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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #585 on: August 03, 2013, 07:13:48 am »
It's not that we lose our bodies and become body-less, but that they are transformed as 1 Cor. 15.50 indicates.
Correct. Transformed such that the flesh-and-blood body is replaced by a spiritual body as per 1 Cor. 15:44.
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #586 on: August 03, 2013, 07:35:38 am »
Quote from: Maxximiliann
Argumentum ignoratio elenchi. Please stay in context.
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Zero engagement with the argument
Because it's an argumentum ignoratio elenchi fallacy. Why would I?

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Your exegesis is contradicts Scripture for "flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom." (1 Corinthians 15:50) Or are you trying to claim God is a flesh-and-blood man?[/quote
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]I agree that we need to be changed as Paul goes on to say.
We're in agreement then.
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it doesn't preclude Jesus retaining his human nature in heaven.
Please define "human nature."
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Otherwise you have to say that Stephen got it wrong at his martyrdom
Just before he was murdered, Stephen saw Jesus but identified him with the title "the Son of man", a clear allusion to Daniel 7:13,14. Are you familiar with the significance of this passage for those about to murder him?
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There were two different definitions and you chose the wrong one
Really? So God had sexual intercourse with Mary?
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We don't know that at all.
Sure we do. It's one of the reasons why his disciples never recognized him at first.
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Mostly correct Jem but maxx disagrees with you.
No, I don't.
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You only need to realise that this "heavenly calling" status is a JW control device
Argumentum assertio. Try again.
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This still ignores the fact that the inspired NT author used kyrios=Lord not the tetragrammaton.
False. Why would they rewrite the Hebrew Scriptures when quoting from it?
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You're making an assumption here to fit your JW dogma.
Tell me something, are there male and female angels in heaven? Are there little boy angels and little girl angels as portrayed in popular culture?
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JWs are human and they hold particular doctrines so they have invented doctrines haven't they?
Such as?
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That doesn't sound like impending Armageddon!
What, then, is "the great tribulation" they come out of if it's not the prelude to Armageddon?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 07:57:06 am by Maxximiliann »
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #587 on: August 03, 2013, 07:41:29 am »
Why would the spirit of Christ have a wound? And how would Thomas be able to then "touch" it?
Argumentum reductio ad absurdum. Just as previous messengers from Jehovah God, Christ materialized a human body. In fact, he materialized on various occasions taking on different appearances which explains why his disciples wouldn't immediately recognize him. It also explains why nobody else noticed the wounds he had suffered from being tortured and murdered on a torture stake. These other bodies simply did not have them.

Your introductory (yet incessant) use of Latin is cute and noted. Unfortunately, if you took the time to notice the question marks at the end of my two sentences it would show that they weren't arguments; instead inquiries. Honest ones at that. I'm trying to understand your position and claims. They're strange and very unique. Even interesting.

Maybe your next response will have some more Latin in it...?? I await it with eager anticipation. Thanks in advance.
Apologies then. I misconstrued your reply as rhetorical questions designed to advance an opposing argument.


What else do you require clarification on? :)
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #588 on: August 03, 2013, 07:55:45 am »
You hold His body was a payment.  To whom? []
To God?  Then why wouldn't Jesus have access to it?
(Bracket mine.)
So your claiming God refunded Jesus' flesh-and-blood body back to him? If that's true, how does that not mean the Adamic ransom debt remains and we're still hopelessly condemned to sin and death?
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Keith_

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #589 on: August 03, 2013, 08:09:50 am »
Being a literal person I wonder at time what exactly does it mean to say Jesus is God? Obviously Jesus wasn't all of God and didn't have access to all God's knowledge.

What about these verses?

Psalm 82:5-7
…They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken.  I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. "Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes."…

John 10:34
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?

FWIW, I know I'm not a god. I'm just asking.
Eccl.1:9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

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lapwing

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #590 on: August 03, 2013, 08:57:51 am »
Maxximiliann,

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Because it's an argumentum ignoratio elenchi fallacy. Why would I?
All you are doing is making a groundless assertion to avoid the discussion.

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Please define "human nature."
You need the practice to use a dictionary properly.

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Just before he was murdered, Stephen saw Jesus but identified him with the title "the Son of man", a clear allusion to Daniel 7:13,14. Are you familiar with the significance of this passage for those about to murder him?
Why not be straightforward and make your point?

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Really? So God had sexual intercourse with Mary?
So you don't think that "the Father" is Jesus' father? No one has said "the Father" is human.

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False. Why would they rewrite the Hebrew Scriptures when quoting from it?
Why do you refuse to accept the Bible that God has provided: the NT was written in Greek not Hebrew under God's inspiration. You are attacking God again.

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lapwing: JWs are human and they hold particular doctrines so they have invented doctrines haven't they?
Maxximiliann: Such as?
http://ministryblue.com/belief/jw.html
Note that my question here is how such a statement of faith came about. Did God send down some golden plates or was there some other process that involved human beings thinking and writing. If the latter then that is what I mean by invention (or creation).
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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veka

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #591 on: August 03, 2013, 09:34:25 am »
He said there were two kinds of bodies, the physical and the spiritual.

This is reference to 1 Corinthians 15:44, right?

First, σωμα (sōma), 'body', always implies materiality when used of persons. Second, -ικος adjectives (as opposed to – ινος adjectives) normally denote mode of existence rather than substance. Therefore, σῶμα πνευματικόν (sōma pneumatikon), 'spiritual body', does not mean a body made or composed of spirit. Rather, it refers to a physical body that belongs to the new creation as opposed to corruptible and mortal body.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 09:38:05 am by veka »
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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Asking_A_Question

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #592 on: August 03, 2013, 09:45:57 am »
It's not that we lose our bodies and become body-less, but that they are transformed as 1 Cor. 15.50 indicates.
Correct. Transformed such that the flesh-and-blood body is replaced by a spiritual body as per 1 Cor. 15:44.

You're trying to put your own spin on this. The fact of the matter is that 1 cor 15 presupposes a bodily resurrection throughout and the verses you brought up don't argue against that.

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Biep

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #593 on: August 03, 2013, 09:56:09 am »
{The issue was whether Jesus returned to heaven with his human nature}
And of course 1 Corinthians 15:50 is completely irrelevant in that context - it doesn't talk about entering heaven at all, but about getting a right to it.  Which shows that the "flesh and blood" (which indeed is taken as a grammatical singular, showing it is a metaphoric expression) is about being sinful or not.
This is in line with the use elsewhere, e.g. Galatians 5:19-21.

Quote from: Maxximiliann
nobody else noticed the wounds
Quote from: lapwing
We don't know that at all. Remember the gospels didn't record everything that was said and done as the Apostle John told us.
Indeed, see here.  I wonder what Scriptural support Maxximiliann would adduce for his bold statement - as there simply is none whatsoever.

Quote from: Jem
Drinking wine in heaven would be highly unlikely since spirit beings do not need food or liquid to maintain their lives.
This is adapting the plain meaning to fit the preconceived idea of immaterial "spirit beings".  Real wine was taken by Jesus as a symbol for the blood of the Covenant.  Now you are trying to make this a whole train of symbols: something unspecified is a symbol for wine, which then again is a symbol for the blood of the Covenant.
I have already explained that in detail before.

Quote from: lapwing
For the Lamb at the centre of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”
Lapwing,
JWs are forced to insert a mental passage about the throne of God being transferred to earth, because otherwise "the Lamb at the centre of the throne" would be too obvious a proof of Jesus' Godhood.

I have never had an answer to my question whereabouts that throne would then be (or why its appearance wouldn't cause a huge consternation).
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 01:48:15 am by Biep »
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I tend to post and run, but always hope to return eventually.  Don't hold your breath, though.

I have very little energy at the moment, so don't expect much of me right now.

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Asking_A_Question

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #594 on: August 03, 2013, 09:58:06 am »
Being a literal person I wonder at time what exactly does it mean to say Jesus is God? Obviously Jesus wasn't all of God and didn't have access to all God's knowledge.

What about these verses?

Psalm 82:5-7
…They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken.  I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. "Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes."…

John 10:34
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?

FWIW, I know I'm not a god. I'm just asking.

Well Jesus wasn't all of the Trinity if that's what you mean.  However, He is both fully God and fully man and I think the evidence bears that out (see the OP).  As to those verses, it seems pretty clear that it's not talking about actual gods in the Psalm 82 verse since they are going to die.  As to John 10, Jesus is merely quoting that verse so as to not be stoned.

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Biep

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #595 on: August 03, 2013, 10:04:30 am »
So your claiming God refunded Jesus' flesh-and-blood body back to him? If that's true, how does that not mean the Adamic ransom debt remains and we're still hopelessly condemned to sin and death?
If you owe me money, and pay it, and I then give it to you as a gift, does that mean you still owe me?

But did God request a perfect physical human life, or did He request a body?  That is the fourth notion of the meaning of the Ransom: payment for all sins; payment for Adam's sin, payment for Adam's life, and now payment for Adam's body.  Which is it?
-- Biep
I tend to post and run, but always hope to return eventually.  Don't hold your breath, though.

I have very little energy at the moment, so don't expect much of me right now.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #596 on: August 03, 2013, 10:27:38 am »
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Please define "human nature."
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You need the practice to use a dictionary properly.
Zero engagement. A clear sign you’re speaking gibberish ... again ...

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False. Why would they rewrite the Hebrew Scriptures when quoting from it?
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Why do you refuse to accept the Bible that God has provided: the NT was written in Greek not Hebrew under God's inspiration. You are attacking God again.
I do. It's known as "The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures." You should check it out sometime.
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

12

Asking_A_Question

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #597 on: August 03, 2013, 10:32:34 am »
No you don't Max because even the NWT teaches that Jesus is God (where it does not err).  Just see the OP for proof of that.

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Born Again

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #598 on: August 03, 2013, 11:06:46 am »
@Jem, there are so many wrong assumptions in your reply, that it will take me too much time to respond to them all in this thread, that would become too confusing. The best idea is to create specific topics for each of them, which i will certainly do. I will begin with this one though. You fail to disconnect Jesus from His Jewishness, and I don't suggest of course that Jesus isn't Jewish. You need to look at the eternal purpose of God in and with Christ from God standpoint in eternity past (no Jews around then), not through Jewish eys. Jesus wasn't always Jewish, you know, and we wouldn't want to confuse God's views on resurrection, with those of the Jews.

By the way, I'd like to suggest that you do an indepth study into the origins of your religion; you will find that almost all pseudo-christian religions have been created by freemasonry (yes, the mormons too), but that is an altogether different topic. Have you ever done a comparative study of masonry's teachings and those of the JWs? You will be amazed. Remember the old Egyptian winged globe on Russell's old publications? ;-)

To get you started on eternal punishment and immortality, I suggest you read this first:

https://archive.org/stream/EternalSufferingOfTheWickedAndHades/Eternal_punishment_of_the_wicked_and_hades#page/n0/mode/1up

Now of course there is a difference between refuting or disproving and testing your claims. If I want to test your movement against Scripture, I would be finished in a few seconds. The test of course would be 'what place does Jesus' person and work have in the teachings of the JWs'? The name Jehovah's Witnesses itself is already enough to decide the matter. Since Jesus plainly told the disciples : 'You will be My witnesses' (Acts 1:8]. So if we need a different name then the name used for the believers in Scripture (such as 'christians' - Acts 11:26, 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16), then it should at least have to be something like 'Christ Witnesses', and not Jehovah's Witnesses. All stuff for fresh threads perhaps, but I see there is a lot of work to be done here. I'll see you later no doubt.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 11:32:49 am by Born Again »

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lapwing

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #599 on: August 03, 2013, 11:28:03 am »
Maxximiliann,
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Please define "human nature."
This is not a discussion to engage with. You can look this up yourself. If you mean something else then say what you mean.

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Why do you refuse to accept the Bible that God has provided: the NT was written in Greek
This is referring to the Greek NT on which translations depend.
Which bit of "no Greek NT manuscript contains the tetragrammaton" don't you understand?

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I do. It's known as "The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures." You should check it out sometime.
Ah yes the "excellent" NWT

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Continuing on in the NWT Foreword:

To avoid overstepping the bounds of a translator into the field of exegesis, we have tried to be most cautious about rendering the divine name, always carefully considering the Hebrew Scriptures. We have looked for some agreement with us by the Hebrew versions that we consulted to confirm our own rendering. Thus, out of 237 times that we have rendered the divine name in the body of our version, there are only 2 instances where we have no support or agreement. (Page 20)

Although this might sound very credible to the untrained ear, keep in mind what is actually being said. We are again talking about the 237 insertions of the Divine Name into the New Testament. The New Testament (with the possible exception of Matthew) was originally written in Greek. The support for their novel addition to the New Testament however, they say they found by "agreement with the Hebrew versions that we consulted". A sharp individual may quickly realize that there is no "Hebrew version" of the New Testament as an original language manuscript. What are these "Hebrew versions" that supported their insertion of the Divine Name? The original 1950 version NWT came with an abundance of footnotes that designated the various manuscripts that supported their readings. The Hebrew sources are designated in the NWT by the letter "J". When one is citing manuscript support, it is customary to use the accepted letter designation for each manuscript. Following are the images of the pages of the 1950 NWT that explained exactly what those Hebrew versions were.




or manuscript support for the sacred Name in the New Testament, the New World Translation Committee could only cite "J" sources. No ancient manuscript would support their translation. 

Note, that all of the "J" sources themselves are all translations (read: uninspired according to the NWT committee) of the Greek New Testament into Hebrew. With respect to the Divine Name, they all disagree sharply with the Greek New Testament that we have today. Many of them were made by Jesuit priests, which is a strange source for the Watchtower to be preferring over the oldest Greek manuscripts in existence, since they have always held to the complete apostasy of the Roman Church.. The bottom line is this: The distinctive of the Divine Name in the NWT is a clear violation of laws of hermeneutics. It places medieval translations above the oldest extant Greek manuscripts in existence. To cite "J" sources, which are not sources at all, right along with the standard textual sources, is misleading at best. At worst, it is one of the most deceptive frauds ever perpetrated upon a religious denomination. What makes it even more bizarre is that when many of these "J" sources refer to Jesus as YHWH, such as Romans 10:9,10, the NWT suddenly chooses to ignore the "J" sources and ignore the sacred Name, preferring the word "Lord" instead of Jehovah. The Greek New Testament, as well as the early church fathers bear out that YHWH can aptly be called "Lord" (Kurios) or "God" (Theos).
For one to insist that the Divine Name was once there, but has now been removed is a dangerous position. Just imagine: If we are hypothesizing that the Tetragrammaton was completely expunged from thousands of New Testament manuscripts, and blotted out from the practice of the church within a generation of the end of the apostolic era, why should we trust any thing from these horribly altered manuscripts? Everything could very well be corrupt. Moreover, if the Divine Name could be substituted in the New Testament scripture so easily, why would anyone think that YHWH was an accurate representation of the Name God revealed to Moses? With so many fewer manuscripts in existence, a far longer period between the autographs and our extant copies of the Old Testament, we could be all but positive that YHWH is likewise just an artificial substitute for whatever the real name was.

from http://neirr.org/Tetragrammaton.htm
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 07:06:48 am by lapwing »
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer