General Discussion

Choose Your Own Topic

Read 93135 times

anuts

  • **
  • 606 Posts
  • Let's suppose there are no hypotheticals.
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #555 on: August 02, 2013, 09:37:23 pm »
Tell me, please, what is collateral damage?

Murder is a legal term whose implication rests on intent. It's not even a legal description on the manner of which one becomes deceased (that word is homicide). The euphemism "collateral damage" is precisely used when the intent is absent and in time of war.
I almost washed my car today. Therefore, it almost rained.

Whatever happens next; do that.

The single greatest contributor to humor is the man who takes himself too serious.

1

Maxximiliann

  • ***
  • 1418 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #556 on: August 02, 2013, 09:48:09 pm »
Quote from: Jem
Can you find a scripture that says Christ was raised in a body of flesh.
You've misunderstood the significance of the word "flesh" in the NT.
Argumentum ignoratio elenchi. Please stay in context.


Quote from: Jem
Whilst you are looking for scriptures that support Jesus' return to heaven as a man
Quote
I've already responded to this in #415 in this thread. Have you read it?
Your exegesis is contradicts Scripture for "flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom." (1 Corinthians 15:50) Or are you trying to claim God is a flesh-and-blood man? lol :D
Quote from: Jem
God produced a son
Quote
In the Bible the word is beget: you shouldn't alter the Bible to suit your own prejudice.

Falsum crimen de fallacia. The definition of "beget" is "
to produce." Try again.
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

2

Asking_A_Question

  • Guest
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #557 on: August 02, 2013, 09:51:42 pm »
That didn't interact with the fact of the matter at all.  The fact is that the word means bodily resurrection. 
Even if what you claim is true, does the term specify a flesh-and-blood body or a spirit body? (1 Cor. 15:44)

"physical body" literally means a body animated by the flesh which is our human nature.  "spiritual body" simply means one animated by the spirit.  For instance, the manna is called "spiritual food" using the same word but it doesn't mean that ate immaterial food since that wouldn't make any sense.  In fact, in 1 Cor. 15 Paul is showing the continuity between the naturally animated body and the spiritually animated body which shows it's a bodily resurrection!

3

Asking_A_Question

  • Guest
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #558 on: August 02, 2013, 09:53:03 pm »
As to 1 Cor. 15.50, I went over this earlier and you guys just ignored it but now you are trying to proof text again with.  By "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God", Paul is using a well known Jewish idiom.  "flesh and blood" means our fallen human nature.  Thus, it doesn't disprove a bodily resurrection.

4

Maxximiliann

  • ***
  • 1418 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #559 on: August 02, 2013, 09:56:33 pm »
Tell me, please, what is collateral damage?

Murder is a legal term whose implication rests on intent. It's not even a legal description on the manner of which one becomes deceased (that word is homicide). The euphemism "collateral damage" is precisely used when the intent is absent and in time of war.
But the result remains the same, the killing of an innocent which, per God's law, is the very definition of murder:"There are six things that Jehovah does hate; yes, seven are things detestable to his soul: [] hands that are shedding innocent blood." - Proverbs 6:16,17 (Bracket mine.)


“When YOU spread out YOUR palms, I hide my eyes from YOU. Even though YOU make many prayers, I am not listening; with bloodshed YOUR very hands have become filled. Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the badness of YOUR dealings from in front of my eyes; cease to do bad.” - Isaiah 1:15,16


“Murderers [] their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur.” - Revelation 21:8 (Bracket mine.)


"We [sedulous disciples of Christ] do not wage warfare." - 2 Corinthians 10:3 (Bracket mine.)


"Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah." (Romans 12:19)








“If anyone makes the statement: ‘I love God,’ and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar.” (1 John 4:20)


"The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which YOU have heard from [the] beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother." - 1 John 3:10-12


“By this we have come to know love, because that one surrendered his soul for us; and we are under obligation to surrender [our] souls for [our] brothers.” - 1 John 3:16


“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are [] enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies [] and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.” - Galatians 5:19-21 (Bracket mine.)


“Show out of [your] fine conduct [your] works with a mildness that belongs to wisdom. But if YOU have [] ** contentiousness ** in YOUR hearts, do not be bragging and lying against the truth. This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is [the] earthly, animal, demonic. For where [] ** contentiousness ** [is], there disorder and every vile thing are." - James 3:13-16 (Brackets and emphasis mine.)






"The things proceeding out of the mouth come out of the heart, and those things defile a man. For example, out of the heart come wicked reasonings, ** murders **, adulteries, fornications, thieveries, false testimonies, blasphemies. These are the things defiling a man." - Matthew 15:18-20 (Emphasis mine.)


“They [soldiers and their supporters] publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.” - Titus 1:16 (Bracket mine.)


“Although [YOU] know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things [murders] are deserving of death, [YOU] [] consent with those practicing them.” - Romans 1:32 (Brackets mine.)

1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

5

Maxximiliann

  • ***
  • 1418 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #560 on: August 02, 2013, 10:01:23 pm »
That didn't interact with the fact of the matter at all.  The fact is that the word means bodily resurrection. 
Even if what you claim is true, does the term specify a flesh-and-blood body or a spirit body? (1 Cor. 15:44)

"physical body" literally means a body animated by the flesh which is our human nature.  "spiritual body" simply means one animated by the spirit.  For instance, the manna is called "spiritual food" using the same word but it doesn't mean that ate immaterial food since that wouldn't make any sense.  In fact, in 1 Cor. 15 Paul is showing the continuity between the naturally animated body and the spiritually animated body which shows it's a bodily resurrection!
Wow, that sure was some fancy (and mendacious) legerdemain. Small problem, how does any of this change the fact that "flesh and blood (IOW, mortal, human bodies) cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" in heaven? (1 Cor. 15:50) (Parenthesis mine.)

« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 10:03:50 pm by Maxximiliann »
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

6

Asking_A_Question

  • Guest
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #561 on: August 02, 2013, 10:05:04 pm »
Wow, that sure was some fancy (and mendacious) legerdemain. Small problem, how does any of this change the fact that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" in heaven? (1 Cor. 15:50)

First, good job not interacting with any of what I said.  Second, I already told you that "flesh and blood" simply means fallen human nature.  Thus, our fallen human nature cannot inherit the kingdom of God and I completely agree with that.  Thus, Paul is saying that ultimately when we have our resurrection bodies we will no longer have our fallen human natures animating those bodies.  Hence, this in no way weighs against a bodily resurrection at all. 

7

Maxximiliann

  • ***
  • 1418 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #562 on: August 02, 2013, 10:08:36 pm »
Wow, that sure was some fancy (and mendacious) legerdemain. Small problem, how does any of this change the fact that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" in heaven? (1 Cor. 15:50)

Second, I already told you that "flesh and blood" simply means fallen human nature.
Argumentum assertio. Prove you claim in context. Prove Paul doesn't mean exactly what he's plainly saying.

1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

8

anuts

  • **
  • 606 Posts
  • Let's suppose there are no hypotheticals.
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #563 on: August 02, 2013, 10:12:50 pm »
Why would the spirit of Christ have a wound? And how would Thomas be able to then "touch" it?
I almost washed my car today. Therefore, it almost rained.

Whatever happens next; do that.

The single greatest contributor to humor is the man who takes himself too serious.

9

Maxximiliann

  • ***
  • 1418 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #564 on: August 02, 2013, 10:23:09 pm »
Why would the spirit of Christ have a wound? And how would Thomas be able to then "touch" it?
Argumentum reductio ad absurdum. Just as previous messengers from Jehovah God, Christ materialized a human body. In fact, he materialized on various occasions taking on different appearances which explains why his disciples wouldn't immediately recognize him. It also explains why nobody else noticed the wounds he had suffered from being tortured and murdered on a torture stake. These other bodies simply did not have them.
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

10

Asking_A_Question

  • Guest
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #565 on: August 02, 2013, 10:27:15 pm »
Wow, that sure was some fancy (and mendacious) legerdemain. Small problem, how does any of this change the fact that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" in heaven? (1 Cor. 15:50)

Second, I already told you that "flesh and blood" simply means fallen human nature.
Argumentum assertio. Prove you claim in context. Prove Paul doesn't mean exactly what he's plainly saying.

Sure, I don't mind doing that, but to understand what Paul is "plainly saying" one must investigate what he means by his terms.  Thus, just saying it's plain that "flesh and blood" means body does nothing since that's reading your views into it.  Hence, both have a burden of proof.

First, let's look at 1 Cor. 15.50, "Now this is what I am saying, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."  Notice that the last clause is in parallel to the first.  Thus, he's say perishable things do not inherit imperishable.  Hence, our bodies as they are now will not inherit the kingdom of God.  However, Jesus wasn't raised (and we won't be raised) in our bodies how they are right now, but in our glorified, imperishable bodies.  Therefore, this fits with the rest of the chapter.

Also notice the continuity of bodies in 1 Cor. 15.53.  The perishable puts on the imperishable body.  The mortal body puts on the immortal body.  It's not that we lose our bodies and become body-less, but that they are transformed as 1 Cor. 15.50 indicates.

Quote from: E.P. Sanders
The degree to which he thought of 'transformation', rather than either disembodiment or resuscitation, can be seen in his discussion of 'putting on' immortality. Thinking of those who would still be alive when the Lord returned, he wrote that the 'perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality'. This would fulfill the Scripture, 'Death is swallowed up in victory.' (1 Cor. 15:53 f.). He used the same imagery in 2 Corinthians 5. The living are in an 'earthly tent', and they wish not to be 'unclothed', but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life' (1 Cor. 5:4). The metaphor changes from 'tent' to 'clothing', but the meaning is nevertheless clear. Immortality is 'put on' and replaces mortality. Paul was not thinking of an interior soul which escapes its mortal shell and floats free, nor of new life being breathed into the same body, but again of transformation, achieved by covering mortality with immortality, which then 'swallows' it.

Quote from: N.T. Wright
Why then does he say 'flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom'? Ever since the second century doubters have used this clause to question whether Paul really believed in the resurrection of the body. In fact, the second half of verse 50 already explains, in Hebraic parallelism with the first half, more or less what he means, as Paul's regular use of 'flesh' would indicate: 'flesh and blood' is a way of referring to ordinary, corruptible, decaying human existence. It does not simply mean, as it has so often been taken to mean, 'physical humanity' in the normal modern sense, but 'the present physical humanity (as opposed to the future), which is subject to decay and death.' The referent of the phrase is not the presently dead but the presently living, who need not to be raised but to be changed; and this brings us back to the dual focus of verses 53 and 54. Both categories of humans need to acquire the new, transformed type of body.

Quote from: Craig Blomberg
'Flesh and blood' in verse 50 was a stock idiom in Jewish circles for a 'mere mortal' and does not contradict what Paul has already stressed, that resurrection experience is a bodily one.

Quote from: Pheme Perkins
a Semitic expression for human being (as in Gal. 1:16). It often appears in contexts that stress creatureliness and mortality

Quote from: C.K. Barrett
The Semitic word-pair 'flesh and blood' is 'only applied to living persons; the words flesh as well as blood exclude an application of the word-pair to the dead.' In the parallel line, corruption is used as an abstract noun instead of a concrete, for 'corpses in decomposition.' Dr. Jeremias sums up: 'The two lines of verse 50 are contrasting men of flesh and blood on the one hand, and corpses in decomposition on the other. In other words, the first line refers to those who are alive at the parousia, the second line to those who died before the parousia. The parallelism is thus not synonymous, but synthetic and the meaning of verse 50 is: neither the living nor the dead can take part in the Kingdom of God--as they are.'

11

anuts

  • **
  • 606 Posts
  • Let's suppose there are no hypotheticals.
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #566 on: August 02, 2013, 10:34:17 pm »
Why would the spirit of Christ have a wound? And how would Thomas be able to then "touch" it?
Argumentum reductio ad absurdum. Just as previous messengers from Jehovah God, Christ materialized a human body. In fact, he materialized on various occasions taking on different appearances which explains why his disciples wouldn't immediately recognize him. It also explains why nobody else noticed the wounds he had suffered from being tortured and murdered on a torture stake. These other bodies simply did not have them.

Your introductory (yet incessant) use of Latin is cute and noted. Unfortunately, if you took the time to notice the question marks at the end of my two sentences it would show that they weren't arguments; instead inquiries. Honest ones at that. I'm trying to understand your position and claims. They're strange and very unique. Even interesting.

Maybe your next response will have some more Latin in it...?? I await it with eager anticipation. Thanks in advance.
I almost washed my car today. Therefore, it almost rained.

Whatever happens next; do that.

The single greatest contributor to humor is the man who takes himself too serious.

12

Jem

  • ***
  • 4509 Posts
  • Avid JW Bible Student
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #567 on: August 02, 2013, 10:42:48 pm »
Quote from: Jem
Can you find a scripture that says Christ was raised in a body of flesh.
You've misunderstood the significance of the word "flesh" in the NT.

Have I? Since when is Jesus' "flesh" on a par with that of sinful humans? Jesus had no sin in his physical body. What he sacrificed was not taken back. His body was transformed into a body suitable for life in heaven, just as his disciples of the heavenly calling were promised. Their flesh WAS carnal and imperfect, yet they will be with Christ in heaven, immortal and incorruptible, like he is.

Quote
4561 (sarks) is generally negative, referring to making decisions (actions) according to self – i.e. done apart from faith (independent from God's inworking). Thus what is "of the flesh (carnal)" is by definition displeasing to the Lord – even things that seem "respectable!" In short, flesh generally relates to unaided human effort, i.e. decisions (actions) that originate from self or are empowered by self. This is carnal ("of the flesh") and proceeds out of the untouched (unchanged) part of us – i.e. what is not transformed by God. from http://biblesuite.com/greek/4561.htm

So it's not just a question of physical materiality and immateriality.

“Flesh” is often used in the Bible to represent man in his imperfect state, ‘conceived in sin’ as an offspring of rebellious Adam. (Psalm 51:5; Rom 5:12; Eph 2:3) In humans who are trying to serve God, ‘the spirit [impelling force emanating from the figurative heart] is eager, but the flesh is weak.’ (Matt 26:41) Within these servants of God there is a constant conflict; God’s holy spirit is a force for righteousness, but the sinful flesh continually wars against the spirit’s influence and exerts pressure to induce the individual to perform the works of the flesh. (Rom 7:18-20; Gal 5:17) The works of sinful flesh are contrasted with the fruitage of the spirit, at Galatians 5:19-23." (Insight Volumes WTS)

No one has misunderstood what "flesh" means except those who cannot see that a body of "flesh" cannot exist in heaven...not even Jesus'.
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

13

Asking_A_Question

  • Guest
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #568 on: August 02, 2013, 10:46:42 pm »
Quote from: Jem
“Flesh” is often used in the Bible to represent man in his imperfect state,

Perfect.  So man in his imperfect state (our current body) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.  I agree.  Our bodies will be transformed into our glorious resurrection bodies.  Thus, 1 Cor. 15.50 doesn't contradict a bodily resurrection. 

14

Jem

  • ***
  • 4509 Posts
  • Avid JW Bible Student
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #569 on: August 02, 2013, 10:48:08 pm »
Quote from: Jem
Whilst you are looking for scriptures that support Jesus' return to heaven as a man I've already responded to this in #415 in this thread. Have you read it?

And I just showed you how wrong it is to assume that flesh of any sort can exist in the spirit realm.
Quote
I thought my point was pretty obvious. If you're going to translate kyrios as Jehovah then you need to be consistent. Kyrios means "Lord" not Jehovah. Maxx is redefining Greek because of prejudice.
This is a typical strawman argument. No one is suggesting that kyrios in the NT should always be translated as "Jehovah". Only when there is a direct quote from the OT where the tetragrammaton was clearly in the original Hebrew text. You are missing the point on purpose.  :(

Quote
Quote from: Jem
Since you are claiming that Jesus went back to heaven with his "human nature", I am assuming that you have scriptural evidence for this?

Jesus is still fully man and fully God in heaven. Stephen saw him as the "son of man" in Acts 7:56 and Jesus is described as "like a son of man" in heaven (Rev 1:13). He will drink wine again with his disciples (Mt 26:29)
Now I have to smile at this reasoning because Stephen saw a vision of God and Jesus standing at God's right hand. If Jesus had not borne the resemblance to the Jesus that he knew, how would he have known that it was indeed the Christ? Where was the holy spirit standing at God's left? Missing again!

Drinking wine in heaven would be highly unlikely since spirit beings do not need food or liquid to maintain their lives. The wine must therefore be symbolic, just as the drinking of the cup and the eating of the bread were symbolic. Hopefully you don't subscribe to the doctrine of transubstantiation.  :-[

Quote
This being raised a spiritual body in Corinthians is a misnomer as well. The same Greek word is used in the same book for the manna from heaven which the Israelites ate in the wilderness: "spiritual food". That food had physical reality - "spiritual" relates to its miraculous or God given nature! Jesus ate food after the resurrection and his body bore the marks of his crucifixion.

Jesus body was likened to the manna as "bread from heaven". It in no way negates the transformation of a physical body into a spiritual one for those who will rule with him in heaven.

Quote
Quote from: Jem
"Few" are on the road to life...that rules out anything "mainstream". (Matt 7:13, 14)

Directed to the Jews of Jesus' day. I'll go with the multitude that "no man can number".

These are not the ones who go to heaven lapwing. The great multitude are an unnumbered group who are seen apart from the finite group of the 144,000 who are "joint heirs" with Christ in his kingdom. The great multitude are the earthly survivors of the "great tribulation" that occurs on earth as the climax of the last days, just before Armageddon. (Matt 24:21; Rev 7:4, 9, 10, 13, 14)

Quote
Quote
Nowhere is Jesus called the "only true God"...

More being overly prescriptive. Deal with the scriptures as they are and try to do proper exegesis.

LOL....exegesis is a word invented by men about doctrines invented by men.   ::)
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org