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veka

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #840 on: August 15, 2013, 05:05:46 pm »
You beg the question since you're presupposing Jesus is fully God.

Do you know what "begging the question" means?

Begging the question (Latin petitio principii, "assuming the initial point") is a type of informal fallacy in which an implicit premise would directly entail the conclusion; in other words, basing a conclusion on an assumption that is as much in need of proof or demonstration as the conclusion itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Now obviously I'm not the one begging the question since I'm simply asking you to show me, without begging the question, why "Jesus" is not more (or the most) preferable reading.

You have not yet done this.

Now, since the Jude's original manuscript is not extant we need to rely on the evidence we do have available. This evidence leads to the reasonable conclusion that Jude was inspired to write the Tetragrammaton.

Do you actually have non question begging evidence?
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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lapwing

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #841 on: August 15, 2013, 05:18:38 pm »
Quote
Now, since the Jude's original manuscript is not extant we need to rely on the evidence we do have available. This evidence leads to the reasonable conclusion that Jude was inspired to write the Tetragrammaton.

We don't have any original MSS for the OT either: you are being selective here in which scripture to believe is as written in the Bible: you accept those that fit your own dogma and reject those that don't only for that reason.
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #842 on: August 16, 2013, 06:09:55 pm »
You beg the question since you're presupposing Jesus is fully God.

Do you know what "begging the question" means?

Begging the question (Latin petitio principii, "assuming the initial point") is a type of informal fallacy in which an implicit premise would directly entail the conclusion; in other words, basing a conclusion on an assumption that is as much in need of proof or demonstration as the conclusion itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Now obviously I'm not the one begging the question since I'm simply asking you to show me, without begging the question, why "Jesus" is not more (or the most) preferable reading.

You have not yet done this.

Now, since the Jude's original manuscript is not extant we need to rely on the evidence we do have available. This evidence leads to the reasonable conclusion that Jude was inspired to write the Tetragrammaton.

Do you actually have non question begging evidence?
My statement does not beg the question since it is a fact that the original manuscripts penned by the hands of Christ's disciples are not extant. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #843 on: August 16, 2013, 06:10:24 pm »
Just take a trip in your time machine and go see it for yourself :)

Assuming you meant a trip to the past, and the reason would be that there are none at present, that is just a convoluted way of saying that God did not succeed in preserving the correct text, whereas the devil did succeed in uniformly corrupting all texts.
Which means that we only have texts of which the devil is the final redactor, and which are therefore completely unreliable.
Which means that we have no way to know whether God even led people to write any texts in the first place - it may well all have been a work of the devil from the start.

Assuming that you do not mean that, please explain what you do mean.
Strawman. Try again.
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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veka

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #844 on: August 17, 2013, 12:27:29 am »
My statement does not beg the question since it is a fact that the original manuscripts penned by the hands of Christ's disciples are not extant. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

I didn't say your statement begs the question.

Now do you actually have non question begging evidence or not?
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #845 on: August 17, 2013, 01:52:10 am »
My statement does not beg the question since it is a fact that the original manuscripts penned by the hands of Christ's disciples are not extant. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

I didn't say your statement begs the question.

Now do you actually have non question begging evidence or not?
As I've already shared and is a well established fact, the author of the Bible has had his personal name recorded profusely throughout. That he would do so here is not beyond even the slightest stretch of the imagination especially since he is directly referencing his historic acts of salvation for his people, the ancient Israelites.
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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veka

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #846 on: August 17, 2013, 02:46:04 am »
I take that "No, I don't have." Thank you.
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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veka

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #847 on: August 28, 2013, 01:53:40 pm »
Three points in John's prologue that implies the full divinity of the Logos:

(1) ἐν ἀρχῇ (en archē), 'in the beginning,' refers here not so much to the beginning of created things (as in Gen 1:1) as to a state that already existed in the beginning. One expects to read, "In the beginning ... God," but it is "the Word". The Word was before the act of creation, suggesting Logo's eternal preexistence.

(2) In the verse 3 it is revealed that "all things came into being through" the Logos, and it is emphasized that "apart from Him nothing came into being". At this point I would like to point out that there is nothing in the Greek text that necessitates the idea of Logos being a lesser intermediate agency of creation. Even though the preposition διά (dia) seems to refer to an instrumental cause, it is also used of God (the Father) in the New Testament. So for example Heb. 2:10 says that all things are through (διά) God. So also Rom. 11:36: "through (διά) Him" are all things. John 1:3 makes exactly the same statement about the Logos, who was in the beginning.

(3) The Logos was not alone in the beginning, however, but was with (the) God (ὁ θεὸς). A clear distinction is made here between the persons of Logos and God. In spite of this, as Wallace notes, the Logos belongs to the larger category known as θεός (theos), 'God', emphasizing his nature. This is consistent with the idea of Logos being an eternal, uncreated agency through whom all was created and without whom nothing was created.
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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lapwing

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #848 on: August 28, 2013, 04:11:43 pm »
+1 for the exegesis, veka
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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veka

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #849 on: August 28, 2013, 06:35:48 pm »
Thanks, lapwing. :)

I was inspired by Caragounis & Watt's article "A Grammatical Analysis of John 1.1".
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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anuts

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #850 on: August 28, 2013, 07:51:40 pm »
When considering who Jesus really is, it should be remembered that what the Bible teaches us about justice and its importance. That what is love, specifically His love, and the truth of it in such absolute quantity. About sin, and its seriousness. About salvation and the freedom from the bondage of the totality of sin from all humanity. About judgment and sacrifice and its necessity.

All of these amounts to a tall order if there's any truth behind any of it. An equation of sorts can be demonstrative and helpful. On one side you have the totality of humanity's collective sin, justice, and judgment. On the other you have His love, sacrifice, and salvation. For this equation to balance it just seems intuitive that God Himself must be the variable of sacrifice. Otherwise the whole equation seems to just crumble...
I almost washed my car today. Therefore, it almost rained.

Whatever happens next; do that.

The single greatest contributor to humor is the man who takes himself too serious.

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Jem

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #851 on: August 28, 2013, 09:19:07 pm »
When considering who Jesus really is, it should be remembered that what the Bible teaches us about justice and its importance. That what is love, specifically His love, and the truth of it in such absolute quantity. About sin, and its seriousness. About salvation and the freedom from the bondage of the totality of sin from all humanity. About judgment and sacrifice and its necessity.

All of these amounts to a tall order if there's any truth behind any of it. An equation of sorts can be demonstrative and helpful. On one side you have the totality of humanity's collective sin, justice, and judgment. On the other you have His love, sacrifice, and salvation. For this equation to balance it just seems intuitive that God Himself must be the variable of sacrifice. Otherwise the whole equation seems to just crumble...

And God is indeed "the variable of the sacrifice."

Without God providing the means to set mankind free from sin and death, there would have been no way out. The "ransom" is the price paid that is the equivalent value of what was taken. A ransom is not more that what is demanded.

The Creator of the universe cannot die. He is an immortal being, the most superior life in existence.
There was no requirement under God's law but to balance the scales of justice....eye for eye, tooth for tooth...life for life. The life of the supreme and immortal God would have been extremely overpriced in exchange for a being that was made "a little lower than angels".

What Adam lost for his children was perfect life in paradise on earth. In order to offer an equivalent life, all Jesus had to be was perfect, sinless. He did not have to BE God to do that. All he had to be was human and sinless and obedient.
 
He was the "last Adam" because he paid to God the equivalent of what the "first Adam" lost. (1 Cor 15:45)

"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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veka

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #852 on: August 29, 2013, 06:46:51 am »
The Creator of the universe cannot die.

Hi Jem. At least we agree on something! :)
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

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Jem

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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Jesus is God?
« Reply #853 on: August 29, 2013, 07:48:43 pm »
The Creator of the universe cannot die.

Hi Jem. At least we agree on something! :)

LOL   :) If only we could agree on more.  :(

Jesus could not pay the ransom if he did not truly die. He could not die if he was God. Can you not see that?

He would not have been Adam's equivalent "life for life", but something way more than the ransom demanded.

He was not God....he was 'sent by God' and as a good and obedient servant of his Father, rescued Adam's children from an endless cycle of sin and death.

Before Catholicism introduced the idea, there was no triune God. Why is it that trinities of gods are found throughout paganism, yet the other two "Abrahamic" religions have no such teaching?  :-\
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org