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Biep

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #285 on: July 24, 2013, 12:36:06 pm »
Quote from: Biep
Where does it say Jesus had to pay the life of Adam?
"It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Cor 15:45; Gen 2:7)
That is a far cry from a statement that Jesus had to pay the perfect physical life Adam forfeited.  I am asking for a reference to that doctrine - I suppose you read it in the Bible somewhere.  After all, it contradicts the plain message of John 19:28-30 that all was completed before Jesus died physically.
Quote from: John 19:28-30
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said, I thirst.  Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it on hyssop, and put it to his mouth.  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is accomplished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus is called "the last Adam" because he paid the price of Adam's sin with his own perfect life.
And that is a different statement again.  The price of the sin was infinite, the spiritual life Adam lost that day was finite - and the physical life he lost centuries later was even less valuable.
I agree Jesus' sacrifice covers the price of Adam's sin - and mine, and yours.  (By the way, this means that if Adam accepts the offer, he will be saved, because his sins are payed for.)
On this statement, an infinite ransom is needed.  The theft must be repaid and then some, and then there is the sacrilege.  Which fits with the given that the whole of creation does not suffice as a ransom.
Quote
He paid a price that no other human could. (Psalm 49:7, 8.)
Because He had that infinite worth.

Quote from: Jem
It's like the kingdom....what is it?
Quote from: Biep
Those who are reborn know, those who aren't will never know until it is too late.
Quote from: Jem
LOL...nice dodge.  :D Can you be more specific? Surely it is not a difficult question....?
It wasn't meant as a dodge.  About the legal side I have already written a bit, showing how the wine Jesus drank after all was accomplished meant He had entered His Kingdom.  I am in it, as are all those who have been accepted and sealed with the Holy Spirit.
I thought you were asking about what it is like to be in the Kingdom, to have the Spirit procaiming one a son of the Most High, to live in the wonderful light of Christ - that is something to be experienced, I am afraid.  I can tell you it is definitely worth it, though!  Together with this comes the process of yielding to the reign of Christ in my heart.
There are only two Kingdoms (Colossians 1:13) - in which one are you?

Quote from: Biep
He had to be God to free from the Law (Romans 7:3).  The covenant was with God, so God had to die to free us from it.  This too I have explained in detail before.
If Jesus weren't God, the old covenants would still be in full force and condemn us, as Colossians 2:14 would have been false.
Quote from: Jem
How so? Once Christ had fulfilled the law, it was no longer necessary.
He had fulfilled the Law, but not yet freed us from it.  Romans 7 explains it admirably.
  • Know you not, brothers, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
    (The covenant of the Law places the people in a marriage relationship with God - Jeremiah 2:2; Ezekiel 16:8; 23:4, et cetera.)
  • For the woman which has an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
    (Those under the law are the wife; God is the Husband.  So if God dies, the woman will be free.)
  • So then if, while her husband lives, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
    (People cannot simply enter into another covenant until the first has legally ended.  And it only ends with death.)
  • Why, my brothers, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit to God.
    (Through the dying of Jesus this has in fact happened - we are dead to the Law; the covenant is powerless - Colossians 2:14.  This is completely independent of His paying for our sins.
    Remark that "θανατόω", 'to die', also means 'by death to be liberated from the bond of anything, literally to be made dead in relation to (something)' (Thayer).
    Therefore we are free to enter into this New Covenant, only in which the price paid by Jesus can profit us.
    )
  • For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit to death.
    (The law of the first husband brought death to us.)
  • But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
    (We are free, but to a goal.)
Verse 4 is especially rich.  We are to marry Jesus, and that fertile marriage will bring forth God's fruits.

Quote from: Jem
It was God who freed his people from the "curse" of the law by sending his son to pay the ransom for them.
Quote from: Biep
Which would make Him a moral monster.  He could have paid the price Himself, yet abused the love of a (finite, no less) innocent third person.  Morally, that would put Jesus way above the Father.
Quote from: Jem
What ?? We have a volunteer here who loved mankind because he was instrumental in their formation. (Prov 8:22, 30)
Leaving aside the unwarranted unification of lady Wisdom with Jesus here, I fully agree that under your interpretation Jesus is exceedingly good - as He is under mine.
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You are devaluing the love of the Christ as a reflection of his Father's love. (John 3:16)
There would be no love from the father's side.  We know what love is - the Bible spells it out.  The greatest love is to give ones life for others (Romans 5:7-8).  If Jesus is not God, then those verses are nonsense: "Giving ones life is a sacrificial act rarely seen, but God showed His love by sending someone else to suffer on our behalf."  Right.
Neither the argument structure (jumping from giving ones own life to God giving someone else's life), nor the message make sense if Jesus is not God.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 01:48:43 am by Biep »
-- Biep
I tend to post and run, but always hope to return eventually.  Don't hold your breath, though.

I have very little energy at the moment, so don't expect much of me right now.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #286 on: July 25, 2013, 11:08:44 am »
While it I'd agree that things have changed since Christ's death in terms of sacrifices etc, I'd also point out that nowhere in the OT do we find God's people worshiping anyone but YHWH alone. And so I guess there's that to consider.

If by God's people you mean Israel, they worshiped pagan deities as well, as we know from the OT.
And they suffered dearly for it.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 09:03:49 pm by Maxximiliann »
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #287 on: July 25, 2013, 11:12:01 am »
That being said, while I'd agree that the word Trinity does not appear anywhere in the Bible, I'd also point-out that the Bible does not seem to support Trinitarian worship either. ie. true worship was not subject to a Trinitarian worship in the OT which was exclusively monotheistic in nature. And so for me, I find both the label and supporting evidence to be missing.

One thing that remains the same in either testament I doubt anyone would dispute: God is the proper object of worship.
I'm puzzled. If you believe this to be true, why do you worship Jesus as God instead of The Father, Jehovah God?

That's a fair question.

Though I wouldn't say I worship Jesus as God "instead" of The Father God, for to me they are consubstantial.  There is one God to whom all worship is directed to, and this God so far as I can tell, is a trinitarian god-head.  As I have detailed out before, each person has a role in worship, for instance via prayer:

As Christians we are to be filled with the Spirit (Acts), which will intercede on our behalf given we do not know what to pray for (Romans 8:26, John 14:16). Praying with this power of the Holy Spirit within us (Jude 1:20, Ephesians 6:18) might be seen as mediated by Jesus, such to translate our prayers into the language of God, given that Jesus is the Word (John 1:1). Therefore:
 
- The Holy Spirit empowers and elevates our prayers (as cited scripture above)
- Jesus mediates prayer by making accessible to the Father (John 14:6, John 10:9, Ephesians 2:18)
- The Father then answers the prayer (Matthew 7:7, Psalm 34:4, Isaiah 30:19, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13, John 15:7, 1 John 5:14)
 
All through one God (1 John 5:20, John 14:9, 1 John 1:2).

I think the Trinitarian setup is explanatorily powerful, if not quite ingenious. The way the Bible alludes to the Trinity looks to be in terms of a logical procession of rank, especially in terms of prayer: (1) Pray to the Father (2) through the Son (3) empowered by the Holy Spirit. In essence, there is a logical boundary to the causal chain- prayers don’t just “randomly float” to some person of the Trinity, rather roles are logically defined. Prayer performed then in this way, necessarily activates all three members of the Trinity such to worship the complete Godhead.
If you could clarify for me, then, who hears the prayer?
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Biep

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #288 on: July 29, 2013, 08:32:44 am »
The question whether one perfect physical human life was all payment needed for all our sins is of fundamental importance - arguably even more so than the Trinity.
Therefore I have started a new thread, where it can be discussed apart from other considerations.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 02:32:58 pm by Biep »
-- Biep
I tend to post and run, but always hope to return eventually.  Don't hold your breath, though.

I have very little energy at the moment, so don't expect much of me right now.

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Stephen

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #289 on: July 29, 2013, 08:43:50 am »
If you could clarify for me, then, who hears the prayer?

Sorry Maxx, almost missed this!

Well, they all literally would hear the prayer, necessarily.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #290 on: July 29, 2013, 09:09:22 pm »
If you could clarify for me, then, who hears the prayer?

Sorry Maxx, almost missed this!

Well, they all literally would hear the prayer, necessarily.


No worries! :)


Problem is, Psalm 65:2 explicitly states only The Father, Jehovah God hears - and, consequently, responds to - prayers. (Compare with Psalm 145:18; Deuteronomy 4:7; 1 Kings 18:36)
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Asking_A_Question

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #291 on: July 29, 2013, 09:16:40 pm »
Psalm 65.2 says God hears prayers and Jesus is God (see the OP), as is the Father and the Holy Spirit.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #292 on: July 29, 2013, 10:52:48 pm »
Psalm 65.2 says God hears prayers and Jesus is God (see the OP), as is the Father and the Holy Spirit.
You're presupposing the Athanasian Creed. Try again.
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Asking_A_Question

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #293 on: July 29, 2013, 10:56:42 pm »
Nope. I neither accept nor reject the Athanasian creed. Try again.

I'm just following the bible. :)

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #294 on: July 29, 2013, 11:24:05 pm »
I'm just following the bible.


If that's true, why do you worship Jesus as God when the Bible clearly states The Father, Jehovah, is exclusively and thoroughly God? (1 Corinthians 8:6)
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Asking_A_Question

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #295 on: July 29, 2013, 11:31:51 pm »
Well the passage either says there is "one God the Father", which I agree with since I think there is also God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, or it says there is "one God, the Father,", which I also agree with since I believe there is one God and the Father is that one God as is the Son and so is the Holy Spirit.  Nonetheless, I'm glad you brought that text up!

"there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him." (NWT)

Notice the phraseology of 1 Cor. 8.6, "one God...one Lord..."

Let's look at Deut. 6.4 (LXX): ...κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν κύριος εἷς ἐστιν (transliterated, kurios ho theos hemon kurios heis estin.

Now look at the Greek of 1 Cor. 8.6:
ἀλλ᾿ ἡμῖν εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατὴρ
   ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν,
καὶ εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς
   δι᾿ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι᾿ αὐτοῦ.
Or, transliterated:
all' hemin heis theos ho pater
   ex hou ta panta kai hemeis heis auton,
kai heis kurious Iesous Christos
   di hou ta panta kai hemeis di autou.
And estin is carried over from verse 5.

Thus, we see Paul use all of the words of the shema but rearrange it to include Jesus.  Hence, Paul is taking the most monotheistic passage that talks about Israel's one true God and saying both the Father and Jesus belong in there.  Therefore, Paul is saying that Jesus is God while not saying that Jesus is another god, but the same God as the Father, yet they are separate.  With all of that in mind, 1 Cor. 8.5-6 is another passage that shows that Jesus is God.

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veka

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #296 on: July 29, 2013, 11:32:33 pm »
Daniel 7 is extremely intriguing. G. K. Beale mentions that the rabbis sometimes called God the "cloud rider". In the OT, it is only God who travels on the clouds (e.g. 2 Sam. 22:10-12; Job 22:14; Pss. 97:2-5; 104:3; Jer. 4:13; Nah. 1:3). Against this background, it is curious that the one like a Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven (v. 13). It is also worth mentioning that, according to Beale, one major version of the LXX (the OG) depicts the Son of Man as a deity like the Ancient of Days.

When reading Isaiah 9:6, it is almost impossible not to see a reference to Daniel's Son of Man. "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (ESV)

St. John portrays Jesus as appearing as "one like a son of man" (Rev. 1:13), clear reference to Daniel 7, and then describes him with a description of the Ancient of Days: "The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow." (ESV)

Matthew 26:63-66 is interesting in this context.

63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven." 65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. 66 What is your judgment?" They answered, "He deserves death."

When Jesus identified himself as the Son of Man before the Sanhedrin, he was immediately accused of blasphemy. Like these Jews, many today do not know who Jesus is.
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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veka

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #297 on: July 29, 2013, 11:34:25 pm »
If that's true, why do you worship Jesus as God when the Bible clearly states The Father, Jehovah, is exclusively and thoroughly God? (1 Corinthians 8:6)

If you are implying that 1 Corinthians 8:6 proves that only the Father is God, then, by the same logic, we must conclude that Father is not Lord since Jesus Christ is the only Lord.
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #298 on: July 29, 2013, 11:40:39 pm »
I think there is also God the Son and God the Holy Spirit
Prove the reality of these mythical figures with Scripture.
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #299 on: July 29, 2013, 11:46:46 pm »
If that's true, why do you worship Jesus as God when the Bible clearly states The Father, Jehovah, is exclusively and thoroughly God? (1 Corinthians 8:6)

If you are implying that 1 Corinthians 8:6 proves that only the Father is God, then, by the same logic, we must conclude that Father is not Lord since Jesus Christ is the only Lord.




The Bible characterizes Nebuchadnezzar as "king of kings." (Daniel 2:37) By your logic, this means Christ cannot be "king of kings" referred to at Revelation 17:14. It must, necessarily, be Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon.

Nevermind the fact that your exegesis is anti Christ's own words at Matthew 11:27. (Compare with John 13:3 and 1 Peter 3:22)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 11:59:45 pm by Maxximiliann »
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8