that if we are created in Gods image, God then would also require relationship, but prior to any creation at all, how does God fulfil this if he were alone, did he just love himself?
"God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear." Psalm 46:1-2

* Forum members please note:- Just because I ask you lots of questions, this does not mean I know something better. I am merely asking to seek clarification and arrive at truth the best I can

1

God Is Good

  • ***
  • 1599 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #211 on: July 21, 2013, 06:49:13 pm »
@Curt J. O'Brian

So why they arguing with me if they agree with me and why are they saying I am calling God a liar?

plus, did you not say Jesus is God, but they are three separate beings in the same sentence you quoted to me?

who is attacking who?  :-\

So, I am going nuts, no one is debating me at all?
wow Curt


2

veka

  • ***
  • 1123 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #212 on: July 21, 2013, 06:49:26 pm »
Exactly right, Snoochies. God cannot be a person.
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

3

Jem

  • ***
  • 4509 Posts
  • Avid JW Bible Student
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #213 on: July 21, 2013, 06:52:41 pm »
You are rejecting and resisting God's word. That is so sad. :(

Repent and believe in the testimony of the Bible. Forsake those man-made doctrines.

veka, the word of God was corrupted a very long time ago.


If I may, Jehovah God's word remains as true today as it was when first recorded. I think what you're trying to communicate is that many have gnarled and contorted God's teachings or that many have tried to corrupt God's Word with their specious philosophies, yes? :)

Sorry,  :-[  yes that is what I meant. They have taken God's word and forced erroneous teachings to fit it.

If one had no notion of a trinity before reading the Bible, they would not find it explicitly taught in the Bible...no hellfire...no immortal soul....no cross. All were added later as apostasy took a foothold and the weeds took over the field, just as Jesus said.
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

4

God Is Good

  • ***
  • 1599 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #214 on: July 21, 2013, 06:59:49 pm »
Exactly right, Snoochies. God cannot be a person.

I am seriously confused now.

Did you not say Jesus is God?
Jesus was a living person.

I cant go back and read every single post all over again.

if I am debating people agreeing with me, I am sorry, I am totally lost now.

recap.

The Father(God) Jesus(Gods Son) The Holy Ghost(Gods Gift)

Three separate beings, there is no fourth being which are all of them as one.

5

Maxximiliann

  • ***
  • 1311 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #215 on: July 21, 2013, 07:00:55 pm »

You are the one lying before God.


What lie are you accusing me of proclaiming?
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

6

Curt J. O'Brian

  • ***
  • 2412 Posts
  • Christian apologist
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #216 on: July 21, 2013, 07:01:32 pm »
@Curt J. O'Brian

So why they arguing with me if they agree with me and why are they saying I am calling God a liar?

plus, did you not say Jesus is God, but they are three separate beings in the same sentence you quoted to me?

who is attacking who?  :-\

So, I am going nuts, no one is debating me at all?
wow Curt

No, God the Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit are three persons in one being. Can you not imagine three minds trapped in one body? It happens all of the time in T.V. shows and movies lol, it's not beyond human imagination.

I think you're running into arguments based on what you're trying to say, not what you're saying. What you're saying is compatible with the Trinity, but you're trying to say the Trinity is false, and that's why people are arguing with you lol.
"Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but upon what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force! But Jesus Christ founded His upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him.”
–Napoleon Bonaparte I

7

Maxximiliann

  • ***
  • 1311 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #217 on: July 21, 2013, 07:07:22 pm »
We say they're three persons, and one being. God is one being, who is three persons. You hand is one hand, with five fingers.


Argumentum per falsam analogiam. The Athanasian Creed clearly states, "the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God." In other words, "your index finger is your hand, your middle finger is your hand and your ring finger is your hand."


If anything, your analogy disproves the Athanasian Creed; it reveals just how nonsensical it truly is.



1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

8

God Is Good

  • ***
  • 1599 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #218 on: July 21, 2013, 07:12:19 pm »
@Curt J. O'Brian

Oh my, first you say I am fighting people that agree with me, and now you say they are fighting with me because they disagree with me.  :-\

which is it bro?

Dude, I have respect for you, but to compare God to a made up TV show?

God isnt forsay a mind at all.
Jesus wasa living person with a mind though

The Holy Ghost is a gift from God, its not a mind either.
I dont have an extra mind inside me.

Jesus is sitting at Gods right hand, he is not inside God.
No where does it say that in the Bible, but it does say where Jesus explained he is sitting at Gods right hand.

No where does Jesus say is is God, he clearly asserts it 8926745478265 times that he is Gods son and the the Holy Ghost is Gods gift.

No one has shown one scripture that supports what they say, I have refuted many that have tried.
No one has even attempted to refute the scripture I posted.

But you keep insisting I am wrong and you are right.

You have to show where the scripture I posted is wrong, not just assert it, k?

If I am wrong, prove it, I desire the truth too you know.
But I am not accepting opinions as truth, prove the scripture I posted is incorrect.

9

Jem

  • ***
  • 4509 Posts
  • Avid JW Bible Student
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #219 on: July 21, 2013, 07:22:58 pm »
Just a question in regards to God before creation took place. Taking the JW doctrine, God (Jehovah) (Father) is alone God. God prior to creation existed by himself. Not sure if you believe Angels to be eternal, correct me if I'm wrong here. If God in his essence was alone and God is 'love', what does he love, himself?

Trying to understand an eternal God whose cardinal quality is love, and who at some point in his perfect existence decided to become a creator is not something that finite mortal creatures can really understand IMO. There is more that we don't know about Jehovah in our imperfection than what we do know for sure from what he reveals about himself in his word.
There was so much more that Jesus said and did that is not recorded, that would be very interesting to know....one day, perhaps we will...? or not? (John 21:25)

Quote
If we are made in Gods image, then wouldn't our nature be to love ourselves first? I guess in todays society that is true, but in general we desire relationship first which tells me that if we are created in Gods image, God then would also require relationship, but prior to any creation at all, how does God fulfil this if he were alone, did he just love himself?

That is an interesting question Snooch. We know that the Word was "with" his Father "in the beginning"
I am certain that the relationship that Jehovah had with his "only begotten son" was something that was forged over eons of time before the rest of creation was brought into existence.

The angels are not eternal beings; they are beings who enjoy everlasting life, just as God intended for man in the beginning.
Angels are not immortal (cannot die) and neither are we? Theirs and our continued existence depends upon our obedience to our Creator. All rebels, both human and angelic will end up in the "lake of fire"....eternal destruction. (Matt 25:41) Fire symbolizes total destruction.

Love is a quality that we can have regardless of whether it is exhibited or expressed toward others or not. Do we really understand "how" we are 'made in God's image'? We do so imperfectly at present, but when we are restored to perfection, who knows what will be revealed to us about our awesome Creator?

Does the Creator love himself? What an odd question.....one would have to define both "love" and "God" to answer that.  :P
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

10

Curt J. O'Brian

  • ***
  • 2412 Posts
  • Christian apologist
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #220 on: July 21, 2013, 07:23:27 pm »
Oh my, first you say I am fighting people that agree with me, and now you say they are fighting with me because they disagree with me.  :-\

No lol, I'm saying you're both fighting each other.

Quote
Dude, I have respect for you, but to compare God to a made up TV show?

Is that somehow wrong? If a made up TV show portrayed God, could I not say that God in this T.V. show is like God in real life? I don't see anything wrong with comparing God to a T.V. show.

Quote
God isnt forsay a mind at all.
Jesus wasa living person with a mind though

What do you mean he isn't forsay a mind?

Quote
The Holy Ghost is a gift from God, its not a mind either.

This gift from God is referred to as a "he" and is called God, so...

Quote
Jesus is sitting at Gods right hand, he is not inside God.
No where does it say that in the Bible, but it does say where Jesus explained he is sitting at Gods right hand.

Did you read the original post, though? AAQ gives multiple verses that say Jesus is God.

Quote
No where does Jesus say is is God, he clearly asserts it 8926745478265 times that he is Gods son and the the Holy Ghost is Gods gift.

Right, but Trinitarians also believe he's the son of God, and that the Holy Spirit is a gift, so neither of those are objections to the Trinity.

Quote
No one has shown one scripture that supports what they say, I have refuted many that have tried.
No one has even attempted to refute the scripture I posted.

If you think I'm not willing to provide scripture in support of the Trinity, read the second post here. Also, read AAQ's first post in this thread where he goes over many.

What scriptures, in particular, do you feel pose a challenge to the Trinitarian view? Give me what you think are the best and I'll respond to them.
"Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but upon what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force! But Jesus Christ founded His upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him.”
–Napoleon Bonaparte I

11

God Is Good

  • ***
  • 1599 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #221 on: July 21, 2013, 07:29:27 pm »
I posted many scriptures in the last two pages.
Plus I have successfully refuted ones posted at me and no one has even tried to refute what I said.

I am slowly behaving just like most everyone else here, ignore everything and just ramble on with my own conclusions and I dont like that so its time for me to leave for a while.

its one thing that atheists do it, but now my fellow Christians are doing it too.

mind showing me where the Bible it refers to the Holy Spirit as a "he" and as being "God" personally?

edit
About TV, I go by what Jesus taught, not by what TV says Jesus taught.

Tv almost ever takes real life and portray it exactly, they alter much of it so its more dramatic and appealing, the truth to them isn't even relevant.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 07:37:30 pm by God Is Good »

12

lapwing

  • ****
  • 8618 Posts
    • View Profile
    • Not my website but explains my choice of name and avatar
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #222 on: July 21, 2013, 10:37:06 pm »
Quote from: GodisGood
The King James version is the only version translated word for word and not twisted.
So theopneustos (1 word) in 2 Tim 3:16
KJV: "given by inspiration of God" 5 words
NIV: "God-breathed" 1 word

It's better to use a range of versions rather than put all your eggs in one basket. The issue is certainly not as clear cut as you think.  What do you think the word "charger" means? (Mk 6:25 KJV)

Quote from: Maxximilian
A better question is, why do you insist on relying on Bible versions that have been disparaged as poor translations of the original Bible languages? These mendaciously render יְהוָ֑ה as "LORD" when the Hebrew word for "Lord" is אדני – "Adonai".
This is explained in the NIV Preface. (The KJV also uses LORD for הוָ֑ה )

Quote from: NIV_preface
In regard to the divine name YHWH, commonly referred to as the Tetragrammaton, the translators adopted the device used in most English versions of rendering that name as “LORD” in capital letters to distinguish it from Adonai, another Hebrew word rendered “Lord” for which small letters are used. Wherever the two names stand together in the Old Testament as a compound name of God, they are rendered “Sovereign LORD.”


For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

13

Curt J. O'Brian

  • ***
  • 2412 Posts
  • Christian apologist
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #223 on: July 21, 2013, 10:54:48 pm »
The King James version is the only version translated word for word and not twisted.

I saw this quoted by Lapwing and wanted to address it. The KJV actually is a very literally correct translation, which is good. But, the NASB is actually more accurate that the KJV. The KJV Vs. NASB debate primarily comes down to:

NASB: More literally correct, uses Alexandrian manuscripts.
KJV: Less literally correct, uses Byzantine manuscripts.

You'll find that the NASB and KJV are very similar, except the NASB is a bit more readable for a modern person (it doesn't use the older style of English). I think both are good bibles, but I find the NASB preferable as it's more accurate in general than the KJV.

You may want to research this yourself, though, to see.
"Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but upon what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force! But Jesus Christ founded His upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him.”
–Napoleon Bonaparte I

14

God Is Good

  • ***
  • 1599 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #224 on: July 21, 2013, 11:06:04 pm »
The King James version is the only version translated word for word and not twisted.

I saw this quoted by Lapwing and wanted to address it. The KJV actually is a very literally correct translation, which is good. But, the NASB is actually more accurate that the KJV. The KJV Vs. NASB debate primarily comes down to:

NASB: More literally correct, uses Alexandrian manuscripts.
KJV: Less literally correct, uses Byzantine manuscripts.

You'll find that the NASB and KJV are very similar, except the NASB is a bit more readable for a modern person (it doesn't use the older style of English). I think both are good bibles, but I find the NASB preferable as it's more accurate in general than the KJV.

You may want to research this yourself, though, to see.

IDK, I can read the KJV very well, so its not up to me to compare them.

However I will warn what was taught to me from a 14 yr old kid, when I thought my NIV was all that and then some with its footnotes.

He showed me places where scripture was altered by one word and it completely changed the whole meaning of the message.

I also was taught that the KJV is a complete translation and zero messages are altered.
English is my only language so I can only assume that is true.

-------------
So theopneustos (1 word) in 2 Tim 3:16
KJV: "given by inspiration of God" 5 words
NIV: "God-breathed" 1 word

two completely different translations.