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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #225 on: July 21, 2013, 11:11:38 pm »

Quote from: NIV_preface
In regard to the divine name YHWH, commonly referred to as the Tetragrammaton, the translators adopted the device used in most English versions of rendering that name as “LORD” in capital letters to distinguish it from Adonai, another Hebrew word rendered “Lord” for which small letters are used. Wherever the two names stand together in the Old Testament as a compound name of God, they are rendered “Sovereign LORD.”

Thank you for that non-explanation. It's especially vacuous given that, the world over, God's name appears in a multitude of Bible editions. African, Asian, American and Pacific-island language versions of the Scriptures use the name Jehovah liberally, so that readers can clearly see the difference between the true God and the false ones. The name has appeared, too, in versions in European languages.

Here's how it's rendered in many other languages -
  • Arabic - Yahwa
  • Awabakal - Yehóa
  • Bugotu - Jihova
  • Cantonese - Yehwowah
  • Danish - Jehova
  • Dutch - Jehovah
  • Efik - Jehovah
  • Fijian - Jiova
  • Finnish - Jehova
  • French - Jéhovah
  • Futuna - Ihova
  • German – Jehova
  • Greek - Iechová
  • Hungarian – Jehova
  • Igbo - Jehova
  • Italian - Geova
  • Japanese - Ehoba
  • Maori - Ihowa
  • Motu - Iehova
  • Mwala-Malu - Jihova
  • Narrinyeri – Jehovah
  • Nembe - Jihova
  • Petats - Jihouva
  • Polish - Jehowa
  • Portuguese - Jeová
  • Romanian – Iehova
  • Samoan - Ieova
  • Sotho - Jehova
  • Spanish - Jehová
  • Swahili - Yehova
  • Swedish - Jehova
  • Tahitian – Iehova
  • Tagalog - Jehova
  • Tongan - Jihova
  • Venda - Yehova
  • Xhosa - uYehova
  • Yoruba - Jehofah
  • Zulu - uJehova
In light of these salient facts, the NIV's choice to obscure God's personal name makes it that just more repugnant.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 11:40:15 pm by Maxximiliann »
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

1

lapwing

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #226 on: July 22, 2013, 03:40:32 am »
I'm not sure what giving the transliteration of Jehovah into different languages proves or is meant to prove.
The NIV preface tells you that whenever יְהוָ֞ה is encountered it is rendered as LORD. The pronunciation (and so transliteration spelling) of the tetragrammaton is not known.

So let's take a verse like Ex 4:2 which follows closely after Ex 3:14
See http://biblehub.com/exodus/4-2.htm
The NIV, NLT, ESV, NASB, KJV (+2000 and US KJV), Holman, ISV, NET, God's Word, ERV and Webster's
all render it as LORD.
ASV, Darby, WEB and YLT render it as Yahweh or Jehovah.
So I fail to understand why you are singling out the NIV for this criticism.
Surely one should think that each version has its good and bad points but they are all of a good standard - certainly good enough to follow Christ as a disciple.
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Biep

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #227 on: July 22, 2013, 06:09:40 am »
Not so Biep. The principles of the law are everlasting, just as Jesus said, he came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it.
That is correct, but the rules as given were not the perfect version of the Law.  It was watered down because of the hardness of the hearts of the Jews (Matthew 19:8).  Likewise, revenge was not totally forbidden, but limited not to exceed the damage done.  Jesus gives the perfect version of the Law - the one He came to fulfil.
Quote
The law of love summed up the whole law because love was the basis of it. (Matt 22:37-40)
Indeed.  And perfect love implies zero revenge.
Quote
The law demonstrated the principle of equivalency as a means to balance the scales of justice....why do we think that justice is symbolized by scales?
Because the pagan Romans invented that idea.  What language, do you think, gave us the word 'equity'?

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Can I ask, who is feeding you Biep? Do you have a global brotherhood that believes the same as you do?
The Bible is, through the Holy Spirit and secondarily through many sisters and brothers God gave me.  I try to be a faithful slave to them as they are to me, as God commanded us.  After all, only together we can understand the fullness of God's amazing love (Ephesians 3:18)
The parable of the faithful slave is just that - a parable.  Parables apply generically.  Each of us must be a wise virgin, each of us a field with good earth, each of us wheat, not tare, each of us the merchant who gladly fives up everything for the pearl.
Defanging the parable of the faithful slave would be as wrong as declaring that some specific person or group were the merchant.

As I have written before, I am not a member of any church, but all over the world one finds sincere Bible students which the Holy Spirit indicates as siblings and who are willing to research, to retract wrong beliefs and adopt new ones when the Word convinces them of the truth.

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You really think that could be done the world over under persecution and opposition by mere men?
No, I am afraid it goes beyond 'mere men'.

Quote
Just look at the fractured state of Christendom to answer that question.
Sorry, but 'Christendom' is nothing but a grab bag of good, bad and ugly.  It is no useful category, only useful for guilt by association.  As I said, look at e.g. the Mennonites.  Is their blazon tainted because some post-modern church preaches that God is only a nice feeling in our hearts?
If 'Christendom' includes all those who believe in the truth of the NT, then it includes the JW.  If it refers to Trinitarians - would you claim that Arians are not divided?

Quote
We operate as a well oiled machine delivering the good news to a globally unreceptive audience, just as Jesus said we should. (Matt 24:36-39)
But - I just looked around a bit on the Internet - not a very effective one, it seems.  I think I saw that Charismatic churches are growing faster with less effort.

Quote
When disaster strikes, Jehovah's people are often first on the scene, supporting their brothers, rebuilding their homes and lives and offering real support, both material and spiritual.
Matthew 5:46.  It is the next step that would prove read Christian love.

Quote from: Biep
He had to be infinite to pay the price.
Quote
Who said?
The Law for theft, which Jesus came to fulfil, and verses such as Matthew 16:25 that show that creation as a whole is not sufficient price.

Where does it say Jesus had to pay the life of Adam?

Quote
Do you not understand the basis of the ransom Biep? It is a fundamental teaching in Christianity, yet how many people really understand how it works?
I like to think I do.  The ransom for the life of a criminal equals whatever the other party requests (e.g. Exodus 21:30).  But Jesus was, of course, a Ransom in several ways.

Quote
It's like the kingdom....what is it?
Those who are reborn know, those who aren't will never know until it is too late.

Quote from: Biep
He had to be God to free from the Law (Romans 7:3).  The covenant was with God, so God had to die to free us from it.  This too I have explained in detail before.
If Jesus weren't God, the old covenants would still be in full force and condemn us, as Colossians 2:14 would have been false.
Quote
Again, who said?
See the verse reference I gave (and its context).  See also this post.

Quote
It was God who freed his people from the "curse" of the law by sending his son to pay the ransom for them.
Which would make Him a moral monster.  He could have paid the price Himself, yet abused the love of a (finite, no less) innocent third person.  Morally, that would put Jesus way above the Father.
It would be like accepting that ones child jumps in front of one to receive a blow my enemy wants to deal me - only then if I were infinitely powerful, and my son weren't.

Quote
Faithless rebels will keep you deceived.
Until one puts God and His Word above any other authority, and uses it to test everything and only keep the good.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 08:30:36 am by Biep »
-- Biep
I tend to post and run, but always hope to return eventually.  Don't hold your breath, though.

I have very little energy at the moment, so don't expect much of me right now.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #228 on: July 22, 2013, 10:37:26 am »
I'm not sure what giving the transliteration of Jehovah into different languages proves or is meant to prove.
It shows how other Bible editors are more honest than those of the NIV and all others who fraudulently render יְהוָ֞ה as "LORD" instead of "Jehovah."


Quote
The pronunciation (and so transliteration spelling) of the tetragrammaton is not known.
The same can be argued for all the names we read in the Bible. Do you, for instance, know how Jesus' family and friends addressed him in day-to-day conversation while he was growing up in Nazareth? (It certainly wasn't "Jesus".)


Quote
they are all of a good standard
Don't be so jejune. False religion is big business. This is certainly ample motive for Bible editors to contort the Bible's original text.
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #229 on: July 22, 2013, 10:40:36 am »
I am not a member of any church

"24 And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near." - Hebrews 10:24,25




"If any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. 2 The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3 not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 4 a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; 5 (if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God’s congregation?) 6 not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil. 7 Moreover, he should also have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the Devil." - 2 Timothy 3:1-7




"8 Ministerial servants should likewise be serious, not double-tongued, not giving themselves to a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, 9 holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience.


10 Also, let these be tested as to fitness first, then let them serve as ministers, as they are free from accusation. 12 Let ministerial servants be husbands of one wife, presiding in a fine manner over children and their own households. 13 For the men who minister in a fine manner are acquiring for themselves a fine standing and great freeness of speech in the faith in connection with Christ Jesus." - 1 Timothy 3:8-10, 12,13




"11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”" - 1 Corinthians 5:11-13




A central body composed of the Apostles and Elders established doctrine for the rest of the Christians to follow - Acts 15






From all of the above, any sincere, honest-hearted one can see that -


1. The first century Christians were **organized** into congregations where individuals shared together in their worship. Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamon, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea are the names of just a few mentioned in the Bible.


2. **A system** existed to appoint those who would take the lead in the congregation.


3. **A system** was also in place to appoint those who would assist those taking the lead in the congregation.


4. **A system** was in place to discipline - even expel from the congregation - those who unrepentantly practiced serious sin.


What makes you think this is no longer true today?
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

5

lapwing

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #230 on: July 22, 2013, 11:50:51 am »
Quote from: Maximilian
It shows how other Bible editors ...
What other Bibles? It's perfectly possible to have a transliteration of "Jehovah" without there being a Bible version in that language that uses it. Unless your intention is just to waste my time, and possibly other peoples' time as well, do not respond on this until you can cite the Bible versions in these languages that use these transliterations, with evidence i.e. websites where the Bible versions can be read online.
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

6

Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #231 on: July 22, 2013, 12:57:35 pm »
Quote from: Maximilian
It shows how other Bible editors ...
What other Bibles? It's perfectly possible to have a transliteration of "Jehovah" without there being a Bible version in that language that uses it. Unless your intention is just to waste my time, and possibly other peoples' time as well, do not respond on this until you can cite the Bible versions in these languages that use these transliterations, with evidence i.e. websites where the Bible versions can be read online.


Happily! What other languages do you speak?


Btw, is your Google broken?
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

7

lapwing

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #232 on: July 22, 2013, 01:20:37 pm »
You're the one who is trying to establish a point. It's up to you to prove it. Too much like hard work for you?
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

8

Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #233 on: July 22, 2013, 02:04:28 pm »
Quote
"Here is why we did not: You are right that Jehovah is a distinctive name for God and ideally we should have used it. But we put 2 1/4 million dollars into this translation and a sure way of throwing that down the drain is to translate, for example, Psalm 23 as, 'Yahweh is my shepherd.' Immediately, we would have translated for nothing. Nobody would have used it. Oh, maybe you and a handful [of] others. But a Christian has to be also wise and practical. We are the victims of 350 years of the King James tradition. It is far better to get two million to read it-that is how many have bought it to date-and to follow the King James, than to have two thousand buy it and have the correct translation of Yahweh. . . . It was a hard decision, and many of our translators agree with you."
-  Edwin H. Palmer, Th.D., Executive Secretary for the NIV's committee

Like I've said, there's big money in false religion ...
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 02:10:13 pm by Maxximiliann »
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

9

Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #234 on: July 22, 2013, 02:07:10 pm »
You're the one who is trying to establish a point. It's up to you to prove it. Too much like hard work for you?


Happily! What languages do you speak?
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

10

lapwing

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #235 on: July 22, 2013, 02:49:31 pm »
You've provided the transliterations all I would need to do would be to key on them.
Of course you could provide the biblical references where the transliterated versions of "Jehovah" appear so what's stopping you?
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

11

Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #236 on: July 22, 2013, 04:08:42 pm »
You've provided the transliterations all I would need to do would be to key on them.
Of course you could provide the biblical references where the transliterated versions of "Jehovah" appear so what's stopping you?



שמות 6:3 Hebrew OT: BHS (Consonants & Vowels)
................................................. ...............................
וָאֵרָא אֶל־אַבְרָהָם אֶל־יִצְחָק וְאֶל־יַעֲקֹב בְּאֵל שַׁדָּי וּשְׁמִי יְהוָה לֹא נֹודַעְתִּי לָהֶם׃
................................................. ...............................
שמות 6:3 Hebrew OT: BHS (Consonants Only)
................................................. ...............................
וארא אל־אברהם אל־יצחק ואל־יעקב באל שדי ושמי יהוה לא נודעתי להם׃
................................................. ...............................
שמות 6:3 Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad Codex
................................................. ...............................
וָאֵרָ֗א אֶל־אַבְרָהָ֛ם אֶל־יִצְחָ֥ק וְאֶֽל־יַעֲקֹ֖ב בְּאֵ֣ל שַׁדָּ֑י וּשְׁמִ֣י יְהוָ֔ה לֹ֥א נֹודַ֖עְתִּי לָהֶֽם׃
................................................. ...............................
שמות 6:3 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
................................................. ...............................
וארא אל־אברהם אל־יצחק ואל־יעקב באל שדי ושמי יהוה לא נודעתי להם׃
................................................. ...............................
שמות 6:3 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants & Vowels)
................................................. ...............................
וָאֵרָא אֶל־אַבְרָהָם אֶל־יִצְחָק וְאֶל־יַעֲקֹב בְּאֵל שַׁדָּי וּשְׁמִי יְהוָה לֹא נֹודַעְתִּי לָהֶם׃
................................................. ...............................
שמות 6:3 Hebrew OT: Aleppo Codex
................................................. ...............................
ג וארא אל אברהם אל יצחק ואל יעקב--באל שדי ושמי יהוה לא נודעתי להם
................................................. ...............................
שמות 6:3 Hebrew Bible
................................................. ...............................
וארא אל אברהם אל יצחק ואל יעקב באל שדי ושמי יהוה לא נודעתי להם׃


King James Bible
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.


American King James Version
And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.


American Standard Version
and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; but by my name Jehovah I was not known to them.


Darby Bible Translation
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as the Almighty ùGod; but by my name Jehovah I was not made known to them.


English Revised Version
and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH I was not known to them.


Webster's Bible Translation
And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.


Young's Literal Translation
and I appear unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; as to My name Jehovah, I have not been known to them;


Exode 6:3 French: Darby
................................................. ...............................
Je suis apparu à Abraham, à Isaac, et à Jacob, comme le *Dieu Tout-puissant; mais je n'ai pas été connu d'eux par mon nom d'Éternel (Jéhovah).


2 Mose 6:3 German: Elberfelder (1871)
................................................. ...............................
Und ich bin Abraham, Isaak und Jakob erschienen als Gott, (El) der Allmächtige; aber mit meinem Namen Jehova habe ich mich ihnen nicht kundgegeben.


2 Mózes 6:3 Hungarian: Karoli
................................................. ...............................
Ábrahámnak, Izsáknak és Jákóbnak úgy jelentem meg mint mindenható Isten, de az én Jehova nevemen nem voltam elõttük ismeretes.


Exodus 6:3 Maori
................................................. ...............................
I oku putanga ia ki a Aperahama, ki a Ihaka, ki a Hakopa, ko te Atua Kaha Rawa ahau, otiia kihai ratou i mohio ki ahau, ko IHOWA toku ingoa.


Polish: Biblia Gdanska
................................................. ...............................
Którym się ukazał Abrahamowi, Izaakowi i Jakóbowi w tem imieniu, żem Bóg Wszechmogący; ale w imieniu mojem, Jehowa, nie jestem poznany od nich.




Éxodo 6:3 Portugese Bible
................................................. ...............................
Apareci a Abraão, a Isaque e a Jacó, como o Deus Todo-Poderoso; mas pelo meu nome Jeová, não lhes fui conhecido.


Éxodo 6:3 Spanish: Reina Valera (1909)
................................................. ...............................
Y aparecí á Abraham, á Isaac y á Jacob bajo el nombre de Dios Omnipotente, mas en mi nombre JEHOVA no me notifiqué á ellos.


Éxodo 6:3 Spanish: Modern
................................................. ...............................
Yo me aparecí a Abraham, a Isaac y a Jacob como Dios Todopoderoso; pero con mi nombre Jehovah no me di a conocer a ellos.




Exodus 6:3 Tagalog: Ang Dating Biblia (1905)
................................................. ...............................
At ako'y napakita kay Abraham, kay Isaac, at kay Jacob na Dios na Makapangyarihan sa lahat; nguni't sa pamamagitan ng aking pangalang Jehova, noon ay hindi ako napakilala sa kanila.


出埃及記 6:3
Chinese Union Version Modern Punctuation (Traditional) (CUVMPT)
3 我從前向亞伯拉罕、以撒、雅各顯現為全能的神,至於我名耶和華,他們未曾知道。


Smith & Van Dyke, 1865
Exodus 6:3
3 وانا ظهرت لابراهيم واسحق ويعقوب باني الاله القادر على كل شيء. واما باسمي يهوه فلم أعرف عندهم.


Korean Bible
Exodus 6:3
3내가 아브라함과 이삭과 야곱에게 전능의 하나님으로 나타났으나 나의 이름을 여호와로는 그들에게 알리지 아니하였고




Starting to get the idea? :)

1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

12

Jem

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #237 on: July 22, 2013, 07:38:10 pm »
Not so Biep. The principles of the law are everlasting, just as Jesus said, he came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it.
That is correct, but the rules as given were not the perfect version of the Law.  It was watered down because of the hardness of the hearts of the Jews (Matthew 19:8).

Reading that verse in context, I do believe that Jesus was just singling out the law on marriage and divorce in response to the question asked by the Pharisees. He was not speaking about the law generally. There was nothing imperfect about God's law...that was the whole point of giving a perfect law to imperfect people. It was a reminder to all of God's people that they could never keep it....that Messiah's sacrifice was the only thing that would gain God's forgiveness and fulfill the law.

Quote
Likewise, revenge was not totally forbidden, but limited not to exceed the damage done.  Jesus gives the perfect version of the Law - the one He came to fulfil.
The law was never imperfect...it was the oral traditions of the Pharisees that were in error. This is what Jesus was making distinctions with; the erroneous traditions had replaced the written law and had been taught to the people as God's word.

Quote
Quote
The law of love summed up the whole law because love was the basis of it. (Matt 22:37-40)
Indeed.  And perfect love implies zero revenge.
Is God's love imperfect?

"Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah. (Rom 12:17-19, Deut 32:35)

"For we know him that said: “Vengeance is mine; I will recompense”; and again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God" (Heb 10:30, 31)
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The law demonstrated the principle of equivalency as a means to balance the scales of justice....why do we think that justice is symbolized by scales?
Because the pagan Romans invented that idea.  What language, do you think, gave us the word 'equity'?

The language might have provide the word but certainly not the concept.  (Ex 21:23, 24; Deut 19:18-21; Lev 24:19, 20)

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Can I ask, who is feeding you Biep? Do you have a global brotherhood that believes the same as you do?
The Bible is, through the Holy Spirit and secondarily through many sisters and brothers God gave me.  I try to be a faithful slave to them as they are to me, as God commanded us.  After all, only together we can understand the fullness of God's amazing love (Ephesians 3:18)
Now, if all the Christians in the world were all of one belief and one mind and thought on the interpretation of scripture, you might have grounds for that statement to be true. We both know that is not the case. True Christians are united in every way...the Christ cannot exist divided. (1 Cor 1:10-13) Those who were deviating by idolizing men were chastised. Look at all the "brands" of Christianity and see that all these denominations follow the teachings of a man who said..."I think". There is no room to say "I think".

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The parable of the faithful slave is just that - a parable.  Parables apply generically.  Each of us must be a wise virgin, each of us a field with good earth, each of us wheat, not tare, each of us the merchant who gladly fives up everything for the pearl.
Defanging the parable of the faithful slave would be as wrong as declaring that some specific person or group were the merchant.
Since all the parables apply to reality, I beg to differ. The meaning of the parables is not brushed off by saying that they were just illustrations....they had real meaning to real people or else why were they given?

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As I have written before, I am not a member of any church, but all over the world one finds sincere Bible students which the Holy Spirit indicates as siblings and who are willing to research, to retract wrong beliefs and adopt new ones when the Word convinces them of the truth.

And the very fact that you have no global brotherhood with whom you meet and agree in teaching and activity, makes you different from the first Christians, who had to leave their various former religious beliefs behind and come into the Christian congregation. There was only one Christianity and these were "fed" from only one source.  No one was permitted to introduce their own ideas...if they did, they were shunned. (2 John 8-11) Anyone not living up to the teachings of the Christ was expelled. (1 Cor 5:9-13) What would happen today if that rule was imposed in the churches? How many would still be sitting there in the pews? How many are guilty of breaking God's marriage and divorce laws, alone? (Matt 5:32) Adultery was punishable by death.

Apostasy was foretold and that is exactly what took over with the birth of Catholicism. Apostasy weakened the church and made it receptive to the false teachings of pagan Roman beliefs which were given a "Christianized" meaning. People have watered down God's laws to suit themselves. They will pay for that.

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You really think that could be done the world over under persecution and opposition by mere men?
No, I am afraid it goes beyond 'mere men'.
That is why you don't see it as an activity of most churches. It is an operation of God's spirit and it wasn't to be just a local activity...it was to be preached as one message of salvation to "the entire inhabited earth". (Matt 24:14)

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Sorry, but 'Christendom' is nothing but a grab bag of good, bad and ugly.  It is no useful category, only useful for guilt by association.  As I said, look at e.g. the Mennonites.  Is their blazon tainted because some post-modern church preaches that God is only a nice feeling in our hearts?
If 'Christendom' includes all those who believe in the truth of the NT, then it includes the JW.  If it refers to Trinitarians - would you claim that Arians are not divided?

'Christendom' is the product of the foretold apostasy. And you are right...it is guilt by association. It is God himself who tells his people to "get out of her". (Rev 18:4, 5)

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But - I just looked around a bit on the Internet - not a very effective one, it seems.  I think I saw that Charismatic churches are growing faster with less effort.
It's not about the numbers Biep. "Few" are on the road to life, remember? (Matt 7:13, 14) And they were to be hated and persecuted. (Please Google persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses)

Jesus said to look at the "fruits" of his disciples. They would have "love among themselves" and they would be global preachers. This is not just foreign missionary work; it is preaching to all without prejudice. To whom did Jesus and his apostles preach and how? (Matt 10:11-15; Acts 20:20) It was those who already considered themselves to be God's people. He preached in his own home territory to his own people. How many today do that?

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When disaster strikes, Jehovah's people are often first on the scene, supporting their brothers, rebuilding their homes and lives and offering real support, both material and spiritual.
Matthew 5:46.  It is the next step that would prove read Christian love.
Yes, and that is why we also go to help others when our brothers' needs are met. (Gal 6:9, 10)

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He had to be infinite to pay the price.
Who said?

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The Law for theft, which Jesus came to fulfil, and verses such as Matthew 16:25 that show that creation as a whole is not sufficient price.

Where does it say Jesus had to pay the life of Adam?

"It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Cor 15:45; Gen 2:7)

Jesus is called "the last Adam" because he paid the price of Adam's sin with his own perfect life.

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Do you not understand the basis of the ransom Biep? It is a fundamental teaching in Christianity, yet how many people really understand how it works?
I like to think I do.  The ransom for the life of a criminal equals whatever the other party requests (e.g. Exodus 21:30).  But Jesus was, of course, a Ransom in several ways.
He paid a price that no other human could. (Psalm 49:7, 8.)

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It's like the kingdom....what is it?
Those who are reborn know, those who aren't will never know until it is too late.

LOL...nice dodge.  :D Can you be more specific? Surely it is not a difficult question....?

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He had to be God to free from the Law (Romans 7:3).  The covenant was with God, so God had to die to free us from it.  This too I have explained in detail before.
If Jesus weren't God, the old covenants would still be in full force and condemn us, as Colossians 2:14 would have been false.

How so? Once Christ had fulfilled the law, it was no longer necessary. The basis for everlasting forgiveness had been made....one sacrifice for all time; no need for the blood of animals any longer.

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It was God who freed his people from the "curse" of the law by sending his son to pay the ransom for them.

Which would make Him a moral monster.  He could have paid the price Himself, yet abused the love of a (finite, no less) innocent third person.  Morally, that would put Jesus way above the Father.

What ?? We have a volunteer here who loved mankind because he was instrumental in their formation. (Prov 8:22, 30) You are devaluing the love of the Christ as a reflection of his Father's love. (John 3:16)

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It would be like accepting that ones child jumps in front of one to receive a blow my enemy wants to deal me - only then if I were infinitely powerful, and my son weren't.

Do you have Jehovah's word for that? That is pure human reasoning gone awry.

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Faithless rebels will keep you deceived.
Until one puts God and His Word above any other authority, and uses it to test everything and only keep the good.
Exactly...but you have to know how many people are fooled into believing that they are on the right road, when in actual fact, they are traveling with the "many" on the road to destruction.

The criteria is there in the scriptures for all to see. Who are living up to it today? Not the "many" and not the ones who just call themselves "Christians". (Matt 7:21-23)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 10:10:06 pm by Jem »
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #238 on: July 22, 2013, 09:08:46 pm »

Jesus said to look at the "fruits" of his disciples. They would have "love among themselves"


Just wanted to add:



“They refuse any form of violence and without rebelling put up with the many trials inflicted on them because of their beliefs . . . How different the world would be if we all woke up one morning firmly decided not to take up arms again, whatever the cost or the reason, just like Jehovah’s Witnesses!” - “Andare Alle Genti”



“I have come to the conclusion that if Jehovah’s Witnesses were the only ones living on the earth, wars would cease to exist, and the only duties of the policemen would be to control traffic and to issue passports.” - “Gyűrű”



“Suffice it to say that if all the world lived by the creed of the Jehovah Witnesses there would be an end of bloodshed and hatred, and love would reign as king!”- “The Sacramento Union”



“The work of Jehovah’s Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practised by Jesus and his disciples . . . All are brothers.” - “The Encyclopedia Canadiana”



The Encyclopedia of Early Christianity states: “The early church saw itself as one new humanity in which previously hostile groups, Jews and Gentiles, could live together in one body of peace.” Jehovah’s Witnesses also are a peace-loving international brotherhood—truly a new world society. (Ephesians 2:11-18; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 3:13) When the chief security officer of the Pretoria Show Grounds in South Africa saw how Witnesses of all races met there peaceably as convention delegates, he said: “Everyone was and is courteous, people speaking nicely to one another, the attitude displayed the past few days—it all testifies to the calibre of the members of your society, and that all live together like one happy family.” - “They Keep On Walking in the Truth”

1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Snoochies

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #239 on: July 22, 2013, 09:19:06 pm »
5 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them.

The Beatitudes

He said:


3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and Light

13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Murder

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Adultery

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce

31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths

33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Eye for Eye

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Be a great world if we could all do the above.  :(

Father forgive me, I am a sinner.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 09:20:41 pm by Snoochies »
"God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear." Psalm 46:1-2

* Forum members please note:- Just because I ask you lots of questions, this does not mean I know something better. I am merely asking to seek clarification and arrive at truth the best I can